2009.05.12 01:00 - When is an escape not an escape?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Wester Kiranov. The comments are by Wester Kiranov.

     Strannik Zipper came in right at the clock, and we introduced ourselves.

    Wester Kiranov: hi strannik
    Strannik Zipper: greetings!
    Wester Kiranov: I don't think we have met before, but this is not your first time here, right?
    Strannik Zipper: That is correct - I'm technically one of the fill-in people for here
    Wester Kiranov: OK
    Strannik Zipper: Are you in Holland?
    Wester Kiranov: yes, how did you know?
    Strannik Zipper: name and language ability
    Strannik Zipper: plus it is not unusual to find Dutch people not far from anything that Piet is involved with
    Strannik Zipper: er Pema
    Wester Kiranov: that's true
    Strannik Zipper: So how did you come to be here?
    Wester Kiranov: I went to some of the kira summer schools, back in 2001 and 2002
    Wester Kiranov: and I met Piet there, and some of the others. Themn later they started kira cafe. And PaB.
    Strannik Zipper: Nice! where was the summer school held?
    Wester Kiranov: And you? Where are you from, how did you get here?
    Wester Kiranov: The summer school was in Amherst
    Strannik Zipper: I met Pema at a Time, Space and Knowledge retreat about 19 years ago in California
    Strannik Zipper: Two weeks of doing experiential exercises similar to the type that are done here and in Kira
    Strannik Zipper: and then I rediscovered some of his work on the internet
    Wester Kiranov: were you on SL already, or did you come here because of PaB/kira?
    Strannik Zipper: I was on SL already
    Wester Kiranov: I wasn't (you can tell by my name) ;-)
    Strannik Zipper: Well this group is one good reason to be here
    Wester Kiranov: I think so
    Strannik Zipper: There is a lot happening here now
    Strannik asked me what I was investigating, and I told him I had volunteered not to intoxicate myself. That was a good topic and we stayed with it. Sophia Placebo joined the conversation too.
    Strannik Zipper: So are there any primary aspects of being that you have been looking into?
    Wester Kiranov: I don't quite get your question. primary?
    Strannik Zipper: anything in the forefront of your investigations?
    Wester Kiranov: I was at Stim's discussion group last thursday, and I volunteered not to intoxicate myself for a week. Which is surprisingly hard.
    Wester Kiranov: All the things I am using to get away from myself and others
    Strannik Zipper: that can be very hard - especially when the pressure is on
    Strannik Zipper: I have all of my favorite "escapes"
    Wester Kiranov: I did not know I used so many escapes - but that is one of the points of the exercise
    Strannik Zipper: I find that I most want an escape when I am reacting to something
    sophia Placebo: greetings
    Wester Kiranov: hi sophia
    Strannik Zipper: greetings sophia
    Wester Kiranov: brb
    Wester Kiranov: back
    Strannik Zipper: sophia, we were talking about doing an exercise in which one resolves not to indulge in particular forms of escape that one is used to for a particular amount of time
    sophia Placebo: great topic
    sophia Placebo: what was the thoughts on table?
    Strannik Zipper: I was just commenting that I notice that my own desire for an escape of some kind is stronger when I am reacting to some person or situation
    Wester Kiranov: and that when you start paying attention to this kind of thing it's amazing how many things you use for escape
    Strannik Zipper: yeah, you can literally design a whole "lifestyle" around escapes
    sophia Placebo: so insight is the first step right?
    Strannik Zipper: most likely
    Wester Kiranov: I suppose it always is
    sophia Placebo: or recognition of the case and its conditions and reasons
    Wester Kiranov: almost always
    Wester Kiranov: insight in your personal style of escaping. So you can escape the escaping.
    Strannik Zipper: Other than being provoked by a "reaction" of some sort, I also notice that an escape is almost always a form of distraction of some kind
    sophia Placebo: the thing is sometime it is hard to tell is it escape or just sittin back and letting the storm pass for me
    sophia Placebo: how is it distraction?
