2009.05.02 07:00 - "me" as appearance

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Vendy Walpole: hello
Qt Core: hi Vendy
Vendy Walpole: are you a guardian here?
Qt Core: i'm one but i'm not the session one
Vendy Walpole: I see.
Vendy Walpole: each time is another?
Qt Core: since a few days yes, before some had multiple slot to cover
Vendy Walpole: k
Qt Core: then there are the ones like me that son't feel ready yet to do it
Qt Core: ;-)
Qt Core: (even if some say the opposite)

 

What do you like the most about PaB?

Vendy Walpole: for how long have you been in play as being?

Qt Core: a couple of month, not more maybe less
Vendy Walpole: what is in it, that you like the most, if I may ask?
Qt Core: hi lia
Vendy Walpole: hi
Lia Rikugun: hello everybody
Qt Core: the silence, present even while we speak here
Qt Core: and the idea of bringing some form of meditation in "real" daily life
Vendy Walpole: yes, I like that ttoo, but I like the topics as well, they are like brain storming
Qt Core: well, that is how to say, almost obvious those two feeling are on a deeper level
Vendy Walpole: shall we have a topic for today?
Lia Rikugun: you can choose :)
Vendy Walpole looks at Qt
Qt Core: who, me ?
Vendy Walpole: do you have any idea?
Vendy Walpole: any suggestions from you Lia?

 

detach from the "me", seeing things as appearances

Lia Rikugun: hm, this week i was trying to detach myself from the "me"

Lia Rikugun: :D
Lia Rikugun: and see myself as appearance
Vendy Walpole: how do you mean as appearance?
Lia Rikugun: pema is always talking about appearances
Lia Rikugun: i am not sure if i can correctly summarize what he always says
Lia Rikugun: i will try
Vendy Walpole: yes, please
Qt Core: (and making some heads spin) ;-)
Lia Rikugun: hm
Lia Rikugun: if you start to detach from the things araound you
Lia Rikugun: hello scathach!
Qt Core: hi scathach
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Lia, Vendy, QT
Vendy Walpole: hi
Lia Rikugun: you first just try to wear the clothes of "I am .. years old" "my profession is this and that"
Lia Rikugun: a little looser
Lia Rikugun: dont identify yourself too much with what you do
Lia Rikugun: on one hand
Lia Rikugun: and then start seeing everything as appearances
Lia Rikugun: that tgings around you are true and not
Lia Rikugun: i am not sure if i can explain
Vendy Walpole: I believe I can get the point
Lia Rikugun: scathach can you explain how to see everything as appearances?
Scathach Rhiadra: You explained it good, Lia:)
Lia Rikugun: :)
Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
Qt Core: hi adams
Vendy Walpole: hello
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams
Lia Rikugun: hello adams
Vendy Walpole: can I say what i understand?
Lia Rikugun: please
Scathach Rhiadra: I suppose seeing all as they are right here, right now
Vendy Walpole: if we deattach from ourselves, we shall see us as all other things and the world around us, equaly ?
Vendy Walpole: then we become appearance?
Lia Rikugun: i think it is somehow a personal thing
Scathach Rhiadra: maybe stepping aside a little, not really detached?
Lia Rikugun: and you decide how you want to do this ;)
Vendy Walpole: can you explain this stepping aside Scatsh?
Lia Rikugun: (yes mqaybe my words are not the correct ones)
Adams Rubble: Hello Eliza :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams, Eliza
Vendy Walpole: hi
Qt Core: sometime i see this knowing/seeing the appearance as ... know your enemy
Lia Rikugun: hello eliza
Qt Core: hi eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi everyone :)
Vendy Walpole: when you see it as enemy, can you give us an expample?

 

 what is real, what do we think is real?

Adams Rubble: Seeing things as appearance reminds us that we are not necessarily seeing reality but what we think is reality

Vendy Walpole: (sorry for typos)
Scathach Rhiadra: shifting back into awareness rather than identifing with the self, maybe:)
Qt Core: maybe it is just a result born from my ignorance, but it came from a clash from the idea that all is only appearance, a shadow and the idea of appreciating it
Adams Rubble: becoming detached we can begin to comprehend the presence behind the appearance
Vendy Walpole: yes, I see that too Adams
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, and appearances arise in our perceptions

 

appearances and suffering, why is it so difficult to get detached from pain?

