2010.04.07 13:00 - On Creativity

The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

Darren Islar: hey "Fed"
Calvino Rabeni: Derren hello!
Darren Islar: hi :-)
Darren Islar: it is you and me again
Darren Islar: hi Vajra
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni looks around at an unexpectedly vacant meeting place
Darren Islar: well at least you found me, there was nobody when I came in
Darren Islar: looked at the clock
Darren Islar: hi Vajra
Calvino Rabeni: Hello
Darren Islar: Fonz should be here als CoG
Darren Islar: but lately he had a lot of problems to get on
Darren Islar: log on
Darren Islar: is this the first time you are here Vajra?
Vajra Raymaker: No, Darren. I have been here in the past a couple of times
Darren Islar: ok, welcome back :-)
Vajra Raymaker: But feel free to explain to me about how it works, any theme etc. " )
Vajra Raymaker: : )
Vajra Raymaker: I can't be on long though... must get in to work
Vajra Raymaker: ty
Darren Islar: well, the most important thing is that we are recording
Darren Islar: the session
Darren Islar: and place it on the website
Darren Islar: is that a problem to you?
Vajra Raymaker: no... not worried about it
Darren Islar: ok thanks
Darren Islar: hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: hi guys
Vajra Raymaker: What I don't understand though, is the purpose for the recordings
Vajra Raymaker: And who would own the copyright
Darren Islar: and looking at your name, I should say: lean back and just enjoy :-)
Vajra Raymaker: :)
Darren Islar: hopefully we will have a good discussion tonight
Darren Islar: hi Ara
arabella Ella: Hiya!
Mickorod Renard: hiyas
Vajra Raymaker: Hi Arabella
Mickorod Renard: hi zon
Zon Quar: hello enlighentend ones
Darren Islar: hi Zon
arabella Ella: Hiya Zon
Vajra Raymaker: greetings
arabella Ella: Hi Zon (chat lag?)
Zon Quar: lag ?
Darren Islar: so there seems to be no CoG today, but maybe want to share something
Darren Islar: myabe somebody wants to sare something
Zon Quar: didnt u get my hello
arabella Ella: well I must admit I am here but also watching the football match on TV
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, hello enlightened one!
arabella Ella: Man Utd vs Bayern Munich
Darren Islar: well, I did
Zon Quar: ah good
Zon Quar: my text is coming late
Mickorod Renard: Darren,,what did u ?
arabella Ella: yes Zon and mine too
Darren Islar: see your hello
Mickorod Renard: ohh
Mickorod Renard: ok
Zon Quar: CoG ?
Darren Islar: yes it is Fonzes nite
Darren Islar: but he doesn't seem to be here
Darren Islar: and as Darren I'm afraid I can't claim the log
Zon Quar: u mean the Kira meeting ?
arabella Ella: OH YES Fefonz is not here and it is Wed
arabella Ella: Fef is Guardian on Wednesdays
Darren Islar: no this meeting
Mickorod Renard: i will claim log if there is a problem
Darren Islar: thans Cal
Mickorod Renard: ohh,,great Cal
Darren Islar has a wonderful excuse not to claim the log :-)
arabella Ella: Anyone got any topics to discuss?
arabella Ella: to share?
arabella Ella: to gripe?
Zon Quar: creativity ?
--BELL--
arabella Ella: to reflect or ponder?
Calvino Rabeni: I like words, as a time machine
Zon Quar: what is it ? creativity
Mickorod Renard: hi wol
arabella Ella: hey Zon you read my mind?
Darren Islar: hi Wol
Calvino Rabeni: If you study the origin of words, and their change in meaning, it is like looking back in a cultural time machine
Mickorod Renard: was that read or read Ara?
Wol Euler: hello everyone, sorry I'm late
Vajra Raymaker: two of my favorite topics, creativity and language
arabella Ella: 'you are reading my mind'
arabella Ella: Hiya Wol
Wol Euler giggles at Calvino and Darren's tags.
