2009.05.24 13:00 - Openness and discretion

The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

Another lively session which meandered from practical questions to openness as a gift, as well as a vulnerability, to notions of discretion, to notions of hate, power and even evil, but also altruism.  A truly diverse range of discursive topics, not unusual for this group of PaBers.   

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey
Maxine Walden: hi, Yakuzza
Maxine Walden: Have you been to these meetings, Yakuzza? Not sure we have met.
Maxine Walden: hi, Pila
Yakuzza Lethecus: i was here a couple of times now
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello pila
Pila Mulligan: hi Maxine hi Yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: but no i can´t remember you either
Maxine Walden: oh, good, Yaluzza, then you know about our discussions and logging them...
Maxine Walden: Is it OK to have your contributions as part of our logged discussions?
Yakuzza Lethecus: sure
Maxine Walden: great.
Yakuzza Lethecus: i was here already as i said
Maxine Walden: right, sorry just checking
Pila Mulligan: hi
Pila Mulligan: wol
Maxine Walden: hi, Wol
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi wol
Wol Euler: hello maxine, pila, yakuzza
Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza
Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza
Wol Euler: helo eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :) Hi Yakuzza, Wol :)
Maxine Walden: We have been discussing dreams and dreaming at these Sunday sessions, but of course any topic of interest is open for discussion
Yakuzza Lethecus: i dream that it would be friday today, does that count ? :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: last again, or next already?
Maxine Walden: perhaps so, Yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: in that case wednesday
Yakuzza Lethecus: but sorry bad joke :)
Maxine Walden: thought so :)
Pila Mulligan: a quick digression please for a possible bit of advice -- Pila's problem of the moment: remembering how to use a sewing machine :)
Pila Mulligan: I got the bobbin wound, the thread set up and thru the needle, but when I start trying to sew it jams after a few seconds and there are big thread loops under the cloth stuck in the foot
Eliza Madrigal is no help whatsoever in that Pila :) Sorry
Pila Mulligan: is this an easy fix?
Wol Euler shakes her head and smiles. Not my subject, sorry.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Maxine Walden: have not touched a sewing machine for a long time, but just maybe if you pull the thread which is through the needle out for a few inches, it might not tangle as much
Wol Euler: but it sounds like the lower thread is not catching the needle
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Scathach :)
Pila Mulligan: ok -- thanks -- sorry to digress :)
Wol Euler: hello scath
Maxine Walden: hi, Schath
Pila Mulligan: hi Scath
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi scath
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello all, sorry to be late:)
Maxine Walden: know anything about sewing machines, Scath? Pila was asking for help
Pila Mulligan: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: no sorry:)
Eliza Madrigal: "A woman who can sew should never admit it" ... a line from the English Patient
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Pila Mulligan: I will call a neighbir after this session, thanks
Maxine Walden: ah...
Pila Mulligan: thought maybe there might be an easy -- "oh, just do this ... "
Pila Mulligan: now I really should have dreamed of the answer before it happened
Eliza Madrigal: :) What are you sewing Pila?
Pila Mulligan: curtains
Maxine Walden: Pila, do you have that feeling that it is just a very small thing...?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: I've made curtains before -- 15 years ago
Eliza Madrigal: Nice :)
Pila Mulligan: it is easy
Pila Mulligan: it is just getting started
Maxine Walden: like the bobbin tension, somethig like that. Nice to be making curtains
Pila Mulligan: yep
Maxine Walden: however
sophia Placebo: hello all
Yakuzza Lethecus: heysopia
Pila Mulligan: hi sophia
Eliza Madrigal: Hi sophia :)
Wol Euler: hello sophia
Maxine Walden: so many problems seem to have that 'little thing' aura. Hi, sophia
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
Pila Mulligan: little steps that make a big difference (au huli in Hawaii) -- I rememebr the night I asked an excellent mechanic (now deceased) freind about a car problem I was having -- we were at a deli, he came out and listened to the engine, went in and got a peice of wood, put the wood in the engine someway and gave a tug, and the engine ran fine rom there on
Maxine Walden: wow, Pila, great story
Eliza Madrigal: heh, how great
Maxine Walden: those seem like magic a bit, that 'little something' that seems to make things work
Pila Mulligan: yep, but usually it is like knowing where the rocks are (as in walking on water)
Maxine Walden: right!!
Maxine Walden: perhaps we are all a bit meditative today...sitting in silence together
sophia Placebo: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) I have a topic of sorts... but was waiting to see what else might come up...
