2009.05.10 13:00 - Dreams, mind and brain

The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

While the discussion began considering mothering functions, on this Mother's Day in the USA,  the planned topics of dreams and dreaming also soon came into view.  We also had a lesson about neurophysiological functioning from one of our members, so several threads entwined as often occurs in these sessions as well as the mutual nourishment which so often occurs during these sessions.

Maxine Walden: hi, Pila
Pila Mulligan: hi Maxine
Maxine Walden: how are you?
Pila Mulligan: I'm fine thanks, and you?
Maxine Walden: fine...wending through a busy weekend...
Pila Mulligan: happy mother's day
Maxine Walden: oh, yes, thanks!
Maxine Walden: And to you too, if that seems appropriate, to the motherly part of the self...
Pila Mulligan: yes, i have a motherly part as well :)
Maxine Walden: indeed
Pila Mulligan: although as far as I know I've never actually been a mother :)
Maxine Walden: haha, guess you would know if you had
Pila Mulligan: :)
Maxine Walden: but perhaps we all are motherly to others in ways we may not even be aware of
Maxine Walden: openness, compassion, patience...
Pila Mulligan: yes -- the association of Chinese yin and yang with feminine and masculine is so entrenched that it seems to be just assumed to be valid ... perhaps unfortunately ...
Pila Mulligan: but we all have a yin aspect
Pila Mulligan: and I respect and nurture mine
Maxine Walden: so important to nurture and receive nurture from that aspect, it seems to me
Pila Mulligan: yes, in the Chinese scheme of things it is the most essential object of meditation
Pila Mulligan: as well
Maxine Walden: is it? interesting
Maxine Walden: (not aware in depth of many of the Eastern traditions)
Pila Mulligan: was it here that someone recently referred to the work of a 100 year old neurologist whose view was that the world suffered from the mind's dark right side
Pila Mulligan: hi Adams
Pila Mulligan: hi Wol
Pila Mulligan: hi Scath
Maxine Walden: may have beeen...hi Adams and Wol
Adams Rubble: Hello, Pila, Scath and Maxine and hello again Wol :)
Wol Euler: hello pila, maxine, adams, scath and mick
Maxine Walden: we have been meditating about motherly aspects on this Mother's Day
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Maxine, Pila, Adams, Wol
Wol Euler: ah!
Pila Mulligan: :)
Maxine Walden: hi Scath
Adams Rubble: Hello Mick
Pila Mulligan: hi mick
Maxine Walden: hi Mick
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Scath max Wol, Adams Pila
Maxine Walden: last Sunday we thought of continuing our free discussion re dreams and dreaming...and on this Mother's Day maybe other thoughts would wend in as well
Pila Mulligan: sounds like a plan
Mickorod Renard: is it mothers day?
Maxine Walden: in the USA, Mick
Mickorod Renard: phew,,thts ok then
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: :)
Maxine Walden: :)
Maxine Walden: Wol, can't help but ask was is in your balloon: deipnosophist?
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: a marvellous word that I leaned yesterday, so I had a friend create a group title
Wol Euler: "dinner table philosopher"
Adams Rubble: :)
Maxine Walden: ah...
Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
Wol Euler: It's Greek, but I very strongly suspect that it's a neologism
Maxine Walden: but it sounds so great!
Wol Euler: yeah :)
Maxine Walden: so sophisticated...
Maxine Walden: beyond what most of us would know...lends that air of
Wol Euler: well, I'll get him to invite you to the group, you can wear it too :)
Maxine Walden: 'beyond what most of us know...'
Adams Rubble: What is the meaning of mashed potatoes. Please pass the gravy
Maxine Walden: haha, Adams!!
Wol Euler: exactly!
Wol Euler: and how many angels can dance on the head of a carrot?
Adams Rubble: :)
Maxine Walden: :)
Pila Mulligan: hi sophia
Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia :)
Wol Euler: hello again sophia
Maxine Walden: hi, sophia
Mickorod Renard: Hi Sophie
sophia Placebo: greetings all :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello sophia
Maxine Walden: dreams or dreaming...anything anyone wishes to bring up?
