2010.04.16 13:00 - Theme session: Liza's meditation project

Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database. Liza Deischer has put in some comments

Arrivals

Liza Deischer: hey Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey liza, long time no see :)
Liza Deischer: no, so I'm glad to be here :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen
Liza Deischer: hey Zen
Liza Deischer: brb
Zen Arado: Hi Yaku, Liza

--BELL--

Qt Core: Hi all!
Zen Arado: Hi Qt :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi qt
Zen Arado: Hi Pema :)
Zen Arado: Hi Sharon :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ssl,pema
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone
Liza Deischer: hi QT
Qt Core: Hi Pema, SSL
Liza Deischer: hi Pema
Zen Arado: we dropped out and dropped in :)
Pema Pera: Hi Liza, Zen, Yaku, Qt, Sharon!
Pema Pera: and hi Agatha!
Liza Deischer: Hi Sharon, Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Hello everybody :)
Zen Arado: Hi Agatha :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi aga

people are still arriving, meanwhile others are worried about the volcano ashes and whether Wol and Gaya will be able to make it to SF

Yakuzza Lethecus: anyone knows when wol is or will fly to sf ?
Qt Core: hi agatha
Liza Deischer: no, I don't
Pema Pera: no, I haven't heard from Wol at all yet
Liza Deischer: I hope she will be able too
Zen Arado: don't think there is any flying allowed yet?
Qt Core: Hi Eliza
Liza Deischer: hi Eliza
Zen Arado: Hi Eliza:)
Agatha Macbeth: Liz :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone! :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, they closed nearly all german airports today
Pema Pera: Gaya will fly on Tuesday now, it turns out
Liza Deischer: not till at least tomorrow morning
Pema Pera: hi Eliza!
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everuone who arrived, and brb
Liza Deischer: and then there are still a lot of passengers waiting
Eliza Madrigal: apologies ... a bit late picking up my children :)
Liza Deischer: you're on time Eliza, no worries
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Qt Core: and tomorrow even italian airport are starting to close
Agatha Macbeth: Eek
Qt Core: the northern ones
Zen Arado: N.Ireland airports are open again I hear
Eliza Madrigal: Seems a good sign, Zen :)
Zen Arado: we are at the edge of the ash cloud though
Agatha Macbeth: Ashes to ashes....
Zen Arado: dust to dust...
Eliza Madrigal: Would everyone like to begin today's theme session? I know Liza has prepared quite well... I have notecards to give each of you also :)
Agatha Macbeth: Fun to funky?
Zen Arado: sure
Eliza Madrigal: :) Excellent. ::hands the mic to Liza::::

Theme-session: Liza unfolds her plans

Liza Deischer: okay thanks Eliza
Liza Deischer: not so long ago Wol, Eliza and I did an experiment, doing a meditation lead by me
Liza Deischer: and I asked Cal, who can't be here tonight, to look over my shoulder, during the set up and evaluations
Liza Deischer: to me it was new to do a meditation in sl and I asked Wol and Eliza to be present to see if my approach of meditation could mean something for PaB
Liza Deischer: so this theme-session of tonight is about to see if there might be an interest from PaB members in a serie meditation session, outside the regular PaB meetings
Liza Deischer: Eliza and Wol will share there experiences with you in a moment, but let me first tell you something about the how and why

Zen Arado: Hi Wol
Agatha Macbeth waves to Wol
Wol Euler: hello everyone, sorry I'm late
Liza Deischer: adn Wol is just comingin, hi Wol :-)
Pema Pera: hi Wol !
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol, Glad you made it :)

Dropping, how does it work?

