2009.05.18 13:00 - Value Judgments

The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gaya:)
Gaya Ethaniel: Did you have a good day?
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, did you?
Gaya Ethaniel: Got rained on otherwise good ty :)
Scathach Rhiadra: yes a lot of rain here too
Gaya Ethaniel: Showery this week it seems.
Scathach Rhiadra: it is wintery!
Gaya Ethaniel: aaww ... sorry to hear it. Though I must agree it's not as warm as it should be.
Gaya Ethaniel: Can I ask you what kind of meditation practice you do Scath?
Scathach Rhiadra: mostly calm abiding, following the breath, and vipassana
Scathach Rhiadra: and you?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Hello Scath, Gaya
Scathach Rhiadra: very like Stim's exercises,
Gaya Ethaniel: Sittings and sometimes walking. Until Stim talked about 'view', I just observed and try to be as inclusive as possible about what arises.
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Stim :)
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Stim
Fefonz Quan: Hello Stim
Stim Morane: Hi Gaya, Scathach, Fefonz!
Stim Morane: Unfortunately, I was just given a "rush" job a few minutes ago, and so cannot stay in the meeting.
Gaya Ethaniel: No problem Stim. Hope you have a good day.
Fefonz Quan: Yes, see you next time Stim
Stim Morane: Thanks. It's very regrettable.
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, see you soon
Stim Morane: Shall I go ahead and claim the session, or leave that to one of you?
Scathach Rhiadra: which ever you like:)
Stim Morane: OK, I'll claim it and run, then.
Stim Morane: Sorry to dash off!
Scathach Rhiadra: bye:)
Gaya Ethaniel waves. :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Strannik :)
Strannik Zipper: greetings
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Strannik
Fefonz Quan: hello Strannik
Strannik Zipper: hello
Gaya Ethaniel: How do you translate/interpret 'appreciation' in your practice? My efforts in this consist of 'being inclusive' as mentioned before.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pila :)
Scathach Rhiadra: hmmm, to me it is just seeing whatever 'is' right now, I suppose:)
Fefonz Quan: yo Pila
Pila Mulligan: hello everyone
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Pila
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ... Scath ... that is true. Seeing is appreciation too.
Strannik Zipper: Hi Pila
Gaya Ethaniel: Seeing itself*
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Fefonz Quan: I also wondered about it Gaya, why is seeing appereciating?
Strannik Zipper: Is seeing related to knowing in this case?
Gaya Ethaniel: Well, it is easy for me to put 'seeing' aside ... so making time, efforts to see is an act of appreciation.
Fefonz Quan: Hey Tarmel
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Tarmel :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: hi All
Strannik Zipper nods to Tarmel
Scathach Rhiadra: maybe it is recognising that everything is as it is, without having to put your projections on it
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Tarmel
Fefonz Quan: i see... yes, my feelings are more towards what Scathach is describing
Gaya Ethaniel: mm... Scath, please say more?
Fefonz Quan: like appereciating is somehow an anti-dote of our regular concepts
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Fefonz Quan: the regular habit to classify anything as: good/bas/natural
Fefonz Quan: bad*
Tarmel Udimo: (sorry folks will have to slip away for a few mins)
Fefonz Quan: slip well Tarmel :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Strannik Zipper: so experience without labeling to start...
Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes I find it difficult not to attach 'value' judgements on things that I see.
Pila Mulligan: hi Qt
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Qt :)
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Qt
Fefonz Quan: so that's where i think appereciating 'gives us a hand'
Qt Core: hi all
Fefonz Quan: Hi Qt
Strannik Zipper nods to QT
Fefonz Quan: because for me it is not totally natural, but has some 'nice odor' to it
Gaya Ethaniel: it is not totally natural, but has some 'nice odor' to it - I don't get it >.<
Fefonz Quan: so it is like a pleasant atmosphere hovering over the appearances i see
Fefonz Quan: (but maybe i am wrong about it)
Scathach Rhiadra: seeing includes all that is, thoughts and feelings, emotions...