Pila Mulligan: the dream topic is a nice one if there is interest in discussing it
Pila Mulligan: but Eliza's may be the better choice
Eliza Madrigal: ...something dreams helped pave the way for.... I have mentioned before efforts to greet people in my life 'anew'... think this is what forgiveness and compassion has to mean. The thing is, I determine to do this with one or two people... to move into that direction, and now I find that others are showing up. This shouldn't matter... how many... but I am noticing it and hope to respond well.
Pila Mulligan: whatever it may be :)
Eliza Madrigal: (there it is... always startling how much room a little thought can take up) hehe
Maxine Walden: but maybe it is not a little thought, Eliza
Wol Euler nods
Eliza Madrigal: :) It isn't really... but in perspective I hope it will become so...
Pila Mulligan: maybe having opened the door you are finding lots of potential guests
Eliza Madrigal: am a little hesitant to 'open all doors' in some ways
Eliza Madrigal: exactly Pila
Eliza Madrigal: I think it is a common experience... though not exact.
Pila Mulligan: well, even with an open door, there is not necessarily a hurry to greet everyone ooutside
Eliza Madrigal: well, but some of these things... if I don't embrace outright, is like turning an opportunity away
Eliza Madrigal: the karma discussions tie in here also... but am not sure all the levels
Maxine Walden: yes, an being more open does not mean that you cannot have discretion
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kenji
Pila Mulligan: hi kenji
kenji Pookes: hi
Wol Euler: hello kenji
sophia Placebo: hi kenji
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Kenji
Maxine Walden: in my experience when I am more open in some way it seems to radiate beyond what I had expected. Think that is what you are suggesting as well, Eliza, isn't it?
Eliza Madrigal: Precisely Maxine!
Eliza Madrigal: Like a signal I sent out :)
sophia Placebo: how much forgiveness and compassion do the heart bank have ? how many dependants can it afford
Maxine Walden: Yes, wonder if others have experienced that 'signal going out'?
sophia Placebo: going out and abused sometimes :)
Maxine Walden: ah...and that is sad when that happens, sophia
Scathach Rhiadra: well, I know that whenever I have tried to not get angry say, I usually find a whole lot of situations that test that suddenly appear:)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: seem like tests
Maxine Walden: that is interesting, Scath...as if the gods are testing you
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Eliza Madrigal: "How much do you want what you say you want...really?" in both cases Peace
Pila Mulligan: [13:26] Maxine Walden: ... being more open does not mean that you cannot have discretion
Wol Euler: are they "new" or are you just being aware of them for the first time? Perhaps they show you how often you had been angry before without noticing?
sophia Placebo: sometimes , sometimes i dont care if they abused it , its their loss , didnt give it to ask something in return nor cause i need something from them-out of weakness- sometime you just did it cause it what seems the good thing you can do and you go for it
Scathach Rhiadra nods, that is probably the case Wol
Eliza Madrigal: sophia, it is a risk.... but I guess I 'believe' one should take those risks.... even if afraid to . I guess this is where the test is with idealism
Eliza Madrigal: do I just like the idea of love?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Maxine Walden: openness vs vulnerability, perhaps in Sophia's situation
Maxine Walden: or openness vs perceived weakness...
Eliza Madrigal: hmm
Wol Euler: there are many worse ideas to like, Eliza :)
Pila Mulligan: sometimes a situation can be solved by being in neutral -- not going forward and not going back -- just a polite kind of unsppoken 'let's wait until next time to deal with this'
sophia Placebo: it is a risk true , didnt master it yet , may fail many times
Eliza Madrigal: :) Wol, this is true
Pila Mulligan: ... that is what I think of regarding Maxine's reference to discretion
sophia Placebo: agree pila
Maxine Walden: yes, pila
Eliza Madrigal: Darn Facebook :)
Pila Mulligan: Facebook?
sophia Placebo: though that is not the case with children nor old poeple
Eliza Madrigal: If you don't say 'yes' to someone on facebook, to be a 'friend' it is insulting....
Pila Mulligan: ahh :)
Pila Mulligan: kind of like SL
kenji Pookes: What is not the same for children and elderly?
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: sophia, go on?
sophia Placebo: mm re pila
Pila Mulligan: putting things off a while
Pila Mulligan: children won't wait, old people may not have time :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
kenji Pookes: But old people often do wait--they often put things off.
Pila Mulligan: maybe sophia had a different hought
Pila Mulligan: I'm old and patient, but I've had frined die beofre we'd finished old talks
Eliza Madrigal: Oh ... difficult, Pila :(
kenji Pookes: I would also add that children routinely put things off. Chores is a good example. Children are not as spontaneous as many thinkg.
sophia Placebo: i dont know , :) love old poeple and love to chat with them
Eliza Madrigal: I think I feel instinctively that if I let these chances go by... they do just that... the moment is gone for another long while.