Darren Islar: everyone was :-)
Zon Quar: so does anyone want to give a first shot
Zon Quar: what is crativity
Darren Islar suddenly sees Cal's tag and smiles too
Vajra Raymaker: riding the wave? Being yourself when yourself is healthy and feeling good?
Calvino Rabeni: and how can words help creativity...
Darren Islar: difficult question Zon
arabella Ella: well to begin with one can see creativity either as a skill or as an attribute
Zon Quar: when is a painting creative art and when just a outlet of energy
arabella Ella: one can learn methods to come up with new ideas
Wol Euler: perhaps it's a matter of intention.
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps when the energy is creative energy
arabella Ella: and everyone has the potential to improve their creativity
Mickorod Renard: can one be over creative?
Darren Islar: I should say creativity is the outcome of different 'parts' in ourselves that work together
arabella Ella: besides, you can have artistic creativity or creativity in organisations or in innovations
Darren Islar: using a certain kind of concentration that can make that happen
Calvino Rabeni: That is an important aspect of it Darren
Darren Islar: that concentration makes sure you're not overcreative or not creative enough
Calvino Rabeni: The attention, and the parts working together
arabella Ella: altho Darren creative ideas can also occur when our brain is in the incubation phase and for example when on vacation and all relaxed
Zon Quar: so war tacticts is also creativity
Calvino Rabeni: A creative urge ? Some underlying motivation or desire? These seem important too.
Darren Islar: sometimes we feel that as 'flow'
Darren Islar: being in the 'flow'
Darren Islar: maybe it depends on what you call being creative
Calvino Rabeni: Creativity and flow may come together, but don't seem like the same thing
Vajra Raymaker: I think that people are creative with no effort when left alone and in good environments ideal for a human being, it's niche
Darren Islar: you can be creative by actually make something
Vajra Raymaker: its*
Calvino Rabeni: Creativity has a sense of bringing new things into existence
Darren Islar: but you can also be creative by having a thought
Darren Islar: by doing and action
Calvino Rabeni: But that creates a "new" knowledge
Zon Quar: yes i think newness is a key
Darren Islar: by making a joke at just the right time
Calvino Rabeni: evein if it is a thought not expressed physically
Vajra Raymaker: oh, Darren! That is such a good example
Wol Euler nods.
Zon Quar: Creativity is a mental process involving the discovery of new ideas or concepts, or new associations of the existing ideas or concepts, fueled by the process of either conscious or unconscious insight.
Zon Quar: from Wiki
Zon Quar: newness is there
Wol Euler: hmmmm
Darren Islar: wellI think every situation creates new things
Zon Quar: and mental process
Darren Islar: every situation is new
Wol Euler: that sounds like something that happens, rather than something one does.
Vajra Raymaker: have to go; sorry, bye all
Darren Islar: bye Vajra
Calvino Rabeni: Bye!
Darren Islar: good point Wol
Mickorod Renard: bye vejra
Zon Quar: and it says there must be an idea
Wol Euler: bye vajra, take care
Zon Quar: a new idea
Zon Quar: a bit too shallow definition
Calvino Rabeni: Well, suppose ideas get "stale" - then it might be a use of creativity to "freshen them up" even if they are not new
Mickorod Renard: would a psychopath be described as having an over creative mind?
Calvino Rabeni: Then they have new potentialities and power
Wol Euler: good question, mick.
Zon Quar: a new way to murder
Wol Euler: I fear that the answer could well be "yes"
Zon Quar: hm
arabella Ella: well definitions of creativity often bring in both originality and positive value
Calvino Rabeni: No, my psychopath friends complain that they have a one-track mind, unless they feel some inspiration :)
arabella Ella: and positive value would eliminate psychopaths
Zon Quar: can destructivness be creative
arabella Ella: so it all depends on your definition ... and there are plenty
Darren Islar: to me creativity can be both positive as negative
Calvino Rabeni: Removal - destruction - makes room for the new
Mickorod Renard: I used to create some art,,and at one stage it included setting fire to it,,the remains were the art
Darren Islar: creativity describes the process to me
Darren Islar: nice point Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Isn't that what "dropping" is - destruction or deconstruction, allowing possibility?
