2009.05.17 13:00 - Dreams,fractals,and other universals

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.


    During this session we continued the theme of dreams and dreaming but also meandered creatively into notions about the collective unconscious, fractals and other expressions of universal trends.  Several URLs were offered and it was again a lively discussion.   I have deleted some of the intros and greetings to go to the heart of the discussion.




    Maxine Walden: The last couple of Sunday 1pm sessions we have been considering aspects of dreams and dreaming...we could do so again, if there is interest...or of course consider any topics of interest
    Pila Mulligan: I like the dreams topic, Maxine
    Wol Euler: I had an instance of thinking-while-asleep this morning, not exactly a dream.
    Maxine Walden: like to hear about that, Wol...
    Wol Euler: I woke knowing that I had made a serious error in some drawings on Friday afternoon, and had to go in to fix them today
    Maxine Walden: ah...sort of like a startle experience?
    Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza
    sophia Placebo: thats nice thing to happen
    Pila Mulligan: hi ELiza
    sophia Placebo: hi eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi! :)
    Maxine Walden: hi, Aremisia
    Artemisia Svoboda: Hello, all
    Wol Euler: mmm, hard to describe. As I woke up, I knew it. Not exctly a dream, I hadn't been dreaming about work or the project or hte office
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Eliza and Artemisia
    Pila Mulligan: hi Aremisia
    Wol Euler: but clearly the results of some overnight thought
    sophia Placebo: hi aremisia
    Wol Euler: hello eliza, artemisia
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Nymf, Artemisia (and everyone)
    Maxine Walden: yes, sort of like a clarity which becomes clear after night thoughts as it were...
    Adelene Dawner: I know exactly what you mean, Wol - I actually had the same kind of thing happen the other day - it wasn't like I'd been dreaming, it was like I'd been thinking, came to the conclusion "I need to do X" (I can't even remember what it was now, though), and very naturally got up to go do it. :)
    Wol Euler nods.
    Pila Mulligan: that's interesting Wol, how sleeping told you of a not yet unrecognized waking situation
    Pila Mulligan: and Ade :)
    Maxine Walden: yes, very interesting...
    Eliza Madrigal: (love the sparkles as you type Adelene) :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Maxine Walden: perhaps when the noise of the day is less, these realizations come to the surface easily
    Maxine Walden: or they may take time to gestate, which is another thing that happens during sleep or rest
    Wol Euler: I think so. In my case, I had misread the instructions on Friday, and woke today knowing that I had done so
    Maxine Walden: yes, the unconscius mind seems to 'know' and correct our conscious efforts sometimes
    Maxine Walden: as if watching over us...
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Maxine Walden: that deeper wisdom of the dreaming self, perhaps?
    Eliza Madrigal: a wider-seeing, I think sometimes... like it can hold more at once?
    Pila Mulligan: I agree, but then, Maxine, there are also dreams that seem more follish than waking life
    Pila Mulligan: foolish*
    Maxine Walden: better states, deeper wisdom of the unconscious self, as not all dreams are wise
    Pila Mulligan: so it seems to have the whole specturm
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Maxine Walden: yes, think so, Pila, as sometimes the dreaming self may just resonate with the chaos of the conscious/confused self...
    Eliza Madrigal has had wonderful and surprising insights come from absolutely absurd dreams...packaging not always the thing. :)
    Pila Mulligan: so it seems :)
    Nymf Hathaway: agrees with Eliza
    Wol Euler: heh, yes
    Maxine Walden: indeed, Eliza
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I agree, what Maxine called the 'wisdom of the dreaming self' can allow us to learn by seeming absurdities :)
    Maxine Walden: which may be interesting in itself...that the absurd can be so communicative to our sensitive selves
    Pila Mulligan: some dreams are like riddles
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Maxine Walden: yes, Pila...inviting our study, exploration
    Maxine Walden: ever wonder 'who' is the dream-maker? Who is the architect?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: any ideas, Maxine?
    Maxine Walden: it is inviting to personify the process, at least for me, some wise 'person'...
    Maxine Walden: but I have moreless settled on appreciation of a process as the creator/architect, a process which is active and
    Maxine Walden: trying to convey meaning, or to bridge the unconscious with the conscious self....so perhaps no 'person' but a wise 'process'
    Maxine Walden: but what are others' experiences, thoughts about this question?
    Pila Mulligan: Maxine, do you imagine it is a process arising from within the individual, or mor eof a collective process
    Eliza Madrigal: The dream-maker seems capable of seeing many angles at once, but only with permission
    Eliza Madrigal: and that to me suggest collective somehow....
