2009.05.10 07:00 - The Origin of Wol Euler

The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

Adams apologizes to Wol for the shabby trick to get people to look at this morning's log. Read on though reader for the answer:). This was a two hour session about love, imatience, listening, gender roles, and our common humanity. Along the way we discussed helping people deal with pain. In other words this was a Play as Being session. At the end of the two hours some of us felt a little better than when we came in.

Wol was there first and we were soon joined by Corvi and a friend, Cayenne, who came to Play as Being for the first time

Adams Rubble: Wow, Wol, you are early :)
Adams Rubble: Hello :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Corvi :)
Adams Rubble: Wol seems to be away
Adams Rubble pokes Wol
Wol Euler: what? what?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Cay is coming.
Wol Euler: morning corvi, adams
Adams Rubble: Good afternoon Wol
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Cay..you know Wol.
Wol Euler: hello cayenne, nice to see you again
Wol Euler: indeed
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and this is Adams...another good friend.
Cayenne Republic: hiya wol :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Cay, nice to meet you
Cayenne Republic: nice to meet you too, Adams
Adams Rubble: Good Morning Eliza :)
Wol Euler: hello eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Morning!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Eliza
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Wol or Adams..would you give Cay the lowdown? i just gave her the cards and said come on!

I start things off forgetting my guardian duties and make amends with Corvi's reminder

Adams Rubble: Eliza and I were having a chat the other night and I was telling her about my first koan
Adams Rubble: OH my, O forgot...sorry
Adams Rubble: Yes Cay, I will give you a notecard
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to meet you Cayenne :)
Adams Rubble: Cay, we meet here four times a day, 1, 7, 1 and 7
Adams Rubble: every 6 hour
Wol Euler: the elevator pitch would be that we are trying to achieve the ends of meditation with simple means, i.e. not needing to quit your job or move to a monastery
Wol Euler: the core practice is a nine-second mini-meditation, performed every 15 minutes
Wol Euler: making up in frequency what we lose in length of single sittings
Cayenne Republic: nice to meet you, Eliza :)
Wol Euler: with the idea also of making the meditation a constant and continual part of everyday life
Wol Euler: not something special for a single day or time
Adams Rubble: One other thing, we record our conversations and they are put on the PlayasBeing web site. Do you have objection to your name appearing there?
Cayenne Republic: No objection
Adams Rubble: thank you :)
Adams Rubble: Going back to my conversation....
Wol Euler: please :)

I pick up my introduction to my new interpretation of my impatience koan

Adams Rubble: I mentioned that early in my attendance at PaB, Pema gave me a koan
Adams Rubble: It was in response to my saying a few times that I was impatient to learn everything
Adams Rubble: I thought I could do it in a few weeks, a few months at most
Adams Rubble: the koan from Pema was "Who is impatient?"
Adams Rubble: at that time I came up with a a very Buddhist answer after thinking about it for a day or two

Steve ajoins us

Adams Rubble: Hi Steve. I am just talking about my first koan "Who is impatient?"
Wol Euler: hello steve
Eliza Madrigal: Hi steven :)
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Stevie
Adams Rubble: Anyway my answer then was "someone who has desires"
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
stevenaia Michinaga: ponders impatient
Adams Rubble: After talking to Eliza I began to think about the koan again bbecause Pema said I may have a better answer later
Eliza Madrigal: Hmm
Adams Rubble: Last night I came up with a Christian inspired answer
Adams Rubble: Someone who does not have enough love
Adams Rubble: Paul says "Love is patient"
Adams Rubble: tghus the inspired part
Adams Rubble: Every situation I have been able to think of so far, this works for it
Eliza Madrigal: That's beautiful Adams, Strong
Wol Euler nods thoughtfully.

