2010.02.15 13:00 - Bulshytte (cushions and stories and love)

Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database.

 

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey aga,liza

Agatha Macbeth: Hi Yaku :)

Agatha Macbeth: Hi Liza

Liza Deischer: hi Yaku, Agatha

Agatha Macbeth: Good, I didn't sit on anyone

Liza Deischer: hi Cal

Liza Deischer: hi Mick

Agatha Macbeth: Here he is!

Agatha Macbeth: Heya Mick

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick

Mickorod Renard: Hiyaaaa

Calvino Rabeni: The Men In Black

Agatha Macbeth: And Cal too

Mickorod Renard: dont worry, i am here

Mickorod Renard: Hi Cal

Calvino Rabeni: Hiya Mick

Agatha Macbeth: Who's worried? :)

Mickorod Renard: I bet u thought u would have to be guardian

Yakuzza Lethecus: i am not black, it's my soul that shines through everything

Mickorod Renard: yeaaaa,,well said Yaku

Agatha Macbeth: For sure Yaku :)

Liza Deischer: ah, that's what I feel :-)

Mickorod Renard: so,,has everyone had a nice day?

Agatha Macbeth: No complaints.....yet

Mickorod Renard: he he

Mickorod Renard: I am on school hols

Agatha Macbeth: Lucky you

Mickorod Renard: although went in today to catch up

Mickorod Renard: much better without kids

Mickorod Renard: I have been exploring the method of not buying into stories

Liza Deischer: ?

Agatha Macbeth: Any particular stories?

Mickorod Renard: are you all familiar with that idea?

Calvino Rabeni: Yes

Liza Deischer: ah, sorry, didn't understand, do now

Mickorod Renard: well,,you know the sort where in life you are expected to get caught up in other peoples issues

Zon Quar: hello all

Mickorod Renard: Hi Zon

Agatha Macbeth: Oh, them

Agatha Macbeth: Hello Zon

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zon

Calvino Rabeni: Oh, I thought you meant your stories

Liza Deischer: hi Zon

Mickorod Renard: them too

Mickorod Renard: Hi Laurence

Liza Deischer: hi lawrence

Agatha Macbeth: Hello Mr Triceratops :)

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey lawrence

Mickorod Renard: are you new here Laurence?

Mickorod Renard: Lawrence

Calvino Rabeni: I will vouch for Lawrence

Mickorod Renard: ok thanks Cal

Lawrence Vyceratops: Hello, everyone :) I've attended several meetings so far.

Mickorod Renard: great,,thanks

Agatha Macbeth: (He doesn't look like a dinosaur)

Lawrence Vyceratops: But, if you look inside our skulls, you see something similar to a dinosaur. ;)

Mickorod Renard: appearances can be deceptive

Calvino Rabeni: Has, I think, a dragon peering out

Agatha Macbeth: Ooooh!

Lawrence Vyceratops: Our brains are very old :)

Calvino Rabeni: :) Dragon gets the "oooh!" of approval

Agatha Macbeth: Some of us more than others! ;-)

Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, we pretty much all have the same brain here. Only slightly different from that bird's.

Agatha Macbeth: Which bird? Me?

Lawrence Vyceratops: So, scientists say :)

Lawrence Vyceratops: haha the whistling one. :)

Agatha Macbeth: Oh

Calvino Rabeni: Indeed, and not designed to do anything other than hunt, eat, sleep, reproduce, etc. :)

Agatha Macbeth: Maybe it's a thrush

Lawrence Vyceratops: So, what are we hunting today? ;)

Agatha Macbeth: Good question!

Calvino Rabeni: Caught a dragon, so far.

Lawrence Vyceratops: Was that the intention? ;)

Calvino Rabeni: No just blind luck

Agatha Macbeth: There is no such thing as luck, young Jedi

Lawrence Vyceratops: Use the force, Luke! I love Star Wars.

Calvino Rabeni: Do, or do not. There is no try.

arabella Ella: Hiya

Agatha Macbeth: Don't we all? :)

Lawrence Vyceratops: Hiya, arabella

Zon Quar: hi ara ã‹¡

Agatha Macbeth: Hi Ara :)

Mickorod Renard: Hiya Ara

Liza Deischer: hi Ara

--BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: (Ah, the bespectacled beauty :))

Calvino Rabeni: The candidate topic as I recall was "stories" of a certain variety. And then it got competition from "what is this primitive brain thing?"

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara

Lawrence Vyceratops: What was being discussed of "stories?"