Strannik Zipper: My sense is that appreciation comes from a different "place" - where the intellect is not labeling, ego is not grasping, and time is no projected away from the present in any way
Fefonz Quan: but in a very very slight way
Scathach Rhiadra: they are all arisings, (if I am allowed to say that:)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello sophia :)
sophia Placebo: greeting all
sophia Placebo: hi gaya:)
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Sophia
Qt Core: hi sophia
Strannik Zipper nods to Sophia
Fefonz Quan: Hey Sophia
Gaya Ethaniel: Maybe an example could help ... I 'caught' myself laughing at someone's comment and got shocked at my behaviour.
Pila Mulligan: hi Sophia
Fefonz Quan: the laughing shocked you?
Fefonz Quan: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: like observing your thoughts?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes ...
Gaya Ethaniel: That feeling of shock and shame stayed with me for a long time.
Fefonz Quan: why, what's wrong with laughing?
Gaya Ethaniel: Well, I was making a judgement on that person whom I don't know well hence the laughing is being arrogant ... am I making sense?
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Strannik Zipper: It was a reaction?
Fefonz Quan: yes, though i think it is also very legitimate
Pila Mulligan: so oyu were laughing at rahther than laughing with
Gaya Ethaniel: It was a reaction that I don't normally notice ... so I was a bit surprised.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Pila.
Fefonz Quan: [13:19] Scathach Rhiadra: they are all arisings, (if I am allowed to say that:)
Fefonz Quan: can you say more Scath?
Strannik Zipper: Good point Fefonz
Scathach Rhiadra: well sometimes I notice I mistake appreciation, or just 'seeing' for the good feelings I have about something, but have to see the feelings too, almost like stepoing aside from the self, to include everything, to observe everything
Scathach Rhiadra: if that makes sense:)
Scathach Rhiadra: stepping*
Fefonz Quan: yes, you mean that the good feeling is just another part of the appearances we observe
Scathach Rhiadra: yes!
Strannik Zipper: good observation - is it possible that we lose appreciation by slipping from just appreciating to attachment feelings?
Pila Mulligan: wb Sophia
Gaya Ethaniel: wb sophia
sophia Placebo: ty
Fefonz Quan: i agree. i didn't meant 'feel good' and just indulge in that feeling.
Scathach Rhiadra: yes, that is what I think
Scathach Rhiadra: (didn't think you did Fefonz:)
Strannik Zipper: I think sometimes we can slip into an appreciative aware mode with no grasping, but grasping can come in very subtly and try to "own" the experience
Fefonz Quan: i meant, instead of seeing something at one of teh extremes 'pleasant/unpleasant/natural', we want to loose those judjments
Fefonz Quan: judgments.
Fefonz Quan: but for me, if i could do that purely, no appereciation was needed
Gaya Ethaniel nods and continues to listen.
Scathach Rhiadra: yes it is very subtle
Fefonz Quan: (and i also felt when heard it first time from Pema, that this is some ingeredient we 'force' into the practice
Fefonz Quan: )
Strannik Zipper: once self or grasping is present, it is very difficult not to fall into the comparitive, calculating, labeling mind
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Fefonz Quan: but maybe, as i say, it is some stick, a tool
Fefonz Quan: Yes Strannik, it is dificult
Scathach Rhiadra: and then we don't want to go the other way, being detached, not engaging with what appears, a very fine balancing act:)
Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed ... it's rather difficult ...
Fefonz Quan: right. so appereciatin puts us in some solid point, away from teh undesired extremes, even if it is not the total equinimity point.
Strannik Zipper: If we can catch ourselves in the act, we can see the grasping self with its calculating, labeling and inability to be present, and appreciate that - turn the situation on its head?
Strannik Zipper: Like you said, Fefonz, see it as just another arising?