Sophia mades a stunning appearance

Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia :)
Wol Euler: hello sophia
Eliza Madrigal: Hi sophia :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi sophia!
sophia Placebo: steve cay :)
Eliza Madrigal: sophia you are dramatic today :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
sophia Placebo: :))
Corvuscorva Nightfire: amazing hair!
Adams Rubble: lovely dress :)
Wol Euler: ooooh wow.
sophia Placebo: blush
sophia Placebo: ty:)
Adams Rubble: wb Corvi :)
sophia Placebo: *:::* WELCOME BACK *:::*
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ty
Cayenne Republic: hello everyone :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Thinks carefully about what you said...Adams have you discovered love is patience or considering it?
Adams Rubble: love is patient
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Cayenne Republic: I think the reverse is also true
Corvuscorva Nightfire: say the reverse?
Cayenne Republic: patience is love
Adams Rubble: I think that impatience can be reduced with compassion
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but then..the question be comes...who is compassionate?
Adams Rubble: One of the places I am very impatient is driving. hehe
Corvuscorva Nightfire: who is loving?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: who is patient?
Adams Rubble: Applying a little compassion for others works wonders
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmmmmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: sure does.
stevenaia Michinaga: My patient driving tends to drive passengers to the brink of insanity
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: hehe Steve
Wol Euler: ... which only shows _their_ need for compassion and patience :)
Eliza Madrigal: I am loving... not "i" am... because often "i" am not - heh
Adams Rubble: yes Wol
Cayenne Republic: so eeyore said to pooh
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Steve Leaves

stevenaia Michinaga: I am sorry, I must prepare breakfast for the arriving mothers
Wol Euler: indeed. There is much wisdom in Pooh.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: aww..bye, Stevie.
Eliza Madrigal: Nice steven!
stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon
sophia Placebo: bye steve :)
Wol Euler: very nice! enjoy the day, steve
Adams Rubble: ah, Take Care Steve :)

The origin strikes Corvi first...

Corvuscorva Nightfire: like Wol!!! the owl....
Wol Euler: heheheheheheh, have you only just worked that out?
Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
Wol Euler: Eule is "owl" in German
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh..i didn't know that part.
Adams Rubble did not know that either
Eliza Madrigal: There's an insight!
Adams Rubble: either one
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: one of the questions of the koan..is the personal who, too...who am i that is impatient?
Adams Rubble: yes, we can apply the "Who" in many ways
Adams Rubble: Who is angry?
Wol Euler: which of the "me"s is it?
Adams Rubble: Who is discouraged?
Adams Rubble: Who is sad?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: sort of a question of what is the meat of "i"
Adams Rubble: or "AM"
Adams Rubble: I AM
Eliza Madrigal nods
Adams Rubble: I am impatient
Adams Rubble: I am sad
Adams Rubble: I AM
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Eliza..what is it you said just a little bit ago?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I was intrigued.
Eliza Madrigal: I am loving?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmhmm
Eliza Madrigal: When we allow Being, Being is loving when we are not... was along the lines of where that took me
Eliza Madrigal: if I can quiet "i"... can be loving in a way I cant
Eliza Madrigal: It is impossible, it seems to me :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks of 'self' for just a minute...as a little boil that gets irritated..grows...gets in the way...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and sometimes needs soothing and healing to get out of the way.

Fefonz fills out our group

Wol Euler: morning fefonz
Adams Rubble: Hello Fef :)
Adams Rubble: Yes Corvi, and when we look, this pain is part of our humanity
Fefonz Quan: Hello All :)
Adams Rubble: It is something we share
Eliza Madrigal nods.. soothing, yes..comforting. "It is okay"
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fefonz
Adams Rubble: The Love helps us see that
sophia Placebo: hi fef