Maxine Walden: Other things of course as well, this is a guardian meeting...
Wol Euler: heh, those seem to have fallen into disuse.
Adams Rubble smiles
Mickorod Renard: I dreampt of the lottery numbers the other day,,but I have to admit the numbers were diferent to yesterdays draw
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Maxine Walden: too bad, Mick
Wol Euler: next week, perhaps?
Adams Rubble: :)
Wol Euler: or next month ...
Pila Mulligan: maybe they were US lottery numbers, care to share them? :)
Mickorod Renard: or next year
Adams Rubble: or last year
Mickorod Renard: I only had 5 numbers,,the full number needs to be 6
sophia Placebo: are you sure they werent numbers familiar to you mick?
Mickorod Renard: well,,I dont think they were
Mickorod Renard: but who knows
sophia Placebo: passwords, streets,telephons, accounts ? school id number :)
Mickorod Renard: but I guess I could do with some extra cash at the moment,,and that was the reason for the dream
Wol Euler: ah! wish fulfillment
Mickorod Renard: yea
Maxine Walden: asking the dream for a wish...yes,as wol suggests
Maxine Walden: dreams to offer a wisdom...
Mickorod Renard: well the lottery number one didnt feel like a special dream
Maxine Walden: but sometimes it seems do not give the answers we might be hoping for
sophia Placebo: cuz usually when poeple i met report a dream with a future number or a date , they said that they didnt remmber it
Mickorod Renard: maybe we can try and distinguish between the diferent types of dreams?
Maxine Walden: sure...what kinds of dreams are you aware of, Mick
Mickorod Renard: well,,i can remember becoming quite aware that ..hey! remember them numbers,,
Mickorod Renard: ohh
Mickorod Renard: well,,somedreams just feel so important
Mickorod Renard: and u peraps wke and then cant let the dream slip away
Mickorod Renard: sorry,,keyboard probs at the mom
Maxine Walden: np, Mick, think we can understand
Mickorod Renard: they feel soooo profound
Maxine Walden: yes, those profound dreams arevery noteworthy...seem to come from a sector maybe deeper than some other dreams,
Mickorod Renard: other dreams of course feel horrid,,like when u have a temprature
Wol Euler: oh yes, the turning and thrashing dreams ...
Mickorod Renard: yes
Maxine Walden: which may express the chaos of the body when ill, or distrubances of the mind as well
Mickorod Renard: and some are lovely,,and u want to keep stringing them along
Maxine Walden: dreams for each mood or state of mind, perhaps
Mickorod Renard: maybe
Mickorod Renard: nobody ever mentions the sex ones
Wol Euler: :)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Maxine Walden: my current thought is that the dreaming self is sort of like a parallel river, not always in synch with the conscious self, but often a companion
Wol Euler nods
Mickorod Renard: thats interesting
Maxine Walden: often a messenger, often offering a deeper perspective
Adams Rubble: that has been my experience
Mickorod Renard: I read in the science journal the other day,,,that dolphins have two seperate functioning parts of brain..
Mickorod Renard: more functioning than ours I think
Maxine Walden: and sometimes when there are longings, frustrations,wishes,such as sexual ones,the dream may be very expressive, as if trying to satisfy our wishes
Mickorod Renard: I wonder if our dream state is a remnant of earlier spieces
Maxine Walden: did not know that about dolphins...
Mickorod Renard: yes,,they have just completed some tests
Mickorod Renard: to see if they suffer from sleep deprivation
Wol Euler frowns
Maxine Walden: frowning, Wol?