Zon Quar: i think creativity is life process itself in away
Darren Islar: so there is always something to drop before something new appears
Calvino Rabeni: Creativity is "easier" after dropping?
arabella Ella: depends Calvino - what about creative ways of torturing a person or a fly or a cat ... i would eliminate anything destructive from the concept of creativity
Calvino Rabeni: The space has been cleared
Wol Euler: emotionally yes, but on what basis?
Darren Islar: by dropping you 'create' openess
Calvino Rabeni: Leaving values aside, it's neccessary for forms to disappear
Wol Euler: basis for eliminating, I mean.
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: eliminate? that has a psychopath ring to it
arabella Ella: :)
arabella Ella: my definition of creativity includes originality, surprise and positive value (@Wol)
Zon Quar: i see life is creative..the way it organises itself into new forms, species and cultures; so crativity is not limited to individuals
Wol Euler: indeed, ara, and which part of htat excludes cruelty? :)
Mickorod Renard: chaos theory?
Calvino Rabeni: @ara, that would be a good definition of "information" according to some sources
Zon Quar: he way cosmos arises from chaos
Mickorod Renard: yes
arabella Ella: @Cal ... why should information include originality and surprise?
Darren Islar: I guess because it make information work ?
Calvino Rabeni: It is something the definers are attached to - the idea that if you already have knowledge, then a message that restates something is not new "information" to you
arabella Ella: @ Wol ... IMHO positive value excludes cruelty to other creatures
Mickorod Renard: maybe thats the key,,by dropping we invite the natural way of creativity from non control
Calvino Rabeni: So it has to be new / unknown / presumably unexpected
Calvino Rabeni: to qualify as information
Calvino Rabeni: Although actually I don't subscribe to that definition, but it is popular
arabella Ella: it is new to me as a definition of information
Darren Islar: I agree Cal
Eliza Madrigal: Hi All.... brb
Zon Quar: making new forms appear ?
arabella Ella: information could simply be a train or bus schedule
Zon Quar: or helping
Mickorod Renard: Hi Eliza
Darren Islar: because it makes information to be a creative process always
Calvino Rabeni: Creativity seems to do that - make new forms appear
Zon Quar: and that might require sestruction too
Mickorod Renard: a form of growth?
Zon Quar: to destroy old house
Zon Quar: to buid a new one
Calvino Rabeni: But the process of using creativity - would have to include its opposite, getting rid of things, I would say
Calvino Rabeni: Right zon
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe I shouldn't say "right" but "agree"?
Darren Islar is pondering about a 'form' of growth
Mickorod Renard: its interesting that we like new things and new experiences,,yet, in a work place we often fight change
Wol Euler: hello eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Wol :)
Zon Quar: so as a whole it is renewal
arabella Ella: Hiya Eliza
Darren Islar: ah your back, he eliza
Zon Quar: hi eliza ã‹¡
Wol Euler: we like "new" but we don't much like "change" :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hiya Arabella :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Darren, and Zon, and Cal and Mick
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Darren Islar: we don't like dropping either
Calvino Rabeni: Well "change" is the word used to describe the new that we dislike :)
Darren Islar: not always at least
Darren Islar: or the new we fear
Calvino Rabeni: Have you ever "dropped" something, then regretted it?
Darren Islar: not knowing if we re going to like it or not
Mickorod Renard: maybe a girlfriend
Darren Islar: ha! @Dal
Darren Islar: Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Touche Mick
Zon Quar: i think we have built in us the need to be creative, make new forms
Zon Quar: only if it comes from outside
Zon Quar: as a pressure
Zon Quar: we dont like it
Darren Islar: we need to be able to adapt
Eliza Madrigal: make and take new forms perhaps ;-)
Mickorod Renard: I guess the power to adapt is what creates a strong spiecies?