Corvi brings up meditation and we take that up

Corvuscorva Nightfire: meditation..is part of that soothing..i think.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mebbee.
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: at least..that is one way that I use the little bit I know how to do.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi fef
Adams Rubble: meditation helps us stop and see what we are doing
Adams Rubble: watch ourselves
Fefonz Quan: thich nath hanh in one chapter of meditation describe it as 'stopping, calming, resting, healing'
Wol Euler nods
Eliza Madrigal is thinking about pain and humanity... how we often react to it as though it is 'wrong' when pain is a communication...
Eliza Madrigal: a signal to stop and listen
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ohhhhh!!!!!!
Fefonz Quan: and accept.
Adams Rubble: good point Eliza
Fefonz Quan: running away from pain is light clinging to pleasure, both don't work
Corvuscorva Nightfire: both irritate that boil.
Fefonz Quan: like*
Eliza Madrigal: certainly
Fefonz Quan: yes, the two sides of attachment
Fefonz Quan: and meditation helps to practice staying in the presense of it
Fefonz Quan: presence*
Adams Rubble: helps us see the pain for what it is
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Eliza Madrigal: in its way, the pain is a light... a door
Eliza Madrigal: not easy to see it that way at first sight... very dim
Wol Euler nods. The immediate reaction is always "do not want!", take it away
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Fefonz Quan: and somehow that automatic strategy doesn't work, no matter how many times we keep trying it
Corvuscorva Nightfire: no..it doesn't..really doesn't.
Eliza Madrigal: Or it feels like it works sometimes, but then comes back around the corner :)
Cayenne Republic: it's treating symptoms and not the disease. responding to the voice and not the heart.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh yes!!!
Eliza Madrigal: yes... not facing the heart of the matter
Fefonz Quan: yet it is so hard to switch to another strategy, takes so much effort
Fefonz Quan: and courage
Cayenne Republic: it requires desire - most people do not have, that which you described earlier - the patience
Fefonz Quan nods, patience
Corvuscorva Nightfire: practice.

Cay wonders about the way we react to people who are in pain

Cayenne Republic: people, in general, like to offer well wishes and move along - not get involved, avoid deep connection
Corvuscorva Nightfire: guidance.
Wol Euler: (rain, gotta close some windows)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh, Cay..you are so right.
Fefonz Quan: not the SL window we hope Wol :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: we do that even to ourselves.
Adams Rubble nods
Corvuscorva Nightfire: offer well wishes and avoid connection.
Fefonz Quan: yes, a favorable bypass
Eliza Madrigal loves rain... seems a metaphor for the breakthrough that happens before growth... culmination
Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes we offer well-wishes because we think that's what others can handle?
Cayenne Republic: I think it's more what "we" can handle
Eliza Madrigal: yes? hm
Cayenne Republic: rarely are "well wishes" more than general platitudes
Cayenne Republic: conditioned responses
Wol Euler: back, reading
Cayenne Republic: they require no effort, no offering of self
Eliza Madrigal thinks of a million moments in which she began to ansewr "what's up?" with a genuine answer....
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Cayenne Republic: conversational decoration
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and stopped, Eliza becuase?
Eliza Madrigal: the person glazed over... or.. well.. lots of different scenarios I think...
Eliza Madrigal: that's how one gets conditioned to answer "Not too much!" :)
Cayenne Republic: Because "what's up" is the same thing - it is not actually meant to ilicit a genuine response - it's there to stop silence, which most people fear
sophia Placebo: in funerals , words are expected and tp the minimum cuz there is nothing that you can offer usually , its your presence there that count
Adams Rubble: much of our conversation is on a superficial level
Eliza Madrigal nods to sohpia
Adams Rubble: yes Sophia
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mcuh of our conversations is not words..too..
Corvuscorva Nightfire: like what Sophia says..
Wol Euler: also true
Corvuscorva Nightfire: showing up.
Adams Rubble: yes
Adams Rubble: being there
Wol Euler: a look in the eye and a squeeze of the hand
Cayenne Republic: yes - as you would be at a death bed
Fefonz Quan: right. also the way you say even banal things matter
sophia Placebo: some words though in some circumstances do have effects more than anything else , true some situations require more than just words or less
Adams Rubble: Depth of experience, depth of compassion, depth of understanding of onese lf all come into play in our responses to others
Fefonz Quan: and also the fact that sometimes we can't do much to help. This can be frustrating for itself
Adams Rubble: yes, that too
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I've been helped the ost sometimes when there is nothing anyone can "do" to help.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but know my story and love me.
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Wol Euler nods
Fefonz Quan: yes, i agree
sophia Placebo: or not sure if my act would result in good or in bad outcomes too
Adams Rubble: :)
Eliza Madrigal: There is also that sense of presence... when maybe you don't know where it is coming from but you just feel comforted...
Cayenne Republic: more times than not - helping is not what we think it might be, it is sharing time, empathizing, understanding
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes.
Eliza Madrigal: I believe in being 'there' for someone, even when you can't be there...
Wol Euler: yes, cay
Adams Rubble: Many times, just explaining our problem is enough...
Adams Rubble: by seeing how we express it, we often see the way to a solution
Eliza Madrigal: "it was with you all the time"
Wol Euler: hidden in plain sight, as it were; but our eyes are used to it and don't see
Cayenne Republic: knowing that someome is willing to give you their time, to listen actively, to offer a hand - offer heart; no one can solve problems for someone else, but they can stand beside them while they search
Cayenne Republic: time, being the most valuable commodity anyone has
Eliza Madrigal: Listen actively... like that phrasing very much Cayenne
Cayenne Republic: the state of being genunine in your concern
Eliza Madrigal: Which brings us back to practice in a way... takes intention?
Cayenne Republic: it takes love
Adams Rubble: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)