Adams Rubble: poor dolphins
Mickorod Renard: but in fact they can function perfectly ,,mentaly,,for up to two days without sleep
Wol Euler: strange thing to want to "experiment" on, or maybe not.
sophia Placebo: organically : some dreams are elecited by external stimulie, like if the clock rings and you dream that the clock is ringing but you cant stop it :)
sophia Placebo: sorry for jumping
Wol Euler: or the phone rings and you dream that you are answering it, so you won't have to wake up
Maxine Walden: yes, sophia, perhaps an example of trying to let the sleeper remain asleep
Mickorod Renard: the conclusion is that they can rest each side of the brain,,independently..and thus still be able to ward off preditors
Wol Euler: wow
Maxine Walden: interesting
sophia Placebo: true , never happen to whome had enough sleep
Adams Rubble wonders if there was a Monty Python sketch "man with two brains"
sophia Placebo: intresting mick
Mickorod Renard: yes,,i dreamt I had got up and showered,,only to find out i was still in bed
Wol Euler: :)
sophia Placebo: :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Pila Mulligan: someone at a PaB session recently referred to Rita Levi-Montalcini, a 100 year old neurologist ... one of her views is that the world's ills arise from the mind's archaic right side, to the detriment of the more modern and rational left side
Pila Mulligan: http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/l...cle6163496.ece
Pila Mulligan: “The brain has two hemispheres” she says, “one ancient or archaic, which governs our emotions and instincts, the other younger, which governs our capacity to reason. Today the archaic brain tends to dominate. It is the cause of all the tragedies ..."
sophia Placebo: thats internal stimulie ,weather phisical or set in your biological clock
Mickorod Renard: whats the bit in the middle called?
Maxine Walden: thanks, Pila, very interesting
Mickorod Renard: isnt that supposed to keep balance
Pila Mulligan: the nose is the middle part, mick
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Maxine Walden: haha
sophia Placebo: hypothalamus, thalamus , hippocampus and internal cortex
Mickorod Renard: noo,it will come to me in a mom,,sounds religious
Mickorod Renard: temporal cortex?
Maxine Walden: sophia sounds like an expert in neuroanatomy
sophia Placebo: not realy maxine , just a short courrse
Maxine Walden: but you may help us understand the archaic aspects
Pila Mulligan: Levi-Montalcini view is remarkably close to a traditional Chinese view of meditation: corruption of yin (right side) energy leads to yang compulsion (yang being the rational and left side) and so an object of meditation is to remove the corruption and its associated compulsion
Mickorod Renard: some monks used to use drugs to disable the control,,and hope that it brings about a spiritual revelation
Maxine Walden: could you say more about the corruptin of the yin, Pila?
Pila Mulligan: yes, but it may be a bit much for now :) essentially, incomplete breathing leads to internal eneregy problems
Pila Mulligan: oops
Adams Rubble also wonders that the professoressa thinks the archaic side dominates in the modern world
sophia Placebo: well simply : you have the cerebrum which is the 2 hemispheres and cerebellum which a small brain downward back word of the cerebrum ,
sophia Placebo: the cerebellum controlls the movments in sense of making the skills better
sophia Placebo: for example , when you first learn to do some hand craft you feel like funny moving your body but with time things becomes magically fine
Mickorod Renard: like the rain man,,isnt one side good with numbers,,and the other side good at something else?
sophia Placebo: it is said taht once you learn a skill you never forget it unless cerebellum was injured
Adams Rubble: like riding a bike
sophia Placebo: the cereberum basically , you have the 2 hemispheres and the middle parts that connect btw the 2
sophia Placebo: right adam
Maxine Walden: yes it becomes part of an unconcsious memory process having to do with skills learned
sophia Placebo: nothing to do with the memory that we usually refer to maxine , usually you do it without the need to know how at each step
Mickorod Renard: but by detaching from one side or the other,,it brings about od phenomena?
sophia Placebo: they talk about the 2 hemispheres in cerebrum usualy here mick
Mickorod Renard: ok
sophia Placebo: the 2 hemisphers have the cortext which holds the body parts movemnt and sensations , the more use of a body part the larger the area it is represnted on the cortex
Mickorod Renard: again,i guess we can see another example of filters
Maxine Walden: it is possible,Mick, that the dolphin does not have the connections between the two hemispheres which humans do, the connection being called the corpus collosum, a band of connection which cooordinates the two cerebral spheres. Is that your understanding, sophia?