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, or as Pema says, seeing is enough?
Fefonz Quan: yes, i think so strannik, though this may lead to an infinite loop of catching
Gaya Ethaniel: I was not toally happy with that I felt bad about myself for a while afterwards. But I just decided to stay with that feelings and explore why etc. Couldn't think of anything else to do.
Strannik Zipper: hmmmm....In my experience, the act of catching oneself, simply expands the amount of space, and all of the fragments one is watching, simply quiet of their own
Fefonz Quan: and in my experience, in situations like anger and guilt it takes some times to quiet
Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes it dissolves sometimes it doesn't in my expriences so far ... depending how new or 'serious' the event is I guess ...
Gaya Ethaniel nods @ Fefonz.
Strannik Zipper: Fefonz - me too - I find the more something has an emotional charge, the more difficult it is
Scathach Rhiadra: and the very act of catching yourself, can loosen the grip of the emotion
Fefonz Quan: I have another guess/hint about appereciatin, but no proof for ti
Scathach Rhiadra: oh, say more..
sophia Placebo: 8keeps them as memorie photoes in consciuos album
Fefonz Quan: i have a guts feeling that although now i think of it as 'not totally neutral', when in a state of real 'seeing', appereciatin comes naturally, without effort, as this is the pure way of being
Scathach Rhiadra: like sheer awareness
Fefonz Quan: (and maybe some wishful thinking here too)
Fefonz Quan: yes Scath
Pila Mulligan: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Strannik Zipper: Fefonz - the fact that appreciation arises without effort would seem to confirm your "hint"
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Fefonz Quan: sure, though fact here is a strange word
Strannik Zipper: true! - "observation" would probably be a better word here
Fefonz Quan: So in a way we come full circle to 'Play as Being' - play as appereciating
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Gaya Ethaniel: My appreciation mainly is about seeing all ... "observe with curiosity". I don't understand 'sheer appreciation', without efforts yet. Guess it will come with time and practice.
Fefonz Quan just came from 20 min practicing by a small pond here, with geese around, and appereciated teh geese poop layed in front of him :)
Scathach Rhiadra: heh:)
Gaya Ethaniel frowns and thinks, "how does one appreciate geese poop?"
Strannik Zipper: very organic and fertile :)
Fefonz Quan: just watch it in the grass, then dropping 'grass', 'poop', 'geese'....
Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds like I'm getting too much of usual meaning of 'appreciation' into what we discuss here.
Gaya Ethaniel: [13:37] Scathach Rhiadra: and the very act of catching yourself, can loosen the grip of the emotion
Gaya Ethaniel: Scath, can you please say a bit more about this?
sophia Placebo: hi genesis
Fefonz Quan: hi Gen
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello genesis :)
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, like Strannik said, simply catching yourself, everything quiets of its owm, seeing the emotion or feeling or judgement arising, you are no longer in its grasp, so to speak
Strannik Zipper nods to Genesis
genesis Zhangsun: Hello lovely people :)
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Gen
Gaya Ethaniel: ok :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Gen
genesis Zhangsun: and lovely rabbits
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: it is when you don't catch it that it 'controls' you
Qt Core: hi gen
Scathach Rhiadra: or you are lost in it
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Gaya Ethaniel: What do you do when things take time to quieten down? Just observe as usual?
Gaya Ethaniel: long time*
Strannik Zipper: My action movie analogy: you feel the gun of emotion poked into your ribs from behind, but you don't see the assailant. You suddenly turn around, pointing the gun of awareness at them, at which they turn and run away :)
Scathach Rhiadra: try to let go, maybe
Gaya Ethaniel: hm ... these days, I don't consciously try to let go, if that makes sense.
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm 'content' as long as I am aware of the feelings even those that make me feel uncomfortable.