We begin to transition into a discussion about how society and expectations affect our ability to help and relate to others

Fefonz Quan: yes, though sometimes people have a lot of love, still don't know how to express it/help
sophia Placebo: it is really easy , simple nice words , or acts , gestures
Wol Euler: people sometimes don't trust themselves to respond to others' emotional state. In England it was bordering on bad manners to remark on somebody being unhappy
sophia Placebo: it is the problem of changing our habits i guess
Cayenne Republic: it is the definition ... love is an ideal - it is different things to different people - everyone knows how to express love, in their own ways. Sometimes those ways change course; when you have a "change of heart" or "enlightenment" in some way
sophia Placebo: really eliza?
sophia Placebo: sorry wol*
Wol Euler: :) and yes, English society was founded on repression of emotion. "Stiff upper lip", "don't make a fuss"
Wol Euler: "just a flesh wound"
Fefonz Quan: hehe
Corvuscorva Nightfire looks up and snorts.
Fefonz Quan thinks Monty Phython
Wol Euler: which in a way is heading off sympathy and support. Preventing you from offering it to me
Corvuscorva Nightfire: me too
Cayenne Republic: repression of "some" emotions. People tend not to equate anger and envy with being emotional
Eliza Madrigal: :yes, talk about conditioning
Wol Euler: why? perhaps to avoid being indebted to you?
Wol Euler: (true, cay, it was perfectly OK to be violently angry)
Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking about that.. .how some seem more 'skilled' at showing outright support/help/affection... and oddly what came up was a biblical phrasing that each member plays a part in the whole.. even the parts which seem less 'useful' are vital....maybe not as 'seen'
Fefonz Quan: In some cultures it shows vulnerability, which translates to weekness. not popular, espicially among Men
Eliza Madrigal nods
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire likes the capitilization there.
Cayenne Republic: yesssss Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: 'you are supposed to be brave and not cry'
Cayenne Republic: emotions, the kind and compassionate - is seen as weak, while the anger is seen as strong
Adams Rubble: Not LEARNED so well by men :)
Fefonz Quan nods to cayenne
Eliza Madrigal: It is like cutting off one's air supply willingly to show how strong you are
Adams Rubble: :)
Cayenne Republic: to cut off one's nose to spite their face
Wol Euler: exactly.
Fefonz Quan: yes, yet it is a common practice :)
Adams Rubble: society makes lots of silly rules about gender
Eliza Madrigal: we're a funny lot
Cayenne Republic: and it is a vicous circle
Fefonz Quan: others cut there noses for society 's sake those days too
Wol Euler nods to Adams. Indeed.
Cayenne Republic: those who seek to distance themselves from emotion - are the very ones that crave it, and the further they go in their avoidence - the greater the need becomes
Eliza Madrigal: it does seem to show up
Fefonz Quan: (Women mostly)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: there are other ways to distance..
Cayenne Republic: I do not think it is women mostly
Eliza Madrigal: it depends on what one labels 'emotion'
Fefonz Quan: (was talking of nose cutting in a very physical way)
Corvuscorva Nightfire flashes a grin at fefonz
Cayenne Republic: I think it is done more by men than women
Fefonz Quan: (you might call it 'shaping', but it is the same)

