2009.05.08 13:00 - Narcissus

The Guardian for this meeting was Solobill Laville. The comments are by Solobill Laville.

 

Solobill Laville: Hello there, Yakuzza :)

Yakuzza Lethecus: 0hey
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am new here
Solobill Laville: Ah, well welcome!
Solobill Laville: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: thx
Solobill Laville: New to SL?
Yakuzza Lethecus: relativly
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am over a month old
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i got my groups full D:
Solobill Laville: lol...that can happen!
Solobill Laville: "curious but incompetent" ~ not a bad way to be... :)
Solobill Laville: incompentent may be a bit strong though I bet
Travieso Sella: hello
Solobill Laville: Hello, Travieso :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah it´s just that other people don´t think that i know to much when i mention names like derrida or sartre or popper or kuhn
Wol Euler: hello solo, travieso, yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello everyone
Travieso Sella: hello
Solobill Laville: That you "don't" know too much when you mention them?
Solobill Laville: Heya, Wol :)
Wol Euler: hi fefonz
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah i am scared people expect to much
Fefonz Quan: Hey Wol, Solo, Travi And Ykkiza :0
Solobill Laville: Ah... :)
Solobill Laville: Heya, Fef :)
Solobill Laville: Travieso and Yakuzza, have you been here before?
Travieso Sella: Yes.
Yakuzza Lethecus: no
Solobill Laville: ok
Wol Euler: hello scath
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi sca
Fefonz Quan: I just met Yakuzza on teh Kira cafe and told him a littel about us, but you are welcome to say more
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Yakuzza
Solobill Laville: Heya, Scath :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Solo, Travieso
arabella Ella: Hiya
Travieso Sella: hello
Solobill Laville: PaB is a group interested in some regard of exploring reality
Solobill Laville: What is really, real
Wol Euler: evening, ara.
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara
Fefonz Quan: Hey Ara :)
Solobill Laville: Ah, yes, and we record the chat sessions and post them to our wiki
Solobill Laville: so your words are recorded and shared ;)
Solobill Laville: Hiya, Ara :)
sophia Placebo: greetings
Wol Euler: hello sophia
arabella Ella: Hiy aoph
arabella Ella: soph
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey
Travieso Sella: sophi
Wol Euler grins at Solo.
Fefonz Quan: Hey Scath, Sophia
sophia Placebo: trav!
Solobill Laville: Heya, Soph :)
Solobill Laville: brb
Wol Euler: oh wow, quite a new image sophia. Nice!
sophia Placebo: thanks :))
arabella Ella: yea lovely
Fefonz Quan: some issue wa brought up in the last time workshop that i thought might be of interest to discuss here
Wol Euler: okay :)
sophia Placebo: hi again yak :) why not bring yourself to the inner circle
Fefonz Quan: it was narcissism, or should i call it spiritual narcissism
sophia Placebo: :)
Wol Euler: say more?
Fefonz Quan: we talk a lot about things around us as 'appearances' un real in a way, or at least not seperated from our mind/consciousness.
Solobill Laville: back
Travieso Sella: wb
Wol Euler: wb solo
Fefonz Quan: and this may lead to some thinking that 'it is all about me'
Fefonz Quan: 'time flows through me', 'my mind creates time', 'I am Being',
Fefonz Quan: maybe i phrase it a little roughly
arabella Ella: makes sense to me Fef ... food for thought definitely
Fefonz Quan: another angle can be 'if i clear MY karma I will be enlightnened'
Travieso Sella: I think it's interesting to think about how percieving appearances as separate from us creates a separate, dualistic ego -self. Is that what related?
Scathach Rhiadra: are we talking about navel-gazing, self-obsorption?
Fefonz Quan: yes Travi, very related
Travieso Sella: Percieving outisde objects creates ego-self
arabella Ella: but also solipsism i guess
Fefonz Quan: could you explain a little those terms Scath?
