2009.05.06 19:00 - Teaching and learning? failure and shame

The Guardian for this meeting was aurel Miles. The comments are by aurel Miles.

aurel Miles: hello paradise
Paradise Tennant: hello :))
aurel Miles: how are you?
Paradise Tennant: very well thank you .. and you :)
aurel Miles: just fine
Paradise Tennant: :))
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
aurel Miles: do you come to this session as a usual thing?
aurel Miles: Hi Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Aurel
stevenaia Michinaga: welcome back Paradise
Paradise Tennant: stumbled in last sunday night for the first time :)) hiya steve :)
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I am guardian Sunday and I used to do it tonight as well, thank you Aurel for freeing up my Wednesday night
aurel Miles: yet - here you are
aurel Miles: shall i step aside?
stevenaia Michinaga: I usually like the fountain low
stevenaia Michinaga: I was going to assist on your first evening
buddha Nirvana: hi everyone...dont worry steve:)
stevenaia Michinaga: as you need
Paradise Tennant: hello buddha
aurel Miles: Hello Buddha
buddha Nirvana: hi:)
buddha Nirvana: hi pila:)
aurel Miles: hi pilka
aurel Miles: oops
aurel Miles: Pila
Pila Mulligan: hi buddha, aurel, steve and Paradise
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Buddha, Pila
Paradise Tennant: hi pila :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Sky
Sky Szimmer: hi all
buddha Nirvana: hello sky:)
aurel Miles: Hi Sky
Paradise Tennant: hi sky :))
stevenaia Michinaga: welcome sky
aurel Miles: does anyone have a topic, this evening?
stevenaia Michinaga: Funny you should ask
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
aurel Miles: is that a yes or a no?
stevenaia Michinaga: one of the thing I wonder about is the disconnect between where one is... emotionally or in their presence and how to explain or teach another how to get there
aurel Miles: well
aurel Miles: i wonder why you would want to direct someone else's progress
stevenaia Michinaga: for instance, how do you explan anger to someone who does not get angry, not that that is smethign you would wnat to teach
aurel Miles: i chafe at that
Pila Mulligan: not sure I understand the topic
stevenaia Michinaga: but the opposite, how can someoen who does not get angery share that experience with people who do in a teaching way
aurel Miles: i don't try to teach
aurel Miles: i don't believe in it
stevenaia Michinaga: my interest is in the process of learning peace
stevenaia Michinaga: don;t belive in what
stevenaia Michinaga: teaching
stevenaia Michinaga: ?
aurel Miles: i do not believe in trying to teach others about emotional development
aurel Miles: it is an individual path
aurel Miles: i am opposed to trying to teach others that kind of thing
aurel Miles: quite vehemently
Pila Mulligan: why?
stevenaia Michinaga: but there are people who want to learn
aurel Miles: and they will
aurel Miles: on their path
aurel Miles: in their way
stevenaia Michinaga: what can be offered then
aurel Miles: there is an old sutra
aurel Miles: "if you see the buddha on the road, kill him"
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Corvi
Paradise Tennant: :)))
aurel Miles: anyone who is trying to teach you something of this nature
aurel Miles: is really talking to himself
aurel Miles: In first nations culture
aurel Miles: we believe
aurel Miles: that you can only tell your own story
aurel Miles: and that people will take from it
aurel Miles: what they need
aurel Miles: not what you intend to give
aurel Miles: and in judaism
aurel Miles: it is a sin to try to teach these thing
aurel Miles: one seeks learning
Pila Mulligan: hi Corvi
aurel Miles: and it is the task of the seeker to learn
stevenaia Michinaga: how does one seek without questions being answered?
aurel Miles: the answers - as the old saying goes
aurel Miles: are within you
aurel Miles: they are not inside anyone else
aurel Miles: your answers
aurel Miles: are inside you
aurel Miles: you observe, relate, consider and learn
stevenaia Michinaga: I do agree, actually, and see what you say clearly
aurel Miles: i would really like to hear what people have obeserved in their own weekly thoughts and meditations.