Agatha Macbeth: What stories do we mean Mick?

Bertram Jacobus: hello all ... :-)

Mickorod Renard: well,,I was wonderin if anyone else practices the not buying into method?

Liza Deischer: hi Bert

Lawrence Vyceratops: Hey, Bertram.

Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Berti :)

Mickorod Renard: Hi Bert

Zon Quar: bert

arabella Ella: Hiya Bertram

Liza Deischer: trying :-)

Mickorod Renard: I am becvoming mnuch better at it now

Lawrence Vyceratops: Not buying into method?

Agatha Macbeth: What, typing?

Lawrence Vyceratops: Hey, Zen.

arabella Ella: what method Mick?

Mickorod Renard: nooo

Agatha Macbeth: Hi Zen

Liza Deischer: hi Zen

Zon Quar: hi zen

Zen Arado: Hi all

Bertram Jacobus: hi zen :-9

arabella Ella: Hiya Zen

Mickorod Renard: the method of not buying into crap when its presented to you,,as in this is crap life come join

Mickorod Renard: Hi Zen

Lawrence Vyceratops: You mean, being skeptical?

Calvino Rabeni: Ah that kind of story

Mickorod Renard: :)

Mickorod Renard: yes

Agatha Macbeth: Still not with you Mick....

Mickorod Renard: it happens all the time

Mickorod Renard: ok,,

Agatha Macbeth: Oh, I see

arabella Ella: crap as in investments, changing providers or pyramid schemes?

Mickorod Renard: let me start again

Agatha Macbeth: You mean buulshit?

Agatha Macbeth: Bullshit even

Mickorod Renard: ok,,you get to work and all of a sudden you hear all sorts of rubbish and things to get worked up about

Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, an everyday thing...

Mickorod Renard: yes,,bull shytte sort of covers some

Agatha Macbeth: Uh huh

Mickorod Renard: yes

Mickorod Renard: but then,,often we get drawn into it

Mickorod Renard: but we have an option

Mickorod Renard: we can say to ourselves,,hold on,,this is bull shyyte

Lawrence Vyceratops: It's easy to get drawn in...

Calvino Rabeni: Well I have a fondness for stories

Zen Arado: any examoles?

Lawrence Vyceratops: Or we can be skeptical of it, perhaps?

Calvino Rabeni: I like to get drawn in

Agatha Macbeth: That's a good examole :)

Mickorod Renard: yes,,drawn in is ok if you can play with it

Calvino Rabeni: but I know the method you're talking about

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, for fun

Zen Arado: examples :)

Agatha Macbeth: :)

Bertram Jacobus: i like emoles, too !

Lawrence Vyceratops: So, you are saying, just to call it bullshit, before examining it?

Mickorod Renard: keeping your own story line is important

Agatha Macbeth: And garden moles ;-)

Lawrence Vyceratops: Guilty until proven innocent?

Agatha Macbeth: Who is?

Bertram Jacobus: hm. not sure

Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok, I'm not following the story part of this...

Agatha Macbeth: Give it time Laz....

Mickorod Renard: well,,I was thinking that there are options trather than blind panic

arabella Ella: yes how does the story come in to this?

Bertram Jacobus: laz mole

Agatha Macbeth: Him too

Mickorod Renard: I give up,,maybe Cal can describe it better

Agatha Macbeth: Elias Ash-mole?

Zen Arado: I am a mole and I live in a hole

Agatha Macbeth: On the dole

Calvino Rabeni: if you have the freedom to move in and out of the story, you can play with it if you like

Lawrence Vyceratops: We can take it slow, step by step...

Mickorod Renard: or we cud talk about dino's

Agatha Macbeth: Dino's what?

arabella Ella: or Limos

Calvino Rabeni: That can enliven people who seem to feel stuck in it

Mickorod Renard: saurus

Agatha Macbeth: Worcester saurus?

Calvino Rabeni: Slow is good

Lawrence Vyceratops: Wait.... I'm not caught up with the story part of this calling everything bullshit thingy...

Bertram Jacobus: zon is sleeping

Agatha Macbeth: You are?

Zen Arado: we sure love our stories

Agatha Macbeth: Are we speaking of a specific story Mick?

Bertram Jacobus: sometimes we hate them

Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, I'm not clear on the "story" thing.

Zen Arado: this is my story and you have to listen to it....

Zen Arado: it is so tragic......

