2009.05.10 19:00 - Dreamtime

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    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

    I was joined by Tarmel Udimo, Pila Mulligan, Adelene Dawner, and Threedee Shepherd

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Steve, seems like I haven't seen you for a while
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, this isn't your usual hour
    Tarmel Udimo: no I am having to make changes
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pila
    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve and Tarmel
    stevenaia Michinaga: are you in Europe?
    Tarmel Udimo: the 1:00pm which I used to go to is like 6:00am for me
    Tarmel Udimo: hi Pila
    Tarmel Udimo: no Australia
    stevenaia Michinaga: aww
    Tarmel Udimo: so sometimes getting up that early is Ok
    stevenaia Michinaga: what time is it there now?
    Tarmel Udimo: 12:07pm
    stevenaia Michinaga: lunch
    Tarmel Udimo: how you doing Pila?
    Tarmel Udimo: almost:)
    Pila Mulligan: fine thanks -- that's Monday in Australia, Steve :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Tarmel Udimo: yep!
    Pila Mulligan: just came in from planting and fixing a garden bed -- dirty but fun
    Pila Mulligan: hi Threedee
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was planting today too
    Pila Mulligan: hi Ade
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi ThreeD and Ade, long time no see
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Three, it;s been a while
    Adelene Dawner: hiya :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi folks. It was a busy week :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Ade
    Pila Mulligan: is the new sim done now?
    Pila Mulligan: the university project?
    Threedee Shepherd: Pretty much except for details
    Threedee Shepherd: It's being used.
    stevenaia Michinaga: congrats
    Pila Mulligan: cool, I'd like to see it
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Tarmel Udimo: was that the one you showed me a awhile back Ade?
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, Miami Dade College Virtual Campus
    Pila Mulligan: thanks, I'll visit it soon
    Adelene Dawner: I think so, Tarmel.
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pila Mulligan: are they using it for classes?
    Adelene Dawner nuzzzles Steve. "Hiya"
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
    stevenaia Michinaga: I see the auto recorder has been enhanced to send the log via email now... very nice
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Tarmel Udimo: it was kind of doing that before but intermittently
    stevenaia Michinaga: I only received it via local chat, so had to log on to get the web address of the log
    stevenaia Michinaga: this will make it one step less
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    stevenaia Michinaga: one meeting we were talking about aboriginal dream-time, Tarmel, is there anything you can tell us about it from any contact with their culture you may have had?
    stevenaia Michinaga: not to put you on the spot
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: Sorry just responding to an email
    Tarmel Udimo: well its very complex
    Tarmel Udimo: and some of the original culture got wiped out through colonization
    Tarmel Udimo: but essentially the Dreamtime refers
    stevenaia Michinaga: I understand there is not "one" culture
    Tarmel Udimo: to the place where all their myths and gods reside
    Pila Mulligan Googles a video of a didgeridoo
    Pila Mulligan: http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=ARL&ei=6YoHSsH1IJLitAOIw8jXAQ&resnum=1&q=didgeridoo&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#
    Tarmel Udimo: it is not one culture or language
    stevenaia Michinaga: there are nice ones on youtube
    Tarmel Udimo: before the English came I think there were about over 60 Language groups
    Threedee Shepherd:
    Wikipedia: In Australian Aboriginal mythology, The Dreaming or Altjeringa (also called the Dreamtime) is a sacred 'once upon a time' [1] time out of time in which ancestral Totemic Spirit Beings formed The Creation. Fred Alan Wolf opens chapter nine of The Dreaming Universe (1994) entitled The Dreamtime with a quote from The Last Wave, a film by Peter Weir: Aboriginals believe in two forms of time; two parallel streams of activity. One is the daily objective activity, the other is an infinite spiritual cycle called the "dreamtime", more real than reality itself. Whatever happens in the dreamtime establishes the values, symbols, and laws of Aboriginal society. It was believed that some people of unusual spiritual powers had contact with the dreamtime.
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Moyra
    Moyra Ares: oops sorry
    Pila Mulligan: Hi Moyra
    Threedee Shepherd: more wiki:
    "Dreaming" is also often used to refer to an individual's or group's set of beliefs or spirituality. For instance, an Indigenous Australian might say that they have Kangaroo Dreaming, or Shark Dreaming, or Honey Ant Dreaming, or any combination of Dreamings pertinent to their "country". However, many Indigenous Australians also refer to the creation time as "The Dreaming". The Dreamtime laid down the patterns of life for the Aboriginal people. "The Dreaming" was the time of creation.[

