2010.02.19 07:00 - Initiating Play

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

I was joined for a few minutes by Yakuzza. Yakuzza went afk, then Fael arrived, followed closely by Zen. We discussed, sometimes in 'rapid fire' mode: acting in the moment, talking to strangers, shyness, initiative, Roles, inauthenticity, expectations, eye hunger, glowyness, holographic universe, wearing purple, mundane tasks, rebellion, creativity....   

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya! :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: just stepping bye for a few minutes
Yakuzza Lethecus: how are you today ?
Eliza Madrigal: So funny that when you are not drinking something people get nervous... like a communal comfort habit :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, i even drink too much coffee in real life :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm very well..... looking through prices and trying to decide whether to attend SF or NS retreat
Yakuzza Lethecus: i would choose the SF retreat since NS is just on that farm even with great landscape
Yakuzza Lethecus: since i dont have the opportunity to travel that often i would combine those things
Eliza Madrigal nods... exactly... really 'away'
Eliza Madrigal: in NS... which appeals to me
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think i will just attend the stuttgart/munich retreat this year
Yakuzza Lethecus: even when the states are obviously tempting :)
Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful that Pab will be arriving so close to you!
Yakuzza Lethecus: that´s not really close from my definition :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Maybe not down the street
Yakuzza Lethecus: but compared to the states, hell yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: heheh

I ask about "Smiling at Fear", but Yakuzza needs to leave before we can get into discussion... 

Eliza Madrigal: What's on your mind lately, yakuzza..
Eliza Madrigal: Saw you are reading "Smiling at Fear"
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i bought the book after eos recommended it
Yakuzza Lethecus: but on my mind is mainly the issue of dropping during the day and how to bring different experiences which are similar to dropping into relationship with my definition of dropping
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
Yakuzza Lethecus: even things that aren´t the same directly, like trying to play an instrument but verbally thinking that i suck :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, bypassing the critic at the gate
Yakuzza Lethecus: so if the issue is the thinking and ,,not just doing"
Yakuzza Lethecus: that is basicly something i often ,,not do"
Yakuzza Lethecus: the ,,just doing"
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i got to leave for half an hour
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now :) Thanks for stopping by
Eliza Madrigal goes back to her calculations :)

Fael arrives, and gives our session its topic ...

Fael Illyar meeps happily!
Eliza Madrigal: Fael!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi there :) Meep
Eliza Madrigal: dramatic and glowy....
Eliza Madrigal: How is everything going with you?
Fael Illyar: I'm good :)
Fael Illyar: How are you?
--BELL--
Fael Illyar: Just did something unusual. Went and talked to someone I saw standing around :)
Eliza Madrigal: Fairly well, thanks. Yakuzza isn't here, btw
Eliza Madrigal: Oh?
Fael Illyar: someone who looked interesting :)
Eliza Madrigal: And were they?
Fael Illyar: Yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: How so?
Fael Illyar: I'm not sure how to explain that :)
Eliza Madrigal: It is funny to think that SL can have the same hesitations about talking to people 'without a context' that FirstLife does...
Fael Illyar: SL does have that for me :)
Eliza Madrigal: SL is its own context
Zen Arado: Hi all:)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen!
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Fael Illyar: I saw her, wanted to speak and spent a moment "agonizing" about "but what will I say?" and then felt there's something just wrong about that thought :)
Fael Illyar: ended up going there and saying "hello" :)

