2010.04.09 07:00 - Looking at Laziness

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, who was joined by Pema, Gaya, Sharon, Zen, Love, Yakuzza, and Darren. We began with a little question from Gaya, sparked by a little comment from Pema. There are many gems in this very practical session, and in particular Yakuzza's wondering on laziness as inappreciation. Hmmm... 

Eliza Madrigal: :::looks around:::
Eliza Madrigal: Hi there Pema :))
Pema Pera: hehe, behind a pillar
Eliza Madrigal: sneaky
Pema Pera: sleepy
Eliza Madrigal: :) Its quite early for you in California
Pema Pera: just got up, 7 am here in San Francisco
Pema Pera: but very convenient to be in SLT
Pema Pera: for once no problems with computing what time it is
Pema Pera: hi Gaya!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :))
Eliza Madrigal imagines Pema to have less problem computing time than most of us ;-)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza and Pema :)

:) Pema unwittingly begins a topic...

Pema Pera: well, but he is lazy too . . . .
Pema Pera: like most of us
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel wonders what 'lazy' means ...
Pema Pera: Good to see you again Gaya
Pema Pera: and hi Sharon!, and Darren!
Eliza Madrigal: You know, that's a good question... I see it come up from time to time in the logs... "What is lazy"
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon and Darren :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Darren and Sharon :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone :)
Darren Islar: hi all
Pema Pera: lazy can be many things, I s'pose
Pema Pera: all depending on context . . . .
Darren Islar: even when you're busy
Eliza Madrigal: everything to do with context... yes
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Darren Islar: busy at one thing, lazy at another :-)
Eliza Madrigal: hehe, yes
Pema Pera: but often a refusal to face up to something, masqueraded as "just lazy"
Pema Pera: and yes, Darren, fun isn't it!
Darren Islar: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: We often 'feel' lazy when we aren't, too... when life forces us to slow down...
Eliza Madrigal: or we are coping/changing/working at other levels
Darren Islar: mmhm, it is hard to work out what laziness exactly is
Eliza Madrigal: and we look at our ideas of how things 'should' have gone ... many angles :)

Sensitivity to signals...

Darren Islar: or going by the definition of Pema, it is more difficult to find out when laziness occurs
Pema Pera: yes, some "lazy" signals are very natural, and we should follow them; others are obstructions, and better to ignore -- life is complicated!
Eliza Madrigal: Is it?! :)))))
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, i like here how you stated that Pema, it's true too
Darren Islar: and where is that 'should'-feeling coming from
Darren Islar: ouch
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yakuzza :D
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Yakuzza
Pema Pera: often we are too lazy to look clearly which type of laziness just came up, haha
Yakuzza Lethecus: morning everyone
Pema Pera: hi Yaku!
Darren Islar: hi Yaku
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yaku :)
Darren Islar: :-) @ Pema
Pema Pera: and I think same with "should", Darren, some of the should feelings are obstacles, but some are a kind of natural wisdom of our body and mind
Darren Islar: (toe hurts, for Yaku standing on it :-))
Eliza Madrigal: thinking... it seems helpful to look at it as a moment-by-moment thing... the pull toward the 'easier' way... which sometimes is avoidance...
Yakuzza Lethecus: i did that on intention :) *looks mean at darren*
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes there's that Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: and to nurture something which asks that

What we avoid, why we avoid it. A very personal puzzle ...

