2009.05.31 13:00 - Dreams, Higg's boson and beyond...

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

    Another great discussion, wide-ranging.  I deleted some of the introductions, and 'hellos'  and began with our considerations about dreams and dreaming; did a couple of other edits as requested by discussants; otherwise leave the log for the reader's consideration.


    Maxine Walden: We have been thinking about dreams/dreaming among other things in these Sunday sesssions; any thoughts anyone would like to pursue?
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonder why I dream sometimes (or at least remember dreams sometimes) and not others
    Maxine Walden: interesting question, steve
    Travieso Sella: I have one. I often encounter this idea of dreams being sort of inseparable from reality. Or the line is least a it blurry in a way. I kind o fwonder however that there should be clear disctinctin bewteen dreams and other states.
    stevenaia Michinaga: dThere seems to be no reason either way
    stevenaia Michinaga: are there "cronic dreamers"
    Maxine Walden: two strands: recalling dreams and not; and the distinction between dreaming and non-dreaming states
    Maxine Walden: hi, wol
    Travieso Sella: I think the disctinction is quite clear, which is why I ring it up. In order to dream, there must be a sleeper. In order for a sleeper, there must be a waking life.
    Travieso Sella: The question still might remain, which state is which
    Maxine Walden: Trav, many feel that dreaming occurs when we are sleeping but also awake, that it is constantly going on...does that alter your question?
    Maxine Walden: Steve, one thought that comes to my mind re your question is what has to be in place so that the dream is recalled by the conscious mind...is that how you see it?
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I assume I dream but just can't recall much of it, most of the time
    Travieso Sella: yeah, I think it does maxine. I still wonder though about the question, am I dreaming now? Or am I in someone else's dream. Which, I don't think I am.
    stevenaia Michinaga: then I took a 20 minute nap last week and had 3 distinct "dreams"
    stevenaia Michinaga: I coudn't have been to deeply asleep
    stevenaia Michinaga: so the proximity of dream to awake can;t be that far separated
    Maxine Walden: Trav, could it be both, that you are dreaming, and possibly in someone else's dream?
    Travieso Sella: I suppose it could.
    Maxine Walden: Steve, yes, interesting, sometimes for me I recall dreams that seem to occur very near waking...but also that there are some which seem to come from very deep sleep, or rather from a deep state of wisdom, deep answers to questions I have been pondering
    Maxine Walden: and do you sometimes find that you know that you have to sleep or nap in order to have a dream? I have that experience not infrequently
    Maxine Walden: as if I know I need to have a dream and am drawn to sleep just for that dream
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I use sleep (or the next day) to answer important questions, even when pressed, as the time between days, even if dreaming is not overtly part of the span, allows the mind subconcious to assist with the answers,
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone :0
    Maxine Walden: hi, sophia
    stevenaia Michinaga: it walways seems to be a more informed answer
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi sophia
    Scathach Rhiadra: hello Sophia
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Sophia
    Pila Mulligan: hi Sophia
    Maxine Walden: yes, the wisdom available from dreams and dreaming is impressive
    stevenaia Michinaga: has that aspect been researched?
    Maxine Walden: which, the wisdom researched, Steve?
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: wisdom available from dreams and dreaming
    Maxine Walden: not sure...not sure I have seen research published, but bet we each have our own experiences, ie personal researches
    Maxine Walden: to draw upon and to share
    Maxine Walden: and not sure how one would design a 'research' protocol re assessing wisdom...
    Maxine Walden: but I am not a very stringent research time person
    stevenaia Michinaga: there seem to be no "lets all have a 90 second dream" and discuss it, ability built into humans
    Maxine Walden: my personal notion is that there is a process of transformation at the boundary between conscious and unconscious sectors of the mind, and the sophistication of that transformational capacity (which may vary in each of us over time) is a large factor in the wisdom
    Pila Mulligan: there is certainly a transition at the boundary between conscious waking and unconscious dreaming worlds
    stevenaia Michinaga: boundry between control and the randomess of dreaming
    Maxine Walden: yes,Pila
    Pila Mulligan: we usually seem to easily see the distinction between waking and dreaming
    Pila Mulligan: waking life is full of specifics -- place, time and date, weather, social rules, gravity, etc. -- that define the environment of waking life -- there are not many comparable specifics in dreams ...
    Pila Mulligan: it is probably because of the continuity of these specifics that we do not question the waking environment as a collective experience -- so a group of people in waking life see themselves in a shared environment without thinking about it ...
    Pila Mulligan: but because of the discontinuity of the dreams world, the shared environment notion is less certain, the idea of a group dream is therefore met with skepticism ...
    Pila Mulligan: but I still wonder, how do we interct i dreams?
    Maxine Walden: and yet an intriguing concept, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: interact*
    Maxine Walden: if there is a collective unconscious, one we all share and inherit, then the notion of shared dreaming might not seem so far fetched
    Wol Euler nods
    Wol Euler: how to know though? Perhaps it happens every night, just not wiht people whom we know in our waking lives?
    Wol Euler: so we would never meet tehm to ask the right question.