    Strannik Zipper: well, it may be possible that some escapes are well designed - a good conscious exercise in taking a step back
    Strannik Zipper: and useful
    Strannik Zipper: then perhaps it isn't really an escape in the sense we are talking about it
    Wester Kiranov: I think it depends on whether you would be able to face the storm if you tried, and only you yourself have some idea about that
    sophia Placebo: true , but on long term i think that is escape , but in the long term the habit is well established
    Strannik Zipper: right, well If I angry at someone, it is often useful for me to go for a walk or do something else - if I try to face the person I am angry at, it might not go too well right away
    Strannik Zipper: but not facing one's situation by substituting a distraction can become a habit
    Wester Kiranov: right - and someone else would be able to face anger without harm being done, and for them doing the same would be an escape
    Strannik Zipper: Wester, that sounds right
    sophia Placebo: confrontation is not always the right choice, it is the situation in which you are able to confront but you choose to step back , escaping is a cumulative mechanisim for unresolved issues , its meant to pretend that no problem there in life and by not thinking about it the distraction is less
    sophia Placebo: but due the comulative effect it has , the next time escape bocome more urgent than the first
    Wester Kiranov: there are other ways to deal with an angry situation than confrontation or escape
    Strannik Zipper: right, so it isn't the external thing that one does, but rather the internal reason
    Strannik Zipper: anger is only one example
    sophia Placebo: true wester
    Wester Kiranov: yes, but it's the example we're using now (I think)
    sophia Placebo: well i guess anger is one way of escaping
    Strannik Zipper: I think the primary thing escape removes us from is awareness
    sophia Placebo: agrees
    Wester Kiranov: yes, and that does make it a bit strange to try and be aware of it
    Wester Kiranov: some weird loop
    Strannik Zipper: I find that if I want to escape present awareness, I don't like what is coming up in that awareness, perhaps because it threatens something I am identified with
    Wester Kiranov: I want to be aware of what I'm escaping from, but then I notice something, and I just run away faster
    sophia Placebo: awareness of our weak points and our potentials i guess
    Strannik Zipper: I have caught myself wanting to escape, and tried to just stay present, and I could, but there was a point at which it became too much, and so I let myself have the escape
    Strannik Zipper: but even consciously delaying the escape was helpful
    Strannik Zipper: I think I know what you mean by "run away faster"
    Strannik Zipper: I have also noticed that I could avoid the escape longer if I did not identify with various thoughts coming up in the moment of painful awareness
    sophia Placebo: i found my self escaping but didnt know why , i slow down my run , stand still and looked back , what im afraid of ,what im annoyed about ,why i do need to run ,why i need not to run for
    Strannik Zipper: interesting, sophia, did you learn what was making you run?
    sophia Placebo: almost , life is not as easy as math :)
    Strannik Zipper: hahaha - yeah
    Strannik Zipper: and the anwers aren't always in the back of the book either
    Wester Kiranov: :)
    sophia Placebo: yep
    Strannik Zipper: I did feel a bit of consolation lately - I was in a situation (project management-wise) that usually freaks me out - but I was able to step back a bit, and let it roll over, without trying to control everything, nor give weight to all of the thoughts about it, and things went more smoothly
    Strannik Zipper: So I saw a ray of hope at the end of the tunnel!
    Wester Kiranov: great
    Strannik Zipper: or insight, perhaps
    Strannik Zipper: it is amazing how much thoughts can simply drain energy or cause stress
    Wester Kiranov: it might all be about the right amount of distance - not too close, not too far
    sophia Placebo: finding the cause of my escape, made me to look directly of how my life is interwined for some reasons tha i have a control over and others that i dont, to fix it may be would need the same time it needed to reach what is it now , except that now im fixing not escaping , and though fixing need more energy phisically and mentally and on all levels but it make the vision more sharp and the mirrior more clear
    Wester Kiranov: like two dancers - they can't dance if they are completely intertwined, and they can't if they are a mile away from each other.
    Strannik Zipper: wow! - nice analogy
    sophia Placebo: :) nice analogy
    Wester Kiranov: it's one of my favorites ;)
    Strannik Zipper: too close, and you worry about getting your toes stepped on :)
    Strannik Zipper: sophia, does "fixing" require control?
    sophia Placebo: management is better start
    I had to go for few minutes...
    Wester Kiranov: (I have to go wake up my RL husband now. I'll be back in 5-10 minutes. I might still see you then, if not, this was a very nice conversation)
    sophia Placebo: see you later wester :)
    Strannik Zipper: (OK - see you at some point)
    sophia Placebo: i have to be perfect mess things up , i dont need to be perfect mess things up too , so i keep , perfectness is good goal and every step towards it is an acheivment in itself
    Strannik Zipper: what is perfectness?
    sophia Placebo: thats subjective thing, i guess everyone has his own vison on this though we might agree upon some points
    Strannik Zipper: what time zone are you in?
    sophia Placebo: gmt +3hrs
    Strannik Zipper: I'm on the US West Coast, so I am up very late
    sophia Placebo: :) it is mid day here
    Strannik Zipper: well I am up well past my bed time! - If I stay too muc later I will be waking up in mid day!
    Strannik Zipper: nice discussing with you again
    sophia Placebo: nice to meet you starn :) happy dreams
    ... and was back just in time to say bye to Strannik.
    Strannik Zipper: OK - have a good day
    sophia Placebo: bye
    Strannik Zipper: later
    sophia Placebo: *:::* WELCOME BACK *:::*
    Wester Kiranov: just back in time to say bye
    Wester Kiranov: oh, you're staying? just one more minute then
    Sophia and me sat for a few more minutes and then we said bye as well.
    Wester Kiranov: back again
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Wester Kiranov: ah-you've finally rezzed completely :)
    sophia Placebo: =)
    sophia Placebo: g2g, see you later wester , nice to meet you :)
    Wester Kiranov: cu later then. bye
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