2009.05.20 13:00 - Time Exploration

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    The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

    Fefonz Quan: HI gen
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey!
    Fefonz Quan: hey hey
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey!
    genesis Zhangsun: I thought no one was going to come
    genesis Zhangsun: so I started checking email
    Fefonz Quan: we can call it a day if you want :)
    genesis Zhangsun: nah not unless you want to?
    Fefonz Quan: nope
    genesis Zhangsun: gen v. fefonz
    genesis Zhangsun: ;)
    Fefonz Quan: a dual at noon... papapammm
    genesis Zhangsun: so what do you think what should we duel about
    genesis Zhangsun: hows the time workshop going?
    Fefonz Quan: was much better today, when only the good guys showed up
    genesis Zhangsun: is it deepening you understanding of time?
    genesis Zhangsun: I know it is something you are really working with in your own practice
    Fefonz Quan: surely i see a lot of different angles of it
    genesis Zhangsun: such as?
    sophia Placebo: greeting fef and gen
    genesis Zhangsun: wow hi sophia
    Fefonz Quan: the angle of time as created by our mind,
    genesis Zhangsun: your blooming
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Sophia :)
    Fefonz Quan: nice orange blossom
    sophia Placebo: hehe ty
    Fefonz Quan: the angle of all being as time, the angle of time as another say we seperate between things
    genesis Zhangsun: v. the angle of a more objective time?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, sure
    Fefonz Quan: yet in some sense, beyond all those interesting ideas, i still struggle with my inner perception of it
    Fefonz Quan: feeling hard to really connect to some of those concepts.
    Fefonz Quan: for example (gave it here yesterday maybe), while contemplating APA by a pond here, and thinking about time too, the on going motion of the waves
    Fefonz Quan: kept presenting time flowing in front of me, and there was no way i could transcend this
    genesis Zhangsun: yes
    genesis Zhangsun: I recently about two months ago had an experience when I finally could
    genesis Zhangsun: it was amazing, I myself have been working with the same "problem"
    genesis Zhangsun: you tell yourself you are really in a dimension of "no time"
    genesis Zhangsun: and yet you see the passing of time everywhere
    genesis Zhangsun: like the water
    genesis Zhangsun: like the birds chirping, like the cars going by
    Fefonz Quan: yes, like reality hitting you on the head
    genesis Zhangsun: yes and yet the idea that there really is no time makes sense on some intuitive level
    genesis Zhangsun: thinking back to times when you felt like hours had passed and it was only minutes
    genesis Zhangsun: or the other way around
    Fefonz Quan: that is just differences in measurement, i find it very hard to jump from this to no time.
    genesis Zhangsun: so here is how I began "resolving" the competition between my intution and my observation
    sophia Placebo: hello arabella
    genesis Zhangsun: hey arabella
    arabella Ella: hiya
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Ara, talking time here
    Mickorod Renard: hi
    sophia Placebo: hi mickorod renard
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Mick
    arabella Ella: hiya Micko
    arabella Ella: talking time Fef?
    arabella Ella: you got some questions for us?
    genesis Zhangsun: shall we try a time experiment?
    sophia Placebo: sure
    Mickorod Renard: yes please
    Fefonz Quan: yes
    arabella Ella: ok
    genesis Zhangsun: okay so lets get into a 9 second like mode
    genesis Zhangsun: I will first describe
    genesis Zhangsun: and then we can do it together
    genesis Zhangsun: perhaps you have done this Fefonz
    genesis Zhangsun: so when I say 9 second like mode
    genesis Zhangsun: I mean dropping what we "have"
    genesis Zhangsun: to see what we are
    genesis Zhangsun: drop our self concepts, our perceptions, our prejudices, our assumptions as much as we can
    genesis Zhangsun: just be
    genesis Zhangsun: like being seeing
    genesis Zhangsun: drop the you grasping to see
    genesis Zhangsun: okay so starting from there (may take a couple minutes at least always does for me)
    genesis Zhangsun: okay now drop the past
    genesis Zhangsun: bring forth the images that lurk in the background
    genesis Zhangsun: of all the things you were just doing
    genesis Zhangsun: a minute ago, an hour ago, a year ago
    genesis Zhangsun: the past
    genesis Zhangsun: can you see somehow the unreality of it
    genesis Zhangsun: that it isn't here now?