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Gaya Ethaniel: oh ok
sophia Placebo: change something physical in your surrounding , dont know why , i just do it sometimes :)
genesis Zhangsun: its amazing how a small gesture of recognizing something is enough
Strannik Zipper: hmmmmm....interesting
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes change of scenery can be a good thing however small :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Alfred
genesis Zhangsun: to see it, makes it a choice
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Alfred
sophia Placebo: hi alfred
genesis Zhangsun: hey Alfred
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Alfred :)
Strannik Zipper: a good point - I find that when I am traveling someplace new, I slip into appreciation all of the time
Strannik Zipper: because I am out of habitual space
genesis Zhangsun: yes out of our ordinary expectations
genesis Zhangsun: we are clued into the fact that we really don't know everything about where we are
Gaya Ethaniel: True Strannik, I notice and sometimes get excited over even mundane objects if in new surrounding.
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, our habitual tendencies:)
Fefonz Quan: and then i try sometimes to feel like a tourist in my home twon
Strannik Zipper: For years I thought that travel was very important for me to enjoy life, but I finally realized it wasn't the trip as much as it was the quality of mind
sophia Placebo: ^^ yes in travell every small silly detail is magically intersting
Fefonz Quan nods
sophia Placebo: quality of mind in what sense?
Fefonz Quan: and now i found the opposite: living in another state for 1.5 years, every shoort trip home feels like heaven!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Pila Mulligan: hi Yakuzza
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuza :)
genesis Zhangsun: hi yakuzza
Fefonz Quan: hi Yakk
sophia Placebo: hi yakuzza
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Yakuzza
Strannik Zipper: When I am in strange and new place, I am drinking in my senses, purely observing, and my calculating brain shuts up. There is no sense of self in these moments and no time - just the experience, appreciation and a feeling of lightness
genesis Zhangsun: why do we have the tendency to make the extraordinary ordinary eventually
Fefonz Quan: can you say more about 'no time' Strannik?
Strannik Zipper: perhaps I should say that the quality of time shifts - I am rapt in the present moment in a larger sense
Fefonz Quan nods thanks.
sophia Placebo: to gen : we wouldnt point to the dog with joy and luaghter as we did as kids :) guess something in our way of expressing our new awarness
Strannik Zipper: I think we become more referential to past experiences and thoughts, which take away some of the "newness" of experience
sophia Placebo: something like -grown up poeple dont point to dog with joy -
Fefonz Quan: Gen, maybe because after we classify something known in our directory of events/things, when we see it again, we jump to that drawer instead of experiencing the moment
Strannik Zipper: we say "oh, a dog - I know all about dogs already"
genesis Zhangsun: yes I understand the usefulness of doing so, not pointing at dogs and being able to use references for survival
genesis Zhangsun: but with a bit of awareness, breathing space into those references, perhaps they can be tools without dominating the experience
Fefonz Quan: we all hope so Gen :)
Strannik Zipper: genesis - I think you have something there
genesis Zhangsun: something like awareness creates more awareness
Fefonz Quan: and more joy
genesis Zhangsun: if you can lock memories in with a layer of awareness perhaps when they reappear they are paired with the awareness that this is only a reference
genesis Zhangsun: and the whole thing accelerates
Strannik Zipper: or perhaps if you are conscious of what the mind is doing in the moment, you can add space on the fly
Fefonz Quan: no need to store that layer each time, just keep it with you
genesis Zhangsun: yes Strannik I like that
genesis Zhangsun: and right Fefonz
genesis Zhangsun: no need to "store" or "lock in"
Fefonz Quan: (like the field of thornes - instead of covering it with leather - just wear sandals)
Strannik Zipper: For myself, If I try to store or lock-in, it is likely to turn back into grasping
genesis Zhangsun: yes very much so
genesis Zhangsun: so how to create space, awareness without grasping?
Fefonz Quan: i practiced some times eating meditation, that focuses on what we speak i think
Fefonz Quan: each bitebecomes new, exciting, full of colors, tastes and feelings
sophia Placebo: goodnight all
Strannik Zipper: awareness is the best spice mix there is!