Eliza Madrigal: Zen: Fael Illyar: Just did something unusual. Went and talked to someone I saw standing around :)
Zen Arado: around here?
Eliza Madrigal: I like that idea... come to think of it, something I've never done in SL...
Fael Illyar: no, at Hikari
Zen Arado: ah
Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes I strike up conversations when out and about, but I guess in a setting like Hikari there is a comfort, too
Zen Arado: you ever go to Hikari Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: in SL I suppose I'm more reticent
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes Zen. So beautiful :)
Fael Illyar: I'm less reticent in SL, definitely :)
Zen Arado: I've never seen you there
Eliza Madrigal: I used to go for sittings while Moon would play his flute....
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: :) It has been a while
Zen Arado: I go on Saturdays sometimes
Zen Arado: other nights I have RL activities
Eliza Madrigal: I love the idea of just 'trying and seeing' if someone would like to be talked to....
Zen Arado: I feel a bit shy going to new groups
Eliza Madrigal: When I lived in a townhouse about ten years ago, I shared a mailbox area with a lady who would not smile back for the life of her
Fael Illyar: play at speaking? :)
Zen Arado: nice if someone talks to you
Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Eliza Madrigal: Yes!
Eliza Madrigal: As shy as I can be, I usually override it to speak to someone new (in a group)
Eliza Madrigal: it is like there is a hierarchy
Fael Illyar: hierarchy?
Zen Arado: though I can talk to ppl I don't know quite easily
Eliza Madrigal: yes.. like I might entertain the shyness unless its in the way of politeness....
Eliza Madrigal: so I have a scale it seems. Hah
Eliza Madrigal: "importance scale"

What is shyness? If innate/ingrained, then how can we override it for the sake of our roles?

Zen Arado: shyness is a kind of fear isn't it?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, parts of it are
Fael Illyar: a scale of socially acceptable?
Zen Arado: fear of what others might think
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, for me a scale of my own comfort... if that makes sense...
Eliza Madrigal: what I risk feeling silly or being rejected for
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: I had a job where I had to speak to pplI never met before and that helped me to get out of shyness
Eliza Madrigal: Ahh, yes that makes sense
Zen Arado: now I talk too much :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fael Illyar: I've long been completely fine with people I haven't met speaking to me but... somehow speaking to people I haven't met on my own initiative has been left
Eliza Madrigal: that makes sense too, Fael
Eliza Madrigal: It seems a nice leap to take... exciting really
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: actively widening one's scope
Zen Arado: we so fear rejection
Fael Illyar: I worked as a receptionist for a few summers at our family holiday village... that made fast work of being shy about people coming to speak to me :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Zen Arado: it is just ego again isn't it?
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, so maybe shyness is contextual too... or is it about hiding behind the role of 'worker', etc
Zen Arado: protecting our precious idea of 'self'
--BELL--
Zen Arado: ah yes Eliza - having a role helps
Eliza Madrigal: yes, it can be that... sometimes people have good reasons to be shy.... some of it is conditioning... being taught not to draw attention to oneself, etc. Mixed signals, random punishments...
Fael Illyar: in a way, the role of receptionist gives an "authority" to speak to people on behalf of something else.
Zen Arado: my culture taught us to be reticent I think
Eliza Madrigal: yes, like tapping into the larger sense of purpose in a way
Eliza Madrigal: how so Zen?
Zen Arado: well...you were looked down upon for being too 'pushy'
Zen Arado: modesty was praised
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, nods
Zen Arado: times have changed though
Eliza Madrigal: there's modesty and then false modesty...
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal has actually done a lot of work with shyness.... was paralyzingly shy at times in life. Some of it genetic actually
Zen Arado: but as Fael was saying...you can hide behind a role
Eliza Madrigal: so I pay a lot of attention when we begin to talk about making these little leaps, and confidence

Fael makes a great clarification...

Fael Illyar: somehow the words "hide behind" put together with role feel off to me...
Eliza Madrigal: yes, hm...
Zen Arado: did you hear of Sartre's waiter?
Eliza Madrigal: there is a sense of both hiding AND stepping out
Eliza Madrigal: using the role
Fael Illyar: it's more like that, taking the role, you give yourself permission to let go of your 'self'
Eliza Madrigal: Yes! Great clarification!
Fael Illyar: as is necessary to act with the role

Reading this over I'm reminded of a film I happend upon again very recently "The Remains of the Day". Anthony Hopkins plays a servant immersed in and absorbed by his role...