Calvino Rabeni: Individuals have different tolerance for and need for novelty
Calvino Rabeni: Bacteria are extremely adaptive
Zon Quar: yes, there e always forerunners and laggards
Darren Islar: yes and the powere to adapt is maybe the basis of our creativity
Calvino Rabeni: We have "creative" friends and ones who value stability
Zon Quar: as buddha said all chnages all the time, so make some art with it
arabella Ella: Well Michael Kirton had distinguised between Adaptors and Innovators
Darren Islar: I guess both are needed
Darren Islar: but everyone has a certain amount of creativity in my opinion
Zon Quar: nods
Mickorod Renard: can u say more Ara?
Calvino Rabeni: Creativity can be destabilizing and thus the ability to "ground" can be an element of being able to handle the destructive aspects of creativity
Eliza Madrigal: there may be creative cycles also, less instrinsic to personality than to circumstances/context
Calvino Rabeni: @eliza - there are creative spirits for groups
Darren Islar: right Cal
arabella Ella: some people are innovators (the ones who invent and who come up with good ideas and get them implemented), others adapt (with time) to change
Eliza Madrigal: @ Cal, maybe the needs of the group grow them? :)
Mickorod Renard: thanks
Calvino Rabeni: Everyone is an innovator, broadly - it isn't the job of a few geniuses
Zon Quar: i think in Maslows hierarchy of needs the top is self expression which is quite near to creativity to me
arabella Ella: creative spirits for groups?
Calvino Rabeni: @Eliza, yes I agree!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: That is good to observe :)
arabella Ella: 'Self Actualization' Zon
Zon Quar: yes
Mickorod Renard: presumably, a creative society is most creative when it feels secure and supported,,and able to drop responsibilities etc?
Darren Islar: to my opinion creativiy doesn't start at the upper level of Maslows hierarchy
Calvino Rabeni: The maslow pyramid is misleading - creativity is present / needed / used at every level
Darren Islar: people can be very creative in order to survive
Mickorod Renard: true
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: But it doesn't get "credit"
arabella Ella: yes a lot of creativity occured as a result of the need for survival during WW2
Darren Islar: but you look swell Zon :-)
Zon Quar: ty ã‹¡
Mickorod Renard: much/most creativity seems to appear during wars
Darren Islar: or hunger
Zon Quar: sry , im called, bye all
Darren Islar: becoming creative in finding the next meal
Calvino Rabeni: Much technology is first created by the military
Eliza Madrigal nods to Zon... a free person may be one able to spontaneously draw out what is needed in the moment/context as they go... seems expression, in a sense
arabella Ella: well Defence Departments with huge budgets often finance research which leads to creativity and innovation - one example being the WWW
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Zon
Wol Euler: bye zon, take care
Eliza Madrigal nods to Ara
arabella Ella: bye Zon
Darren Islar: bye Zon
Mickorod Renard: yes,,support of money
Mickorod Renard: bye zon
Mickorod Renard: supply and demand is present in creativity too
Darren Islar: I think it depends on the working of the mind when somebody gets most creative
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Darren Islar: a lot of creativity is there due to pressure
Eliza Madrigal: Some of the most amazing cooks had nothing to work with in the beginning
Darren Islar: any situation I guess that makes us drop ideas and thoughts
Darren Islar: old ideas and thoughts
Eliza Madrigal: or do without something we thought we needed for a while, I imagine
Eliza Madrigal: bracketing :)
Mickorod Renard: peripheral distractions
Calvino Rabeni: Is there creativity not contingent on pressure or need? Suppose one had a perfect environment with all the lower needs met - I guess maslow would say creativity would then be used for self-actualization
Calvino Rabeni: What if you already felt self-actualized?