Eliza Madrigal: lifetime or two maybe :)
sophia Placebo: have feeling that in old poeple case one would not say lets wait another time , though he may said it in more politically polite way :)
Pila Mulligan: but that is the art of discretion, Eliza, preserving the intitative but not using it
Pila Mulligan: your sense of urgency may be accurate, or maybe it is not
Eliza Madrigal nods... guess it is back to trial and error... hehe
Pila Mulligan: yep, learning a new skill :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: 'deaing' with conflict rather than running... imagine!
Pila Mulligan: discretion is one of the hardest, if you ask me
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Eliza Madrigal: :)
kenji Pookes: Perhaps this has already been discussed, but how is ignoring conflict (which I often do) different from running from it?
Maxine Walden: agree, discretion takes a lot of experience to feel comfortable with
Eliza Madrigal: kenji, great question
Maxine Walden: interesting question, kenji
Pila Mulligan: Stim has shown a masterful ability to defuse potential conflicts in the ethics workshops -- and it is obviously the reuslt of his experience -- he is not ignoring the conflict, or running away, he is emptiyng it
Maxine Walden: can you tell us a bit more, Pila, about how Stim seems to do that?
Pila Mulligan: I'd try but the easiest way to see it is to read the workshop logs
sophia Placebo: :)
Eliza Madrigal likes the phrase 'emptying it'
kenji Pookes: In my work environment, conflict is common--academics usually don't have much of anything else to grope for other than power. I tend to simply stand aside from it as much as possible. There are a few people who really hate mea (and I pretty much hate back) but I don't let that bother me--I just ignore it.
Pila Mulligan: you can see how well he deflects emerging situations -- usually with new people inclined to conflict
Pila Mulligan: ahh, a nice academic hate-hate relaitonship
Maxine Walden: ah, thanks.
kenji Pookes: Is there any other kind of academic relationship?
Maxine Walden: Yes, I have noticed a lot of power and 'me-first' in academic situations; seems it is not the learning that comes first, but the ownership of the thought...
Pila Mulligan: yep
kenji Pookes: Actually, I tend to think that anger, hatred, and manipulation are simply parts of human nature.
Pila Mulligan: but they can be poisonous parts, kenji
kenji Pookes: If you let them be.
Pila Mulligan: yep, I'd prefer to ingore soemone with neutrality
kenji Pookes: Anyone read Barbara Oakly's book Evil Genes?
Pila Mulligan: not me
Eliza Madrigal: no... is that like Dawkins' Selfish Gene?
Wol Euler: no, tell us about it?
Maxine Walden: no, kenji, what does she say
kenji Pookes: Different from Dawkins.
kenji Pookes: I've just started reading the boo, but I know the author and have talked quite a bit with her about it.
Pila Mulligan: http://www.evilgenes.com/
kenji Pookes: She argues that evil behavior is genetic--Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. are not abberations, they are products of human evolution.
Maxine Walden: ah...might be some interesting discussions to come out of that premise...
Pila Mulligan: her whole title is "Evil Genes: Why Rome Fell, Hitler Rose, Enron Failed and My Sister Stole My Mother’s Boyfriend" :)
sophia Placebo: :)
kenji Pookes: I met her at the CONTACT conference in Apri and she gave a very interesting talk on altruism (devient altruism, that is)
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Eliza Madrigal: devient altruism?
kenji Pookes: Yes, she argues that it is possible to be too altruistic. I'd have to go back to my notes to remember the specifics, but it is an interesting idea. A character like Jesus, might be an example of deviant altruism.
Maxine Walden: I have to go to another meeting; will take the chatlog later. Very nice to see everyone.
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Pila Mulligan: bye Maxine
Maxine Walden: bye all, see you soon
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Maxine, thank you
sophia Placebo: bye maxine
Wol Euler: bye maxine, enjoy the evening
kenji Pookes: If you think about it, from the perspective of natural selection, altruism may make some sense, but only to a point. Getting oneself killed doesn't do much for reproducing one's genes.
kenji Pookes: Bye
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Maxine
Wol Euler: I thought the notion of "tribe" was the answer to that: I share genes with my siblings, if my death helps them live, then our parents' genes win
kenji Pookes: Yes, that is the view of some sociobiologists, although it does it does not explain characteristics like extreme self-sacrifice, particularly when not dealing with one's relatives.