Zen Arado: well... Sartre criticized a waiter for being 'inauthentic'
Eliza Madrigal: Go on, Zen?
Zen Arado: of creating a kind of false persona and immersing himself in it
Eliza Madrigal: If he wasn't still a waiter when he left the job, don't see how one could make that judgement
Zen Arado: and you can find this when ppl who deal with public are just playing a role and don't treat you as a person
Eliza Madrigal: yes, sometimes.... Funny. Again it goes both ways
Fael Illyar: ah, I'd call that taking a false role.
Eliza Madrigal: He is able to be effective perhaps by donning his waiter personae
Zen Arado: yes Fael....but roles are necessarily false to some extent?
Eliza Madrigal: We do this with friends don't we... and family... We restrict some aspects and let go others... tailoring ourselves for others
Zen Arado: but the role of mother and father ?
Eliza Madrigal: both freeing and confining
Fael Illyar: the role is definitely false if it doesn't leave room for adjusting to the person you're interacting with.
Zen Arado: if there is no 'me' it doesn't really matter maybe?
Eliza Madrigal: yes maybe it can more fluid than we tend to think
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, Fael. yes I agree... flexibility and room....
Zen Arado: maybe a danger when we play a role to please others too much
Fael Illyar: a non-false role would mean letting go your inhibitions so you can fulfill the task
Eliza Madrigal: yes or we don't notice that the role has become locked
Fael Illyar: a false role would mean donning inhibitions to fulfill the task
Eliza Madrigal: hmm
Eliza Madrigal: maybe we can 'employ' the ways we override in one area.. to others...
Eliza Madrigal: like your talking to a stranger today :)
Eliza Madrigal: just for fun

:) Zen wants to know who we think we are... 

Zen Arado: we are always changing anyway
Zen Arado: do you know who you are really?
Fael Illyar: nope :)
Zen Arado: if you start to act differently you become different
Fael Illyar: I can only feel it :)
Eliza Madrigal: Right... Who was I at 5? Who am I at 50?
Eliza Madrigal: before motherhood?
Zen Arado: so there is no real 'you'
Eliza Madrigal: before pab? hehe
Zen Arado: you are playing a pab guardian role Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: play as playing
Eliza Madrigal: I love this focus on giving permission to oneself, to let go....
Zen Arado: I am playing a sill twit role
Eliza Madrigal: A who?
Fael Illyar giggles.
Zen Arado: silly twit
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Eliza Madrigal: thought it was an Irish expression....
--BELL--
Zen Arado: there is freedom in not having to play a role
Zen Arado: in not having to live up to ppl's expectations
Zen Arado: you think?
Eliza Madrigal nods.. freedom is letting yourself off the hook, along with everyone else

:) Hearing Pema somehow as I read this last line... something to the effect of seeing there is no hook or you either.... 

Zen Arado: I love that poem'I shall wear purple....
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Zen Arado: you know it?
Eliza Madrigal: Welcome back, ya :)
Zen Arado: Hi Yaku :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, no I don't think so Zen
Yakuzza Lethecus: so play as being is play in freedom ?
Fael Illyar: not having to live up to people's expectations does not mean not living up to those though :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Seeing that we're free and letting that play out
Yakuzza Lethecus: at least so some extend i believe play as being is for me to ,,not play a role" :)
Eliza Madrigal: or that there's no we to 'get' free...
Zen Arado: can I post poem?
Eliza Madrigal nods
Yakuzza Lethecus: fire :)
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, please do Zen

Zen Arado: When I am an old woman, I shall wear purple with a red hat that doesn't go, and doesn't suit me. And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves and satin candles, and say we've no money for butter. I shall sit down on the pavement when I am tired and gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells and run my stick along the public railings and make up for the sobriety of my youth. I shall go out in my slippers in the rain and pick the flowers in other people's gardens and learn to spit. You can wear terrible shirts and grow more fat and eat three pounds of sausages at a go or only bread and pickles for a week and hoard pens and pencils and beer nuts and things in boxes. But now we must have clothes that keep us dry and pay our rent and not swear in the street and set a good example for the children. We must have friends to dinner and read the papers. But maybe I ought to practice a little now? So people who know me are not too shocked and surprised When suddenly I am old
Zen Arado: , and start to wear purple.

Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
Eliza Madrigal: that's really cute
Fael Illyar: Yep :)
Zen Arado: so old age frees us from our 'proper behaviour' role
Eliza Madrigal: I think I let that 'old age' rebelliousness seep in now....
Zen Arado: ha ha you are stil too young Eliza
Fael Illyar: I've been somewhat 'old age' rebellious from my teenage years ;)
Zen Arado: but \i am ok ;)
Eliza Madrigal: hehhee
Zen Arado: but you can start to practice now as the poem says :)
Fael Illyar: it's still going on :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) So some of what we're talking about then is freedom toward spontenaeity
Fael Illyar: only getting stronger :)
Zen Arado: yes I think so
Eliza Madrigal: ack, spelling .. spontaneity
Fael Illyar: doing what feels best, not what others tell you you need to do.

I begin to think that what spontaneity implies is distancelessness ...

Eliza Madrigal: yes, and right then...
Zen Arado: giving up our ideas of how we 'should' be
Eliza Madrigal: talking to the person in 'that instant'
Zen Arado: perhaps shyness is partly thing about ourselves too much
Zen Arado: thinking

It isn't that I'm an 'authority' on shyness, but have perhaps grappled with it more than many. There came a kind of 'breakthrough' in my life in this area last year, in learning to see the many components of things we take for granted as being a stuck-together package ... 

Eliza Madrigal: I have described it as an exaggerated sense of 'everyone is looking at me'
Zen Arado: and not being concerned enough about the needs and requirements of others?
Eliza Madrigal: Well, this is why I say it has components for most people....
Eliza Madrigal: I was hm, 'born' that way... as was my middle daughter
Zen Arado: our meditation practice should help free us of these self preoccupations I think
Eliza Madrigal: she has overridden much of it in various ways, has been given many tools....
Eliza Madrigal: yes, meditation has helped me with some of it... the fear part that was added on
Zen Arado: ah yes ...maybe some of it is our nature too
Zen Arado: some are naturally extrovert with booming voices etc
Eliza Madrigal: yes... it is one of those things that Stim might say we need to not 'reject' outright but see
Fael Illyar: perhaps you can sense what people are thinking...
Zen Arado: sensitivity
Eliza Madrigal nods.. hm.. or be in touch in a different way
Eliza Madrigal: I spent a LOT of time alone as a child, so shyness helped me I think, to enjoy my own company
Eliza Madrigal: I didn't need constant validation
Eliza Madrigal: I'd just make up someone to play with... hehe
Fael Illyar smiles.
Zen Arado: so a nurture component too
Eliza Madrigal: yes its all funny.... lots of wonderfulness in there too
Zen Arado: I think some are more naturally sociable too ?
Eliza Madrigal: Many people end up in SL because they are working through social frustrations of one sort or another
Zen Arado: my sister is very quiet and retiring

Fael points out that audience matters, which is something that musicians and teachers often relate... that one is drawn from by those in attendance or attention...

Fael Illyar: I'm finding I'm quite sociable with certain people :)
Eliza Madrigal: that around them you just feel more open, Fael?
Fael Illyar: yes
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: a need for sociable contact might help overcome shyness though?
Eliza Madrigal: my sister is bold .... fiesty, I would say :)
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: Did you read the PaB chat about 'eye hunger' .. thought that was/is fascinating
Zen Arado: no...missed that
Zen Arado: or maybe I did read it
Eliza Madrigal: it was just a little part... but guardians were discussing how being here, and connecting in deeper than one would expect, ways ... then out in 'the world', there comes a desire to connect via eye contact more...
Zen Arado: I was reading about a woman who did a solitary retreat in her home for years
Eliza Madrigal: I definitely experience that
Zen Arado: wonder if I could do that.....

Retreat mindedness and how SL involvement factors...