Liza Deischer: We talk a lot in PaB about dropping and about letting go of (the attachment of) feelings, thoughts or the emotions we have
Liza Deischer: my name wouldn't be Liza :) if I wouldn't have asked myself: how does that work, how do we do that? I mean, how does that really work?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Liza Deischer: what happens when we really drop something?
Liza Deischer: and what is a feeling or thought without the attachment?
Pema Pera: :)
Liza Deischer: I guess dropping (the attachment) is actually doing a few things to us
Liza Deischer: first we stop with what we are doing and get some kind of feeling of the here and now
Liza Deischer: secondly by doing so, we create openness, because by dropping something we make space
Liza Deischer: and if we are also willing to look at what is happening at that moment within ourselves, we even can open up to other layers of who we think we are
Liza Deischer: by doing so we create freedom in the choices we make
Liza Deischer: just a few thoughts of mine
Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful Liza, that's very clear

Learning from experiences; meditation as a tool to be able to look closer to our experiences

Liza Deischer: but what does openness really mean, what does it mean to you, what can you do with it, how can it make you more free and how can we find this openness?
Liza Deischer: there is a lot to say about those questions and we prove that by talking about it in the sessions a lot
Liza Deischer: but I realized that a lot of answers to that is in the experiences we have not in how we think about them

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: if we can look close (or closer) to our experiences, we can learn more about the patterns we use and why we are using them
Pema Pera: that's a nice and very thoughtful way of posing central questions, Liza!
Liza Deischer: thanks Pema
Liza Deischer: our experiences are even giving us clues about how we can create more openness and giving us more choices
Liza Deischer: the 9 sec. is giving us a great tool to get closer to those experiences
Liza Deischer: but we can even get closer if we take the time for ourselves to sit down and have a good look
Liza Deischer: meditation is a tool with which we are able to do that
Liza Deischer: with meditation we are able to look more closely to our own experiences
Liza Deischer: we do that by creating a situation in which we are less distracted and by using techniques to let all the things that can distract, go
Liza Deischer: if we do that we can make our selves more open to anything that wants to appear to us
Liza Deischer: and then we can get surprised by certain feelings, or suddenly understand why we do the things we do in that particular way
Liza Deischer: and that understanding is not coming from our 'head' but comes from deeper inside of us
Liza Deischer: don't ask me from where :-)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Liza Deischer: I have learned and still use a meditation technique in which I work with a so called meditation-object.
Liza Deischer: that meditation-object is something that is always there with us, we can't misplace or loose it
Liza Deischer: and that is our own breathing
Eliza Madrigal: :)

How and what

Liza Deischer: so I came up with this idea to organize a few sessions, 4 to start with, especially for members of PaB to be able to learn if this meditation is something that you can benefit from
Liza Deischer: I know there are a lot of you who are meditating, but I also know, out of my own experience, how hard it can be to do that on your own
Liza Deischer: to give you a better picture of what I have in mind.....
Liza Deischer: besides the 'real' meditation of dropping and the concentrating on our breathing, I will also do some bodywork
Liza Deischer: small and slow physical, exercises which will make it easier to ground yourself

Wol Euler: hello EanAtan, I'll give you an intro to the group in IM
EanAtan Icthan: (hy - this is bertram - half incognito) ... ;-)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi :)
Wol Euler grins
Liza Deischer: hi :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Wol, and Ean :) Then I'll give you a note about our theme session today ;-D
Pema Pera: Hi BertAtan!
Agatha Macbeth: (Oh dear)
EanAtan Icthan: lol - didn't want to interrupt ! :-)

Liza Deischer: but will also give you the opportunity to learn more about your body and the connections with your emotions and thoughts
Liza Deischer: last, but not least I will also use visualizations to ease the way to a more concentrated state
EanAtan Icthan: lol - didn't want to interrupt ! :-)
Liza Deischer: these visualizations can also bring you into contact to certain aspects of yourself and make them more clear to you
Liza Deischer: so even to those who has his own practice, this could be interesting, since every practice uses his own techniques
Liza Deischer: okay, this is about what I had to say
Eliza Madrigal: :) ::: claps::: thank you for such a clear presentation, Liza
Liza Deischer: to get some information on how it could work, I would like to ask Wol and Eliza to share their experiences
Liza Deischer: thanks Eliza
Zen Arado: thanks Liza
Eliza Madrigal: Sure
SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you Liza :)
Liza Deischer: yw