stevenaia Michinaga: yet there are other paths
Paradise Tennant: in many traditions that thought is a precept ..but often there is instruction .. a teacher student role .. that is beneficial if properly undertaken on both sides :)) to develop what we all have within .. recognizing that each is on their own path
Paradise Tennant: :)
buddha Nirvana: this week. i've experienced some sensations that im not too familiar with
aurel Miles: oh? like what Buddha?
buddha Nirvana: i wouldnt be able to describe them so you'd understand. they were just slightly alien to me
aurel Miles: well
aurel Miles: as you mentioned them, might it not be possible that you wanted to say something about them?
buddha Nirvana: sure. i can describe how i reacted. at night i awoke with these sensations, not to unsettle me but effected me in a way for me to be slightly dissorientated
aurel Miles: can you be more precise?
Paradise Tennant: waking from a dream?
aurel Miles: or maybe you'd like to tell us what it was that made you think deeply about them
buddha Nirvana: following my practice i try to be mindfull of my bodily sensations at all times. these sensations were slightly alien.
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pema
buddha Nirvana: alein*
aurel Miles: Hi Pema
buddha Nirvana: hi pema:)
aurel Miles: and?
Pema Pera: hi everybody!
buddha Nirvana: theres no conclusion, im just conveying to you my aobservation
Paradise Tennant: hi pema :))
buddha Nirvana: observation*
aurel Miles: i see - thank you
Pila Mulligan: I think Steve's initial idea was really kind of a question ... is it possible to help someone transcend antagonism, for example -- or how to share a modest approach with an immodest person
stevenaia Michinaga: share may be the word that applies
Pila Mulligan: it may not be possible
Pila Mulligan: the limits being exactly those aurel referred to, a kind of a natural inability to tell anyone anything, because they have to get it themselves
Paradise Tennant: :) I think we learn our behaviours our emotioanl reactions from how others behave . maybe the best way to share that is to be that :))
Pema Pera: but anyone has small cracks in their armor . . . and when you see those, you might be able to find a tiny opening there, just for a moment
Sky Szimmer: i think it would be hard to share an experience if the other person has had no exposure to it. It would be trying to describe a taste, like what sweetness is like.
Pema Pera: and yes, Paradise, there may not be any need to say or do something
Paradise Tennant: :))
stevenaia Michinaga: but as Aurel said, learning through observing
aurel Miles: and experiencing
aurel Miles: and sharing experiences
Pema Pera: and Sky, if we cannot show the sweetness to someone that we wish they showed, we can perhaps show them a taste of the bitterness that they themselves used to protect themselves . . . .
Pila Mulligan: but then there is also the perennial problem of dealing with a bully, what do you tell your kid -- hit them back, try to get away, reasona with them ...?
stevenaia Michinaga: but isn;t that teaching in a not so overt way
aurel Miles: you tell a kid who is being bullied
aurel Miles: to tell everyone they know
aurel Miles: so that their comunity can protect them
aurel Miles: people are basically good
aurel Miles: and they will not tolerate cruelty if they are given the opportunity to do otherwise
buddha Nirvana: yes, people will always atleast want to appear as being moral
aurel Miles: you do no engage or teach a child to engage
aurel Miles: with violence
aurel Miles: you shun it
Paradise Tennant: hmmm if history is any test ..usually it is the good well meaning citizens that wreck the most havoc.. the out right criminals do relatively little damage.. the concentration camps..military campaigns are all conducted by conforming well meaning souls .. there was a chilling photographic spread in life magazine recently which showed the camp guards at aushwitz having a picnic .. they were all nice looking kids :))
aurel Miles: i was hoping
Paradise Tennant: who were basically good :)
aurel Miles: we could share some of our personal observations
aurel Miles: and steer toward more concrete discussions
aurel Miles: just an idea
Pema Pera: for me, personally, I see more and more in my own life what Paradise just indicatied: that the road to hell is paved with right intentions . . . . so easy to fall into traps of trying to help in too narrow a way (not as extreme as your example, Paradise, but still in that direction)
aurel Miles: do you have a story about that?
aurel Miles: a moment when you saw it clearly?