Bertram Jacobus: or a joke

Mickorod Renard: any old story in life that we get drawn into,,and maybe later regret getting involved in

Zen Arado: we love the drama.....

Calvino Rabeni: Remember, all the world's a stage

Agatha Macbeth: You you're not speaking of a specific example?

Mickorod Renard: no

Calvino Rabeni: A specific example would be instructive

Agatha Macbeth: Ah

Bertram Jacobus: i prefere joy zen

Lawrence Vyceratops: You mean story as in, I got to work, there is drama, that line of drama, whether it be an issue with someone or some group, you mean getting drawn into that kind of "story?"

Zen Arado: or an examole

Agatha Macbeth: I prefer Joy Division

Calvino Rabeni: Law, I think that's kind of what Mick meant

Agatha Macbeth: Shut up about moles already! :)

Mickorod Renard: that sounds pretty good

Bertram Jacobus: i'll youtube it now agatha

Agatha Macbeth: What?

Zen Arado: :)

Mickorod Renard: the lawrence version

Agatha Macbeth: TE Lawrence?

Zen Arado: DH?

Mickorod Renard: of arabia

Lawrence Vyceratops: So, we are saying that when we get into a situation, there is a method whereby we assume that it is bullshit?

Agatha Macbeth: That's the one ;-)

Zen Arado: skepticism means you never really believe anything

Zen Arado: I think

Mickorod Renard: well,,we dont have to believe its bulshytte,,but we also dont need to think we have to become entangled in it

Agatha Macbeth: Kinda

Liza Deischer: you're turning it upside down Lawrence :-)

Agatha Macbeth: stands on her head

Lawrence Vyceratops: haha I'm just trying to see what is meant. :)

Bertram Jacobus: scepticism is only the contrary of credulousness

Calvino Rabeni: I think the method was more about the idea to not identify with being compelled to be a character in exactly the way proposed by the story

--BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: Shhhhhhhhhhhh!

Mickorod Renard: some sort of calm and seperate viewing of it is prefered I think

Mickorod Renard: shhhhhh

Agatha Macbeth: Shhhhhhhhhhhh! I said!

Zon Quar: waves....

Mickorod Renard: sh

Agatha Macbeth: sighs and rolls eyes

Lawrence Vyceratops: That bell.... it means something....

Lawrence Vyceratops: How far have we gotten on this?

Agatha Macbeth: Why does a psychic need a doorbell?

Mickorod Renard: dont get too involved in the bell Lawrence

Zen Arado: don't know

Mickorod Renard: its only a sound

Lawrence Vyceratops: just joking around ;)

Mickorod Renard: he he

Bertram Jacobus: pab practise

Lawrence Vyceratops: haha Yeah.

Agatha Macbeth: But if nobody hears it does it make a noise?

Zen Arado: no

Mickorod Renard: yes,,u can imagine the sound

Agatha Macbeth: Fair enough

Lawrence Vyceratops: If my speakers are on...

Agatha Macbeth: What if they're muted?

Zen Arado: no hearer = no sound

Mickorod Renard: mine are off,,but I still see the sound

Agatha Macbeth: You do?

Bertram Jacobus: i'm not sure about that zen

Agatha Macbeth: Must be at a funny wavelength

Mickorod Renard: yes,,it goes,,,BELLLLLLLLLLLLLL

Agatha Macbeth: No, that was Quazimodo

Lawrence Vyceratops: Right, the sound we hear is not the waves themselves, although the waves are there when no one is present to hear, there is no sound, subsequently.

Mickorod Renard: I have a hunch about that

Agatha Macbeth: What about the Doppler effect?

Zen Arado: it takereceiver and originator

Calvino Rabeni: Agatha, what about the doppler effect are you wondering about?

Lawrence Vyceratops: waves plus receiver = sound

Agatha Macbeth: Well, if you can't hear it and it's going away from you, can you still not hear it?

Calvino Rabeni: How about - waves + receiver = story ?

Agatha Macbeth: There is no spoon

Bertram Jacobus: bye liza

Agatha Macbeth: Bye Liza

Bertram Jacobus: have a good time

Mickorod Renard: bye liza

Liza Deischer: need to go

Lawrence Vyceratops: Are you leaving or stretching your legs? haha

Mickorod Renard: have fun

arabella Ella: bye Liza night!

Zen Arado: bye Liza

Agatha Macbeth: We'll translate the log into Dutch for her ;-)

Bertram Jacobus: we ?

Agatha Macbeth: (She still won't understand it)

Lawrence Vyceratops: Ouch!