A small intermezzo, talking about the vulcano

Liza Deischer: but first Wol I think everyone here first would like to know if you will be able to get to SF
Wol Euler laughs
Eliza Madrigal smiles, yes
Wol Euler: I would like to know that too.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: but God isn't answering my calls.
Wol Euler shrugs.
Eliza Madrigal: maybe god is meditating
Liza Deischer: Jeez
Eliza Madrigal: (sorry)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Liza Deischer: you're not in much luck with your flights
Wol Euler: Appreciate the Presence of High-Atmospheric-Dust as a Presentation by Being :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)))
Liza Deischer: :-)
Pema Pera: hehehe
SophiaSharon Larnia: I had a dream i was in another country driving, i think i was looking for an airport that was open
Wol Euler: heh
Liza Deischer: well, I'm afraid whole Europe is shutting down
Wol Euler nods
Agatha Macbeth: It might as well

Pema Pera: hi Sophia!
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Sophia
Zen Arado: Hi Sophia
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sophia :))
Wol Euler: hello sophia, long time no see
Liza Deischer: hi Sophia
EanAtan Icthan: hey sophia ! :-)
Agatha Macbeth: Salaam Sophia :)

EanAtan Icthan: and i sit in ireland and don't come home *gr* ...
Wol Euler: oh wow
Liza Deischer: ah yes, that's true
Pema Pera: You're in Ireland, Bert? And now your vacation is extended?

--BELL--

EanAtan Icthan: yes. wanted to go back tomorrow _ canceled
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: Munich was the last German airport open, it closed at sunset today
Pema Pera: volcanic sunset :-)
Wol Euler: yes, at and because of :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hardly krakatoa mind you...
EanAtan Icthan: and have to pay one more flight after another may be lol until i get all back then, hopefully *gr* ;-)
Wol Euler: fortunately!

Back to the theme-session

SophiaSharon Larnia: back to the topic Liza, what sort of visualizations? (seeing a lovely red sunset and becoming somewhat alarmed!)
Liza Deischer: good question Sharon
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, that might be a great thing for you to say more about Liza, then Wol and I can share
SophiaSharon Larnia: (oops forgot sorry )
Liza Deischer: but first mayb Wol and Eliza can tell something about that
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, okay :)
Liza Deischer: then I will get further into that
Wol Euler looks at Eliza. Want to go first?
Liza Deischer: Eliza would you like to start

Eliza and Wol telling about there experiences with a meditation leaded by Liza

Eliza Madrigal: Well what I can share is that first, Liza's voice is perfectly suited for this...
Eliza Madrigal: and that she is quite patient... measured, so that one might really relax and 'go along' in a sense...
Eliza Madrigal: and that I find her technique very much 'non-intrusive'
Eliza Madrigal: using gentle imagery... really quite surprising. Also, she takes her time, breaking the meditation into distinct parts and allowing one to hm...
Eliza Madrigal: get used to deeper relaxation perhaps.
Eliza Madrigal: Those are my first thoughts... Wol?
Wol Euler: well, I really enjoyed the practice session. It was surprising in several ways
Wol Euler: I had my eyes closed much of the time, and with Liza's voice in my ears I entirely forgot that we were physically separated
Wol Euler: I "felt" very much together with E and L.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Wol Euler: there was quite a bit of "body work", guided movement
Wol Euler: and that too became a kind of mantra as we did it
Wol Euler: I was amazed at how my sense of time simply fell away
Wol Euler: I thought we'd been working for about 25 minutes, but really it was over 90.
Wol Euler grins
Liza Deischer: yes, I remember :-)
Eliza Madrigal: True!
Wol Euler: It was great, I really enjoyed and benefited from it
Eliza Madrigal: yes me too.... Glad that you mentioned the body work aspect also Wol, because I felt that was important
Eliza Madrigal: too
Wol Euler: and would recommend it