Pema Pera: many stories of seeing how in retrospect I have hurt people, unintentionally
Pema Pera: by not telling the whole truth for example
Pema Pera: because I was trying to protect them (and me!)
Pema Pera: by avoiding "inconvenient truths"
aurel Miles: i think a lot of people do that
aurel Miles: when did you do it last?
aurel Miles: what happened?
Pema Pera: I would have to tell a long personal story, to give the context
Pema Pera: but what happened was what usually happens:
Pema Pera: once I see, really see
Pema Pera: I realize "seeing is enough"
Pema Pera: and nothing needs to be done, changed, altered, beyond a simple acknowledgment
Pema Pera: even with a sense of shame and regret, the main thing is to avoid making similar mistakes
aurel Miles nods
Pema Pera: and the only way to do that is by really seeing what damage I have done, unwittingly
Pema Pera: and so we all learn, day by day, step by step
Pema Pera: and the more sensitive we get, the more flaws we begin to see in ourselves, really funny :-)
Paradise Tennant: mostly I think it lies with us believing so firmly we are distinct and separate when in reality we are very much one connected thing .. by surrendering to what really is .. the disconnect diminishes .. bit by bit
Pema Pera: yes
Paradise Tennant: ;))
Pema Pera: it requires double courage: to see what you have done and feel ashamed about it; and the courage to then move on and trusting your own intuition, based on seeing, to learn to stop making those mistakes
Sky Szimmer: for me, this week has been about seeing that I have many many preferences about life
aurel Miles: such as?
Paradise Tennant: :)) sandals and burgers on the patio :)))
aurel Miles: those are good things
Sky Szimmer: wanting people to like me, wanting one reality v. another., eerything really.
stevenaia Michinaga: grins
buddha Nirvana: i went through a phase of not speaking to anyone to avoid any knock on unfavoured effects my speech may cause = refering to pemas comment on self observation
aurel Miles nods
buddha Nirvana: i think anything we say potentailly will have a negative impact, i think thats perhaps how we become more mindful about how and what we say
Pema Pera: yes, that is tempting :)
Pema Pera: not making mistakes is impossible; acknowledging them and learning from them is
Sky Szimmer: but really, things are as they are, and it is my preferences and aversions that color the experience
Paradise Tennant: ;)) yes ..
aurel Miles: mmm hmmm
buddha Nirvana: sure sky, thats the truth for ourselves, we cant know what impact these things will have on others
Sky Szimmer: in a way, it doesn't matter
buddha Nirvana: ultimately perhaps nothing matters, but we have to be responsible in this reality we are in, a sense of ownership has to be the case, i think
aurel Miles: nice little bell
aurel Miles: isn't it?
aurel Miles: ownership?
aurel Miles: or maybe it's enough to be part of the flow
aurel Miles: ?
buddha Nirvana: over who we are what we say, and how we come accross
aurel Miles: i do my best to be true to myself
aurel Miles: i try to be kind
aurel Miles: the rest - i have no control over the rest
Paradise Tennant: yes .. at least once a day I try to focus on just one word ..surrender .. to the moment the place ..the circumstance .. recognzing it should not be any different :)
aurel Miles: abnd when i think i do
aurel Miles: i screw things up
Pema Pera: Trying to be more contrete, Aurel, in answering your questions: learning to feel ashamed has been an interesting cathartic move for me recently. For a long time I have rebelled against notions of "sin" that I grew up with in a Calvinist Dutch reformed family. And shame seemed totally wrong headed. But now I am learning that it is actually very helpful to acknowledge it, allowing myself to really feel bad about something without papering it over, and then to move on
aurel Miles: that's interesting
aurel Miles: i was thinking about failure today
aurel Miles: in the same way
Pema Pera: even if I did something wrong that I couldn't possibly have known and seen . . .
aurel Miles: A curator i know told me she encourages artists to work on projects that she knows will fail
aurel Miles: because the experience they have from that will be more valuable than a successful project
Pema Pera: :-)
Paradise Tennant: more memorable .. :))
aurel Miles: and i am trying to see all of life that way
aurel Miles: my family is terrifiec of failure
aurel Miles: terrified
aurel Miles: so when i decided to move thousands of miles away
aurel Miles: to go to school
buddha Nirvana: nite everyone, be well
aurel Miles: and then decided to be a writer
buddha Nirvana: thanks you
Paradise Tennant: be well buddha :))
aurel Miles: Goodnight Buddha
buddha Nirvana: ty:)
aurel Miles: they were ashamed
aurel Miles: disgusted
aurel Miles: and they have ridiculed me
aurel Miles: and i have had failures
aurel Miles: i've been thinking about that today
aurel Miles: i'm not sorry.