Neela Blaisdale: Hello everyone, sorry to be late:)
Fefonz Quan: but if all objects are not 'outside' but 'inside', - this is a really big fat inside
Wol Euler: hello neela, long time no see
Scathach Rhiadra: um, being overly concerned with notions of the self, how everything relates to 'me', does that make sense
Solobill Laville: Heya, Neela :)
arabella Ella: Hiya neela
Fefonz Quan: Hey Neela
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Neela
sophia Placebo: hi neela
Fefonz Quan: yes, something like that Scath.
Fefonz Quan: surely this is a wrong view, but somehow i feel the road to it can be very misleading
Wol Euler: hello mick
Scathach Rhiadra: a very easy trap to fall into:)
Fefonz Quan: Hey Mick
sophia Placebo: hi mick
arabella Ella: Hiya Mick
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Mick
Solobill Laville: Yo, Mick :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick
Mickorod Renard: helloooo everyone
Travieso Sella: I think it may be a distinction from something like conceit or egotistical selfish desire, simply a fundamental separation of the self from the world
Fefonz Quan: well, in fact this is another level Travi (i think).
Fefonz Quan: the ordinary view of the self is as a seperate unit from teh world.
Travieso Sella: Yes.
Fefonz Quan: In some practices and views we discuss here, we try to transcend that seperation.
Solobill Laville: WE should perhaps be trying to transcend the distinction
Fefonz Quan: in a way we try to reuify the self and the world
Fefonz Quan: reunify*
Fefonz Quan: and this reunification arrow might point in the wrong direction ;-)
Solobill Laville: I am imagining a molecule of water...
Solobill Laville: falling from a rain cloud
Solobill Laville: aware of being "water"
Solobill Laville: then hitting the ocean
Solobill Laville: still aware of being a molecule
Solobill Laville: yet also as water of the entire ocean
sophia Placebo: thats pretty much of how i imgined the self solo
Fefonz Quan: why? the molecule is not the ocean, it is still a molecule, surronded by other like her.
Fefonz Quan: (said for the sake of argument, but try to clarify the point)
Fefonz Quan: tried
Scathach Rhiadra: but it is essentially water as is the ocean
Scathach Rhiadra: no difference
Fefonz Quan: ocean is a name, but it is a group of molecules. the molecules ar not the ocean
Wol Euler: perhaps the point is its pervious self-perception as unique, wihle falling?
Fefonz Quan: well, the point is differnet: when the molecule is in the ocean, it might think 'i am the ocean'
arabella Ella: Hiya gen
Wol Euler: hello gen
Fefonz Quan: then ' i am so big, great, all encompassing' etc. this is teh narcissism
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Gen
Fefonz Quan: (HI Gen )
Solobill Laville: Heya, Gen :)
sophia Placebo: hi gen
genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
Scathach Rhiadra: or it might say only the ocean exists really, and my thinking I am a separate drop is illusoray?
Fefonz Quan: sure, it might say that, and then conclude it is the ocean. that can make it feel very big and omnipotent
arabella Ella: i think the tendency is there but ...
arabella Ella: do you think it could lead to arrogance and self righteousness
arabella Ella: and pride
Fefonz Quan: it might
Fefonz Quan: btw - many 'enlightened' men over history went exactly this path
arabella Ella nods
Mickorod Renard: I can see the risk,,but at the point where I am I find what we talk about as a humbling eploration
Scathach Rhiadra: how do you think we might spot this tendency , if it should arise, and what to do about it?
Mickorod Renard: exploration
Fefonz Quan: that was what i wanted to ask Scath.
Solobill Laville: Colleagues :)
arabella Ella: will anyone who reaches that stage be up to listening to others who wish to draw attention to that danger?
Fefonz Quan nods to Ara
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gen:)
Neela Blaisdale: :) true Arabella
Fefonz Quan: even before reaching this point, we might get some glimpses during practices
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Scathach!
Solobill Laville: I think what may matter more is how do "we" make effort to see
Solobill Laville: Each one of us
Fefonz Quan: i agree solo, but i talk about possible side effects of that effort
Wol Euler: g'day tarmel
Fefonz Quan: Hey Tarmel :)
Neela Blaisdale: Hi Tamel
Fefonz Quan: (and kaju)
sophia Placebo: hi tarmel
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Tarmel
arabella Ella: hiya tarmel
genesis Zhangsun: this is a fascinating discussion
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Tarmel!