    Wol Euler: how ironic that would be
    Pila Mulligan: I think there also should be some skepticism about the assumption that a group of people in waking life actually see the same shared environment
    Maxine Walden: 'ships passing in the night' sort of thing, Wol
    stevenaia Michinaga: ot people from past lives.. perhaps that is where we meet?
    Wol Euler: exacctly
    Travieso Sella: I think it's interesting that there are states in waking life like sleepiness, trance-like states or quit relaxation that is neither a waking state nor dreaming many times
    Scathach Rhiadra: does it remind you of Le Jette Wol?
    Travieso Sella: quiet*
    Wol Euler smiles and nods
    Wol Euler: travelling in time in his sleep
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Maxine Walden: Trav, my understanding is that we may not be aware that we are dreaming when we are awake, like right now...so we may be feeling/doing etc, but also as well dreaming...only perhaps to become aware of the dream, if it presents itself to the remembering mind down the line
    Pila Mulligan: our ancestors learned to pay attention to the details of the waking environment
    Pila Mulligan: to survive
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, they did seem to recover more quickly to the dream of being eaten by a lion, then in a waking
    Pila Mulligan: we still give those details first priority it seems, but I agree that the dream world can encroach into the waking world
    Travieso Sella: I still think that waking life is just a different kind of dream in a way
    Pila Mulligan: but one with massa nd gravity
    Pila Mulligan: mass and*
    Maxine Walden: might well be, trav
    stevenaia Michinaga: you have those in dreams too, the falling dreams, for instance
    Pila Mulligan: but yuo bounce there, Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: or never hit bottom
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: Pema got me going on this thought the other day by some comments about the Higgs boson -- how photons lack mass -- do we dream in photons then?
    Maxine Walden: tell us more, pila aboutyour thought...
    Pila Mulligan: I'm afraid that is it :)
    Pila Mulligan: if physicists say photons are a form of eneregy without mass
    Pila Mulligan: it just sounds like the dream state to me
    Pila Mulligan: and I am woefully unscientific
    Pila Mulligan: oh, but wait, the next step is you stir in the Higgs boson and then you have electrons, or mass
    Pila Mulligan: so, the waking state?
    Maxine Walden: I am uncertain how to fold your notion in to my sense of the dream, pila, because the dream state 'feels' very real when we are there, and everything seems to make sense in the dream. so the dream state feels 'real' when we are there...
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it has all the characteristics except mass :)
    Maxine Walden: seems to me the dream is tapping into a different state, or allowing us a portal from the unconscious to the conscious...
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I agree
    Pila Mulligan: maybe in dreams our waking assumptions define the boundaries of things -- we see a car in a dream and we assign it car characteristics, but you can pick it up if yuou want to, in a dream
    Maxine Walden: but you make me wonder whether there is a different 'mass' or gravity in the conscious vs unconscious...yes, there are no 'rules' that hold in the unconscious...so that would be closer to your notion of the dreamer lifting the car
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: my wondering also, Maxine
    Pila Mulligan: thanks to this Higgs boson
    Maxine Walden: ah...
    Maxine Walden: interesting possible intersection of the dream/dreamer and aspects of reality which the physicists show us
    Pila Mulligan: yep ... at least we non-scientists have the liberty of wandeing into such zones
    Maxine Walden: I have a couple of minutes left before I have to go...just wanted to mention it rather than go 'poof'
    Pila Mulligan: thanks for another interesting session, Maxine
    Maxine Walden: I have enjoyed it as well...we do discussions well around here
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pila Mulligan: Sunday is Dreamday at PaB :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ^v^
    stevenaia Michinaga: lots of time to practice
    stevenaia Michinaga: see you in two weeks MAxine
    Maxine Walden: lovely to linger...
    Maxine Walden: yes, two weeks, and thanks Pila for taking the chatlog next time
    Maxine Walden: OK, will go. bye all and thanks for a great discussion
    Pila Mulligan: my pleasure, Maxine -- have a safe and happy journey
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye maxine
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Maxine
    Wol Euler: bye maxine, take care
    Wol Euler: ah, too late
    Pila Mulligan: bye Steve (it seems you are up and away:)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye steve...
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods, see you this evening perhaps
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye stev
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Wol Euler: by steve
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Me too, bye everyone :)
    Pila Mulligan: bye SophiaSharon
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: uh
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye?
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night all,
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye Scath
    Pila Mulligan: bye Scathach
    Wol Euler: bye scath, sleep well
    Scathach Rhiadra: namaste
    Pila Mulligan: sweet dreams :)
    Wol Euler: that little "ting" is such a cheerful sound
    Pila Mulligan: Wol and Corvi, have you ever heard of Sai Baba?
    Wol Euler: nope, or perhaps "not yet"
    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sathya_Sai_Baba
    Wol Euler surfs
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: looks.
    Pila Mulligan: this is the part I'm thinking of: "Claims have been made by devotees that objects have appeared spontaneously ..."