    Maxine Walden: My current thought, Pila, is that we each have very individual dreams but that the dreaming process is likely some gift from evolution...
    Maxine Walden: and that may be a collective phenomenon. What do others think?
    Pila Mulligan: nice
    Nymf Hathaway: I tend to agree with that Maxine... I think much of our dreamworld is given by genes (hope I wrote that correct)
    Wol Euler: "collective" is an interesting idea, perhaps correlates to minority aspects of self?
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm
    Maxine Walden: minority aspects, Wol?
    Eliza Madrigal: layers of individual/layers of collective?
    Wol Euler: I called them "minority personalities" that get expressed in dreams
    Maxine Walden: ah...various internal voices...etc
    Maxine Walden: the other day I came across that phenomenon of a 'song in mind' which is communicative but it may take some time to learn the message.
    Maxine Walden: eg. someone coming home from the hospital has the tune from "When Johnny comes marching home again..."
    Wol Euler: :)
    Maxine Walden: or a song linked with someone which comes to mind on their birthday...all the song stuff occurring out of awreness...that is what is so interesting, that 90 % or more of what goes on inside is out of awareness.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey Scathach :)
    Maxine Walden: welcome Scath
    Pila Mulligan: hi Scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello all, sorry to be so late
    Wol Euler: hello scath
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello :)
    Maxine Walden: we've been considering aspects of dreams and dreaming, including that inner wisdom so out of awarenss
    Pila Mulligan: Wol's comment reminded me of an image from a Chinese meditation book that portrays a high state of meditation -- called 'the center in the midst of conditions' -- it seems to show a situation where a meditator's many minority personalities or internal voices are integrated into a single view of things
    Pila Mulligan: http://s3.amazonaws.com/jef.mindtouch.com/10048348/258/0?AWSAccessKeyId=1TDEJCXAPFCDHW56MSG2&Signature=Qu7IwTFqyV6hsiIXFQteuS5v/qs%3d&Expires=1242592157
    Maxine Walden: ah...oh, thanks, Pila!
    Pila Mulligan: isn't that an interesting image :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: centred awareness?
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Eliza Madrigal: it didn't come up for me... said acces denied... let me try again
    Maxine Walden: actually if did not come up for me either...
    Scathach Rhiadra: same for me, no access
    Pila Mulligan: ok, let me try something lse
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.kanawai.net/sogf.gif
    Maxine Walden: oh, yes, there it is...
    Nymf Hathaway: Nice Pila :)
    Maxine Walden: Wol, does that image resonate for you?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes great image
    Maxine Walden: also reminds me of fractals...
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, it is a great image, thanks Pila
    Eliza Madrigal nods.. can see that Maxine
    Pila Mulligan: fractals -- interesting, how so, Maxine?
    Maxine Walden: oh, guess not precisely fractals, but each minority personality seems to have thoughts that are very close to images of the personality...the ever branching of the similar
    Wol Euler: I thought so too, actually, the way each personality is the root of a set of others, each of which is ...
    Pila Mulligan: "Take the mathematics of fractals into account, says Palmer, and the long-standing puzzles of quantum theory may be much easier to understand. They might even dissolve away."http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20127011.600-can-fractals-make-sense-of-the-quantum-world.html?full=true
    Pila Mulligan: fractals may be the essential archtypes of the universe
    Pila Mulligan: hi ara and Mick
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Arabella, Mick
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone
    Wol Euler: hello mick, ara
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: hiya everyone
    sophia Placebo: hi ara and mick
    Maxine Walden: hi, Mick and Ara
    Mickorod Renard: soz im late
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Arabella and Mickorod
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Maxine Walden: another great URL, Pila, re fractals...
    Mickorod Renard: Pila,,I am into fractals
    Mickorod Renard: can I have the link pls
    Pila Mulligan: me too
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20127011.600-can-fractals-make-sense-of-the-quantum-world.html?full=true
    Mickorod Renard: thanks
    Mickorod Renard: a ha..i have read that one
    Pila Mulligan: this idea of fractals may work for the universe the way Jung's idea of archtypes works for the personality
    Maxine Walden: now that is an interesting thought, Pila
    Wol Euler: hmmmmm
    Pila Mulligan: essential patterns
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: quintessential patterns actualy
    Mickorod Renard: you love that word Pila ;)
    Pila Mulligan: so it seems :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Great Word :)
    Maxine Walden: meditative space we are in?
    sophia Placebo: what a wonderful world melody in my mind is playing
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Maxine Walden: oh, sophia?