Body work

Liza Deischer: yes, the bodywork is an important aspect
SophiaSharon Larnia: bodywork,the term is not new to me, in which way?
Liza Deischer: it prevents you from a mind that is flowing away :-)
Wol Euler: "yoga" might be a related term :)
Liza Deischer see a brain flowing away :-)
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Wol Euler: in that instance, small repetitive movements, circling, cycles of motion
Wol Euler: but tiny controlled movements, not like aerobics class
Liza Deischer: NO
Wol Euler: "bodyfulness" instead of mindfulness :)
Liza Deischer: ah, nice word, bodyfulness
Pema Pera: :)
Wol Euler: awareness of the body, of the feeling of motion
Liza Deischer: but that is the idea yes
Eliza Madrigal: yes, very subtle, basic... perhaps why effective..
Liza Deischer: those are very simple practices
Liza Deischer: anybody can do
Liza Deischer: you don't need to get your body in a terrible position
Wol Euler grins and nods
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Liza Deischer: and the slow moving is important
SophiaSharon Larnia: haha
Liza Deischer: the slow and repetitive movement
Liza Deischer: making it a meditation in its own
Liza Deischer: and making it easier to focus on your body
Eliza Madrigal: and easily incorporated here also, I found myself thinking... that I often correct posture, but hm.... why not stretch a little... let the body partake of the pause, in a way
Eliza Madrigal: nods
Wol Euler nods.
Liza Deischer: and getting grounded a bit more
Liza Deischer: yes and when yet get more used to it
Liza Deischer: you can also start to focus on certain aspects
Liza Deischer: for instance
Liza Deischer: there is always a moment of resistance
Liza Deischer: where the body starts to protest
Liza Deischer: it give you a nice and gentle way to see closer how that feels and how you react

--BELL--

EanAtan Icthan: ((sry - leave again - ty all , look forward to see ya all again - have a graet time plz ! ... *wave*))
Wol Euler: bye ean
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye EanAtan :)
Pema Pera: bye Ean!
Liza Deischer: bye ean
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bert
Zen Arado: bye Ean

Visualizations

Liza Deischer: you also asked about the guided meditation Sharon
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Liza Deischer: I don't know if Eliza and Wol can say more about that?

Zen Arado: Hi Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: hi everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Bleu :) One moment and I'll give you a note :)
Pema Pera: hi there Bleu!
Liza Deischer: hi Bleu
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Bleu
Bleu Oleander: thx
SophiaSharon Larnia: brb
sophia Placebo: hi bleu

Eliza Madrigal: The visualization Liza used for us, was one of the sun.... of warmth... natural
Bleu Oleander: (internet was down for over an hour!)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, no fun that Bleu :) glad you made it
Liza Deischer: yes it is not really a guided meditation, but a visualization
Liza Deischer: then can bring up a certain aspect
Liza Deischer: with Wol and Eliza I used the sun
Liza Deischer: but it can also be a grounding exercise, like feeling you really root into the ground
Liza Deischer: both are different aspects, because the sun is more placed in the upper part of the body
Liza Deischer: and gives other 'information' then when you focus on a grounding exercise
Liza Deischer: the idea is that I will use different kinds
Liza Deischer: and then you can see for yourself what works best for you
Eliza Madrigal: Right. the 'parts' are common to guided visualizations .... but Liza's technique was one that gave one a real sense of learning to 'let go step by step '... as Wol mentioned, the time aspect especially
Liza Deischer: a guided meditation guides you to something
Liza Deischer: a visualization is more a concentration on a certain aspect

Qt Core: need to go, bye all
sophia Placebo: bye Qt
Pema Pera: bye Qt
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Qt, thanks
Wol Euler: buona notte, qt
Liza Deischer: bye QT
Agatha Macbeth: Ciao QT :)
Zen Arado: bye Qt

information about the where and how

Liza Deischer: okay 5 minutes left on the clock
Liza Deischer: so let me wrap it up a little
Liza Deischer: I would like to start with four meditations
Liza Deischer: just to see if there is interest and if this might work for us
Liza Deischer: after that anything can happen
Liza Deischer: the sessions will take place at my place
Liza Deischer: that is called the Shift
Liza Deischer: I made it for this kind of purposes
Pema Pera: nice name!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Liza Deischer: it is small (6 seats beside myself) and I think it is important to work with small groups
Liza Deischer: :-)
Liza Deischer: for maximum result
Liza Deischer: our session took over 90 minutes being with the two of us
Liza Deischer: with more people it will also take more time
Liza Deischer: but I will cut it down to 60 minutes, 90 tops
Wol Euler grins
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Liza Deischer: that means that I am going to vary with the elements that we can use
Liza Deischer: like sometimes we do a 'bodymindfulness' and another time we will get more into the visiualization
Liza Deischer: I don't want to keep you there for hours :-)