Wol Euler: oooh, a full circle!
Tarmel Udimo: morning folks, sorry I'm late
genesis Zhangsun: would you relate this to spiritual materialism?
Mickorod Renard: hi everyone who I didnt notice arriving after me
genesis Zhangsun: any one familiar with that?
Scathach Rhiadra: have heard of it:)
Fefonz Quan: can ou say some words about it Gen?
Solobill Laville: That view that you are speaking about Fef, of I am big and great, etc. is not a side effect to my limited experience
Solobill Laville: G'day, Tarmel! :)
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe that's that's the aussie way solo:)
genesis Zhangsun: well my understanding is a bit superficial probably but from what I know it is when the ego attaches to the spiritual path and "materializes" it
genesis Zhangsun: sort of feeds off the greatness of its "spiritual" develoment
genesis Zhangsun: very nasty trap it seems
Fefonz Quan: yes, that's one side of it
Tarmel Udimo: spiritual [pride?
Solobill Laville: What Fef is describing, quite accurately, is an outcome of that discriminatry, dualistic though process
Solobill Laville: But that view is "transcended"
Fefonz Quan: yes, 'that discriminatry, dualistic though process' that most of us use 99% of the time :)
Solobill Laville: Yup
Solobill Laville: More than that even
Fefonz Quan: i was generous ;)
Travieso Sella: I think so far we've discussed the metaphysical aspect of the self. But the side that is being brought up I understand to be quite interesting. The spiritual ego and sometimes the intellectual ego (ego-trip) seem to be the worse kind.
genesis Zhangsun: yes Travi nasty trap :)
Solobill Laville: Let me ask a question...are you not separate? Hypothetically, or not...anyone?
sophia Placebo: very deep thought fef
arabella Ella: separate? what do you mean Solo?
Fefonz Quan: i fell seperate in some ways, and connected in others
Wol Euler: I don't thik it is eihter/or, Solo, at least not for me
Solobill Laville: We often hear here that we are part of something bigger, interconnected, "Being", "In-ness", "Godhead", etc. So is your separation from this an illusion? Are we not separate?
Solobill Laville: Ha! Wol beat me to the punch!
Wol Euler: :)
Neela Blaisdale: Both at the same time....
Wol Euler: I was reading over your shoulder
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Solobill Laville: That is a trap too, imho
Solobill Laville: Less dangerous, of course, and much more pleasant
Wol Euler: it seems to me, listening to this discussion, that _anything_ we might think or believe or feel _might_ be a trap
genesis Zhangsun: hehe
Wol Euler: if we take it to be more than it is, or ourselves to be more than we are because of it
genesis Zhangsun: little flies caught in the web :)
Solobill Laville: Ouch! [trapped]
Wol Euler: if you re trapped, then it is a trap.a
Fefonz Quan: ('Godhead' Solo?)
genesis Zhangsun: yes capacity to see things as they are seems to require balance
Fefonz Quan nods
genesis Zhangsun: not too much one way or the other or if so then at least seeing it, aware of the extremeness of the position taken
Travieso Sella: The ego in psychology is simply one's consciousness but the ego-trip usually deals with one's identity being wound up in words. While consciousness can be defined as 's cicle whose center is everywhere and circumference is nowhere.'
Travieso Sella: circle*
Tarmel Udimo: the few times i have had insight into 'seeing' I observe that in fact I don't need to do anything and there is no seperation
Tarmel Udimo: between all those egos
Tarmel Udimo: I can see what we call 'reality'
Mickorod Renard: I guess that providing that we know,,or think we know the correct ethical way of conducting ourselves then any narcissus should be contained
Fefonz Quan: is there a defined correct ethical way Mick?
Tarmel Udimo: and yes all those concerns about doing the right thing or whether we are drop away mick
genesis Zhangsun: the separate/not separate trap reminds me of the self/no self trap
Tarmel Udimo: yes agree Gen
Mickorod Renard: well Fef, I guess that is where Stims class at Kira should help us
Wol Euler: :)
Fefonz Quan: well, it is the same trap phrase in seperate ways :)
Fefonz Quan: phrased
Travieso Sella: that, gen, reminds me of reality versus non-reality
Mickorod Renard: as in any growth within ourselves we have a responsibility to use it wisely
genesis Zhangsun: yes Travi how does that one go?