Agatha Macbeth: Never touched ya!

Lawrence Vyceratops: haha

Agatha Macbeth: Look I'm over here

Zen Arado: doppler effect just means the pitch drops

arabella Ella: Do you speak dutch Agatha?

Agatha Macbeth: Tatty string

Agatha Macbeth: 'Fraid not

arabella Ella: ah

Agatha Macbeth: :)

Lawrence Vyceratops: So, the story thing...

Lawrence Vyceratops: Why are we calling it a story?

Agatha Macbeth: You mean the bullshit...

Agatha Macbeth: Shyte

Lawrence Vyceratops: Or, the buulshit.

Agatha Macbeth: Indeed

Calvino Rabeni: BS is an interpretation - the story is a mode of cognition

Lawrence Vyceratops: Go on...

Agatha Macbeth: Being Seeing?

Mickorod Renard: well,,it cud be important,,but to get drawn into it may not be the best option

Calvino Rabeni: I'd say sound = thought = story

Agatha Macbeth: Not necessarily....

Zen Arado: there is a kind of story in our society - kind of group consensus about things I think

Calvino Rabeni: Answer one, you will see the others

Lawrence Vyceratops: Right like if you show up to work and there is an office fire, it might be good to join in and help.

Calvino Rabeni: what is a thought?

Calvino Rabeni: A sound?

Agatha Macbeth: What is a thing?

Calvino Rabeni: Now a story is a conventional subset of these

Agatha Macbeth: Aha

Lawrence Vyceratops: Like, we can all see the cushions on the floor and we all agree that they are for sitting?

Calvino Rabeni: the story is what it is called, when someone else makes it up, and we are pretty clear it isn't true, and it appears to have characters and a plot

Bertram Jacobus: i agree

Calvino Rabeni: But all that is true of the sound also

Lawrence Vyceratops: Opinions and judgments.

Calvino Rabeni: just harder to see

Calvino Rabeni: If a tree falls in the forest, and makes a sound, then isn't it also a story?

Lawrence Vyceratops: You are saying that there is a distinct difference between us all seeing what the cushion is and our own personal tastes regarding things like style and comfort?

Agatha Macbeth: e = mc2

Zen Arado: a culturally constructed reality

Agatha Macbeth: 'Not a story coming from him but him coming from a story'

Lawrence Vyceratops: You mean, "society?"

Calvino Rabeni: The perceptions seem to appear already wrapped in story like particulars that are personal

Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes, are saying that we look at things in two different ways?

Mickorod Renard: maybe

Lawrence Vyceratops: One real and one imaginative?

Agatha Macbeth: No, more than two!

Calvino Rabeni: I think usually just one way

Zen Arado: maybe there is no 'real'

Mickorod Renard: I guess its easier for us to remember information in story form

Calvino Rabeni: If a tree falls in the forest, it isn't just any tree and it isn't heard by just any person

Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, for instance, we would all generally agree that the cushions we are sitting on are real, right?

Calvino Rabeni: it comes in complete particulars

Zen Arado: no they aren't

--BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh! (again)

Zen Arado: what is real regarding cushions?

Calvino Rabeni: If you address them, they are real

Agatha Macbeth: If i throw one at you, you know it's real

Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, we had better agree that we are sitting on cushions, otherwise, we are in for a difficult discussion...

Agatha Macbeth: Ok, already, I agree

Zen Arado: 'cushions' is just a concept

Calvino Rabeni: We can agree on that, but without knowing just what they are

Agatha Macbeth: Back to the story.....

Calvino Rabeni: And if you want to say what they are, then that's a story

Zen Arado: would it be a cushion to an alien from soace?

Lawrence Vyceratops: Well, I hope that we can all agree that the cushions are real, at least as real as anything else...

Calvino Rabeni: I would hope so

Zen Arado: I don't sorry

Agatha Macbeth: What galaxy is Soace in?

Lawrence Vyceratops: Zen, then, why did you choose to sit on one?

Calvino Rabeni: Why play favorites with you criteria for what is real, Zen?

arabella Ella: but life is all an illusion

Zen Arado: conventiopn

arabella Ella: isnt it?

Agatha Macbeth: Second Life doubly so

Calvino Rabeni: Aren't illusions real, Ara?

Bertram Jacobus: how do you know ara ?

arabella Ella: i read it today

Calvino Rabeni: :)

arabella Ella: and i believe all i read

arabella Ella: :)

Bertram Jacobus: and you believe it ?