Sophia returns to RL

sophia Placebo: g2g , bye all :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: rhinoplasty?
Wol Euler: bye sophia, take care
Adams Rubble: bye Sophia :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Sophia
Cayenne Republic: bye sophia :)
Fefonz Quan: Bye Sophia
Eliza Madrigal lives in Miami where "everyone" cuts off their nose to get a new one... and 'ab implants' are big too. heheh
Eliza Madrigal: Bye sophia
Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts.
Adams Rubble: :)
Fefonz Quan: :)
Cayenne Republic: You know, they could fix that too Corvi ...
Corvuscorva Nightfire baps Cay with a pillow.
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Fefonz Quan: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: nearly falls off her mat laughing.
Cayenne Republic: There is a reason most Narcissists are men
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
Fefonz Quan: Cayenne, we are wating in suspense :)
Cayenne Republic: they learn early how to get emotion without giving, without communicating - without offering of themselves
Cayenne Republic: and in that ... it begins the cycle of craving
Fefonz Quan: how so, and why more than women?
Corvuscorva Nightfire is deep in the cycle of craving..
Cayenne Republic: that they cannot break free of, they lack the communication skills of women, in general
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and not sure communication helps all that much.
Eliza Madrigal: { } Indeed Corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: i think i think that the condition is human.
Cayenne Republic: women are far more communicative - and it helps a great deal when you can speak to others from the heart - and offer yours without fear
Cayenne Republic: it is a gender trait
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oook...but Cay..i got tons of fear.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it looks a little different than if i'd been conditioned a boy..but the fear!!!!
Eliza Madrigal: *some* women are communicative... and some communicate very well.. seeming to show everything but concealing
Cayenne Republic: sure, but your fear is not in your ability to communicate - you will say to me - you have fear
Corvuscorva Nightfire: sure.
Cayenne Republic: a man would not say that
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but i got it.
Wol Euler: right
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and saying it doesn't help much.
Cayenne Republic: no, but acknowledging it does
Wol Euler: saying it helps a lot! right, cay
Cayenne Republic: the existence of it
Fefonz Quan: Women have more approval when they show emotions and weaknesses
Adams Rubble does not agree with any of this
Cayenne Republic: Do you think so? women are constantly ostrasized for being emotional
Eliza Madrigal feels that she has often had the opposite experience
Wol Euler: say more?
Adams Rubble: these kind of gender differences are very shallow...much of what we are told from birth
Cayenne Republic: No, communication is not shallow
Adams Rubble: we need to look at what we are as people
Fefonz Quan: sure, them they are blamed for it as anothe way to make them 'inferior' in the male frame of view, but that is the whole point
Cayenne Republic: it is biological
Adams Rubble: what is our humanity
Adams Rubble: there are biological things yes
Eliza Madrigal tends to agree. All of us have conditioning to see through
Cayenne Republic: the way the gender-brain functions
Fefonz Quan: i also agree with adams that it is a gneeralization, individuals have a wide range of those things
Adams Rubble: we are told our brains behave doifferent;y
Adams Rubble: so we believe it
Eliza Madrigal: yes, that we are supposed to think in this way or that....
Cayenne Republic: but as for shallow - it makes no difference on an individual level whether a person is born into a state or is conditioned into a state of being - some things are innate, some things are learned; but as for each person - it is not the societal whole that matters
Eliza Madrigal: I have mentioned before, the Scientific American article which showed that men taking a math test as women on SL, did worse than if they took the math as men. Hmmm... an idea in their minds, not the way things actually are
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Adams Rubble: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh yea..i remember that!
Adams Rubble: I love it
Cayenne Republic: math - is not communication or love or patience
Adams Rubble: I did not know about it
Eliza Madrigal: Is a code of sorts :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: no..but...that thing about ideas..about boundaries we set on ourselves.
Cayenne Republic: skeet shooting - is not communication or love or patience - math is a skill, it is a language
Fefonz Quan: h=there is another known experiment, showing women get lower math grades when they are tested with men, then where tested alone
Corvuscorva Nightfire: we limit ourselves alot by focusing on "men" and "women" or any other aspect of identity
Adams Rubble: yes Corvi!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: by becoming attached to it.