Fefonz Quan: I agree mick.
genesis Zhangsun: I disagree with you Fefonz that it is the same trap
sophia Placebo: me thinks iam connected to this univers by some rules-effect and cause - and seperate from this universe in the same way but im not the trees and im not the univers im part of it and cant exist out of it
Travieso Sella: Well, my understanding of the heart sutra, outlines in Buddhismthe Middleway, where insight into thenature of things leads neither to their absolute existence nor the non-existence of phenomenon...and also the middleway has to do with application of effort
Travieso Sella: The world is definitely real, but not on an ultimate level
Travieso Sella: I suppose I'm putting that right
Solobill Laville: The Heart Sutra proports "beyond, beyond" any distictions, and conceptions, anything altogether...a key point
genesis Zhangsun: yes!
Fefonz Quan: if the self is not seperate - there is no self
genesis Zhangsun: [13:56] Travieso Sella: The world is definitely real, but not on an ultimate level
Fefonz Quan: (to gen)
genesis Zhangsun: well depends Fefonz
Travieso Sella: yes, because things have causes and produce effects that we can experience
genesis Zhangsun: on how you see the self, as a vehicle for merging with oneness or that there is no self and that what we are is a "heap of aggregates" that is to be transcended in some way
genesis Zhangsun: those are different
genesis Zhangsun: self as vehicle v. no self
Neela Blaisdale: Bye everyone, have to run, be well
genesis Zhangsun: bye neela
sophia Placebo: bye neela
Solobill Laville: BYe, Neela
Mickorod Renard: bye neela
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Neela
Tarmel Udimo: bye Neela
arabella Ella: bye neela
Wol Euler: bye neela, take care
Travieso Sella: bye
Tarmel Udimo: [13:58] genesis Zhangsun: self as vehicle v. no self
Fefonz Quan: Yes, the middle way is a good antidote to the problem i brought up.
Tarmel Udimo: I very much look at it like that
Fefonz Quan: a vehicle or no vehicle Tar,el?
Fefonz Quan: Tarmel*
Tarmel Udimo: that self is a vehicle
Fefonz Quan: (i see your point Gen, thanks for teh clarification)
Scathach Rhiadra slips out to Kira, bye all
sophia Placebo: bye scath
arabella Ella: bye Scath
genesis Zhangsun: bye scath
Solobill Laville: bye scath
Fefonz Quan: See you scath
Mickorod Renard: bye Scath
genesis Zhangsun: those are different historical interp if you are interested Fefonz
Travieso Sella: bye
Tarmel Udimo: yes me too see you later folks, thanks for the various views
sophia Placebo: bye tarmel
arabella Ella: bye tarmel
genesis Zhangsun: the self as vehicle is more like Uppshanids
genesis Zhangsun: perspective
Mickorod Renard: bye Tarmel
Wol Euler: bye tarmel, take care
Fefonz Quan: yes, no-self is the good old Buddha
genesis Zhangsun: indeed
genesis Zhangsun: though historically he himself refused to answer the question of no self
genesis Zhangsun: according to text
Fefonz Quan: yes, there are some explanations to that too, but a little off topic
Fefonz Quan: i will go to Kira too, but thanks to this great discussion.
arabella Ella: bye Fefonz
sophia Placebo: bye fef
Wol Euler: bye fef, enjoy.
genesis Zhangsun: bye Fefonz
Solobill Laville: See ya, Fef
Travieso Sella: bye
arabella Ella: thanks to you too :)
Mickorod Renard: thankyou fef,,u stimulated a great topic
Fefonz Quan: I feel that if i started a question and we got to the heart sutra and all that in the end, i did my job :)
arabella Ella: u certainly did
Travieso Sella: haha
Mickorod Renard: ;)
Fefonz Quan: See you all _/!\_
Solobill Laville: :)
Mickorod Renard: bye
Travieso Sella: _/\_
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: you know the old saying: "a heart sutra a day keeps the delusion away"
genesis Zhangsun: cute
Mickorod Renard: very nice
Mickorod Renard: ok,,gotta go folks,,thanks and byeeeee
arabella Ella: bye Mick
Solobill Laville: Bye, Mick
Wol Euler: bye mick, take care
sophia Placebo: bye mick
genesis Zhangsun: bye Mick
Travieso Sella: _/|\?