Pila Mulligan: bye Sophia
genesis Zhangsun: nighs sophia
Fefonz Quan: just because of the awareness of it.
Yakuzza Lethecus: night sophia
Scathach Rhiadra: night Sophia
Gaya Ethaniel nods. When I did that during a retreat, people thought I disliked the food >.<
genesis Zhangsun: *night
Strannik Zipper: night sophia
Fefonz Quan: bye Sophia
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye sophia.
sophia Placebo: nice discussion :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Because I was eating so slowly :)
Fefonz Quan: yes, one of the main things i observed, that regularly when we chew one bite, we already get the next one on the spoon
Fefonz Quan: so - already planning for the future moment, instead of enjoying the current one
Strannik Zipper: army mess halls and large families often teach one to jam it in, or you won't get any
Fefonz Quan: yes strannik, again survival undermines awareness
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm that reminds me of when I was in the Himalaya, sometimes I would be the only person not taking photographs ofthe beautiful sights
Scathach Rhiadra: instead of just experienceing what was in front of them, they had to try and capture it for the future
Fefonz Quan nods
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Strannik Zipper: perhaps some habits are useful at a stage of our growth, but are meant to be transcended
Fefonz Quan: though it is a big wonder, why our 'natural' survival instincts seem so oposite to awareness
Fefonz Quan: opposite*
Scathach Rhiadra: always protecting or coseting our self maybe
Strannik Zipper: under conditions of stress, our awareness sometime dissipates, if we couldn't perform by habit, we often wouldn't survive
Gaya Ethaniel: Not being the strongest animal must be a part of the reason perhaps.
Fefonz Quan: Gaya, we are the strongest animal, but then we fight among ourselves
Strannik Zipper: some of the best, most efficient (and kindest) martial arts are built on habits first, and then substituting habits with awareness
Gaya Ethaniel: No I was thinking more about prehistoric times when we were surrounded by predators.
Gaya Ethaniel: A lot to think, remember and do in order to survive in that environment,
Fefonz Quan: i know. my ponit was that we are still surrounded
Fefonz Quan: point*
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes that is also true.
Strannik Zipper: building habits are easier and more efficient in the beginning - military basic training is based on this
Fefonz Quan: i agree Strannik. it is true also for playing music
Strannik Zipper: right - awareness is the most basic level of our existence, but it is also the most advanced stages of our development
Fefonz Quan: but then we may ask - is an'awarenes oriented' culture doomed by evolution?
Strannik Zipper: how so, Fefonz?
genesis Zhangsun: i might argue that awareness is key to our survival
Fefonz Quan: (many tibetian ask themselves that question not hypothetically)
genesis Zhangsun: your going to have to expand on that Fefonz
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: But didn't India win its independence from the British by that kind of awareness?
Fefonz Quan: but if our survival habit are opposing awareness - we have a problem
Fefonz Quan: Yes Gaya, that is one single example in a long history
Strannik Zipper: I think only in early stages of development is that true
genesis Zhangsun: really?
genesis Zhangsun: is it really opposing?
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps it is just one layer-habit- next layer awareness
Strannik Zipper: evolution is always ultimately TOWARDS awareness - there is no where else for it to go
genesis Zhangsun: a musician doesn't practice just to produce more of the same
Yakuzza Lethecus: i swap over to the cafe, cya!
Fefonz Quan: surely not for the musician Gen
genesis Zhangsun: i agree Strannik
Fefonz Quan: well, other will say differently about evolution
genesis Zhangsun: well we've evolved to have this conversation right now
genesis Zhangsun: thats pretty good evolution-awareness working together
Strannik Zipper: Awareness takes longer to develop, but it will always be a step ahead of habit
genesis Zhangsun: ;)
Fefonz Quan: i agree Gen :)
Qt Core: bye all, even (or as ) i was silent it was a nice session ;-)
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night Qt.