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: by thinking...this is what is true.
Fefonz Quan nods
Adams Rubble nods
Cayenne Republic: I don't focus on "men" or "women" I focus on individuals
Wol Euler: the generic "we", then :)
Cayenne Republic: and each one has a different set of circumstances that create them - male, female or indifferent
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Eliza Madrigal: I can see certain patterns in my life as having background conditioning due to my being female, but I can also see many other cases where my experience doesn't line up with that... think that is usually the case
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..culture and biology may create some group tendencies but the overlap between men in women is far greater than the distance from end to end in each group on any given traight
Fefonz Quan: but getting back to emotionality, no matter man or women, we get limited because of things we learned from society
Corvuscorva Nightfire: except the actual presence of genetalia, maybe.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: even that too, actually... intersex is far more common than one thinks
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Fefonz Quan: and many of the common 'rules' society has today are harmul amotionaly
Fefonz Quan: emotionaly
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. to Fefonz
Adams Rubble: Yes, we deny there are three genders
Adams Rubble: I meant to say society denies
Fefonz Quan: many of the messages we get from 'society' are driven by greed, political powers, and other interests very far from our own good
Adams Rubble: yes Fef!
Wol Euler nods wide-eyed
Cayenne Republic: there's a difference between society and the individual; it's like macroeconomics and microeconomics. Studies, gender differences, conditioning - none of it has pertinence when describing the ability for two people to express or communicate to each other - except in the knowing of others as individuals - this is the knowing that is often discounted as unimportant - by individuals. People would rather stereotype and pigeonhole than actually listen to someone
Cayenne Republic: most people do not learn how to communicate from society - they learn from immediate family - mother, father, grandparents - siblings
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh, well said!
Eliza Madrigal: yes, until they begin to step back and see through it and live less reactively :)
Cayenne Republic: but that is still not a society quest - it is individual
Adams Rubble: Many of the things I learned from my parents were to conform to society or else suffer the consequences
Fefonz Quan: and internet and TV Cayenne, even in little ages
Cayenne Republic: these are still generalizations - and based on your own individual experience
Adams Rubble: Ye Cay. POur expereinces begin to show us that reality is different
Cayenne Republic: everyone is an individual - seeking to "clump" or "cluster" or "define" people in any way ... is doing still what you think is being done .... wring?
Cayenne Republic: wrong?
Eliza Madrigal: Adams, certainly. I find that the "manners" i was taught are often obstacles to vulnerability and acceptance of affection.
Fefonz Quan: and by the way - our parents are well influenced by society around them too, they are not isolated from it
Eliza Madrigal: yes Fef
Cayenne Republic: no one is isolated from society - like bees in a hive
Cayenne Republic: we're pack animals
Wol Euler nods
Wol Euler: and *herd* animals too, we have that dichotomy.
Fefonz Quan: that was my point. hence it is so hard to find an individual path, moreover when this path contrasts the common values you see around
Cayenne Republic: but that influence is not the extent of everything ... it does not define an individual
Cayenne Republic: the definition of individual comes from within
Adams Rubble: we can explore outside the boundaries set for us
Eliza Madrigal: Their teaching us, even when harshly, is often trying to protect from what they fear... in its way it was their way of love. They were "doing the best the could with what they had where they were"
Eliza Madrigal: Adams, yes!!!!
Fefonz Quan: and i believe that looking deeply, we start to see where our definitions come from, and see that many of them are 'what people told us we are', not just what we came with personally
Wol Euler: yes Adams, and yes Eliza
Cayenne Republic: and much of what they teach you is well served
Cayenne Republic: don't stick your hand in the fire - it burns
Fefonz Quan: and from there we can start dropping what we find untrue, or not useful
Eliza Madrigal: yes, even if by doing things very screwily. hahah
Cayenne Republic: don't look at the sun
Cayenne Republic: don't stand out in the snow without your shoes on
Cayenne Republic: respect your elders, they're wiser than you think
Adams Rubble: parents do the best thhey can :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire pictures little Cay in the snow.
Cayenne Republic: hehehe
Adams Rubble: :)
Cayenne Republic: i did stand in the snow in bare feet :D