    Moyra Are joined us

    Tarmel Udimo: Moyra is a friend of mine, a great builder in SL
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Moyra
    Moyra Ares: hello everybody
    stevenaia Michinaga: will it be ok to record your comments for our log
    Tarmel Udimo: Threedee and Adelene are great builders too and actually do it for a living in RL
    Moyra Ares: wow building for a living would be a dream of mine
    stevenaia Michinaga: well it;s almost a living for those who do it in Rl...grins
    Tarmel Udimo: Well after living in Australia for 20 years I can finally say I am just begging to understand their culture
    Adelene Dawner: It is pretty awesome ^.^
    Tarmel Udimo: beginning
    Tarmel Udimo: the difficulty is that a lot of the intiations from the tribal elders have not been passed down
    Tarmel Udimo: so there are parts of the culture that are dying out
    Tarmel Udimo: there are very complex family linage
    Tarmel Udimo: who you can and can't marry etc
    Moyra Ares: one question...who said that the dreaming is a relict of a past?
    Tarmel Udimo: not me?
    Tarmel Udimo: Moyra is in OZ too
    stevenaia Michinaga: no one, we explore it here at one of our more structured meetings
    Moyra Ares: ~scretches her head~
    Moyra Ares: i read it up there in the wiki comment
    stevenaia Michinaga: we meet 4 times a day

    Bacon Hellershanks joined us and I IM'd him the details od our discussion group

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Bacon
    stevenaia Michinaga: please join us
    Bacon Hellershanks: Hi. This is my first time here.
    Moyra Ares: welcome bacon
    Threedee Shepherd: Wiki was being quoted by me. I did not put it all in.
    Pila Mulligan: hi Bacon
    Tarmel Udimo: hi bacon
    Tarmel Udimo: sorry folks on the phone in RL
    Moyra Ares: what was this fellows name who translated dream time stories
    stevenaia Michinaga: I'll give bacon the background in IM
    Moyra Ares: Reid
    Moyra Ares: i think
    Threedee Shepherd: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamtime
    Threedee Shepherd: I found Chatwin's book, "Songlines" to be an interesting perspective on the culture
    Moyra Ares: i was reading some stories and i have the impressions that most people treat those stories about something in the past and a finished story
    Moyra Ares: do you think that dreamtime stories are a finished closed thing?
    Threedee Shepherd: I suspect, Moyra, it depends on how many of the aboriginals still live the "old way", which is probably diminishing as current elders die.
    Adelene Dawner: Does whether or not people are living that culture even matter, in the answer to that question?
    Moyra Ares: maybe not when we see it it as the dreaming of the land
    Moyra Ares: the land is always here
    Threedee Shepherd: Complex implications to that question, Ade, it seems to me.
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Moyra Ares: "old way" means people who believe in the dreaming or dream time...?
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, not only believe but live it, I am suggesting.
    Moyra Ares: ~nods~
    Moyra Ares: really fascinating stuff
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi I'm back
    Threedee Shepherd: If The Dreaming is analogous or even homologous to what we call "Being" in Play As Being, then it lasts no matter what. However, if a particular *Way* is needed for experiencing Being from the Dreamtime perspective, then it matters. Of course there is no perspective when Being is experienced, but that is still another level.
    Tarmel Udimo: still talking about indigenous culture?
    Pila Mulligan: welcome back Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: ty
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, quite a different perspective on consciousness and what is RL
    Moyra Ares: when I'm sitting in the bush on a rock i have the feeling being close to some sort of dreaming or dreamtime
    stevenaia Michinaga: from a very old culture
    Tarmel Udimo: I have two step kids that are half aboriginal
    Tarmel Udimo: its been fascinating connecting to their heritage
    Tarmel Udimo: which is still very much alive for them
    Moyra Ares: ~nods~
    Tarmel Udimo: they come from up North where the tradition is still strong unlike kids that have no kinship or only know city living
    Tarmel Udimo: Northern Territories which we call the top end