Travieso Sella: bye
genesis Zhangsun: so I've got a question :)
Travieso Sella: What's that, Gen?
Wol Euler: okay :)
genesis Zhangsun: how do we see ethics relating to PaB?
genesis Zhangsun: Stim's emphasis is on ethics recently
Solobill Laville: In what way?
genesis Zhangsun: I wonder how it goes together
genesis Zhangsun: hmm...
Wol Euler: hmmm indeed.
genesis Zhangsun: PaB sort seems to take a "high" level view, starting at the end and all
genesis Zhangsun: ethics is very on the ground down to earth
genesis Zhangsun: it is more concerned with the realm of humans
genesis Zhangsun: then the PaB "view" is
Solobill Laville: Tarmel actually hit on it well before :)
genesis Zhangsun: yeah?
genesis Zhangsun: missed that
genesis Zhangsun: what did Tarmel say?
genesis Zhangsun: are wetaking 9 seconds?>
Solobill Laville: Took me a while to find it...
Solobill Laville: [13:51] Tarmel Udimo: the few times i have had insight into 'seeing' I observe that in fact I don't need to do anything and there is no seperation [13:51] Tarmel Udimo: between all those egos [13:51] Tarmel Udimo: I can see what we call 'reality' [13:52] Tarmel Udimo: and yes all those concerns about doing the right thing or whether we are drop away mick
genesis Zhangsun: ah okay
genesis Zhangsun: indeed thanks
Solobill Laville: There is a consistent them between various practices that suggest
Solobill Laville: the "closer" one is to "whatever"
Solobill Laville: Ethical behavior is a natural "outward-flowing" occurence
arabella Ella: nite everyone i must go now
Solobill Laville: and, to hre point, there there are no ethics, as all is really only naturalness
sophia Placebo: bye ara
Solobill Laville: Bye, Ara
arabella Ella: ty for an interesting discussion
Wol Euler: bye ara
genesis Zhangsun: bye ara
Travieso Sella: _/|\_
genesis Zhangsun: from a legal standpoint hehe, that version of "ethics" is problematic
genesis Zhangsun: I wonder how you could construct a legal system that could support such a view of ethics
genesis Zhangsun: it would be an interesting experiment
Solobill Laville: I think it has been done....
genesis Zhangsun: yeah?
Solobill Laville: 10 Commandments....16 Precepts...etc
Solobill Laville: :)
sophia Placebo: i thought 10 commedmant are on the opposie side?
Solobill Laville: If everyone were "there" you wouldn't need a legal system, i would guess, except for Fef's narcissists
Solobill Laville: :)
genesis Zhangsun: "there" as in?
Solobill Laville: "Within / of Being, etc."
genesis Zhangsun: hmm okay I don't really see the 10 commandments or 16 precepts as legal systems that support the sort of ethics described
Solobill Laville is feeling the weight of too many words today... :/
genesis Zhangsun: in the sort of ethics described by Tarmel she seems to say that being in her life, seeing it allows her to immediately see what is "right"
Solobill Laville: Maybe if you describe that system again to level-set?
genesis Zhangsun: the natural flow you describe
genesis Zhangsun: of ethics
genesis Zhangsun: but it seems to be very person specific
genesis Zhangsun: not something that could be judged by a whole society or necessarily agreed upon by a whole society
Solobill Laville: I think it is to say that Ethical Conduct flows as a natural occurence of advanced awareness
genesis Zhangsun: yes so I guess trying to think about how a legal system would support such a view
Solobill Laville: It couldn't, because it is variable
Solobill Laville: So we have the 10 Commandements, and Precepts, and Laws
Solobill Laville: That was my point...badly stated
genesis Zhangsun: right but there are also processes within the law to allow it to change, in the anglo saxon system is is based on evolution by case law
genesis Zhangsun: so I guess I am just saying maybe it would interesting to explore a legal system whose goal was to be in fact variable
genesis Zhangsun: though that sounds paradoxical
Solobill Laville: It does, but makes sense too!