Agatha Macbeth: Good answer Ara :)

arabella Ella: of course

Bertram Jacobus: oh

Zen Arado: but if you look for a foundation it is only an agreed consensus - not 'real' is the point

Lawrence Vyceratops: I'm not sure that we have discussed illusion...

Calvino Rabeni: Well that's a story Ara :)

Agatha Macbeth: Do you believe stories tho?

arabella Ella: it makes a lot of sense there is a song that says so too and i believe all i hear in songs like Let it Be

arabella Ella: of course i believe stories

Agatha Macbeth: When I find myself in times of trouble....

arabella Ella: la la la

Lawrence Vyceratops: Ok, then, can we at least agree that we are all sitting on cushions, whether real or illusion?

arabella Ella: on pixels perhaps?

Calvino Rabeni: Mick thinks its good to have a skill to "drop" stories at times

Agatha Macbeth: What is it with the damn cushions Lawrence?

Bertram Jacobus: i can agree law

Lawrence Vyceratops: haha

Calvino Rabeni: Yes, *can*

arabella Ella: go on anyway Lawrence was only pulling your leg

Zen Arado: what is a cushion?

Lawrence Vyceratops: Cushions are easy for us to identify without feelings and emotions.

Mickorod Renard: I think we are in a story of our own,,and we can be distracted by others stories,,and they may not be that good

Agatha Macbeth: He didn't touch my leg! :)

arabella Ella: ah not the cushion i cuddle up to at night though :)

Lawrence Vyceratops: It's not so easy in other areas of life, which causes us many problems that lead to violence and war.

Bertram Jacobus: you don't ask that seriously no zen i hope ? ;-)

Agatha Macbeth: Tell us more Ara ;-)

arabella Ella: its private Agatha sorry

Agatha Macbeth: Awwwwwww

Agatha Macbeth: sulks

Calvino Rabeni: It's a time honored technique to try to disconnect from all the stories that are emotionally compelling

arabella Ella sends Ara a Hug

arabella Ella: oh ... sends Agatha a hug ... he he

Agatha Macbeth: Why are you hugging yourself?

Agatha Macbeth: Oh thank you!

arabella Ella: just imagining cushions

Zen Arado: a cushion against inflation?

Agatha Macbeth: But they aren't real!

Agatha Macbeth: Are they?

Calvino Rabeni: And it's interesting that Lawrence brings quite a moral dimension into what could be a matter of just seeing

Lawrence Vyceratops: The cushions on the screen are not real, per se...

Bertram Jacobus: cushions are real . tz pf

Agatha Macbeth: Imagine the sound of one cushion clapping

Mickorod Renard: but some stories are trivial,,or if not are not so relevent as they at first appear

Zen Arado: :)

Lawrence Vyceratops: But, yes, if we were actually here...

Zen Arado: cushions the blow

Agatha Macbeth: groans

arabella Ella listens to Lawrence with more 'seriousness'' now

Mickorod Renard: are they blow up?

Calvino Rabeni: Good, Lawrence, because most of our live is lived *as if*

Agatha Macbeth: Dolls?

arabella Ella: baloons

Agatha Macbeth: Her names's Daisy

Lawrence Vyceratops: So, to me, I am interpreting this "story" as opinions that we have about things, perhaps even opinions about opinions....

Agatha Macbeth: Perhaps

Mickorod Renard: maybe

Agatha Macbeth: Perhaps not

Agatha Macbeth: Who knows?

Mickorod Renard: or maybe they are stories that we dont need to even notice

Calvino Rabeni: Not opinions, something deeper, a perspective with personal relevance

Lawrence Vyceratops: I took the cushion as an example because we can generally agree that it is a cushion and does not need mystical qualities added to it to try and understand it. It's just a cushion.

Agatha Macbeth: It is?

Zen Arado: 'do not seek truth, just do not cherish opinions'

arabella Ella: but there are trivial stories and serious stories which draw on our emotions or our responsibilities

Lawrence Vyceratops: Yes.

Agatha Macbeth: Just cushions

Agatha Macbeth: Or stories

Lawrence Vyceratops: Someone mentioned going to work and there are things to get drawn into... these stories...

Calvino Rabeni: Whether the story is trivial or serious, is an aspect of another story

arabella Ella: fiction perhaps too

Agatha Macbeth: Don't mention Harry Potter

arabella Ella: some people tend to add fiction to their RL stories

Mickorod Renard: maybe it can be an observation,,as all stories can have a message

Lawrence Vyceratops: The story could be some personal drama between coworkers, for instance, or the office could be on fire. One is based on psychological, one is based on reality.