    Pema Pera joined us

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pema
    Tarmel Udimo: but the culture is much more about kinship and family ties
    Pila Mulligan: hi Pema
    Adelene Dawner: hiya Pem ^.^
    Tarmel Udimo: hi pema
    Pila Mulligan: "The Hawaiian word for dream, moe`uhane, means 'soul sleep.' But rather than sleep, spirits roamed through the nights of old Hawai`i and had great adventures in dreams. While sleeping, people communicated with the aumakua, their ancestral guardians, and this important relationship was kept alive through dreaming." http://www.carenloebelfried.com/book3.html
    Threedee Shepherd: One aspect I have read about (I lived in Canberra 1969-71) is that the extremely close connection with the earth, animals and elements that is part of the Dreaming and the Songlines, has a practical application in terms of adapting to living in the harsh environment that is the outback
    Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
    Tarmel Udimo: going for a splash pema?
    Pema Pera: :-) I'm on a slooooow connection
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: sooooooooooooooooory to heeeeeeeeeear that:)
    Pema Pera: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps if we type louder he will hear us better
    Tarmel Udimo: yes ThreeD Songlines are actual lines on the earth that the follow for hunting and also mark out territories
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    Tarmel Udimo: so how's japan pema?
    Pema Pera: oh, fine, keeps me busy :)
    Pema Pera: (just snuck out of a meeting room, but have to leave for lunch in a few minutes -- just wanted to say hello)
    stevenaia Michinaga: we won't tell
    Tarmel Udimo: missing the Old Pagaoda?
    Threedee Shepherd: I will wear my skeptical hat and note that it is interesting to note that humans of all cultures attempt to deal with the mysteries of daily lived experience by positing a deeper, or parallel or different way of knowing/being that I might characterize as something on the "other side" of the mystery.
    Pema Pera: scientists also posit that the world is quite different than meets the eye :-)
    Threedee Shepherd: Or to put it another way. this life is not enuf, we want heaven, too.
    Pema Pera: and in both cases, the claims are reported to be backed up by experiments
    stevenaia Michinaga: heaven?
    stevenaia Michinaga: backed up by experiments
    Pema Pera: of course, you could call science wishful thinking if you didn't have access to the experimental evidence
    Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps, Pema, depending on how we define experiments AND reproducibility, but that goes in a different direction.
    Pila Mulligan: I've been to heaven many times :)
    Tarmel Udimo: Just listening to Caroline Myss online, her first statement that there is no religion when thinking about 'Being' that these are just stories to help us bridge the gap

    The conversation then moves to discussion of the Higgs Boson, patterns and fractals, physics is never far from  from us here.

    Threedee Shepherd: Well, Pema, to me dark matter and the big bang are still closer to wishful thinking than experimentally proven. *I* will not be surprised if the Higgs Boson is never observed;>
    Pema Pera: yes, I prefer to focus on experience, rather than stories -- though it can help to then talk about experience, in order to share
    Pema Pera: I will be, Threedee
    Pema Pera: but perhaps I know too much about the Higgs boson :-)
    Pema Pera: I worked on that topic as a grad student . . . .
    Tarmel Udimo: Higgs Boson?
    Pema Pera: what gives us all mass
    Pema Pera: without that, all elementary particles would be massless
    Pema Pera: and it is supposed to be discovered any day (year) now . . .
    Pila Mulligan: would there still be energy ,Pema?
    Pema Pera: it has been predicted a few decades ago
    Threedee Shepherd: I am not trying to be an expert, just someone who notes that it is always "just" a few more MeV (Million Electron Volts) away ;>
    Pema Pera: yes, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Pema Pera: not always, Threedee, but yes, discoveries cannot be forced, nor the timing predicted
    Pila Mulligan: with the Higgs Boson, does energy somehow become mass then?
    Pema Pera: a photon is a particle that has no mass, meaning no rest mass; it can't sit still
    Pema Pera: an electron has a mass, a rest mass that is
    Pila Mulligan: I've met some of them :)
    Pila Mulligan: photons
    Pema Pera: a photon to has mass, equivalent to its energy
    Pema Pera: but no rest mass
    Moyra Ares: ~
    Pema Pera: but perhaps this is going too far afield :-)
    Pila Mulligan: what roles does the Higgs Boson play there, please -- with photons and electrons
    Pema Pera: Three brought up wishful thinking
    Pila Mulligan: this is an interesting thing
    Pema Pera: which is always mixed with experimental evidence
    Pema Pera: in science as well as spirituality, both
    Pema Pera: and in both cases, ideally, further experiments then serve as quality control
    Pema Pera: Pila, it's through the interactions with Higgs bosons that electrons acquire their mass; photons don't interact with them
    Tarmel Udimo: so are you saying someone has come up with a statement as to why things are the way they are but it hasn't been proved yet?
    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Threedee Shepherd: As one who calls himself a scientist, I am not ashamed to say, with a bit of distain, that scientists usually *find* what they are looking for, until they occasionally stumble over what is "really" there to be found. ^.^
    Tarmel Udimo: sounds like Life
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm, Tarmel ^.^
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe
    Pema Pera: research is hit and mss, dirty, complicated, full of pitfalls
    Pema Pera: just like life

