2010.07.17 13:00 - nel Bleu di pinto di Blue

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

Pema Pera: Hi Bruce!
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Pema. Good to see you agqain.
Bruce Mowbray: again.
Pema Pera: Same here
Pema Pera: how's life?
Pema Pera: Hi Qt!
Bruce Mowbray: Very hot at the moment -- just finished mowing the grass here at the farm in southern Ohio.
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Qt.
Pema Pera: I'm in Copenhagen right now, perfect temperature :)
Pema Pera: I managed to escape from the heat in Japan
Bruce Mowbray: great! --- wonderful country. wonderful city. love those Danes.
Qt Core: while here we have the perfect temp and humidity... if yiu are a boiling egg
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Pema Pera: :-)
Wol Euler: evening all
Qt Core: hi wol
Pema Pera: It's very interesting for me to visit Denmark again
Pema Pera: hi Wol!
Bruce Mowbray: all the better to come to the fountain and cool off, huh?
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Wol.
Wol Euler: hello pema, qt, bruce
Pema Pera: I remember the first time I visited, as a student, when I noticed all the differences between Denmark and Holland -- and now, returning from the US, I'm struck by all the similarities :)
Wol Euler: :)

We quickly come up with a variety of explanations.

Wol Euler: perhaps that is a sign of maturity?
Wol Euler: the ability to see beyond the superficial
Qt Core: or just more world knowlegde
Pema Pera: or alienation :-)
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Pema Pera: living in the US and Japan mostly
Bruce Mowbray: or maybe the countries themselves have changed.
Pema Pera: acquiring the ability to talk about "those quaint Europeans" :)
Wol Euler: ha!
Qt Core: ;)
Pema Pera: I remembered Americans asking me "you're from Europe?"
Pema Pera: when I visited the first time
Pema Pera: and I thought it was soooo odd
Pema Pera: I was from Holland
Pema Pera: and from the planet Earth
Pema Pera: but I had never identified with Europe . . . .
Wol Euler nods
Pema Pera: and then . . . they told me I was "Caucasian"
Pema Pera: and I told them we had no mountains in Holland
Pema Pera: and that if anything I was Alpine
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: the Caucasus was faaaar away
Qt Core: hi Bleu
Bleu Oleander: hi everyone :)
Pema Pera: hi Bleu!
Wol Euler: hello bleu
Bruce Mowbray: How yeu, bleu?

A somewhat complex compliment:

Wol Euler: one can always tell when Bleu arrives, the downloading-meter goes crazy :)
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Pema Pera: :-)
Wol Euler: each time a brand-new texture or two
Pema Pera: a royal entrance :)
Bleu Oleander: old texture, new look
Bleu Oleander: does that mean I'm causing more lag?
Wol Euler: nope
Wol Euler: just a one-time delay while the textures are loaded
Bleu Oleander: wouldn't want to do that
Bleu Oleander: ah ok
Wol Euler: happens in theory with everyone, juust that most people don't change that often
Pema Pera: it's like a 9-sec break, Bleu, you're giving the right example!
Bleu Oleander: i c
Wol Euler carefully avoids meeting anyone's eyes.
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Pema Pera: drop what you have to see what Bleu is (today)
Wol Euler: :)
Bleu Oleander: funny
Bleu Oleander: I dropped yesterday's look
Pema Pera: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: nel Bleu di pinto di Blue. . .{Bruce and Blub are humming.]
Pema Pera: :-)
Bleu Oleander: my song?
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray can't say for sure.
Agatha Macbeth: Evenin' all :)
Wol Euler: hello yaku, aggers
Pema Pera: hi Yaku and Agatha!
Bleu Oleander: hi Agatha, Yaku

Qt provides the original:

Qt Core: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-DVi0ugelc
Pema Pera: wow, 1958!