    genesis Zhangsun: that you are not bound by that
    genesis Zhangsun: it doesn't define you
    genesis Zhangsun: so return to now
    genesis Zhangsun: do you feel yourself anticipating the next moment?
    genesis Zhangsun: thinking about the future?
    genesis Zhangsun: drop the future
    genesis Zhangsun: collect together the images again- the lists, the planning
    genesis Zhangsun: where you think you should be in one hour
    genesis Zhangsun: what should happen the next minute
    genesis Zhangsun: drop that
    genesis Zhangsun: so return to now
    genesis Zhangsun: water falling, birds chirping
    genesis Zhangsun: looking at your screen
    genesis Zhangsun: now drop the now
    genesis Zhangsun: what do you see?
    arabella Ella: may i ask a question ... or comment
    genesis Zhangsun: sure
    arabella Ella: i think it is very difficult for me to drop the now
    Fefonz Quan: (great exercise Gen, thanks)
    arabella Ella: unless i had lots and lots of practice
    arabella Ella: how can it be done?
    arabella Ella wishes i could ...
    Fefonz Quan nods
    genesis Zhangsun: yes dropping the now I also feel is the trickiest
    genesis Zhangsun: being now is already tough enough
    arabella Ella: yes
    genesis Zhangsun: I feel pretty good lighter if I can drop the past and the future
    genesis Zhangsun: I sort of ask myself why drop the now?
    arabella Ella nods
    Fefonz Quan: yes, the future was easiest for me, past much harder
    arabella Ella: and not just why but how too
    Fefonz Quan: drop the now - made me feel dizzy, i didn't understand what that means
    sophia Placebo: its like following the water wave -single one- and moving with it, so no now because now is ongoing , no past because im still with the same wave no future because the wave would still be a wave
    genesis Zhangsun: yes sophia that is a nice image
    arabella Ella: lovely way of describing it
    genesis Zhangsun: I can decribe what very strong experience I had with dropping the now
    Fefonz Quan: even the sentences of teh screen were evidence for recent past
    Mickorod Renard: interesting
    Fefonz Quan: yes please Gen
    arabella Ella: yes pls gen if u could
    sophia Placebo: plz gen
    Mickorod Renard: so the now is still there but only a moment of ever recuring new nows?
    genesis Zhangsun: yes one way to think about it mick
    sophia Placebo: no , no now as a fixed point in the vedio tape ,
    genesis Zhangsun: even to create a packaging by calling it "now" is limiting
    sophia Placebo: it is just moving wave from no whare towards no whare
    Mickorod Renard: a bit like a fly hitting the front of a moving train
    genesis Zhangsun: so here is my experience
    genesis Zhangsun: I was at the beach really "trying" to get this time thing
    sophia Placebo: assuming that the fly is blind , yes or that the train is in the outerspace
    genesis Zhangsun: I have been really "trying" for awhile
    genesis Zhangsun: in a non "trying" way ;)
    genesis Zhangsun: so I am at the beach
    genesis Zhangsun: looking at the waves
    genesis Zhangsun: and I go through this exploration
    genesis Zhangsun: I drop the past
    genesis Zhangsun: I feel that I can do that somehow
    genesis Zhangsun: when I recall the images of my past
    genesis Zhangsun: I can recognize that they are just pictures
    genesis Zhangsun: they really have no bearing on reality
    genesis Zhangsun: or very little
    genesis Zhangsun: just slices
    genesis Zhangsun: shadows
    genesis Zhangsun: I look at the water again
    genesis Zhangsun: I return to now
    genesis Zhangsun: I can feel the spray of the waves
    genesis Zhangsun: the freshness of the air in and out of my nostrils
    genesis Zhangsun: the birds squawking
    genesis Zhangsun: sand beneath my feet
    genesis Zhangsun: I am in the "now"
    genesis Zhangsun: I think about the future
    genesis Zhangsun: I can already picture myself
    genesis Zhangsun: walking away from this spot
    genesis Zhangsun: returning to my car
    genesis Zhangsun: driving away
    genesis Zhangsun: back home
    genesis Zhangsun: I can see all that
    genesis Zhangsun: and yet I stop and remember that none of that may happen