Zen Arado: we seem to need stories

Calvino Rabeni: My story is like - hey, this is true, but the other guy's story at work was "just" a story

arabella Ella: i must go to i ching workshop before the bell rings

arabella Ella: bye all thanks for the chat

Agatha Macbeth: Do you have fires in the office every day Lawrence?

Zen Arado: they cushion reality for us

Lawrence Vyceratops: Bye, arabella.

Mickorod Renard: yes,,me too,,hope you dont mind

Calvino Rabeni: Anyone tried Improv Theater training?

Zen Arado: bye Ara

Agatha Macbeth: C ya Ara

Mickorod Renard: not me

Calvino Rabeni: You get to play with stories a lot

Agatha Macbeth: hugs Arabella

Lawrence Vyceratops: Oh, no, thankfully! :)

Calvino Rabeni: very instructive as a reality practice

Mickorod Renard: sounds interesting Cal,,can u send me a note on it?

Zen Arado: describe it Cal

Calvino Rabeni: lots to learn for any person who has contemplative interests

Mickorod Renard: cos i have to go now,,bye all thankyou

Lawrence Vyceratops: I have a stricter schedule today. I have to go as well....

Zen Arado: bye Mick

Agatha Macbeth: Ta ta for now Mick

Calvino Rabeni: I need to go - but it is a good continuation of the story inquiry

Mickorod Renard: tat ta

Zen Arado: bye Lawrence

Lawrence Vyceratops: It was nice talking with you all.

Agatha Macbeth: Yep, me too

Calvino Rabeni: bye all !

Zen Arado: bye Aga

Calvino Rabeni: Likewise Lawrence

Lawrence Vyceratops: Bye, everyone!

Agatha Macbeth: Thanks for the stoies, and the cushions

Agatha Macbeth: strories

Bertram Jacobus: bye ...

Agatha Macbeth: bugger, bye all

Zen Arado: give up Aga :)

--BELL--

Bertram Jacobus: strange meeting this time ! ... ;-)

Zen Arado: yes - a bit silly

Zen Arado: I was anyway

Bertram Jacobus: yes. gaga, or ... what was the name of this art form which didn't want to make too much sense ?

Zen Arado: Da da

Bertram Jacobus: yes ! :-))

Zen Arado: but I was a bit serious some of it

Bertram Jacobus: yes

Zen Arado: Lawrence was trying to find a foundational assumption

Zen Arado: about cushions

Bertram Jacobus: yes

Zen Arado: and assuming something is true as a start is dangerous

Bertram Jacobus: yes. better be open

Bertram Jacobus: neutral

Zen Arado: if the starting assumption is wrong the whole structure of logic is also wrong

Bertram Jacobus: you are not interested in the i ging workshop ?

Zen Arado: where is it?

Bertram Jacobus: we only had to ask one of the attendants, ara for example

Bertram Jacobus: pila gives it

Zen Arado: maybe Kira?

Bertram Jacobus: may be - an assumption !? ;-)

Zen Arado: :)

Zen Arado: someone was IM ing me through the discussion too

Bertram Jacobus: happens ...

Zen Arado: awkward when they do that

Bertram Jacobus: heyy wol ! ... :-))

Wol Euler: hello zen, bert

Zen Arado: Hi Wol

Bertram Jacobus: happy to see you ! :-)

Zen Arado: they've all gone but us

Wol Euler nods.

Wol Euler: too late today.

Zen Arado: I ching?

Bertram Jacobus: there is pilas - yes - i ging workshop now

Zen Arado: discussion was a bit silly tonight

Wol Euler: good :)

Bertram Jacobus: very fast

Zen Arado: but fun :)

Bertram Jacobus: hello solivagus

Zen Arado: Hi Solivagus

Bertram Jacobus: sometimes i prefere less input ...

Zen Arado: yes me too

Zen Arado: I can't keep up

Zen Arado: miss a lot

Wol Euler: I usually open the chat history window and read from that

Bertram Jacobus: good method

Bertram Jacobus: so simple

Wol Euler: :)

Bertram Jacobus: i have it open, too, but not big enough - will change that next time

Bertram Jacobus: but even that may not be enough sometimes

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Bertram Jacobus: on sessions like the last one may be for example

Wol Euler: well, I'm getting curious to read it now.