    Wol Euler: :)
    Mickorod Renard: have I missed something?
    Maxine Walden: Mick, I was just commently on the quiet after the bell...wondered about a meditative space
    Pila Mulligan: the phenomenon of a 'song in mind' Maxine mentioned earlier, and Nymf's mention of a dreamworld arising in part from our genes, and Wol's idea of "minority personalities" all reflect the thought that a collective set of patterns appear to us in various ways as individuals
    Mickorod Renard: ohh sorry,,I never manage to slow my mind down in the given time
    Eliza Madrigal: in thinking about synchronistic patterns...some log these like dreams and therefore notice more and more
    Maxine Walden: yes...
    sophia Placebo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WlbQPmXg08&feature=related
    Eliza Madrigal: beautiful song sophia.... now humming in my mind too :) hehe
    sophia Placebo: hehe :)
    Maxine Walden: and the presenceof the group seems to affect the patterns...perhaps on some level resonance among each member which affects the 'whole'
    Wol Euler laughs,watching.
    Wol Euler: sorry, back here now. (wipes grin off face)
    Wol Euler: I think there is interaction between them, yes, as in lucid dreaming where "we" steer the dreamer
    Pila Mulligan: and with Louis Armstrong -- nothing could be better for the music :)
    Mickorod Renard: is that where chanting comes in Pila,,to regulate a resonance in the collective minds?
    Pila Mulligan: chanting is a form of contemplation
    Pila Mulligan: it probably could serve that function, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: is it not linked to regulating resonance in the mind?
    Mickorod Renard: mmmm,,ok,,thanks
    Maxine Walden: dear friends, I have to leave in about 2 minutes...another meeting to go to...
    Mickorod Renard: this tune was my mums favorite
    Pila Mulligan: thanks, again, for a nice session Maxine
    Eliza Madrigal: Maxine, thank you as always... a great session and lots to consider :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Maxine, thank you:)
    arabella Ella: thanks Maxine
    Mickorod Renard: thanks maxine,,sorry again 4 being late
    arabella Ella: :)
    Nymf Hathaway: Thanks Maxine :)
    Wol Euler: bye maxine, thank you. enjoy your sunday.
    sophia Placebo: one more link : i didnt read it all only 3 pages of it but it is intersting for some maybe : http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=sweet-dreams-are-made-of
    Maxine Walden: nice discussion, all...
    Maxine Walden: bye all
    sophia Placebo: thanks maxine , bye
    Mickorod Renard: thnks Sophie
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    sophia Placebo: yw
    Mickorod Renard: have you ever gotten into a trance by listening to very reverberating tribal chants?
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, good night all, Namasté
    Mickorod Renard: hypnotic trance
    sophia Placebo: bye scath
    Mickorod Renard: bye scath
    Eliza Madrigal: Namaste' Scathach :)
    Nymf Hathaway: Bye bye
    Pila Mulligan: bye Scath
    Wol Euler: bye scath, sleep well
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now everyone :)
    Wol Euler: and bye eliza
    Mickorod Renard: bye eliza
    sophia Placebo: vye eliza
    Nymf Hathaway: Bye Eliza
    Adelene Dawner: 'night Scath
    arabella Ella: bye Scath
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza
    Adelene Dawner: cya, Eliza.
    Wol Euler: actually, I should go too :) Goodnight all, take care, be happy
    sophia Placebo: bye wol
    Mickorod Renard: nite Wol
    Pila Mulligan: bye Wol
    arabella Ella: bye Wol
    Nymf Hathaway: Bye everyone, thank you...hope to be back :)
    arabella Ella: bye Nymf
    Pila Mulligan: bye Nymf
    sophia Placebo: bye nymf
    Mickorod Renard: bye nymf
    Nymf Hathaway: :)) bye bye
    Pila Mulligan: looking forward to seeing you again:)
    Mickorod Renard: Pila, has Nymf settled in ok?
    Pila Mulligan: yes, she seems to be
    Pila Mulligan: Nymf had a nice discussion group for more than a year
    Pila Mulligan: then was away for a few months
    Mickorod Renard: yes? on what subject?
    sophia Placebo: reverberating?
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Pila Mulligan: Nymf's Science Circle at Kira's was one spinoff of her forum
    arabella Ella: cool
    Pila Mulligan: they had a topic for each week's session
    Pila Mulligan: chosen by the memebrs ahead of time
    Mickorod Renard: any branch of science in particular?