    A really fun link

    Pila Mulligan: http://www.phy.uct.ac.za/courses/phy400w/particle/higgs.htm
    Tarmel Udimo: yes well I am researching archetypes at the moment
    Pema Pera: but with a large enough of scientists, peer interactions somehow seem to guarantee enough quality control
    Tarmel Udimo: thanks pila
    Pema Pera: at least for the last few hundred years that has been the case, a pretty good track record.
    Pema Pera: Well, I'm called away for lunch time!
    Threedee Shepherd: I agree, Pema
    Pema Pera: guess I have to increase my mass :-)
    Pema Pera: sorry to have to leave!
    Pila Mulligan: sayonara Pema-san
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe see you pema
    Pema Pera: bfn
    Threedee Shepherd: bye
    Moyra Ares: cya pema
    Threedee Shepherd: Tarmel, I think (and it is hardly an original thought) that the various cultural architypes reflect the way human consciousness interacts with daily experience, which accounts for the deep common aspects of architypes
    Pila Mulligan: Threedee, do you remember my asking you to remember a scientific subject about certain patterns that appear in nature? I cannot remember what the name was
    Pila Mulligan: like vectors, but not
    Pila Mulligan: patterns with mathematical significance
    Tarmel Udimo: yes and in fact the reason why I am listening to the Caroline Myss vidoes
    Tarmel Udimo: is because it links archetypes to the 12 parts of the brain
    Threedee Shepherd: fractals
    Pila Mulligan: thank you
    Pila Mulligan: Tarmel, I'm interested in the similarity between fractals and arcthypes
    Tarmel Udimo: how do fractals relate to that?
    Pila Mulligan: there was a recent New York Times theorizing an extension of fractals
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pila Mulligan: it did not say archetypes -- but I heard arcjtypes
    Pila Mulligan: in reading it
    Tarmel Udimo: meaning different fractals had different meanings?
    Pila Mulligan: looking for it :)
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20127011.600-can-fractals-make-sense-of-the-quantum-world.html?full=true
    Pila Mulligan: Can fractals make sense of the quantum world?
    Pila Mulligan: "Take the mathematics of fractals into account, says Palmer, and the long-standing puzzles of quantum theory may be much easier to understand. They might even dissolve away."
    Tarmel Udimo: thanks i'll have a read
    Pila Mulligan: the relationship is that an archtype is a pattern
    Pila Mulligan: in essence
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pila Mulligan: "According to mathematics, the invariant set of a chaotic system is a fractal."
    Tarmel Udimo: OK
    Tarmel Udimo: does not quite compute, but I am sure it will
    Pila Mulligan: "According to Palmer's hypothesis, the invariant set contains all the physically realistic states of the universe"
    Pila Mulligan: "What makes this really interesting is that it gets away from the usual debates over multiple universes and hidden variables and so on," says Bob Coecke, a physicist at the University of Oxford. "It suggests there might be an underlying physical geometry that physics has just missed, which is radical and very positive."
    Tarmel Udimo: ok
    Pila Mulligan: cultural architypes that reflect the way human consciousness interacts with daily experience may have a connection with even deeper patterns in the universe
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice that it relates to some"thing"...geometry
    Pila Mulligan: even dreams can have patterns :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes essentially that's what Myss is saying
    Tarmel Udimo: she takes about managing power which is always archetypes
    stevenaia Michinaga: I see Power-management as overrated in terms of affecting change
    Tarmel Udimo: OK
    Tarmel Udimo: well I am just starting to listen to the video
    stevenaia Michinaga: but everyone has their approach, I should watch more of her videos
    Pila Mulligan: hi Paradise
    Tarmel Udimo: I am hoping to hear more about the 12 aspects of the mind, there might be something there
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps I well understand the basis of her focus better