sophia Placebo: but there is a special area for speech on the left hemisphere that is not on the right hemisphere
Mickorod Renard: mmmmm,ll very deep
sophia Placebo: now the middle area that connect the 2 hemisphers
sophia Placebo: they said it is bigger in women and when women speak they use both hen=mispheres
sophia Placebo: im not sure of that though
Mickorod Renard: It doesnt supprise me
Mickorod Renard: ;)
Adams Rubble: Hello Arabella :)
Pila Mulligan: hi arabella
sophia Placebo: but this is the area that is usually cut in epilyptic patients , dont know the theory exactly about it
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Ara
Maxine Walden: nice to have you drop in, Ara
arabella Ella: hiya
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara
Wol Euler: hello ara
Maxine Walden: (think this chatlog will be titled: dreams, mind, brain...something like that)
sophia Placebo: this area is called hippocampus thalamus , hypothalamus and internal cortex
sophia Placebo: hi ara
arabella Ella: apologies for being so late Maxine
Mickorod Renard: I doubt I will remember all this
Adams Rubble: :)
Maxine Walden: sophic, you are giving us a veritable neurophysiology lesson today!!
Wol Euler: ah, that's why we publish the logs!
Maxine Walden: np, Ara, so many things going on for us all
Pila Mulligan: is there a brain part especially related to dreaming
Pila Mulligan: ?
sophia Placebo: here where memory , emotions , bilogical clock anger , thrist hunge sleep sex desires resides
sophia Placebo: basically all primitive needs are there
Adams Rubble: Is that the alligator brain part?
sophia Placebo: im not aware of that pila , have been a while on that course , sorry for being too brief
Wol Euler grins and nods
sophia Placebo: that basically our brain
sophia Placebo: as i know it :)
Maxine Walden: there is a pattern of brain functioning often linked with dreaming: rapid eye movement or REM
Maxine Walden: Sophia, you have shown us your wisdom ('sophia' means wisdom I think) about the brain
sophia Placebo: true , has a special wave pattern
Maxine Walden: and maybe we can refer back to the chatlog for brushup now and then
Maxine Walden: I have to go to another meeting. Will post the chatlog later. Bye all, sorry have to go mid-silence
Pila Mulligan: bye maxine
Wol Euler: bye maxine, goodnight
sophia Placebo: i just give what i know max , thats what we do here :)
Adams Rubble waves silently
sophia Placebo: bye max
Mickorod Renard: bye MAX
arabella Ella: bye Maxine
Pila Mulligan: from an old Chinese text: "The animus lives in the daytime in the eyes; at night it houses in the liver. When living in the eyes, it sees; when housing itself in the liver, it dreams. Dreams are the wanderings of the spirit through all nine Heavens and all the nine earths."
Adams Rubble: :)
Mickorod Renard: wow,pila,,thats deep
Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, good night all, Namasté
Mickorod Renard: bye Scath
sophia Placebo: bye scath
Adams Rubble: night Scath :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Scath
Wol Euler: goodnight, scath, slep well
arabella Ella: bye scath
Mickorod Renard: where are the other 7 heavens Pila?
sophia Placebo: intersting pila
Pila Mulligan: where are the first two Mick :) ?
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Mickorod Renard: i read it wrong,sorry
Pila Mulligan: it will be interesting to see what modern science finds as to the place where dreaming happens
Adams Rubble thinks it is in bed
Pila Mulligan: :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Wol Euler: probably all over ... even muscle-control parts of the brain.
Mickorod Renard: it will,,but I hope it doesnt spoil the romance of it
sophia Placebo: it is similar to a belife here , that soul or spirit wanders in onther world during sleep
Pila Mulligan: and Maxine's idea that such wandering continues to happen even with the eyes open and awake
Wol Euler: I wonder ... is that the source of the belief that you shouldh't wake a sleepwalker, in case their soul doesn't get back?