Bertram Jacobus: hehe :-)

Bertram Jacobus: curiosity ... :-)

Zen Arado: about cushions :)

Bertram Jacobus: and stories

Bertram Jacobus: and bullshit

Wol Euler: ah :)

Bertram Jacobus: sry. was only a quote

Zen Arado: or stories :)

Bertram Jacobus: wol - few days ago you took a photo here without the photo takin gesture - is that right ? and if yes, how can one do that, please ? :-)

Wol Euler: you can disable it in the Advanced menu

--BELL--

Wol Euler: ctrl-alt-d to get it active

Wol Euler: then it's fifth or sixth in the menu

Zen Arado: life is all just stories I am thiking

Wol Euler: true,zen

Bertram Jacobus: quiet snapshots to disk ? :-)

Wol Euler: yep

Zen Arado: dreams and illusions

Bertram Jacobus: ty ! :-)

Wol Euler: yw

Bertram Jacobus: i don't know why some people deny reality

Wol Euler: 42

Zen Arado: you think there is an objective reality out there Bert?

Bertram Jacobus: that seems quite popular these times ...

Bertram Jacobus: i don't know

Zen Arado: if we could only see it?

Bertram Jacobus: then we only saw it

Wol Euler: meta-snap

Zen Arado: I don't

Bertram Jacobus: you don't what please ?

Zen Arado: only something that always changes

Bertram Jacobus: ah " deny reality ? :-)

Zen Arado: don't believe in a solid uunchanging reality

Bertram Jacobus: ah.

Bertram Jacobus: but thats a hughe difference

Bertram Jacobus: reality and "a solid unchnaging reality" (!)

Zen Arado: but that is what ppl think it is I think ?

Zen Arado: Plato thought that

Bertram Jacobus: some. may be. some in other ways i guess

Zen Arado: he though where we are now is only an imperfect version of the 'real' reality

Zen Arado: thought

Bertram Jacobus: i try to get more simple

Zen Arado: it is a very common view

Bertram Jacobus: many views are simple as i seem to experience it

Bertram Jacobus: many people live without such thoughts

Bertram Jacobus: and it works (!) ;-)

Wol Euler: sure

Wol Euler: for certain people in certain lives

Bertram Jacobus: many

Wol Euler: if you take the world population, the vast majority don't have time or resources for mindfulness

Zen Arado: we live with illusions

Bertram Jacobus: even feel pressed to say : most

Wol Euler: they re too busy not being murdered or starving to death

Bertram Jacobus: yes

Zen Arado: ah yes

Bertram Jacobus: yes :-(

Zen Arado: but they suffer too

Zen Arado: I am reading a book about Montaignes

Bertram Jacobus: but to get free from suffering, i would agree : good to see, that all is constantly changing . and not to cling on things

Zen Arado: French philosopher

Bertram Jacobus: but nevertheless i personally call it "reality"

Bertram Jacobus: why not ?

Wol Euler: indeed, a very clever chappie.

Zen Arado: he believed it was best to live in the present moment

Zen Arado: and he got it from Stoic philosophers

Zen Arado: from about 400 BC

Zen Arado: they taught the same things

Bertram Jacobus: what is this "chappie", please ? :-)

Wol Euler: Kerl

Bertram Jacobus: ah. thx :-)

Wol Euler: leicht schmeichelnd, verniedlichend

Zen Arado: Montaigne?

Wol Euler: yes,I was being facetious.

Wol Euler: I discovered him recently through Alain de Botton

Zen Arado: http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Live-Mon...6272926&sr=8-1

Zen Arado: he is fascinatin

Zen Arado: very practical man

Bertram Jacobus: fascinari is latin and means being or getting bound (!) ...

--BELL--

Zen Arado: wrote about everyday things not lofty abstract philosophy

Wol Euler: if you look for Alain de Botton on youtube, there is a series of episodes of a TV show he made, which was basically just reading chapters of his book "The consolations of philosophy"

Zen Arado: I have that book

Zen Arado: forgot it talked about Montaigne

Bertram Jacobus: i don't find any consolation in philosophy ...

Zen Arado: have to reread it :)

Zen Arado: you have to look hard :)

Wol Euler: well, people who find consolation in meditation probably don't need to look for it there :)

Bertram Jacobus: i find it in religion, spirituality, meditation, karma yoga ...

Zen Arado: I just got headaches

Zen Arado: and no answers

Zen Arado: just moe questions

Bertram Jacobus: and in some everyday factors like nice talks, music, medicine against headache for example ... ;-)

Zen Arado: zen is much better

Wol Euler: ... but hopefully fresher and better ones.