    genesis Zhangsun: that it really is figment of my imagination
    genesis Zhangsun: I drop the future
    genesis Zhangsun: I return to the waves
    genesis Zhangsun: I am in the now
    genesis Zhangsun: and it is pleasant there in the now
    genesis Zhangsun: and yet I can see that "now"
    genesis Zhangsun: is a limiting measurement just like past and just like future
    genesis Zhangsun: I am still trying in a very subtle way to hold on
    genesis Zhangsun: to something
    genesis Zhangsun: so I drop the now
    genesis Zhangsun: and I felt the world in a new way
    genesis Zhangsun: not as time
    genesis Zhangsun: but as energy
    genesis Zhangsun: the waves lapping on the shore
    genesis Zhangsun: they were not measures of time
    genesis Zhangsun: minutes passing
    genesis Zhangsun: but energy
    genesis Zhangsun: time as energy unfolding space
    genesis Zhangsun: revealing something
    genesis Zhangsun: revealing nothing
    genesis Zhangsun: it felt like blood rushing back into my veins
    genesis Zhangsun: everything was "alive" with time as energy
    genesis Zhangsun: it was a view of the world going from small nicely bite sized morsels
    genesis Zhangsun: artificial packaging of time
    genesis Zhangsun: to something raw, living, oxygenated
    genesis Zhangsun: thats it
    Mickorod Renard: well, thats something to ponder over Gen
    Fefonz Quan: yes, great experience and description Gen
    genesis Zhangsun: time in this form became some sort of nourishment
    genesis Zhangsun: as opposed to a cage
    genesis Zhangsun: thanks for letting me share
    arabella Ella: thanks so much for sharing gen
    arabella Ella: very intruiging ... and sounds so clear ... sounds easy but definitely isnt
    Mickorod Renard: yes thanks Gen
    genesis Zhangsun: try it this exloration a few times for yourself
    genesis Zhangsun: I always learn something
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i would take this nice exercise to ponder on Gen
    genesis Zhangsun: you are time, it is not something that is happening to you
    Fefonz Quan: here, when you wrote 'drop the 'now', it caught me by surprise, so for a second it was like the floor dropping beneath my legs
    genesis Zhangsun: yeah its scary
    genesis Zhangsun: I always got too scared before
    genesis Zhangsun: and fear made me hold on
    sophia Placebo: agrees with gen re time as energy , i have been preciving it as the change , i guess the energy enough to cause a change or the change of energy
    genesis Zhangsun: but like everything in life where fear holds you back when drop the fear of fear you find that isn't so scary at all, it in fact puts you more in touch with what is
    genesis Zhangsun: yes sophia
    genesis Zhangsun: its like Trumpa
    genesis Zhangsun: my favortite tibetan says
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    arabella Ella: so ... i am time ... i am the wave ... sounds a bit like kant's copernican revolution
    genesis Zhangsun: its not like pulling the rug out from under your feet
    genesis Zhangsun: its like a blue pancake (the sky) falling on your head
    Mickorod Renard: can u say more Ara
    sophia Placebo: whats kants revoulotion - briefly and simplified - :) ?
    genesis Zhangsun: got to go!
    genesis Zhangsun: team meeting
    genesis Zhangsun: thanks again
    Mickorod Renard: bye Gen..;)
    Fefonz Quan: Thanks Gen, see you soon
    sophia Placebo: bye gen , thanks for sharing
    arabella Ella: ty gen
    arabella Ella: will answer after silence :)
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    arabella Ella: ok so you all know about copernicus ... he was from poland
    arabella Ella: nicolas
    arabella Ella: he proved that the earth goes around the sun not vice versa
    arabella Ella: so the earth was no longer centre of universe
    sophia Placebo: yes
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    arabella Ella: now kant had his copernican revolution in a similar way
    arabella Ella: and it is related to some extent to what gen said about time being in us
    arabella Ella: kant realised as part of his brilliant philosophy
    Mickorod Renard: ohh?