Pila Mulligan: altruism as a pursuit of cultural ideals can be dangerous
kenji Pookes: Why should I push you out of the way of an oncoming bus and get myself killed? We are not related in any close way, so it does not do my capacity to reproduce or preserve genes any good.
Wol Euler: perhaps it does my self-worth as a person some good?
kenji Pookes: Good point, Pila. Also, one person's altruism is another person's evil.
Wol Euler: for a short time :)
Eliza Madrigal: I think part of what caused me to think in a certain way about this was reading the log this month on karma... and thinking about not condeming anyone to their 'past' moment... letting them be reborn to me, in a sense. That may be wild altruism :)
sophia Placebo: should our genes govern us ?
Eliza Madrigal: but yes wol... your way of summing it up is perfect and less wordy!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
kenji Pookes: According to some, it isn't really a matter of whether or not they should, it is whether or not they do.
Wol Euler frowns. But if genes do govern our behaviour, then extreme altruism must also be genetically beneficial.
kenji Pookes: I'm not advocating that position, but I do find it interesting. In fact, I will be contributing a chapter to Oakley's book on devient altruism that argues against the idea.
Wol Euler: else the genes would not allow it
sophia Placebo: for some the thought in it self do have effect as if it is out of genes
kenji Pookes: She thinks it is an example of pathologicy. Actually. that's the term she uses--pathological altruism.
Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm good point sophia
kenji Pookes: Evolution does not always lead to positive results--it is a matter of balancing. The peacock's tail does not do much to make it fly well.
sophia Placebo: it is beautiful
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
kenji Pookes: What is? sorry, I was watching the college baseball playoffs.
Wol Euler throws a cushion at you
sophia Placebo: hehe
Scathach Rhiadra: peacocks tail
kenji Pookes: Baseball is the only real truth.
kenji Pookes: Particularly beautiful to female peacocks who want to mate.
kenji Pookes: That's why it looks the way it does.
sophia Placebo: no , beautifill to humans too
Wol Euler wonders which combination of genes is beneefited by baseball?
kenji Pookes: But peacocks probably don't care much what we think about their tales.
Eliza Madrigal thinks of George Carlin's riff on baseball v football
kenji Pookes: Baseball is probably an outrgrowth of a genetic need to compete. Of course, baseball is beautiful.
sophia Placebo: that wouldnt change that its tale is beautiful
Wol Euler: oh, I don't know that one Eliza.
kenji Pookes: Yes, Carlin's thing is quite funny.
Eliza Madrigal: 'baseball is played on a diamond...football on a grid..." about football being aggressive and baseball being passive...
Eliza Madrigal: he goes on and on... hysterical
kenji Pookes: Assuming that beauty is a given, true thing, not just a result of culture.
kenji Pookes: Carlin's skit on Religion is BS is also quite funny.
Pila Mulligan: [nb: female peacock= peahen]
kenji Pookes: Didn't know that. But it makes sense.
Eliza Madrigal: http://home.earthlink.net/~sscutchen...s_football.htm
sophia Placebo: re genes , hmm , keep thinking about how it interacts with invironment ,how it interact with each other how they can get activated disactivated , how they could be expressed or not
sophia Placebo: genes to some extents can be modefied no?
kenji Pookes: Radiation modifies one's genetic makeup.
kenji Pookes: At least it damages it.
kenji Pookes: This must be boring, Scathach passed out.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
kenji Pookes: I often have that influence on people.
Scathach Rhiadra: sorry!
Scathach Rhiadra: just didn't move for too long:)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh.. better is the utube video for someone who wants to see that... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om_yq4L3M_I
sophia Placebo: radiation is an extreme thought and pathological one , think of skin color in relation to the amount of sun exposure
kenji Pookes: Classrooms full of 100 sleeping students.
sophia Placebo: think of colon cancer in relation to high fat food
kenji Pookes: Skin color is phenotypical not genotypical in terms of change. In other words, our genes are designed to allow for changes in skil color. The change in color does not reflect a change in genetic structure of the organism.
sophia Placebo: think of body built in relation to movment
sophia Placebo: thats what im talking about how genes interacts with environment , though not sure about skin color , look at african american they still black
kenji Pookes: Left to nature, the descendents of africans placed in Norway, would become lighter over many, many generations.
sophia Placebo: point is some genes can be modefied by some behaviour but at what point this modefication is locked and they become essentially inherited and expressed in every generation ?
kenji Pookes: They don't really become "locked". Mutations routinely arise. Whether or not they are beneficial determines whether or not those genes survive.
sophia Placebo: i see
kenji Pookes: Back to skin color. The light or dark color of one's skin is related to a variety of environmental factors. But the capacity to change skin color, like tanning or a chameleon, is a facultative trait that is genetially designed to do what it does.