Corvuscorva Nightfire: i was very clear on that.
Fefonz Quan: Sure, we got a lot of good things too cayenne, i didn't say differently
Eliza Madrigal: Fefonz, yes. It takes a while, and intention, to begin to see that we have choices to step out of those wheels and loops
Eliza Madrigal: Some of them 'appear' more ingrained than others... good that we help one another :)
Cayenne Republic: it's the very act of generalizing that removes the listening actively concept .....
Adams Rubble: yes Cay
Cayenne Republic: it is a constraing you place on your own thoughts when dealing or seeking to help or ... enlighten others, to understand?
Cayenne Republic: -g+t
Fefonz Quan: what is a contrain?
Wol Euler: constraint, a limitat or restriction
Wol Euler: *limit
Fefonz Quan: i know the literal meaning, that's not wht i asked
Wol Euler: sorry ...
Cayenne Republic: Above, start dropping what we find useful or untrue in our conditioning by society .. ? assuming all people have a conditioning that requires rectiifcation in order to progress or learn or understand
Cayenne Republic: it is not a requirement to discard what is learned in order to learn something else - it is a foundation that can be used to understand one's self and others
Eliza Madrigal: generalizing is a constraint... a file you put someone/self in
Cayenne Republic: yes
Eliza Madrigal: Cayenne, sure, not everything needs to be dropped
Eliza Madrigal: Seen through, perhaps so
Fefonz Quan: without seeing our conditioning, it is hard to start see through it
Eliza Madrigal: we can learn to have affection for thigns once they don't have a 'hold' on us
Cayenne Republic: understood, perhaps is a better word - but this is where ... knowledge of one's self is key
Fefonz Quan nods
Eliza Madrigal nods... though knowing oneself sometimes seems too much work... if a mental/intellectual paradigm
Eliza Madrigal: Maybe open heart knowledge is different...
Cayenne Republic nods
Corvuscorva Nightfire: like discovery?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: Unfolding
Corvuscorva Nightfire: of things as they show up.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..
Corvuscorva Nightfire: better!!!
Eliza Madrigal: !!
Cayenne Republic: not being blind to it, too
Corvuscorva Nightfire: attention to the unfolding?
Eliza Madrigal: Illumination
Cayenne Republic: turning away from the .... light
Corvuscorva Nightfire sighs...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: smiles at the lovely words.
Eliza Madrigal: So, who is impatient? :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire snickers.
Wol Euler grins
Corvuscorva Nightfire: good question.
Cayenne Republic: human beings
Fefonz Quan: that is a generalization :)
Fefonz Quan: true, nevertheless
Corvuscorva Nightfire: woosh
Corvuscorva Nightfire: i am feeling through.
Wol Euler: anothe rnap?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: like this conversation has been a journey...and...i have reached a sleeping place.
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs..mebbee.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Cayenne Republic: time for the two hour time out?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: heheh
Fefonz Quan: sleeping place sounds great for me
Eliza Madrigal: Am feeling like I can allow Love to do its work today perhaps...
Wol Euler smiles
Eliza Madrigal: arrived feeling very tangled
Eliza Madrigal: and have unwravled a bit... Thank you.
Fefonz Quan: and now untangled? :)
Eliza Madrigal: a bit :)
Fefonz Quan: good :)
Adams Rubble: best thing that can happen at PaB :)
Wol Euler: glad to hear it, Eliza
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmhmm
Corvuscorva Nightfire stands and stretches.
Adams Rubble: bye Corvi :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Corvi :)
Wol Euler: 'night corvi, take care
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm headed home..if anyone wants to come by...IM me...I'm not napping quite yet.
Fefonz Quan: night corvi
Eliza Madrigal: A funny note... My son said today that I have "basil eyes" heahhah
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: Hope not Basil Fawty
Eliza Madrigal: he said this weeks ago... corrected him... think he didn't hear me
Eliza Madrigal: Am glad he didn't hear me/
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: bye Wol :)
Adams Rubble: bye Fef :)
Wol Euler: I shall head out too. Bye for now, dear friends, see you at Max's dream session?
Fefonz Quan: Bye All, thatn'k for the talk
Adams Rubble: Thank you all :)
Eliza Madrigal: Wol, bye for now. I'm going to try...love that session too :)
Cayenne Republic: nice to meet you all :)
Adams Rubble: bye Cay. Thanls for coming :)
Wol Euler: bye cay, take care
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Adams, for bringing up your insight
Fefonz Quan: you too cayenne
Cayenne Republic: bye!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Cayenne :)
Fefonz Quan: bye :)
Fefonz Quan: bye all :)
Adams Rubble: Very welcome Eliza, you inspired it :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Fef, See you :)
Eliza Madrigal: We spark one another!
Adams Rubble: :)