Paradise Tennant: the important part of the process is not the end but the means ..
stevenaia Michinaga: sham, if you are open to your actions, and ackknowledge them, what shame will come of it
stevenaia Michinaga: shema
stevenaia Michinaga: shame
aurel Miles: knowing i have failed sometimes and letting myself accept it - allows me to try more new things
Paradise Tennant: hmmm .. i never consider anything a failure if I have tried ..
Paradise Tennant: much bigger loss not to try
aurel Miles: well - one day i'll show you a few failures
aurel Miles: real ones
aurel Miles: with lots of effort invested
aurel Miles: It's ok to try and fail.
aurel Miles: but it doesn't make a failure into a success
Pema Pera: what I mean, Steve, is that by shrugging off mistakes, telling myself they are learning experiences, without really deeply feeling the consequences of my actions, I know that I have often lived in ways that had not as much depth as could have been the case -- hence shame as a magnifying lense, so to speak, or thermometer, how to say
aurel Miles: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: awww
Pila Mulligan: as Sky said, things are as they are, and it is our likes and dislikes that color experience
stevenaia Michinaga: aurel, isn't the success (in failure) is what you learn or take from the failure
Paradise Tennant: hmm one person's miserable failure would be another's triumph .:)
aurel Miles: Steve - I'm not much for relativism
aurel Miles: if you wrote a piece for publication and it was rejected
aurel Miles: that is a failire
Pema Pera: (I'll have to sneak out, RL calling, Tokyo hotel check-out time ... bye everybody)
aurel Miles: if you couldn't complete an assignment
Pila Mulligan: sayonara Pema-san
aurel Miles: that's a failure
stevenaia Michinaga: bye pema
aurel Miles: ruined a painting
aurel Miles: failure
aurel Miles: goodnight Pema
aurel Miles: or good morening
aurel Miles: i am not afraid to call a spade a spoade
aurel Miles: spade
aurel Miles: as cecily cardew once said
aurel Miles: and unlike her companion Gwendl=olyn
aurel Miles: Gwendolyn
aurel Miles: I am not afraid to say I HAVe seen a spade
aurel Miles: and i HAVE seen many failures
Pila Mulligan: “Maturity is a bitter disappointment for which no remedy exists, unless laughter can be said to remedy anything.” Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
Paradise Tennant: hmm rejection from someone is not a failure
Paradise Tennant: it is rejection
Paradise Tennant: but not failure..
aurel Miles: and i don't want to pretend that they were anything else, even if i did learn from them. just like i don't want to pretend my successes were anything else. I would really prefer it if we could observe the silences in this session
aurel Miles: it's a personal request
aurel Miles: but i really prefer to have those spots of silence
aurel Miles: anyway - not to be bossy, just thought i'd say
Sky Szimmer: Adios. Nice chatting.
aurel Miles: And now I must go - thank you everyone.
stevenaia Michinaga: :) I must be off, thank you all
Pila Mulligan: bye Sky
Paradise Tennant: thanks kindly .. really interesting :))
Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
Paradise Tennant: good nite all :))
Pila Mulligan: bye Paradise
Paradise Tennant: good night pila . nice to see you again
Pila Mulligan: yes, see you next tme
Paradise Tennant: big wave from toronto
Pila Mulligan: there is an intersting ethcis workshop tomorrow at Kira Cafe, 2 pm SLT
Paradise Tennant: would still be a work
Pila Mulligan: ahh :)
Pila Mulligan: well, have a nice evening
Paradise Tennant: and you :)
Pila Mulligan: thanks, bye bye