Gaya Ethaniel: I think laziness [perhaps fear] about looking into "what types of laziness it is" is a tough one.
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: and a funny one too
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Pema Pera: when works needs to be done, the work can be hard work, but looking at how/when to do is no hard work at all -- yet we avoid that one most, and feel "lazy" doing so
Pema Pera: we humans are funny . . .
Darren Islar: if it is laziness as Eliza already said :-)
Eliza Madrigal: I always wonder why I will do some things that take more time/energy, and leave little annoyances alone... walk around them for long periods of time
Eliza Madrigal: yes, we're quite funny!
Gaya Ethaniel: That applies to how the ordinary mind works and it has always baffled me ... :)
Eliza Madrigal: hehhe
--BELL--
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: that might be the healthiest attitude toward it, Gaya "the poor thing needs help"
Darren Islar: Hi Zen :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Gaya Ethaniel: It doesn't bother me much anymore but it's such a curious situation :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Zen
Gaya Ethaniel: lol the poor thing yeah ...
Pema Pera: hi Zen!
Zen Arado: Hello Gaya, Darren,Yaku,Sharon, Eloza
Darren Islar: well at least you get more 'soft' inside, can open up things
Zen Arado: Pema!
Gaya Ethaniel: Well the poor thing is doing its best :)
Pema Pera: yes, smiling about it is sometimes better, certainly better than trying to fight or manipulate or suppress it.
Eliza Madrigal: Indeed :)
Darren Islar: it can also be an excuse :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: It's kind of sweet, don't you agree?
Pema Pera: us, poor souls :)
Darren Islar almost start to pity himself :-)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Pema Pera: yes, Darren, and that all depends on the follow-up then
Pema Pera: (about excuse)
Darren Islar: right
Eliza Madrigal considers acceptance... how difficult that can be when one feels so aware of limitations...

Zen's cat is a curious creature, too... 

SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles at Zen, your cat is in the pond ^.^
Pema Pera: =^+^=
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Darren Islar: hmmmm funny, I should say limitations makes us look at ourselves with more compassion
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, haha.. yes she looks more cozy on the cushion
Pema Pera: :)
Zen Arado: she doesn't like water
Pema Pera: she's supposed to look *very* thin after having swum in the pond
Eliza Madrigal: Few cats seem to :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Ive been feeling profoundly lazy, but I know where it comes from, and can accept it more, for that
Zen Arado: I feel tired :)
Zen Arado: what is the difference?
Eliza Madrigal: a kind observation, Sharon
SophiaSharon Larnia: its a bit of both for me atm, but they're not necessarily linked
Gaya Ethaniel: Well, feeling tired can be many things too ... like laziness.
Pema Pera: :)
Zen Arado: it;s a good excuse for laziness :)
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes hyper-busyness can seem a kind of laziness... hm, but I guess again its the same thing of not facing things directly...
Zen Arado: busy but not doing the things we should....
Pema Pera: (Zen, is there a way to call the cat over, to pet her head?)
Eliza Madrigal: sure some would look at monks meditating for hours and think that's avoidance or laziness of some sort...
Zen Arado: yes sure :)

Laziness as inappreciation...

Yakuzza Lethecus: what is laziness ? is lazyness a decision to avoid something we learned something that we don´t appreciate and it´s not about becoming virtueous to do it through all the pain would we still not do something when we´ve learned to drop the non appreciation of that situation and when we don´t see any sense in a particular situation is it really lazyness that makes us stop doing something since being active will usually have much better outcome on the long term, so is there true lazyness ?
Darren Islar: a flying cat
Darren Islar: :-)
Pema Pera: poor thing, in the water again . . . .
Pema Pera: oh hi there!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: thinks about ,,dropping" dropping the cat into the water
Pema Pera: (now what do I do, Zen?)
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Zen Arado: you should get a request to pet her
Pema Pera: not yet . . . .
Pema Pera: poes poes poes
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, sweet
Pema Pera: ah, okay!
Gaya Ethaniel: You have issues with laziness often Yaku?
Pema Pera: I bet getting out of the water is higher priority for her than being petted though . . . .
--BELL--
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Darren Islar: oh, she is really drowning now
Zen Arado: authenticity of laziness :)
Eliza Madrigal has seen that there are times to slow or even stop .... invest some time to think in different ways
Pema Pera: poor thing . . . .
Pema Pera: can you rescue her, Zen?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: maybe she's learning to like the water
Pema Pera is pondering Yaku's link between laziness and lack of appreciation . . . .
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Zen Arado: Hi Love:)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Love :)
Zen Arado: grab a seat
Pema Pera: bye bye cat!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Love, Nice to see you at PlayasBeing. Welcome :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Love
Pema Pera: good morning, Love
Eliza Madrigal: I'll give you a note about the group :)

Judging as laziness...

Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, i sometimes have the feeling that lazyness describing something lazyness only describes the not to go deeper into the problem why ppl stop doing and are ,,lazy" describing somebody as lazy implies a form of guilt for the ,,lazy person" in my sense of the term
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s complicated, because being non lazy will have always a better outcome, so lazyness is in itself irrational for me
Gaya Ethaniel: Indeed, it probably isn't what it seems :)
Darren Islar still trying to figure out what Yaku means
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm afraid I need to get back to RL. Nice seeing you all, have a good day!
Yakuzza Lethecus: actually me too, it´s hard to describe
Pema Pera: but when you listen to the laziness, it may tell you some very useful information
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Gaya :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
Zen Arado: bye Gaya
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you Gaya!
Darren Islar: :-) Yaku
Pema Pera: bye Gaya!
Darren Islar: bue Gaya
Pema Pera: irrational can be quite rational . . . .
Pema Pera: on another level
Zen Arado: laziness is also just being?
Zen Arado: we always think we should be 'doing'
Yakuzza Lethecus: but what if we do something day by day and don´t appreciate things as they happen and when we stop we call it lazyness, when somebody knows that i sit on the pc during the afternoon ,,they´ll propably call me lazy"
Zen Arado: but why worry what others think?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t know if it is just lazyness when i am here and think instead of working a 2nd job or something
Zen Arado: this is less lazy than sitting watching TV
SophiaSharon Larnia: being here is fulfilling a need for learning amybe
Zen Arado: at least we are being active
SophiaSharon Larnia: learning* maybe*
Eliza Madrigal: yes it goes back to context...
Eliza Madrigal: one can attentively watch something on tv and it open worlds... like last night with my son, watching "Life".... Jesus Christ lizards running along the water, waterfall frogs... amazing
Love Faulkes: the criteria for lazyness has to be changed
Yakuzza Lethecus: anykind of self reflection could just be defined as ,,lazyness" when the interest in self reflection can´t and won´t even be allowed to be communicated
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i can´t talk about pab to the ppl in my family
SophiaSharon Larnia: maybe its called meditation :)
Darren Islar: Interesting remark Zen about 'doing' since I hear teachers sometimes say we don't need to do anything
Yakuzza Lethecus: and i live in the flat above my farther and his girlfriend
Love Faulkes: it is the opposite of being active, but so much can be achieved with technology without the need to be active
Zen Arado: yes - didn't somebody write a book called 'In praise of Idleness' or something?
Darren Islar: I didn't figure out yet if I agree :-)
Eliza Madrigal: "everything bad is good for you" I know was one title a few years ago....
Pema Pera smiles at Sharon's solution
SophiaSharon Larnia: grins
Love Faulkes: that is so true Eliza lol
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: shouldn't make a rule of anything I'd think.. more being responsive?
Zen Arado: words like 'laziness' seem so vague when you think about them
Pema Pera: in general, the opposite of a great truth is a great truth: it's good to really work at improvement but then you overshoot, and you have to "just sit" and then you get too stiff and then you have to "do something" again . . . . .
Love Faulkes: could albert einstien be discribed as lazy, he never did anyhting active?
Darren Islar: I;m a bit late in my responses, but to me selfreflection is not laziness
Eliza Madrigal nods @ Pema

Actively just sitting...