Strannik Zipper: cheers QT
genesis Zhangsun: night QT
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Qt:)
Pila Mulligan: bye
Fefonz Quan: though statistically we are much more scarce than many fatal genetic diseases, who's carriers are still alive
Strannik Zipper: against all odds, it was inevitable that we would survive, because awareness before we came into existence, demanded it
Fefonz Quan: Strannik, we are not talking only about habits vs. awareness. ...
Fefonz Quan: please elaborate about it Strannik
Strannik Zipper: that is to say, that awareness is not necessarily a product of evolution - more likely evolution is a product of awareness
Strannik Zipper: on one level, awareness must be cultivated and practiced, but on another, it is unavoidable
Fefonz Quan: that sounds like a good belief, i agree. but how does awareness produce evolution?
genesis Zhangsun: must go!
genesis Zhangsun: nice discussion
genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone
Fefonz Quan: bye Gen!
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Gen
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye gen.
Pila Mulligan: bye gen
Strannik Zipper: You would only be able to observe this on a small scale
Strannik Zipper: the belief comes when you extrapolate a small observation into a bit principle
Strannik Zipper: er big
Strannik Zipper: but one can see that ability and function increase as awareness increases
Fefonz Quan: can you give an example in small scale?
Strannik Zipper: First you have to question what evolution consists of - what consists of change towards something "more developed"
Fefonz Quan: evolution doesn't have to be toward 'more developed', btu toward 'more fit for its environment'
Pila Mulligan: there are quite a few spiritual beliefs along the line that god's will to be conscious is the purpose or source of being
Strannik Zipper: right, Pila, but I am thinking that the principle behind that may be observed without the belief
Fefonz Quan: well god's will is really beyond anything i can say
Pila Mulligan: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Strannik Zipper: so the question is, can a being become more fit for its environment without an increaase in awareness (especially knowing that there must be adaptation to change in environment)
Fefonz Quan: having enough difficulty with free will :0
Gaya Ethaniel: :D
Gaya Ethaniel: I just stick with appreciation.
Gaya Ethaniel: For now at least :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Fefonz Quan: yep :)
Gaya Ethaniel: But it really is an intersting idea Strannik, awareness drives evolution.
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Strannik Zipper: or you could say that fitness is built on awareness
Pila Mulligan: hi kenji
Gaya Ethaniel: I must go unfortunately. Late here ... thanks and have a good day/night :)
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Gaya:)
Pila Mulligan: bye Gaya
Fefonz Quan: i see your point Starnnik, but the problem arises later, when we have intelligent aware being, some of them strong and violent, and others strong maybe, but non-violent. who will survive?
Strannik Zipper: reminds me of an Ashleigh Brilliant postcard "I don't know the answer, but I certainly appreciate the problem"
Fefonz Quan: night Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel waves and poofs.
Fefonz Quan: the 'spiritual' tribe or teh 'cold technological' tribe
Strannik Zipper: I think that higher levels of fitness require more cooperation
Scathach Rhiadra: and I must go too, good night all, Namasté
Fefonz Quan: namaste Scath
Pila Mulligan: bye Scath
Pila Mulligan: Fefonz, the answer may need an adjustment as to the idea of survival
Pila Mulligan: strong and violent may appear to succeed, when in fact they fail
Fefonz Quan listens
Pila Mulligan: take Bush for example
Strannik Zipper: the cold war presented us with the awareness that previous modes of survival will actually result in our destruction, for example
Pila Mulligan: he pleased his supporters immensely for five years or so
Pila Mulligan: who's to say our known history represents the only epoch when sentient humans and a civilization evolved?
Fefonz Quan: noone said so Pila
Pila Mulligan: if the Bush folks vaporized us, maybe in another ten million years we'd be back again
Fefonz Quan: why would them vaposie us?