Calvino Rabeni: Then achieve a perfect stasis/
Calvino Rabeni: ?
arabella Ella: well inventors think up new stuff for which they may not be a need at first
Eliza Madrigal: Well, indeed there are many who have achieved more than they ever hoped, and the satisfaction of continuing to innovate still drives them
Calvino Rabeni: OR evolve to a new "level"
Mickorod Renard: then distruction would follow,,as a cycle
Eliza Madrigal: to be generous, is a need
arabella Ella: and some new things create new demands ... like SL and virtual stuff
Darren Islar: I think being in the moment is the most creative state in the end
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: our past is a cycle,,always
Darren Islar: always dropping, every moment again
Eliza Madrigal: lovely, Darren.. agree... continuity
Eliza Madrigal: like shedding 'drag' somehow
Calvino Rabeni: Not sure - can "being in the moment" be complacent? It could unless it also includes the re-creation
Darren Islar is looking up complacent
Eliza Madrigal: "nature abhores a vacuum" ?
Calvino Rabeni: And what would the "urge" look like?
Calvino Rabeni: Complacent - idea that nothing needs to change
Calvino Rabeni: What would a creative urge look like at an enlightened level?
Eliza Madrigal: joy?
Calvino Rabeni: Or would there be none?
Mickorod Renard: a rebirth
Darren Islar: good question :-)
Wol Euler bows and slips quietly away. Goodnight all, take care.
Mickorod Renard: nite wol
Eliza Madrigal: Night Wol :)
Darren Islar: of coure there will be (I think)
Calvino Rabeni: :) WOL
arabella Ella: nite Wol take care!
Darren Islar: nite Wol
Darren Islar: (a bit late0
Mickorod Renard: like spring after winter
Eliza Madrigal: thinks of joyful overflow and gestures of celebration... pretty creative
Eliza Madrigal: but maybe that's 'relief' of something
Darren Islar: relief doesn't wounds like enlightenment :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes celebration seems creativity without being driven by need
Mickorod Renard: ok,,i have to go home
Darren Islar: *sounds
Eliza Madrigal: I'd imagine enlightenment to not have that sense of having met a 'need'... but all always having been perfect?
Mickorod Renard: thanks 4 the chat
Darren Islar: bye Mick
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Mick, good to see you
Calvino Rabeni: BYe
Mickorod Renard: byeeeeeeeee xxx
Eliza Madrigal: (Btw, does someone have the log today?)
arabella Ella: nite Mick
arabella Ella: Calvino claimed the log as Fef is not here
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, thanks Cal
Darren Islar: is enlightenment making you perfect?
Eliza Madrigal: no because you've never not been...
Darren Islar: eh.... we are at the end of the hour, this is a new question I guess
arabella Ella: i must go too ... nite all!
Eliza Madrigal: Nite Ara :)
Darren Islar: bye Ara
Eliza Madrigal: Actually, me too... wasn't intended to linger :) as often happens
Darren Islar: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks guys :) Bye for now
Darren Islar: bye Eliza
Darren Islar: well Cal, it is you and me again
Darren Islar: :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Sure thing, Kid
Darren Islar: :-)
Darren Islar: it feels like I sat down here, something happened and now I'm wondering what happened
Calvino Rabeni: They are off to do whatever it is they do for a living, working out their aliases and alibi's
Darren Islar: like the discussion has been there and hasn't been there
Calvino Rabeni: True
Darren Islar: it is a weird feeling
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: Like life
Darren Islar: I suppose so
Darren Islar: I'm afraid it is the only one I've got
Calvino Rabeni: It is emphatic I grant you that
Darren Islar: :-)
Darren Islar: it is a stupid hat, but I like the way it moves
Darren Islar: was that a yes? :-)
Calvino Rabeni: What happens if you say / yes
Darren Islar: yes
Calvino Rabeni: was that the gesture with the / ?
Darren Islar: yes, I understan, but I do't seem to have a gesture like that
Calvino Rabeni: I see, they are different
Darren Islar: no, that doesn't help :-)
Darren Islar: how was that?
Calvino Rabeni: repeat please
Darren Islar: I feel stupid!!
Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, I see what you mean
Darren Islar: strange that the gesture Yes is not standard
Calvino Rabeni: Odd indeed,it seems fundamental
Darren Islar: oh and buy the way, you look stupid too when you laugh :-))))
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I tried it and what you say is the truth
Darren Islar: :-)
Darren Islar: yes it is fundamental
Calvino Rabeni: Do you read much in English, normally, or not prefer to do so?
Darren Islar: only if I have too
Darren Islar: I'm a slow reader
Darren Islar: so Dutch is more comfortable to me
Calvino Rabeni: Do translators help
Darren Islar: not with a book
Darren Islar: and not in general, you get the weirdest translations
Darren Islar: the sencentes in Dutch are ordered differently
Calvino Rabeni: There is a dutch wikipedia?
Darren Islar: but what a translator normally does is translating every word and put them togheter
Darren Islar: yes there is
Calvino Rabeni: With good coverage?
Darren Islar: yes, pretty much though, but I need the english version too
--BELL--
Darren Islar: but there small articles
Darren Islar: the only problem is when a lot of words are used that are only common to the subject
Qt Core: Hi Calvino, Darren
Darren Islar: but translators do help sometimes, for instance when I was talking to chinese guy which english was very poor
Calvino Rabeni: What's new, Qt?
Darren Islar: that's fun, because you come up with the weirdest signs, and you have no idea what they are all about
Darren Islar: like that somehow
Darren Islar: hi QT
Qt Core: nothing good, cal, i'm a little ill
Calvino Rabeni: Sorry
Darren Islar: a virus of some kind
Qt Core: it happens
Qt Core: we are getting an extra round of flu around here
Darren Islar: ah, normal flu
Qt Core: (i wonder why i didn' use the translator this morning, Darren
Darren Islar: ah, didn't think of that either
Darren Islar: we had a bunch of russions coming in
Darren Islar: I think there were 5?
Qt Core: already forgot, but maybe
Darren Islar: oh, just remembered, as Darren I don't have a translator
Darren Islar: did they stay long?
Qt Core: some half an hour
Darren Islar: I didn't get the second part of the log so I missed the last part
Darren Islar: hmmm, well pretty long
Qt Core: i don't have it as i don't like to have nearby chat logged
Darren Islar: well, I guess it is not a real problem
Darren Islar: my feeling is that they just liked to have a look around
Darren Islar: but werent really interested in PaB
Qt Core: we just spoke a little about prigramming at large, nothing big or profound
Darren Islar: *weren't
Darren Islar: ah, okay
Darren Islar: I do have a lot of gestures, but no yes
Darren Islar: accept the one I got from you
Darren Islar: no no either
Darren Islar: tosome people maybe even more important :-)
Qt Core: i don't use AO nor gestires, but i plan to (you know, until next 31 February)
Darren Islar: what is important about 31 of February
Qt Core: as it will not come, untill you have a lenient calendar
Darren Islar: :)
Darren Islar: you got me there
Darren Islar: Cal wanted to see my hat move when I said yes
Darren Islar: then we laughed and looked stupid
Darren Islar: as I already do I guess
Qt Core: well, with hats like that one don't really have to move to seem at least silly ;-)
Darren Islar: right :-)
Darren Islar: I like Cal's hat, but I don't seem to get near it
Darren Islar: I'm afraid this is the only hat I have
--BELL--
Darren Islar: hahahah
Darren Islar: well, it's better then mine
Darren Islar: but that is about all you can say about it
Calvino Rabeni: That is one for the records - Cabinet Meeting, Ministry of Silly Hats
Qt Core: the good the bad and the ugly, each one pick his role ;-)
Darren Islar: :-)
Darren Islar: well, my head is starting to get drowsy, so I better go to sleep
Darren Islar: see you guys
Qt Core: bye, sleep well
Calvino Rabeni: Good reason yes - see you later :)
Calvino Rabeni: And I am expecting a phone call quite soon
Qt Core: i think i'll go to the author of this hat to tell him it was a success ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is highly functional
Qt Core: bye Cal, have fun
Calvino Rabeni: You too, QT get well