Zen Arado: thinking is seen as more lazy than physical activity
Darren Islar: just sit and meditate is a very active thing to do
Pema Pera: it can be
Zen Arado: or learning to 'not do'
Pema Pera thinking back at slumber sessions in meditation . . . .
Eliza Madrigal: meditation can be walking or playing tennis perhaps I'd suppose...
Eliza Madrigal: I'd guess I'd imagine...
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Darren Islar: yes Zen, but there is always awareness present, that is a profound activity
--BELL--
Darren Islar: meditation can be anything, it is not about sitting down
Yakuzza Lethecus: nods
Zen Arado: you work hard at not doing anything :)
Darren Islar: :-)
Darren Islar: I guess that is what those teachers mean :-)

Pema Pera loves watching the misty pond during the 90 sec break here, letting thoughts dissolve like mist . . . . .
Eliza Madrigal: It can be pausing for 9 seconds, every quarter hour... in the middle of wherever you are and whatever you're doing
Zen Arado: a 'not doing' pause
Eliza Madrigal: staying there, in a way... and doing from that?
Zen Arado: being instead of doing
Zen Arado: is so alien to us
Darren Islar smiles at a silly thought that occurs in his mind:oops missed the ball, sorry guys i was doing my nine sec. :-)

Yakuzza Lethecus: since the "lazyness" i have in mind has no real sense for me i often ask myself if calling yourself lazy or somebody else lazy is true lazyness because it stops from exploring the reason and problem character of an individual nonappreaciated task and moment

Zen Arado: you have to explore the laziness maybe
Eliza Madrigal: wow, ya
Zen Arado: what is t?
Darren Islar: hmmm, in that case it is not important how you call it
Zen Arado: what is causing it?
Darren Islar: nice thought Yaku
Zen Arado: is it really laziness?
Zen Arado: or unwillingness to do something?
Zen Arado: or a valid need for rest or change?
Eliza Madrigal: it seems quite profound... outward judgements/ deflecting, being a kind of (mental?) laziness
Yakuzza Lethecus: i can´t formulate a good everyday experience example but i even thought about the issue that i don´t comment my chatlogs, i think about commenting my chatlogs all the time when i post them or don´t post them and until they are posted, i even become jealous about ppl who seem to be able to structure every session and in the first place i had the in mind that ,,i am just lazy" but it even bothers me
Eliza Madrigal: that's an every day experience example, Ya
Darren Islar: yes, and it isn't about laziness
Eliza Madrigal nods
Yakuzza Lethecus: but somebody else could say: that is
Eliza Madrigal: its open wrestling with doubt perhaps, which takes a lot of energy

That you make it to/ post your sessions promptly and often step in for others is a huge service, Ya!