Vendy Walpole: why is so hard to be dettached in real life when it causes pain so often?

Vendy Walpole: almost always it leads to suffeing
Scathach Rhiadra: maybe we cling to the appearances as though they were reality
Lia Rikugun: it is real and not
Vendy Walpole: yes, true
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Lia Rikugun: we are suffering
Lia Rikugun: but we can see the suffering as appearance
Lia Rikugun: as an observer
Lia Rikugun: which makes it easier maybe
Qt Core: maybe as before we do a deep analisys it does not seem an appearance but reality and you have to have energy and dedication to discover that (being told isn't enough)
Lia Rikugun: and see clearly
Scathach Rhiadra: or if we can be in touch with our true nature, we could see through the suffering
Adams Rubble: When we are suffering it is the time when we most need to watch appearances closely to see what is really there

 

How difficult is it to see yourself as appearance?

Vendy Walpole: If you let me, I would like to know, how often, each of you, manage to do it, to see yourself as appearance and how easily it is for you, each?

Adams Rubble: that includes watching out thoughts
Lia Rikugun: too difficult :)
Vendy Walpole: It would help me
Lia Rikugun: i saw it clearly for 2 minutes maybe
Lia Rikugun: hehe
Vendy Walpole: each time you try?
Adams Rubble: I don't know if I ever tried to see myself as appearance
Vendy Walpole: or sometimes you are not able simply?
Qt Core: brb
Lia Rikugun: this was just an experiment
Adams Rubble: interesting exercise :)
Lia Rikugun: to loose the idea of me, dont know if its good or not
Vendy Walpole: I feel a resistance sometimes when I try it, yet sometimes I am able to do it for a few mins
Lia Rikugun: and what do you feel then vendy?
Vendy Walpole: I feel light, and the space enlarge around me, no barriers
Lia Rikugun: :)
Vendy Walpole: perceptions are better
Adams Rubble: :)
Vendy Walpole: feel detached from myself
Lia Rikugun: what do you mean: perceptions are better?
Adams Rubble: That's wonderful Vendy :)
Eliza Madrigal: expansiveness, very nice
Vendy Walpole: I hear all sounds clearly as instance
Lia Rikugun: ahh
Vendy Walpole: not only those close to me
Lia Rikugun: :) ty
Vendy Walpole: and feel the space better
Lia Rikugun: and can you carry this feeling into your real life?
Vendy Walpole: not only inside the room I am
Eliza Madrigal: a hightened sense of sound...can relate to that
Lia Rikugun: like 30% of it as an idea
Qt Core: when that happen to me i don't think about seeing me as an appearance
Vendy Walpole: I try it throug the day, to repeat it
Vendy Walpole: not easy always
Lia Rikugun: this is very difficult for me
Qt Core: instead i feel my mind (myself ?) more real than ever
Vendy Walpole: sometimes I can't do it
Lia Rikugun: somehow it feels like seeing yourself as appearance means doing nothing
Lia Rikugun: but you can continue
Eliza Madrigal: For me the challenge has been to practice detachment without as much distance somehow...hard to describe....to be *more* engaged because I feel I can be...everything is transient/appearance so ultimately is *fine*.
Scathach Rhiadra: like more present in the here and now ?
Adams Rubble: QT, you have another route to expanding space?
Qt Core: just breathing
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Qt Core: and calming my mind
Vendy Walpole: somehow, the breathing ties me to my body
Eliza Madrigal nods. I appreciate the emphasis on here and now, more real.
Vendy Walpole: it is not the way that helps me
Adams Rubble: that's great Qt
Adams Rubble: I always use such complicated routes. hehe. Maybe some day I'll learn :)
Lia Rikugun: what complicated routes?
Adams Rubble: It gets complicated to try to describe Lia
Adams Rubble: A little of thids and a little of that
Adams Rubble: this

 

SL as an example to see appearances more easy

Vendy Walpole: I will use an expample from SL, I try to move my "camera" in rl to watch me as appearance and the space around wider and wider