Eliza Madrigal: How do you think that would help you?
Zen Arado: don't know...just want to do something deeper spiritually
Fael Illyar: I'm kind of on a retreat myself :)
Fael Illyar: only occasionally going outside.
Zen Arado: I know a guy has same disabiity as me....hardly goes out in the Winter
Fael Illyar: although... I'm not sure how using SL makes a difference for that :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Sometimes it can be healthy... a time of evaluating and shaking off the 'have to's and 'should do's of life
Eliza Madrigal: Fael, definitely new ground!
Zen Arado: kind of learning how not to depend on external things for happiness
Eliza Madrigal: I spent years volunteering at the kids' schools, much less working in them, and over the last few years pulled back from doing that...
Eliza Madrigal: spending my 'free' time reading, studying, here, etc...
Eliza Madrigal: meditating and delving...
Zen Arado: Yes
Zen Arado: and I have plenty of time for that if I want to
Eliza Madrigal: The other night at an event there were other parents who gave me a little of a cold shoulder at first...
Zen Arado: ah you didn't live up to their expectations
Eliza Madrigal: it was so strange, but my 'heart energy' had pulled out of that....
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: When I felt, at this event, that I didn't have to be there... I began to want to put in time again
Zen Arado: I was talking to a friend on Skype earlier and she says you shouldn't do anytthing unless you enjoy it
Eliza Madrigal: that's the motive I had in the beginning... labor of love
Fael Illyar: yes, I agree. Unless you enjoy, no doing.
Zen Arado: I was teling her about going to my meditation group and only 2 ppl there
Zen Arado: but you need some commitment to keep things going?
Eliza Madrigal: :)) @ No doing
Eliza Madrigal: Sure... but sometimes we aren't effective if we're 'just' doing from a place of obligation
Zen Arado: have to think about this
Eliza Madrigal: who wants to be parented by someone who treats you as an obligation, rather than "ah so happy you're here and I get to take care of you"
Zen Arado: I used to do so much in my church when I was a Christian
Zen Arado: true Eliza
Zen Arado: but sometimes you don't 'feel' like doing things
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, you know I don't enjoy every task I do... but if I enjoy the overall picture and feel invested in that.... there is enough energy for those mundane tasks that go along with it
Zen Arado: and it is still good to do them?
Zen Arado: ah yes
Zen Arado: the overall aim
Eliza Madrigal: like the holographic universe we were talking about the other day :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm attentive to this little task, but it reverberates throughout the whole....
Zen Arado: it is freedom from 'duty' that is the theme of that poem isn't it?
Eliza Madrigal: and visa versa... the whole is involved in my little task
Zen Arado: yes true
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: I don't know, Zen :)) I like the poet's play-fullness though
Zen Arado: yes - freedom from what other ppl think of you too
Zen Arado: anyway i better go
Zen Arado: thanks for talking to me :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Zen, thanks for being here
Zen Arado: it was interesting as always
Eliza Madrigal: We've been all over the map today!
Fael Illyar: Have fun Zen :)
Zen Arado: bye Fael and Eliza
Eliza Madrigal waves
Fael Illyar waves happily.
Fael Illyar: Just us now then :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Like oldish time
Eliza Madrigal: *times
Fael Illyar: yes, happened a few times in the past :)

I like talking about Creativity with Fael. Artists of all sorts dance with Potential...

Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking that in a way, it seems silly to 'talk' about spontaneity... try to capture that in some way
Eliza Madrigal: but I like your sharing your moment
Fael Illyar smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: That's inspiring :)
Fael Illyar: these just happen sometimes :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: Creativity comes from there, too...
Fael Illyar: yep :)
Eliza Madrigal: So many books trying to capture that... "here's how you DO it"
Fael Illyar: Yes... very difficult to explain in words :)
Eliza Madrigal: maybe it is a 'wrong end of the stick thing'... thinking one can create ... rather than not being an obstacle
Fael Illyar: Yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fael Illyar: visualize yourself as something that helps the process. Not as something that hinders it and that's what you'll be.
Eliza Madrigal: :)) I like that
Fael Illyar: sometimes it could mean going as far from the process as you can though :P
Fael Illyar: but if that's what it takes to be something that helps the process... :)
Eliza Madrigal: or visualize that the process sustains itself and you in it...
Eliza Madrigal: and that it doesn't matter if you know where you are in that....
Fael Illyar: everything is one large process anyway :)
Eliza Madrigal: inflated way of saying "Rest" I suppose
Eliza Madrigal nods, smiles
Eliza Madrigal: long sigh :) I feel peaceful. Thanks for today, Fael... arriving in all your glow and sparkle :)
Eliza Madrigal: Time to check on my son, home ill today... See you soon
Fael Illyar: See you soon Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal waves