Yakuzza Lethecus: nobody ever complained it´s as soon as somebody would say: oh eliza is putting so much efford in it and yaku isn´t for example he´s so lazy, a bad person could do that
Zen Arado: I am wrestling with honesty at the moment
Eliza Madrigal: Eliza does it because she finds it restful
Yakuzza Lethecus: the problem in real life is often when you can´t show success but get stuck while investing the same amount of time
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: and you have to be honest about whether you feel like dong that Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: so you relie on a postive supportive environment
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: other ppl then define if you are lazy, that would even be a kind of unsupportive
Darren Islar: agreed Yaku we do judge easily
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye all, rl calls (from far away) :)
Darren Islar: without even askig
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye ssl :)
Zen Arado: I didn't post comments at the start because I felt I was judging other people
Pema Pera: bye Sharon!
Darren Islar: bye sharon
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now!
Zen Arado: bye Sharon
Eliza Madrigal: indeed Yakuzza
Pema Pera: I have to get going too
Eliza Madrigal: (And Bye Sharon)
Darren Islar: bye Pema
Zen Arado: bye Pema
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye pema
Pema Pera: bye everybody!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: its an ongoing thought anyway
Love Faulkes: bye
Yakuzza Lethecus: i still contemplate on that issue a lot and will be for longer
Darren Islar: and I need to say that I found out I'm often judgemental
Eliza Madrigal: Oh sure, if we're honest, we don't even see half the judgements we are making in a given day....
Zen Arado: but it makes reading the logs a lot easier for others
Darren Islar: but luckely for the most of us and for you Yaku, you are far more then what you post
Eliza Madrigal: all the measuring we do
Darren Islar: and that is something we see too
Zen Arado: yes
Darren Islar: and can't say you're lazy
Eliza Madrigal: yes, all part of it... seeing it
Eliza Madrigal: the fixing, in a way, is even secondary
Zen Arado: you can enhance people's comments too
Darren Islar: but sometimes we get too much focused on what we think we cannot do
Zen Arado: true Darren
Darren Islar: and ask ourselves what other people think of that
Darren Islar: would think
Eliza Madrigal nods.... often that lingers longer....
Zen Arado: we have to be true to ourselves and not worry so much what ohters think
Eliza Madrigal: not the actual person thinking something/judging... but our worrying
Eliza Madrigal: our expecting of them too drains much energy
Darren Islar: yes, because we are not only judgmental about other people but most of us about ourselves
Zen Arado: very true Darren...
Darren Islar: but it is not easy to get passed that
Zen Arado: all comes down to ego again perhaps
Zen Arado: yeah...easy to say but hard to practice
Darren Islar: sometimes it feels like chewing gum that we can't get rid of
Eliza Madrigal thinks of Rumi's Shopping Advice... He says "buy SOMETHING, exchange SOMETHING... be part of the flow" (paraphrased due to my memory) "It makes absolutely no difference what people think of you"
Zen Arado: just to our egos
Eliza Madrigal: basically, just jump in wholeheartedly and the ego will fall off on its own?
Zen Arado: our 'self' survival mechanism
Zen Arado: eventually we hope
Eliza Madrigal: it will be exposed each time we challenge ourselves at least...
Zen Arado: yes
Darren Islar: survival mechanism is the most sticky gum
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: am reading about this atm
Eliza Madrigal: yes Zen?
Darren Islar: if you think you got rid of it, you find it somewhere else on your body
Zen Arado: ego is about self survival
Zen Arado: but it is too concerned with that
Zen Arado: and then cuses problems
Darren Islar: it means that ego is connected to fear or agression
Eliza Madrigal: it be an obsessive ego which worries about dropping ego all the time... hehe, tricky
Darren Islar: so I agree with you Zen
Zen Arado: yes...anything that threatens it
Darren Islar: everything that threatens over feeling of self value
Zen Arado: don't think you ever totally get rid of it
Zen Arado: but can ease it's grip maybe....
Darren Islar: no, but you don't need to be attached to it
Darren Islar: we need ego in order to survive
Zen Arado: yes
Love Faulkes: man is motivated by their ego, without it progress would be impossible
Eliza Madrigal: I've got to get going.... a 'doing' list awaits
Zen Arado: yes it motivates us too
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, note from Reflection... if you go thank him for the link to optical illusions, Ya
Zen Arado: bye Eliza
Darren Islar: oh, I need to go too, forgot about the time
Darren Islar: bye Eliza, Yaku and Zen
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Darren, Thanks Everyone.... a practical session today!
Zen Arado: bye Darren
Love Faulkes: bye Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you again Love
Darren Islar: sorry, and Love
Love Faulkes: nice to meet you too
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Ya :)
Love Faulkes: women have egos too but its known as vanity :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Zen Arado: think the male ego is worse :)
Love Faulkes: bye
Zen Arado: bye Yaku
--BELL--
Love Faulkes: you should see two women when there are no men around :)
Zen Arado: I'll bet:)
Zen Arado: did Eliza tell you theses conversations are recorded Love?

Yes I did, Zen (in IM), but thanks so much for asking!

[2010/04/09 7:34]  Eliza Madrigal: I need to let you know that we record our sessions...
[2010/04/09 7:34]  Eliza Madrigal: Do you mind being recorded?
[2010/04/09 7:35]  Love Faulkes: not at all
[2010/04/09 7:36]  Eliza Madrigal: Thanks :)