After this session, I even found a later version that shows a PaB-like fountain pond:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tqpSymmTz4&feature=related

Qt Core: straight from the year it was first sug
Wol Euler: there was EUrovision in 1958? wow.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Agatha Macbeth: Nabend Yaku
Qt Core: that was its main show, a europe wide song contest
Qt Core: hi Yaku
Qt Core: and hi Agatha
Agatha Macbeth waves
Pema Pera: btw, Wol, Yaku and Bertram and Lia and I will have dinner, a week from Sunday, in Koeln -- probably just a bit too far from Stuttgart . . . .
Pema Pera: hi ELiza!
Qt Core: hi eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hiya transgressor ;-)
Wol Euler: I'll already be in canada then :(
Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza
Wol Euler: hello eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Funny tag Ag :)
Wol Euler: flying on thursday morning
Pema Pera: ah!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema, Bruce, Wol, Ya, Qt, Bleu :)
Bruce Mowbray: Howdy do, Eliza and Aggs.
Pema Pera: way ahead of us all
Bruce Mowbray: and Yaku. too.
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Liz :)

Now for the big question:

Wol Euler: do we have a topic?
Pema Pera scratching his head
Wol Euler chuckles
Eliza Madrigal: I used all of mine earlier...
Bruce Mowbray goes blank.
Bleu Oleander: blankness as opportunity for awareness?
Eliza Madrigal: Bruce took them... haha...
Pema Pera: Bruce ate my homework . . . .
Wol Euler: :)
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Bruce Mowbray: Pema's quote from Blake is one of my favorites in all of poetry.
Pema Pera: I like blankness as openness, Bleu
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bruce Mowbray: To see a world in a grain of sand. . .
Bruce Mowbray: And heaven in a wild flower,
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: yes, that's a very pithy one
Bruce Mowbray: Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
Bruce Mowbray: And eternity in an hour.
Pema Pera: I thouht about that a couple days ago, in a different context:
Pema Pera: I was in Sweden, in Gothenburg, a lovely city
Pema Pera: and today I realized that most likely I will never visit again
Pema Pera: and for the rest of my life I will have just the memories of many nice streets and cafes
Pema Pera: but . . .
Pema Pera: then I realized that any day spent in cities that I frequent
Pema Pera: are ALSO equally unique:
Pema Pera: I can never return to the cafe of today, say, anywhere . . .
Pema Pera: time is such a mystery
Bleu Oleander: true
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: to any moment
Bruce Mowbray: Heraclitus: Can't step into the same river twice.
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: I mean no
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: (we Japanese take that literally :-)
Wol Euler: hehehe

We share various Heraclitean experiences, from Florence . . .

Qt Core: i had that experience very real, when i went the second time in my life in Firenze, the first time i found a great restaurant
Qt Core: and the second one i was unable to find it, even if i remembered quite well where it was
Agatha Macbeth: Always a good reason :))
Qt Core: so i wandered by foot for a couple hous wondering what happened
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: was the building still there?
Qt Core: no
Pema Pera: !!
Bruce Mowbray: There goes that quantuum leaping stuff again!
Pema Pera: hahaha
Pema Pera: the relativity of restaurants . . .
Bruce Mowbray: I had a similar experience in Edinburgh.
Qt Core: that was the most irritating things (an it was a building that nobody would destroy)
Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm.
Pema Pera: is there an afterlife for good restaurants?
Wol Euler: hehehe
Qt Core: in the end i followed my nose to another restauran ;-)
Wol Euler: ohter than in our memories and tales?
Eliza Madrigal: the restaurant at the end of the universe...
Pema Pera: :-)

 . . . to Edinburgh.