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: (look forward to reading the log since I missed the session .... c u all!)
Wol Euler: bye bleu, take care
Liza Deischer: bye Bleu
sophia Placebo: bye beu
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Bleu, and Pema
Agatha Macbeth: Night Bleu
Pema Pera: thank you very much, Liza, and Wol and Eliza too!
Zen Arado: bye Bleu, Pema
Pema Pera: bfn
sophia Placebo: bye pema
Wol Euler: bye pema, hope to see you soon
Pema Pera: me 2 !
Agatha Macbeth: C ya Pema
Liza Deischer: bye Pema

Using Voice

Zen Arado: what about posture? IN Zen we think it important to keep the back straight
Liza Deischer: well Wol reminded me of telling you something, then I get to your question Zen
Eliza Madrigal: Also Liza, as a practical matter, how would you like people to contact you if they'd like to partake?
Zen Arado: worry that in RL people are lying on a sofa or something
Liza Deischer: I will use Voice
Liza Deischer: because I need my voice and the timing of it to guide you into meditation
Liza Deischer: and if I ask to close your eyes, it will be pretty hard to read the chattlines :-)
Wol Euler: (you won't need to speak, but you will need to listen)
Liza Deischer: yes, because for in between the different elements
Liza Deischer: we can also use the chat
Liza Deischer: at those moments I will ask you about your experiences

SophiaSharon Larnia: bye all have to go (sorry distracted)
Zen Arado: bye SSL
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Sharon :)
sophia Placebo: g2g as well , bye all
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sophia (and SophiaSharon)
Zen Arado: bye Sopia
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for coming :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Soph
Eliza Madrigal: I'll need to go also, but I want to thank you again for such a clear presentation, Liza. And thanks Yakuzza, for letting us use your session!
Zen Arado: bye Eliza
Yakuzza Lethecus: it's fine not to have the friday sillyness :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: onigokko
Liza Deischer: bye eliza and thanks
Eliza Madrigal: oh that may be coming
Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
Yakuzza Lethecus: stop
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Eliza Madrigal: Oh! Also Liza, Bye and thanks again *hugs*
Wol Euler: bye eliza, take care
Eliza Madrigal: (that was two sentences but they came together well-hah)
Agatha Macbeth: Night Liz :))

Posture

Liza Deischer: Your question Zen
Liza Deischer: posture is more important in Zen then in my kind of meditation
Liza Deischer: but it is important anyway
Liza Deischer: what I do is to give the basics
Liza Deischer: with the physical 'exercises' i will get more into that
Liza Deischer: but in a more natural way
Liza Deischer: looking for your own balance
Liza Deischer: feeling it instead of somebody telling you how to do it
Liza Deischer: I found out that works best
Zen Arado: ok thanks
Liza Deischer: but I do give a bases

What to do, when you're interested

Liza Deischer: well, or the log and for the ones still here
Liza Deischer: If you are interested, let me know
Liza Deischer: then i can see with how many people we are
Liza Deischer: because maybe we need to different groups
Zen Arado: depends on the time too though
Liza Deischer: it depends
Liza Deischer: yes I understand, but that is hard for me to say right now
Yakuzza Lethecus: i would definetivly come
Liza Deischer: I don't know the day yet, but for the time
Liza Deischer: I have 11.30 am slt in my head
Liza Deischer: because I think that is about the best time when everyone can be available
Zen Arado: that is ok for me except for 2 nights per week
Liza Deischer: well, that is what I need to figure out is which night (or afternoon) will be best
Yakuzza Lethecus: not wednesdays :)
Liza Deischer: :-)
Liza Deischer: no not wednesday being the only night I'm not always available myself
Zen Arado: maybe need choice of sittings
Liza Deischer: yes Zen, depends on how many people are interested
Zen Arado: to suit people in different time zones
Liza Deischer: that too, if that is possible
Liza Deischer: oh and to make sure:
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think it wouldn't even be a problem with an overlap on pab in tim
Yakuzza Lethecus: the dream workshop also overlaps
Liza Deischer: the meditation is not religion-related-thing
Wol Euler: well, it's not ideal.
Liza Deischer: I agree with Wol
Liza Deischer: I need to ask people when they are available and need to figure out what I can do best
Wol Euler: perhaps just choose two days and times (both different) for the first two series, and announce them. People will choose which suits them best
Liza Deischer: but I will try not to interfere with the regular PaB-meetings