    Paradise Tennant arrives

    Paradise Tennant: hello :))
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Paradise
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi paradise
    Paradise Tennant: :))) hello everyone
    Tarmel Udimo: well its just what I'm doing at the moment:)
    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for joining is Bacon
    Bacon Hellershanks: Hello, Paradise. Goodbye, all. RL calls.
    Pila Mulligan: bye Bacon
    stevenaia Michinaga: interesting, there was a Batmobile out there when I arrived, it; gone now
    Tarmel Udimo: bye bacon
    Paradise Tennant: good nite bacon :))
    Tarmel Udimo: no still there
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must be off, long week ahead, thank you all for joining me
    Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
    Paradise Tennant: thanks steve .. sorry I arrived so late .. hope everyone has a great week :)))
    stevenaia Michinaga: great to have you join us Tarmel
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice meeting you Moyra
    Tarmel Udimo: thanks I'll be back
    Moyra Ares: cya steve
    Paradise Tennant: well >>>> I think I will step back into Rl too. be well all :))) big wave from Toronto :))
    Pila Mulligan: bye Paradise
    Tarmel Udimo: bye toronto
    Tarmel Udimo: we have several sessions a day
    Paradise Tennant: where is the schedule posted ?
    Tarmel Udimo: so you may want to come back
    Tarmel Udimo: did steve give you a notecard?
    Paradise Tennant: ahh kk
    Paradise Tennant: several
    Pila Mulligan: schedule: 1 am, 7 am, 1 pm and 7 pm SLT, here
    Paradise Tennant: yes :)) thank you I should have looked :))
    Paradise Tennant: well see you all again :)))
    Pila Mulligan: earlier Ade whether a culture requires that people be living and practicing it to continue to exist -- Hawaiians find a significant part of their cultural existence is vested in their deceased ancestors and their relationship to physical places, so the sense is that even if the culture submerges for a while, it will survive
    Threedee Shepherd: Well Pila, tell that to the Babylonians or the Pharaohs
    Pila Mulligan: :) who can say where to find them today
    Threedee Shepherd: That is my point
    Pila Mulligan: Sadaam rebuilt Babylon as a Disneyland theme park, I recently read
    Pila Mulligan: hey there hi there ho there
    Pila Mulligan: I'm not saying people should let go of their culture, just that cultural influences may not be superficial or fleeting
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pila Mulligan: .. and haven't you met a whole flock of former Queens of Egypt? ... they sure appear around here frequently :)
    Pila Mulligan: now that was a bad joke
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe
    Pila Mulligan: I once had a vision/dream that showed me the idea better than anything I had read or heard could express it ...
    Pila Mulligan: it related to a place where some radio stations wanted to build big antennas and support buildings
    Threedee Shepherd: Well, Pila if the Archeaopterans had a well developed culture and world view that is now totally lost because no one knows they even existed and they left no records, what does that matter?
    Pila Mulligan: but it was on a pristine part of a mountain, with several cultural relics nearby
    Pila Mulligan: one morning after having been there with a group opposing the development, I had this lucid dream
    Threedee Shepherd nods
    Tarmel Udimo: what was the dream Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: it was an old Hawaiian man in a loin cloth stadning by a relic
    Pila Mulligan: I was kind of hovering out of the scene nearby, but he saw me
    Pila Mulligan: he pointed at a rock where there was some bird doodoo
    Pila Mulligan: then he looked dup and me and projected an image ...
    Pila Mulligan: the image was of giant metal birds with fixed wings flying over Hawaii, dropping big globs of doodoo
    Pila Mulligan: it was easy to see ... then it started raining
    Pila Mulligan: and he pointed back at the rcok
    Threedee Shepherd: sounds a bit like the cargo cult
    Pila Mulligan: and the rain was washing away the bird doodoo
    Pila Mulligan: the message was, it only lasts for a while
    Pila Mulligan: except the cargo cult *wanted* the biud metal birds
    Pila Mulligan: big* metal birds
    Pila Mulligan: the doodoo image is not entirely similar :)
    Pila Mulligan: since then I have had a better appreciation of the profound apteince of Hawaiian elders
    Pila Mulligan: patience*
    Pila Mulligan: their cultural roots are deep
    Tarmel Udimo: meaning their culture will raise again;)
    Pila Mulligan: some day
    Pila Mulligan: naturally
    Pila Mulligan: just as it arose before
    Pila Mulligan: almost archetypally :)
    Pila Mulligan: but meanwhile, we beat the antenna plan :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi doug
    Tarmel Udimo: hi doug
    doug Sosa: i've got graphics problems so can't see anything, need to comeback later..
    Pila Mulligan: ok, see you later
    Pila Mulligan: well, it's time for Pila to think about making dinner
    Adelene Dawner: Enjoy it, Pila.
    Pila Mulligan: thanks Ade
    Pila Mulligan: nice to meet you Moyra, and nice as always to see you Tarmel, Ade and Threedee
    Tarmel Udimo: yes i am going to have to leave sooninsh
    Threedee Shepherd: enjoy, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: bye
    Tarmel Udimo: bye Pila
    Tarmel Udimo: well folks I am going to log out for a while
    Tarmel Udimo: I need to attend to some RL stuff
    Threedee Shepherd: bye Tarmel, we are discussing "business" via IM
    Tarmel Udimo: yes understand, Moyra and I have been too:)
    Tarmel Udimo: check out some of her builds and textures at some point when you have time
    Tarmel Udimo: she's great!
    Moyra Ares: ok...cya tarmel
    Threedee Shepherd: already have
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh
    Tarmel Udimo: bye for now
    Moyra Ares: :)
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