Mickorod Renard: I guess most cultures think of it that way,,although many individuals like to put it into a scientific explaination
Adams Rubble: It is safer to keep the wandering at the metaphorical level
sophia Placebo: it is said 1/3 of dreams are arising from withiin the body , 1/3 from satan , 1/3 from allah , you would know which is whic so you shouldnt tell your dreams , at least not immediatly and if it disturbe you you may pay some charity as charity prevents bad things from happening
Adams Rubble: alas, I must go. bye everyone :)
arabella Ella: bye Adams
sophia Placebo: would not 8
Wol Euler: bye adams, enjoy the afternoon
Pila Mulligan: bye Adams
Adams Rubble: thanks for the discussion :)
sophia Placebo: bye adams
Mickorod Renard: wow Sophie,,thats cool
Mickorod Renard: bye Adams
arabella Ella: bye everyone ... nite
sophia Placebo: bye ara
Wol Euler: bye ara, take care
Pila Mulligan: bye arabella
Mickorod Renard: I have to go now too,thankyou for a good chat
Pila Mulligan: bye Mick
sophia Placebo: bye mick
Wol Euler: bye mick! good night
Mickorod Renard: bye Ara
Mickorod Renard: nite everyone
Wol Euler: well, that was fascinating
Pila Mulligan: yes, it was
Pila Mulligan: sophia, i usually like to step back from dreams and contemplate them awhile before discussing them
Pila Mulligan: I've heard from several sources it is best not to discuss dreams
Pila Mulligan: usually because it is too revealing
Wol Euler grins and nods
Wol Euler: there is that ...
sophia Placebo: i usually want to tell but i follow that advice so i keep them for a while
Pila Mulligan: yep
Pila Mulligan: it is interesting to talk about dreams
Wol Euler: dreams are like particularly dense poetry, one needs to think about them and tease apart the strands of symbols
sophia Placebo: i guess yes like you said pila too revealing
Pila Mulligan: nice analogy Wol
Wol Euler: ty
Wol Euler: but they do often seem to be full of symbology and analogie
Wol Euler: +s
Wol Euler: it can take days to fully understand a dream
sophia Placebo: it can take years too
Pila Mulligan: and sometimes they seem to evade understanding altogether :)
Wol Euler nods
Pila Mulligan: recently I've been leaning toward associating dreaming with another primary purpose of sleep -- to maintain and restore the body internally
Pila Mulligan: we seem to need sleep to keep our boday from becoming exhausted -- sleep replenishes things internally
Pila Mulligan: so maybe dreams have a maintenance function also
Wol Euler: garbage collection :) or filing things away
Pila Mulligan: :) yep -- cleaning up and restoring
sophia Placebo: i remmber i typed something about that in my laptop, lazy to ype again
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: the world needs copy & paste between separate computers.
sophia Placebo: it was regarding dreaming in those who are heavy weed smokers
Wol Euler: ah :)
Pila Mulligan: maybe someone will discover Tesla-like atmospheric networking
Pila Mulligan: marijuana dreams?
sophia Placebo: cant remmber where in the net i paste that
Pila Mulligan: well, I suppose it is getting to be real life time for Pila now
Pila Mulligan: if Spohia finds it, I hope she posts it in the log
Wol Euler: yes, and I. Sorry, Sophia! When you get back, please speak the link so that it gets into the session log and we can look it up!
Pila Mulligan: :) thanks Wol -- and thanks Sophia
Wol Euler: I'll IM her that in case she doesn'T have the local history window open
Wol Euler: goodnight pila, take care
Pila Mulligan: bye bye
Wol Euler: ah, there you are!
Wol Euler: heheh
sophia Placebo: hope less
Wol Euler: ah well ... thank you for trying
sophia Placebo: :) i hope i was not dreaming
Wol Euler: you were not talking your sleep at least!
Wol Euler: but I must go. Goodnight, take care.
sophia Placebo: :) , see you later then , bye
Wol Euler: bye
sophia Placebo: link
sophia Placebo: the link