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: maybe I will Wol, but first I would like to see some names
Zen Arado: I can't go Tues and Thurs
Liza Deischer: europeans or not
Liza Deischer: it is easier to decide that way
Zen Arado: otherwise would be interested
Liza Deischer: is noted Zen
Liza Deischer: Darren has a notecard that he can give you
Liza Deischer: I was so stupid to give it to him :-)
Liza Deischer: to make allternations
Zen Arado: would like to sit with pab 'ers
Wol Euler: :)
Liza Deischer: only Pab'ers are involved
Liza Deischer: and as a dreamer he is, he didn't gave it back to me :-)
Liza Deischer: yes Yaku , thanks :-)
Liza Deischer: just let me know in the coming week
Agatha Macbeth: TY
Liza Deischer: Zen I put you on the list
Zen Arado: thanks Liza
Liza Deischer: well, I've got nothing to say anymore
Wol Euler smiles.
Zen Arado: let me know when meditation is to take place
Wol Euler: Well done, Liza, thank you.
Liza Deischer: thanks Wol
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, thx liza
Agatha Macbeth: Thank you
Zen Arado: thanks Liza and Wol

The volcano and our expectations of life

Liza Deischer: I hope you make it to SF wol
Wol Euler: me too. thank you
Wol Euler: but, y'know, it is what it is.
Liza Deischer: yes, I know
Wol Euler: I'm trying not to be attached to the idea of going to SF
Zen Arado: funny how we always expect things to go right for us
Zen Arado: and how often they don't
Agatha Macbeth: Bye everybody
Liza Deischer: bye Agatha
Zen Arado: who would have dreamed of a volcanic cloud?
Wol Euler: bye aggers
Zen Arado: bye Aga
Liza Deischer: well, what is right
Liza Deischer: the problem is we don't know
Zen Arado: the way we think they should go :)
Liza Deischer: if there is a right anyway
Zen Arado: just constructions we put on reality
Wol Euler: brb
Zen Arado: but so important to us sometimes
Liza Deischer: yes
Zen Arado: am learning not to put 'value' on things
Zen Arado: just let them be what they are
Liza Deischer: yes, but sometimes that is pretty hard
Zen Arado: yes it is
Liza Deischer: but it is a good exercise anyway
Zen Arado: our minds do it so automatically

dropping and ignorance; 'mazzel'karma

Yakuzza Lethecus: a thought just flashed through my mind: "can dropping make us ignorant ?"
Wol Euler chuckles
Liza Deischer: no
Zen Arado: you don't have to drop your brain
Zen Arado: just be aware of what it is doing

--BELL--

Zen Arado: keep it in its place - 'the mind is a good servant but a bad master' someone said
Wol Euler: heh, yes
Zen Arado: does that make any sense?
Liza Deischer: yes
Yakuzza Lethecus: When i am sometimes in a good state of mind when i call myself nonjudgemental and not grasping then i am not skeptic but my skeptisism even lead me where i am right now
Liza Deischer: my teacher once said that there are people that have 'lucky' karma
Liza Deischer: they have a lot of good karma without being aware
Liza Deischer: in the end awareness and karma go together
Yakuzza Lethecus: i i would never have grasped and made myself suffering i wouldn't have been motivated to seek further, maybe
Zen Arado: until something bad happens....
Liza Deischer: that excludes ignorance
Liza Deischer: exactly
Liza Deischer: In Dutch we call it mazzel karma
Zen Arado: skepticiam is ok up to a point I think
Liza Deischer: mazzel being originally a hebrew word
Zen Arado: so long as it doesn't close you off too much
Liza Deischer: which really hits the nail on his head
Zen Arado: where you won't accept anything
Zen Arado: mazzel?
Liza Deischer: right Yaku
Liza Deischer: yes
Liza Deischer: eh......
Liza Deischer: just being lucky
Zen Arado: ok
Liza Deischer: but there is a ring to that word
Liza Deischer: I thought maybe, being a Hebrew word, somebody would know it
Zen Arado: not me :)
Liza Deischer: because it is closer then just being lucky
Yakuzza Lethecus: mazel tov ?
Liza Deischer: yes
Liza Deischer: it is being lucky in an ignorant way