Lia Rikugun: ok
Qt Core: but sometimes i wonder if it is only that being calm (and usualy with closed eyes) i just use hearing more
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: I have that sensation Qt
Eliza Madrigal: Ah Vendy, yes I enjoy that also... taking different views which make one just one part of things
Adams Rubble: the other senses come into play especially if I close my eyes
Vendy Walpole: SL is a very good way to practice that, yes
Qt Core: i started imagining moving my camera in rl too, nothing happens ;-)
Vendy Walpole: and we are here just appearances in sl
Vendy Walpole: distance it from yourslef Qt
Vendy Walpole: and you will see you
Lia Rikugun: :)
Vendy Walpole: :)
Qt Core: not a very nice view ;-)
Vendy Walpole: hahaha
Scathach Rhiadra: is this the phenomenology exploration you are talking about?
Lia Rikugun: (I dont know, have not been to the pheno workshop for long time :( )
Vendy Walpole: I never been there
Qt Core: (i've never been there)
Lia Rikugun: hello genesis
Adams Rubble: Hello Gen :)
Qt Core: hi genesis
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gen
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gen :)
Lia Rikugun: but seeing everything as appearances was an exploration i think for one pheno workshop
genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
Eliza Madrigal: Certainly this has been a topic in PaB, and also in many meditation/mindfulness practices but maybe with different terminology and emphasis.
Vendy Walpole: yes, in buddhism classes too
Vendy Walpole: it is the basic teaching
Eliza Madrigal: That's one thing that has made it a little hard for me to translate into the pheno. workshop..lol
Eliza Madrigal: I want to be specific and then I think "Am I doing what they are doing, or just ___." :)
Lia Rikugun: :)

 

real and not real at the same time...

Vendy Walpole: another question, why this world/ rl is not real and it is real at the same time?

Lia Rikugun: everything in itself makes sense
Lia Rikugun: this is how i see it
Lia Rikugun: and you cannot do just anything
Lia Rikugun: so on some level it is real
Lia Rikugun: on another level it is not
Lia Rikugun: what do the thers think?
Lia Rikugun: others
Adams Rubble: I don;t worry too much about that anymore :)
Eliza Madrigal: I like that Lia..that "everything in itself" idea... arising and dissolving in its moment/place.
Lia Rikugun: ah you make it clearer for me eliza, thank you
Lia Rikugun: :)
Lia Rikugun: i like pema metaphor
Lia Rikugun: he is always saying it is you being an actor in a theater play
Lia Rikugun: the story is real you are in it
Lia Rikugun: and you are playing
Lia Rikugun: but afterwards you have a different life
Lia Rikugun: so you are 2 in one somehow
Vendy Walpole: what would be different life in this case Lia?
Lia Rikugun: i dont know i think of it as a "bigger me"
Lia Rikugun: without any definition of that
Lia Rikugun: not me me
Vendy Walpole: that is another way of describing the appearnces
Vendy Walpole: right?
Lia Rikugun: i am not sure, now i am confused :)

 

WHAT is it arising and dissolving out of?

Eliza Madrigal: :) Hard sometimes not to be preoccupied with "WHAT is it arising and dissolving out of?" But that's what we can't see when we try to look at it? That's what we want to allow...Being/Illumination?

Lia Rikugun: happens often with PaB :P
Adams Rubble: :)
Eliza Madrigal: (apologies for being so wordy)
Vendy Walpole: you said it very nice Eliza
Adams Rubble nods
Adams Rubble: I agree with Vendy
Eliza Madrigal: thank you. I know for myself that endless trying to trace things back gets exhausting. hah
Adams Rubble: Much of what we think is real is not real, just appearances
Eliza Madrigal nods
Adams Rubble: and that includes much of us
Scathach Rhiadra: or it is relatively real, not ultimately real, maybe
Adams Rubble: yes Scath :)
Eliza Madrigal: Much of us... yes..not that it is all Unreal or without substance entirely. Hm

 

Goodbyes

Lia Rikugun: (sorry, I will have to go)

Adams Rubble: bye Lia :)
Lia Rikugun: take care you all and thank you for the nice discussion
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Lia, Thanks.
Vendy Walpole: you too, bye
Scathach Rhiadra: Bye Lia, Namaste
Vendy Walpole: hope see you soon all, have a nice weekend :)
Qt Core: time to go for me to this rean/unreal rl is quite annoying sometimes ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Vendy, everyone :) Namaste
Eliza Madrigal: hehe Qt
Vendy Walpole: Bye
Qt Core: bye all
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Vendy, you too!
Vendy Walpole: thx
Adams Rubble: bye all :)
Vendy Walpole: waves
Scathach Rhiadra: bye QT, have a nice weekend!
Qt Core: you too, have fun
Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, bye Eliza, Gen, Namasté