Solobill Laville: Judges have the ability to be variable, to an extent
Solobill Laville: As to Police officers
Solobill Laville: *do
Solobill Laville: (Hmm...as do parents...) ;)
genesis Zhangsun: yes and why the civil law system (Europe and pretty much the rest of the world) finds our judge made law so suspect
genesis Zhangsun: because it depends on the whim, the ethics of that one person
Travieso Sella: I see, and I would agree that the root of society's behaviour is in it's awareness. But for the less aware, other methods are in order apart from ethical development.
Solobill Laville: Who is an elected official< I would point out
genesis Zhangsun: judges are often appointed Solo
Solobill Laville: What?? That's it...I'm off to Canada
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Solobill Laville: :)
Wol Euler: :)
Solobill Laville agrees with Trav
genesis Zhangsun: but who makes the call as to who is "less aware"
Travieso Sella: I never really thought about this before
genesis Zhangsun: and needs remedial ethical boot camp :)
Solobill Laville: You could, Gen!
genesis Zhangsun: lol
Solobill Laville: I appoint you
genesis Zhangsun: oh man
genesis Zhangsun: we are not doing any better than the rest :)
genesis Zhangsun: I get why we have the systems we have
genesis Zhangsun: its tough
genesis Zhangsun: but maybe worth the challenge
genesis Zhangsun: even just to experiment with
genesis Zhangsun: I am really serious about this though I think it is really big problem the gap between law and my own belief
genesis Zhangsun: about how people should be judged
Solobill Laville: Our great mistake is that we underestinate ourselves
Solobill Laville: cultiver votre jardin
Solobill Laville: :)
Wol Euler smiles
genesis Zhangsun: indeed Solo it starts with one, right here
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Solobill Laville: uh huh
Solobill Laville: And it is amazing how the rest takes care of itself...though the opposite is totally true as well
Solobill Laville: Gads
Solobill Laville is curious but incompetent :)
Wol Euler: aawwww :)
genesis Zhangsun: I doubt that
Solobill Laville: I Dont Know -is half The Knowledge...
Solobill Laville winks at Soph
Solobill Laville: One can learn much from people's quotes in their profiles...
Solobill Laville barks at Wol
genesis Zhangsun: maybe that should be the kira institute slogan "we don't know and we like it"
Wol Euler: /me's tail wags.
Solobill Laville: That is a great one Gen!
Wol Euler: somewhat kinder than Fef's phrasing: "I dont know, and neither do you"
Wol Euler: yeah, it's good.
Travieso Sella: the agnostic slogan
Wol Euler: my dears, I must be going. Thank you for a great discussion, and enjoy your weekends.
sophia Placebo: i guess i wouldnt think of myself as a godess , though im human one of the best living creatures on earth ,but im human among humans , i make mistakes .keeping this in mind make me deal with self in a carefull way
Travieso Sella: agnostic evangelical*
Solobill Laville: Well, the only issue really being comfortable when someone say to you "you don't know"...
sophia Placebo: bye wol
Wol Euler: bye for now
Solobill Laville: See ya Wol
genesis Zhangsun: I'm off to
genesis Zhangsun: thanks for the good discussion
Travieso Sella: I just get more confused withtime
genesis Zhangsun: bye!
Travieso Sella: _/|\?
Solobill Laville: Yes...
sophia Placebo: yep , it is a wise phrase solo , i dont know is half the knowladge
Travieso Sella: _/|\_
sophia Placebo: bye gen
genesis Zhangsun: bye!
genesis Zhangsun: bye Solobill
Solobill Laville: see ya Gen
genesis Zhangsun: great session as always your session
Solobill Laville: I think I need to go as well, folks :)
Travieso Sella: ciao
sophia Placebo: me too
sophia Placebo: bye all
Travieso Sella: me too