Wol Euler: (qiuestions)

Zen Arado: it tells you not to search for answers

Bertram Jacobus: and not to forget : love (!)

Zen Arado: you get a lot of suffering from love too

Bertram Jacobus: i prefere answers. but people are different

Zen Arado: romantic love anyway

Bertram Jacobus: i did not mean eros or philia zen, i meant agape

Zen Arado: answers are only provisionally true....

Bertram Jacobus: or better in our language : all including, not conditioned love

Zen Arado: because of underlying impermanence

Zen Arado: ok Bert

Bertram Jacobus: and from that comes no suffering, as i understand it

Wol Euler: in theory, it should do :)

Bertram Jacobus: that is a quality of the highets level i can imagine

Wol Euler: and it seems to work...

Bertram Jacobus: words fail

Zen Arado: sacrifice though

Bertram Jacobus: yes. it works

Zen Arado: selflessness

Bertram Jacobus: i wanted to ask whether it is still difficult in your every day life after the retreat wol ?

Wol Euler: it's getting slowly better,thank you.

Wol Euler: talking about it was a great help.

Bertram Jacobus: wonderful

Zen Arado: great

Wol Euler: funny how changes in perspective can work both ways :)

Bertram Jacobus: and it's curious to me : i feel a lot of love in the last weeks - for you here for example - never said such things before

Bertram Jacobus: but it happens to me again and agin

Wol Euler smiles warmly.

Wol Euler: Love is good.

Bertram Jacobus: every few minutes i feel that

Bertram Jacobus: i'm thankful and in love to feel such nice people as you and here ...

Wol Euler: the mistake we make, the reason people are afraid of it, is that we assume that it must have consequences.

Zen Arado: we fear the end of it

Wol Euler: whereas surely the thing to do is simply to let it be, and to bask in its being.

Zen Arado: it is hard when relationships break up

Wol Euler: yes,surely.

Bertram Jacobus: but sometimes expressing it is also very helpful. i expereince that in "both ways" - to me and from me

Zen Arado: what is the best way to cope with the end of a relationship?

Wol Euler: cry it out?

Wol Euler: usually works for me.

Zen Arado: men can't do that

Wol Euler: O.O

Wol Euler: who told you that?

Zen Arado: :)

Wol Euler: what are these things called "men" that you speak of?

Zen Arado: it's the attachment and releasing it that is the problem

Bertram Jacobus: and what you said about "masks" wol - or what was topic here the last days - i think - and radically teached in the spiritual teachings is, that we don´t have to do that. we must not. but also not hurt others with unnecessairily seemingly "open words" - sometimes silence is better. but one can feel free with that all i think ...

Zen Arado: attachment

--BELL--

Zen Arado: RL is so complicated sometimes

Bertram Jacobus: my way of coping with problems is looking at them, contemplate about it, letting time work also, going as good ways as possible ... nad then, in the end all gets past ...

Zen Arado: ultimately time is the answer I guess....

Zen Arado: and having patience

Bertram Jacobus: yes (?) but meditation is also a great help to me and can even be for everyone i think ...

Zen Arado: and endurance...

Bertram Jacobus: patience is also great *agree*

Zen Arado: yes me too

Wol Euler nods

Zen Arado: acceptance so important

Zen Arado: but so difficult sometimes.....

Bertram Jacobus: so we know already a lot. the task now : to realize all that

Wol Euler: :)

Zen Arado: exactly

Zen Arado: so many old habit patterns I have

Bertram Jacobus: that's really a matter of time

Bertram Jacobus: and practise

Zen Arado: like a well worn groove I just slide into

Wol Euler nods to zen.

Zen Arado: so easiy....

Wol Euler: like getting back into a warm bed...

Bertram Jacobus: automatisms ...

Zen Arado: good idea :)

Bertram Jacobus: lol

Bertram Jacobus: but we develop slightly new automatisms too i think, better ones

Zen Arado: hopefully

Bertram Jacobus: i'm sure

Zen Arado: yes we do....

Bertram Jacobus: :-)

Zen Arado: anyway I better go do my meditation and go to bed

Zen Arado: good nite Wol, Bert

Bertram Jacobus: okay zen. appreciated this part of the meeting very much ! :o)

Wol Euler: goodnight zen, take care. sleep well.

Bertram Jacobus: ty ! :-)

Zen Arado: me too :)