    Pila Mulligan: and prepared for intial presentaion by someone
    Pila Mulligan: the Sceince Circle was any sceince, the forum was anything at all
    Mickorod Renard: wow
    sophia Placebo: thats lively
    Pila Mulligan: she is Dutch, like Pema, maybe there is some Dutch skill here
    Pila Mulligan: :0
    Mickorod Renard: yea
    arabella Ella: :)
    arabella Ella: have you ever run any discussions yourself here Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: a few
    Pila Mulligan: at Nymf's that is
    Mickorod Renard: Pila, have you recently become interested in Fractals..or is it a long held interest?
    arabella Ella: oh i see
    Pila Mulligan: it is recent Mick, specifically from that article
    sophia Placebo: good night all :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye sophia
    arabella Ella: nite soph
    Mickorod Renard: nite Sophia
    arabella Ella: so you dont run any more discussions at the moment Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: no
    Pila Mulligan: after Nymf's froum ended I migrated here fro SL activity :)
    arabella Ella: oh ... what a pity ... may i ask ... if u had to run any discussions what topic would you choose?
    Pila Mulligan: nice Squee
    Pila Mulligan: at Nymf's my favorite one was Chinese philosophy
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,a nice way of putting it squee
    Adelene Dawner: (Squee: For me, religion is like a rhinoceros: I don't have one, and I'd really prefer not to be trampled by yours. But it is impressive, and even beautiful, and, to be honest, the world would be slightly worse off if there weren't any.)
    arabella Ella: mmmm chinese philosophy ... fascinating topic ...
    Pila Mulligan: deep topic too :)
    arabella Ella: yes
    Mickorod Renard: confusious?
    arabella Ella: in spite of my background in philosophy i must admit to not knowing much about chinese philosophy but ...
    Pila Mulligan: him too
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    arabella Ella: do you find many points of contact between world philosophies ... or specifically chinese and western?
    Pila Mulligan: my interest is the classic work that underlies all of Chinese philoophy, the I Ching
    Pila Mulligan: yes, ara
    Pila Mulligan: just as so many Chinese philosophers and arts derive form the I Ching
    arabella Ella nods
    Pila Mulligan: similar classic works inspire others elsewhere
    Pila Mulligan: and there are common patterns among them
    Pila Mulligan: form china to Hawaii to Nativ e Americans
    arabella Ella listens attentively
    Pila Mulligan: the most obvious common ground of traditional culutres in philosophy and sceince was a from of dualism like yin and yang
    Pila Mulligan: Hawaiians, for example, have Ku and Hina
    arabella Ella: do you find that the I Ching has had considerable influence on any particular renowned western philosophers?
    arabella Ella: oh yes ... dualisms ... like our western dualism of mind and body, scheme and concept etc
    Pila Mulligan: indirectly, perhaps
    Pila Mulligan: and in sceince, positive and negative energy
    arabella Ella: which i feel more work can be done in an attempt to overcome such dualisms ....
    arabella Ella nods
    Pila Mulligan: electrons and protons if they are still viable :)
    Pila Mulligan: as science
    Pila Mulligan: my sceince is pretty dated
    arabella Ella smiles
    Pila Mulligan: the Chinese explain it this way: everything simply is as a whole, Being in terms used here, but the mind needs to anaylze thinigs
    Pila Mulligan: and the first step in analysis is to divide
    Pila Mulligan: the whole into parts
    Pila Mulligan: and that step ipso facto leads to dualism
    arabella Ella nods
    arabella Ella: but ... is that the right way you think ... to achieve understanding?
    arabella Ella: does it not then mean we lose out on a holistic view?
    Pila Mulligan: you can appreciate the whole in contemplation, and you can analyze the whole in philosophy or scinece, neither is wrong
    Pila Mulligan: just like sleeping and waking :)
    Pila Mulligan: niether is better per se
    Pila Mulligan: both are needed, in fact
    arabella Ella: oh i see ... or any state in between sleeping and waking too :)
    Pila Mulligan: yes, and to me the joining element is ethics
    arabella Ella: why ethics?
    Pila Mulligan: to get from the highest contemplative state to the highest analystical state, and back, the bridge is ethics
    Pila Mulligan: it is their common ground
    Pila Mulligan: I need to go now, nice to visit and chat with you Ade, Ara and Mick -- see you next time :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Pila
    Mickorod Renard: thanks
    arabella Ella: bye pila thanks for your interesting insights
    Mickorod Renard: I need to go too
    Mickorod Renard: bye Adel and Ara
    arabella Ella: bye Mickorod
    Adelene Dawner: I should probably go too - this has been interesting to listen to, but I need to focus on my project. :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    arabella Ella: bye Ade
    Mickorod Renard: bye ;)


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