Wol Euler: how does that theory explain regressive and fatal diseases like Tay Sachs or haemophilia?
kenji Pookes: Natural selection creates trade-offs. For example, black people are more susceptible to sicle cell anemia than are white people. However, they are less susceptible to malaria. the gene that allows for some protection against malaria also creates the problem with Sicle Cell anemia.
kenji Pookes: NS is a constant balancing act. Why are cheetas and Thompson's gazelles both very fast?
sophia Placebo: re sickle cell , black poeple -african - were living where malaria was endimic , some areas here where poeple are not african like black and some are white do have sickle cell disease , sicle cell thought to be an adaptive genetic mutation to counter malaria
kenji Pookes: Also, mutations occure that can lead to a variety of physical and mental problems. In the natural environment, those individuals would not survive and their genes would be weeded out. In the human environment, we have basically side-stepped NS because we don not allow for those born with genetic abnormalities to be weeded out.
Pila Mulligan must slip out quietly now -- 'bye everyone'
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pila
sophia Placebo: bye pila
Wol Euler: goodnight pila, take care
kenji Pookes: All humans have the capacity for sickle cell disease. It is not limited to blacks. However, the gene that causes it is statistically more prevelant among people where malaria was endemic.
kenji Pookes: It isn't realted to skin color, but skin color is another byproduct of living in the equatorial partso f the world. Which also is a breeding ground for malaria.
Eliza Madrigal: the potential for something still doesn't mean a definite emergence though?... to the question of whether having 'evil genes' predetermines an untranscendable pattern of way of seeing things/behavior?
kenji Pookes: Agreed. I'm sure there are many potentially good mutations that simply have not emerged, probably some really bad ones as well.
kenji Pookes: I should probably add one point; I don't think that we are genetically programmed for evil. Rather, I think "evil" doesn't exist in an objective sense. It is simply the definition of that which rubs against cultural norms.
Scathach Rhiadra nods
sophia Placebo: so , if a criminal proven to have an evil gene which is responsible for the behavoir then ...
kenji Pookes: Good and evil are purely cultural.
kenji Pookes: Sophia, that's aninteresting problem with Oakley's approach.
Wol Euler: I suspect that it may be an undisclosed intention with her approach -- but perhaps I am unfair.
Scathach Rhiadra: would not everyone who had that gene not have to be a criminal to prove it?
kenji Pookes: It's not, actually.
Wol Euler: good :)
sophia Placebo: oakleys needs a prove to her claim ie the genes , but im thinking serouisly if those genes were found
Eliza Madrigal: Good question Scath... seems so
kenji Pookes: Genes exist in an environment, but not just the external environment. Other genes in an organism are part of the environment in which genes operate. In other words, the organism is an environment.
kenji Pookes: Well, the proof may be in her book; I haven't finished reading it yet, so I don't want to pass judgement on her ideas.
sophia Placebo: my genes say i must sleep :) goodnight all ,been a very good chat with you all
Eliza Madrigal: :) Nite Sophia
Wol Euler smiles. Goodnight sophia, sleep well
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Sophia:)
Eliza Madrigal: Very interesting ideas :)
kenji Pookes: Good nihght Sophia
kenji Pookes: Well, I shold goo too. Laundry is hanging out on the line that needs to be brought in.
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Kenji
kenji Pookes: Thanks for an interesting conversation!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye kenji :)
kenji Pookes: Bye.
Wol Euler: bye kenji, fold well.
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
kenji Pookes: Who said anything about folding
Wol Euler: :)
Eliza Madrigal is now thoughtful about dealing with people and capacity for change
Wol Euler nods
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, we all are
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal thinks she is just going to accept whoever asks
Eliza Madrigal: and if there are issues... deal with them then, not expect them
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: let them surprise you, perhaps
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: yes. It is what I would hope for in those shoes
Wol Euler: you never know, they might be thinking of extending compassion and forgiveness to you too :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes... hard not to replay the old scenes... was real work before ... draining
Eliza Madrigal: but what the heck... hahah
Wol Euler: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Wol, Scathach, Yakuzza :)
Wol Euler: I was about to suggest that we stop the log
Scathach Rhiadra: night Eliza:)
Wol Euler: goodnight Eliza, thanks for a good discussion
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you very much.... wheels are still turning :)
Wol Euler: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now :)
Wol Euler: Goodnight all, this was an interesting discussion.
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Wol
Wol Euler: goodnight scath, yakuzza
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Yakuzza, I am off too