2009.05.12 01:00 - When is an escape not an escape?

The Guardian for this meeting was Wester Kiranov. The comments are by Wester Kiranov.

 Strannik Zipper came in right at the clock, and we introduced ourselves.

Wester Kiranov: hi strannik
Strannik Zipper: greetings!
Wester Kiranov: I don't think we have met before, but this is not your first time here, right?
Strannik Zipper: That is correct - I'm technically one of the fill-in people for here
Wester Kiranov: OK
Strannik Zipper: Are you in Holland?
Wester Kiranov: yes, how did you know?
Strannik Zipper: name and language ability
Strannik Zipper: plus it is not unusual to find Dutch people not far from anything that Piet is involved with
Strannik Zipper: er Pema
Wester Kiranov: that's true
Strannik Zipper: So how did you come to be here?
Wester Kiranov: I went to some of the kira summer schools, back in 2001 and 2002
Wester Kiranov: and I met Piet there, and some of the others. Themn later they started kira cafe. And PaB.
Strannik Zipper: Nice! where was the summer school held?
Wester Kiranov: And you? Where are you from, how did you get here?
Wester Kiranov: The summer school was in Amherst
Strannik Zipper: I met Pema at a Time, Space and Knowledge retreat about 19 years ago in California
Strannik Zipper: Two weeks of doing experiential exercises similar to the type that are done here and in Kira
Strannik Zipper: and then I rediscovered some of his work on the internet
Wester Kiranov: were you on SL already, or did you come here because of PaB/kira?
Strannik Zipper: I was on SL already
Wester Kiranov: I wasn't (you can tell by my name) ;-)
Strannik Zipper: Well this group is one good reason to be here
Wester Kiranov: I think so
Strannik Zipper: There is a lot happening here now

Strannik asked me what I was investigating, and I told him I had volunteered not to intoxicate myself. That was a good topic and we stayed with it. Sophia Placebo joined the conversation too.