    Pila Mulligan: quite a few people I know have been to his ashram in India, some frequnetly, and seen him materialize objects out of thin air
    Pila Mulligan: this wiki is full of facts debunking the idea, but these freinds (sensible people all) believe it
    Pila Mulligan: maybe he has masyered the Higgs boson :)
    Pila Mulligan: mastered*
    Wol Euler nods skeptically
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Wol Euler: what do you think, Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: oh, I have never seen it, so I cannot say
    Pila Mulligan: just givign credit to my freinds reports and playing with the Higgs boson idea :)
    Pila Mulligan: there are common reports of his trick in old inda
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I...think...that it's vanishingly unlikely.
    Pila Mulligan: not his, but people before him, long ago
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    Pila Mulligan: nice adjective :)
    Wol Euler: it wuold be highly reprehensible of him had he mastered (indeed seen) the Higgs Boson, and used it merely to trick his way into gullible young men's pants.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: there are much easier ways of doing magic.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, but suppose, as he says, he is using it to get people's attention for genuine psiritual teachings?
    Pila Mulligan: spiritual*
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I suspect if he is, he's using the usual means of making stuff appear
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: rather than something more esoteric.
    Pila Mulligan: yep, as I said, I have no opinio
    Pila Mulligan: but nice ot suppose ...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and looks for Wol..who has disappeareed.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: one wonders what method she will next use to appear.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: grins.
    Pila Mulligan: but here we are 100% electrons
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the thing is..we don't NEED magic, do we?
    Pila Mulligan: only for fun
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: exactly.
    Pila Mulligan: magic may simply be the uexpected
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmhmm
    Pila Mulligan: like weeds, simply theunwanted plants
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I suspect..that if a person uses that kind of magic...it's...to distract as much as to enlighten?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I dunno...
    Pila Mulligan: welcome back Wol -- nice materialixation :)
    Wol Euler: ty
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: andddddd Wol...appears!
    Wol Euler grins
    Pila Mulligan: desppite all the gossipy bad stuff, he has lot of follwers and does lots of good stuff --building hospitals, etc
    Pila Mulligan: I think he is sincere about his desire to enlighten, but also human
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nodsnods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I feel certain that he is doing good stuff.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and really teaching.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but that to me, doesn't erase my sceptism about magic religion.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that it is a way of making one person or group seem to have power I don't.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and that I need to follow them to acquire it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's my sceptism, anyway.
    Wol Euler: my gut feeling is that anyhting that can only be sold by "magic" is not worth buying
    Pila Mulligan: and a healthy skepticims it is, too
    Corvuscorva Nightfire sighs..I'm probably too sceptical for my own good, really.
    Pila Mulligan: however, I think it is good to be aware of this and toher examples of unexpected things -- some may be true ... I promise you rain is the happy ending to many hawaiian ceremonies, but people inevitably try to rationalize that when I tell tehem
    Pila Mulligan: why rationaile it -- it happens :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: smiles.
    Pila Mulligan: really it does
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Pila..because its you...a trusted source...I'm gonna buy that one.
    Pila Mulligan: thnaks :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: grins.
    Pila Mulligan: btw, Pema seems to like the idea of a rl PAB expereiment
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yes he did!!!!
    Wol Euler: mmm?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it was a great idea!
    Pila Mulligan: it should e interesting
    Pila Mulligan: be*
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh, Wol..you should read Pila's email..
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and Pema's reply
    Pila Mulligan: ah, Wol may not be on the list :)
    Pila Mulligan: that was the RL PaB list
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it was in the group we made special to talk about a rl PaB.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so that everyone else wouldn't get bombarded with process emails.
    Wol Euler: no, I'm not on that. Can I haz forwarding?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods..I'll do it now..hold on.
    Pila Mulligan: can it be accessed via google?
    Wol Euler: ty
    Wol Euler: probably not, if I'm not a group member
    Pila Mulligan: the idea, Wol, is to see how (if) the PaB approach would function in a real life setting
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sent
    Wol Euler: ty, reading
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think I'll clean these up and suggest an email out to the larger group.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: sometime..in the next week or so.
    Pila Mulligan: Corvi, you are the organizer par excellance
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thanks.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: good thing we don't have a time crunch though.
    Travieso Sella: cya folks
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Travieso.
    Wol Euler: bye travieso, take care
    Pila Mulligan: bye Trav
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I have to get "home" myself...I promised to meet someone there.
    Pila Mulligan: my apologies for not seeing Trav on the screen, didnt even know he was still here
    Pila Mulligan: bye Corvi
    Wol Euler: well, shall we wrap up then?
    Wol Euler: bye corvi, take care
    Pila Mulligan: may as well, Wol
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye, Pila...I'm glad I got to sit with you a while.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, me too
    Wol Euler: bye for now, pila, enjoy ... is this morning already?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Wol.
    Pila Mulligan: almost 11:30 -- yard work awaits :)
    Wol Euler: heh
    Wol Euler: have a good rest of Monday then :)
    Pila Mulligan: Sunday still :)
    Pila Mulligan: thanks just the same -- bye bye
    Wol Euler: oh! you are on "our" side of the dateline.
    Wol Euler: right
    Pila Mulligan: yep, a few hours to the West it is Monday, for Tarmel
    Wol Euler: damn, we have to get this world flattened out somehow :/
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Wol Euler: bye for now, work well.
    Pila Mulligan: thanks, aloha

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