    arabella Ella: that our brain must be structured so as to allow us to only perceive what is outside and beyond our thinking
    arabella Ella: only through the concepts of space and time
    arabella Ella: so it is like we wear 'spectacles'
    arabella Ella: which we cannot remove
    arabella Ella: not sure if that is clear?
    Mickorod Renard: I see,,,,or rather I dont he he
    arabella Ella smiles
    Mickorod Renard: but that wud make some sense
    arabella Ella: ok ... space and time are not 'things' that exist on their own outside our thinking
    arabella Ella: they are part of how our brain is structured
    arabella Ella: with the consequence
    Fefonz Quan: i see, and i think what gen was decribing is 'transcending' kunt
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,to make relative sense of things with
    arabella Ella: that we can never perceive anything as it really is ... independent of our thinking ... which is limited ... or structured in a certain way
    arabella Ella: Fef ... what i find similar here to what gen said is
    arabella Ella: space and time are in us
    arabella Ella: not outside us
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Fefonz Quan: i see
    arabella Ella: I am time and time is me
    arabella Ella: I am the wave and the wave is me
    arabella Ella: Fef is something on at Kira now?
    Fefonz Quan: apologize, i have to go to the Kira meeting. Namaste all :)
    arabella Ella: ciao Fef
    sophia Placebo: bye fef
    Fefonz Quan: team meeting, not workshop...)
    Mickorod Renard: if one can ,,sort of wear spectacles to see the reality of Kants theory,,what sort of advantage may we percieve?
    Mickorod Renard: bye Fef
    arabella Ella: it does not have to be seen as an advantage
    arabella Ella: it is just an observation on our human way of perceiving things outside our brains
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    arabella Ella: according to kant
    arabella Ella: due to the structure of our human brain
    arabella Ella: it is impossible for us to perceive anything outside space and time
    Mickorod Renard: but presumbly time has a practical purpose,,or does it?
    arabella Ella: i dont consider myself an expert on time Mick
    arabella Ella: so I do not think I have an answer to that question
    sophia Placebo: hmm , well if time is only your preciving of change , it is advisable when you do a presentaion to change your body position frequently , your voice tone and the slides
    arabella Ella: what do you think?
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Mickorod Renard: mm,ok but thankyou,,its interesting to ponder on that
    arabella Ella nods to sophia ... ehrm .... yes ... presentations ... :)
    arabella Ella: do you give presentations on a regular basis sophia?
    sophia Placebo: no , few when i was in school
    arabella Ella: ok i see
    sophia Placebo: what advantage of kants space theory
    arabella Ella: it is merely a description
    arabella Ella: some people take it as a limitation
    arabella Ella: as some claim that we cannot perceive reality outside our thinking
    arabella Ella: what kant called 'things in themselves'
    Mickorod Renard: I think finding the limits is great,,but sometimes its hard to know where the limit is
    arabella Ella: yes and reflection can bring up exceptions
    arabella Ella: plus ... there are lots of different at times conflicting interpretations of what kant had said
    arabella Ella: but that is philosophy
    arabella Ella: always raises more questions than it answers
    Mickorod Renard: yea
    arabella Ella: i must go now
    arabella Ella: bye Micko bye sophia
    Mickorod Renard: ok I am going,,bye
    sophia Placebo: lets try to do this , back in time - the changes that happened to oubye arar substance -
    sophia Placebo: bye ara
    Mickorod Renard: bye Ara, Sophie
    sophia Placebo: bye
    arabella Ella: we could try to do it next time soph if you wish
    arabella Ella: just keep it in mind
    arabella Ella: bye for now :)
    sophia Placebo: l:)
    sophia Placebo: bye
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