Strannik Zipper: So are there any primary aspects of being that you have been looking into?
Wester Kiranov: I don't quite get your question. primary?
Strannik Zipper: anything in the forefront of your investigations?
Wester Kiranov: I was at Stim's discussion group last thursday, and I volunteered not to intoxicate myself for a week. Which is surprisingly hard.
Wester Kiranov: All the things I am using to get away from myself and others
Strannik Zipper: that can be very hard - especially when the pressure is on
Strannik Zipper: I have all of my favorite "escapes"
Wester Kiranov: I did not know I used so many escapes - but that is one of the points of the exercise
Strannik Zipper: I find that I most want an escape when I am reacting to something
sophia Placebo: greetings
Wester Kiranov: hi sophia
Strannik Zipper: greetings sophia
Wester Kiranov: brb
Wester Kiranov: back
Strannik Zipper: sophia, we were talking about doing an exercise in which one resolves not to indulge in particular forms of escape that one is used to for a particular amount of time
sophia Placebo: great topic
sophia Placebo: what was the thoughts on table?
Strannik Zipper: I was just commenting that I notice that my own desire for an escape of some kind is stronger when I am reacting to some person or situation
Wester Kiranov: and that when you start paying attention to this kind of thing it's amazing how many things you use for escape
Strannik Zipper: yeah, you can literally design a whole "lifestyle" around escapes
sophia Placebo: so insight is the first step right?
Strannik Zipper: most likely
Wester Kiranov: I suppose it always is
sophia Placebo: or recognition of the case and its conditions and reasons
Wester Kiranov: almost always
Wester Kiranov: insight in your personal style of escaping. So you can escape the escaping.
Strannik Zipper: Other than being provoked by a "reaction" of some sort, I also notice that an escape is almost always a form of distraction of some kind
sophia Placebo: the thing is sometime it is hard to tell is it escape or just sittin back and letting the storm pass for me
sophia Placebo: how is it distraction?
Strannik Zipper: well, it may be possible that some escapes are well designed - a good conscious exercise in taking a step back
Strannik Zipper: and useful
Strannik Zipper: then perhaps it isn't really an escape in the sense we are talking about it
Wester Kiranov: I think it depends on whether you would be able to face the storm if you tried, and only you yourself have some idea about that
sophia Placebo: true , but on long term i think that is escape , but in the long term the habit is well established
Strannik Zipper: right, well If I angry at someone, it is often useful for me to go for a walk or do something else - if I try to face the person I am angry at, it might not go too well right away
Strannik Zipper: but not facing one's situation by substituting a distraction can become a habit
Wester Kiranov: right - and someone else would be able to face anger without harm being done, and for them doing the same would be an escape
Strannik Zipper: Wester, that sounds right
sophia Placebo: confrontation is not always the right choice, it is the situation in which you are able to confront but you choose to step back , escaping is a cumulative mechanisim for unresolved issues , its meant to pretend that no problem there in life and by not thinking about it the distraction is less
sophia Placebo: but due the comulative effect it has , the next time escape bocome more urgent than the first
Wester Kiranov: there are other ways to deal with an angry situation than confrontation or escape
Strannik Zipper: right, so it isn't the external thing that one does, but rather the internal reason
Strannik Zipper: anger is only one example
sophia Placebo: true wester
Wester Kiranov: yes, but it's the example we're using now (I think)
sophia Placebo: well i guess anger is one way of escaping
Strannik Zipper: I think the primary thing escape removes us from is awareness
sophia Placebo: agrees
Wester Kiranov: yes, and that does make it a bit strange to try and be aware of it
Wester Kiranov: some weird loop
Strannik Zipper: I find that if I want to escape present awareness, I don't like what is coming up in that awareness, perhaps because it threatens something I am identified with
Wester Kiranov: I want to be aware of what I'm escaping from, but then I notice something, and I just run away faster
sophia Placebo: awareness of our weak points and our potentials i guess
Strannik Zipper: I have caught myself wanting to escape, and tried to just stay present, and I could, but there was a point at which it became too much, and so I let myself have the escape
Strannik Zipper: but even consciously delaying the escape was helpful
Strannik Zipper: I think I know what you mean by "run away faster"
Strannik Zipper: I have also noticed that I could avoid the escape longer if I did not identify with various thoughts coming up in the moment of painful awareness
sophia Placebo: i found my self escaping but didnt know why , i slow down my run , stand still and looked back , what im afraid of ,what im annoyed about ,why i do need to run ,why i need not to run for
Strannik Zipper: interesting, sophia, did you learn what was making you run?
sophia Placebo: almost , life is not as easy as math :)
Strannik Zipper: hahaha - yeah
Strannik Zipper: and the anwers aren't always in the back of the book either
Wester Kiranov: :)
sophia Placebo: yep
Strannik Zipper: I did feel a bit of consolation lately - I was in a situation (project management-wise) that usually freaks me out - but I was able to step back a bit, and let it roll over, without trying to control everything, nor give weight to all of the thoughts about it, and things went more smoothly
Strannik Zipper: So I saw a ray of hope at the end of the tunnel!
Wester Kiranov: great
Strannik Zipper: or insight, perhaps
Strannik Zipper: it is amazing how much thoughts can simply drain energy or cause stress
Wester Kiranov: it might all be about the right amount of distance - not too close, not too far
sophia Placebo: finding the cause of my escape, made me to look directly of how my life is interwined for some reasons tha i have a control over and others that i dont, to fix it may be would need the same time it needed to reach what is it now , except that now im fixing not escaping , and though fixing need more energy phisically and mentally and on all levels but it make the vision more sharp and the mirrior more clear
Wester Kiranov: like two dancers - they can't dance if they are completely intertwined, and they can't if they are a mile away from each other.
Strannik Zipper: wow! - nice analogy
sophia Placebo: :) nice analogy
Wester Kiranov: it's one of my favorites ;)
Strannik Zipper: too close, and you worry about getting your toes stepped on :)
Strannik Zipper: sophia, does "fixing" require control?
sophia Placebo: management is better start

I had to go for few minutes...

Wester Kiranov: (I have to go wake up my RL husband now. I'll be back in 5-10 minutes. I might still see you then, if not, this was a very nice conversation)
sophia Placebo: see you later wester :)
Strannik Zipper: (OK - see you at some point)
sophia Placebo: i have to be perfect mess things up , i dont need to be perfect mess things up too , so i keep , perfectness is good goal and every step towards it is an acheivment in itself
Strannik Zipper: what is perfectness?
sophia Placebo: thats subjective thing, i guess everyone has his own vison on this though we might agree upon some points
Strannik Zipper: what time zone are you in?
sophia Placebo: gmt +3hrs
Strannik Zipper: I'm on the US West Coast, so I am up very late
sophia Placebo: :) it is mid day here
Strannik Zipper: well I am up well past my bed time! - If I stay too muc later I will be waking up in mid day!
Strannik Zipper: nice discussing with you again
sophia Placebo: nice to meet you starn :) happy dreams

... and was back just in time to say bye to Strannik.

Strannik Zipper: OK - have a good day
sophia Placebo: bye
Strannik Zipper: later
sophia Placebo: *:::* WELCOME BACK *:::*
Wester Kiranov: just back in time to say bye
Wester Kiranov: oh, you're staying? just one more minute then

Sophia and me sat for a few more minutes and then we said bye as well.

Wester Kiranov: back again
sophia Placebo: :)
Wester Kiranov: ah-you've finally rezzed completely :)
sophia Placebo: =)
sophia Placebo: g2g, see you later wester , nice to meet you :)
Wester Kiranov: cu later then. bye