Pila Mulligan: by accident is one way, like Iraq
Strannik Zipper: right now, survival would seem to require awareness, but we could fail to acquire that awareness and not survive
Pila Mulligan: we have a lot of time to survive and evolve in, and as several sages have said,soft overcomes the firm
Strannik Zipper: right, Pila - martials arts demonstrate this - the most deadly and effective martial arts are also the most kind and awareness-based
Fefonz Quan: i agree with Srannik on some 'global' level, but point out that while some of us might develop great awareness, other that don't might 'vaporize' us all meanwhile (using pilas word)
Pila Mulligan: yes, it is something to worry about :)
Pila Mulligan: but then just wait ten milion years and see if they do int next time
Fefonz Quan: well, this is a circular argument Pila ;-)
Pila Mulligan: no, it is linear
Pila Mulligan: the Sun burns out eventually
Strannik Zipper: that is the dangerous stage of development that we are in
Fefonz Quan nods
Strannik Zipper: It is a paradox - only by contacting that which is never born, can we continue to live
Fefonz Quan would love to hear Pema's response to that one.
Fefonz Quan: he might say 'this is all 'inside teh story'
Fefonz Quan: '
Pila Mulligan: this is inside the Bhagavad Gita :)
Fefonz Quan: but if we transcend the 'story', things may lok differently
Strannik Zipper: perhaps - I see it as the arising of several simultaneous perspectives
Fefonz Quan: teh bhagavad Gita is a good story :0
Fefonz Quan: :)
Pila Mulligan: I think in most tradtional perspsctives the story may be inescapable
Fefonz Quan: So - can we effect the story by increasing our awareness?
Pila Mulligan: that is the story :)
Strannik Zipper: Arjuna doesn't get out ot going to battle, just because he is taught self-transcendence and awareness
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: the story is the karma
Strannik Zipper: but perhaps he brings some of that awareness in and changes the battle a bit
Pila Mulligan: maybe
Pila Mulligan: but a big part of what Krishna was saing is 'go ahed, Arjuna, do it'
Fefonz Quan: i thought on some level he is not fighting outside others that are less awared, but fighting the symbols of his inside demonds
Strannik Zipper: there is something else here - there is a survival habit which is somewhat "natural", but I think it can be twisted into something more monstrous by the calculating mind
Fefonz Quan: demons*
Pila Mulligan: yes and yes
Strannik Zipper: so the problem isn't just survival habits, per se
Fefonz Quan: yes, monsterous by the calculating mind and the blind belief mind
Pila Mulligan: if Arjuna had been frothing at the mouth, someone else would have been in his chariot
Strannik Zipper: both of which are fragmentary distortions of being
Fefonz Quan: and parts of being as well, awkwardly
Fefonz Quan: (my que sign, leaving silently. bye guys _/!\_ )
Pila Mulligan: "Stillness and tranquillity set things in order in the universe"
Pila Mulligan: bye Fefonz
Strannik Zipper: (nice catting with you! take care)
Strannik Zipper: er chatting
Fefonz Quan: (dogging this :)
Pila Mulligan: well, that was fun
Strannik Zipper: wow! time passed :)
Pila Mulligan: 2 quick hours :)
Strannik Zipper: well, my survival instinct is kicking in, telling me I have to get back to work :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: enjoy
Strannik Zipper: see you around
Strannik Zipper: shall I stop the recording?
Pila Mulligan: bye bye Strannik
Pila Mulligan: are you GoC?
Pila Mulligan: you can, or it will automatically turn off when we leave
Strannik Zipper: more AoC, which was formerly RoC
Pila Mulligan: ?
Pila Mulligan: GoC = Guardian (host) for this session
Pila Mulligan: what is AoC
Strannik Zipper: oh! hahaha - never mind - no the guardian left
Pila Mulligan: ;)
Strannik Zipper: later, then
Pila Mulligan: bye