Zen Arado: ok I better go
Zen Arado: do my RL meditation:)
Liza Deischer: okay Zen, see you
Liza Deischer: :-)
Zen Arado: bye all

Some thoughts about beauty and grasping beauty

Liza Deischer: for Wol's feeling of symmetrie, I'd better change places
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Liza Deischer: not that she is noticing it
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: back
Yakuzza Lethecus: wb
Wol Euler: and grateful
Liza Deischer: wb
Liza Deischer: (this silence is nice)
Wol Euler smiles.
Yakuzza Lethecus imagines the fountain as a little volcano
Wol Euler: :)
Liza Deischer: but this one is nice and cool
Liza Deischer: I'm pretty sure Darren would like to feel that on his face :-)

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: the other one is more cruel, but also very powerful and beautiful
Wol Euler nods.
Yakuzza Lethecus: is all beauty a matter of perspective ?
Liza Deischer: interesting question
Liza Deischer: initially I should say yes
Liza Deischer: but there seem to be also a collective mind on what beauty is
Wol Euler: I'm not sure what the question means.
Yakuzza Lethecus: dropping means for me not only to get rid of grasping but also of learning to appreciate the moment more
Yakuzza Lethecus: i implicitly not want to become stoic
Yakuzza Lethecus: i try to replace the grasping with a calm and warm feeling
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i just decide to see the beauty ?
Wol Euler: ah, I see.
Wol Euler: perhaps the answer is "yes", then, but in a different way than I first took it.
Wol Euler: not "things seem beautiful because I look at them in a certain way"
Wol Euler: but rather "everything is beautiful if you stop looking at it in the wrong way" :)
Liza Deischer: :-)
Liza Deischer: I guess it is still grasping
Liza Deischer: but grasping used in a beneficial way
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i think i can't escape grasping and feel that i don't even want to
Liza Deischer: I think it is a very good start
Liza Deischer: because it is so hard not to grasp
Liza Deischer: still don't know what it really means
Liza Deischer: so you make it more simple
Liza Deischer: and start with looking at things in a different way
Yakuzza Lethecus: only the grasping is shifting
Liza Deischer: yes but it immediately gives you another perspective
Liza Deischer: so at least you know there is more then one truth
Yakuzza Lethecus: there will be glimpses, never truth
Liza Deischer: that is an important 'shift'
Liza Deischer: :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i feel like floating in the own ignorance and seeing glimses in codependent arising
Yakuzza Lethecus: so right now it shifts towards communication
Yakuzza Lethecus: and getting rid of schemas
Liza Deischer: I noticed :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: but as i get away from older there are sneaking new schemas in
Yakuzza Lethecus: not yet verbalized

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: this is so beautiful
Liza Deischer: just by watching the process
Liza Deischer: you're grapsing will get less
Yakuzza Lethecus: trust is a key issue
Liza Deischer: yes
Liza Deischer: (I should say key word, it can be an issue, but that means trouble :-))

Liza Deischer: i need to go, see some friends
Wol Euler: :)
Liza Deischer: they have been wondering where Liza was in the last few weeks :-)
Wol Euler: heheh
Wol Euler: goodnight liza, enjoy the weekend
Liza Deischer: thanks Wol for being here
Liza Deischer: see you both
Wol Euler: my pleasure, sorry I was late
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care liza
Liza Deischer: np
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care wol
Liza Deischer: cy both :-)
Wol Euler: bye yaku, enjoy the weekend