Bruce Mowbray: The second time I went to Edingurgh..
Bruce Mowbray: Edinburgh,
Bruce Mowbray: the entire town had flupped 180 degrees.
Bruce Mowbray: flipped.
--BELL--
Pema Pera: :-)
Qt Core: north south or upside down ? ;-)
Pema Pera: or mirror image
Bruce Mowbray: My mental "north" and "south" had reversed themselves and I wandered a couple of miles in the opposite direction
Bruce Mowbray: of where I needed to go.
Bruce Mowbray: I eventually got set right by turning the map up-side down.
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: we always have more freedom than we think . . .
Pema Pera: we can always change our map, or at least our direction :)
Bruce Mowbray: The Firth of Forth (normally NORTH of the city) seemed to me to be "sourth" -- what confusion!
Agatha Macbeth: With me it's the other way round
Bruce Mowbray: ?
Bruce Mowbray: what's that, Aggs?
Wol Euler: how so?
Pema Pera: Fourth of First?
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!

Freedom as a new topic.

Agatha Macbeth: I always think I've got less freedom
Wol Euler: but that's what Pema said, I thought? that we think we have less freedom than is actually there
Agatha Macbeth: Other way round?
Bruce Mowbray: sounds claustrophobic to me (I mean that would be claustrophobic FOR me, if I did that).
Agatha Macbeth: Or is my head the other way round?
Eliza Madrigal: flipped :)
Bruce Mowbray: You look just fine to me, Aggs.
Agatha Macbeth: Ty :)
Bruce Mowbray: beautiful outfit, too, btw.
Wol Euler agrees
Agatha Macbeth: Me?
Bruce Mowbray: Beautiful wine-colored outfit, yes.
Bleu Oleander: lovely :)
Agatha Macbeth: Actually it was a freebie from Blak Opal
Wol Euler: wow
Bleu Oleander: nice
Eliza Madrigal zooms
Agatha Macbeth: Still going!
Wol Euler makes a note
Pema Pera: freebies as more ways to freedom!
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes the scale can tell me that I have less freedom than I thought ... so can happen...
Pema Pera now wondering whether "transgressing" is a way to find new freedom . . .

(I was making a connection with Agatha's group name)

Wol Euler: definitely so :)
Agatha Macbeth: Could be
Wol Euler: transgession implies a rule that restrains and constrains, and breaking through it
Agatha Macbeth nods
Pema Pera: can anyway think of a situation in which we are not free?
Bruce Mowbray: Having my mental sense of direction flipped afforded me the opportunity to discover a part of Edinburgh that I'd not seen before -- a transgression into that other part, as it were.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: interesting, Bruce!
Bruce Mowbray: Someties I do not feel "free" in dreams.
Bruce Mowbray: sometimes.
Wol Euler: one in which we feel torn between our desire not to do and the knowledge that refusing will hurt others present?
Bruce Mowbray: I feel paralyzed.
Pema Pera: wonderful typos: "some ties"
Wol Euler: hehehe, yes
Bruce Mowbray: Freud: There are no "accidents."
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Pema Pera: ah, but feeling torn is only possible because we have freedom
Pema Pera: otherwise no reason to be torn
Pema Pera: and not feeling free is interesting too: not feeling the freedom that is there in some other way
Wol Euler: oh indeed, nonetheless we impose a non-freedom on ourselves in that situation
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: most non-freedom is self imposed, I think
Wol Euler nods
Agatha Macbeth: Probably, yes
Pema Pera: perhaps for good reasons: no value judgment
Pema Pera: but good to realize that

Uncle Fred is introduced . . .

Wol Euler: but some of that is socially useful. It may be better for the family for me to listen to Uncle Fred yet again, than if I get up and walk out
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Pema Pera: :-)
Wol Euler: I am free to restrain my own freedom
Eliza Madrigal: yes, to give it... in a sense
Agatha Macbeth: And free your own restraints
Pema Pera: but it is also an acknowledgement of the freedom that you have if you consciously restrain
Bruce Mowbray: Ethical confusion/dilemma -- a pause we take between choices? (according to Brock, yes.)
Eliza Madrigal: or maybe give 'of' it is more what I mean to say...
Qt Core: showing respect/love limitinf oneself freedom for someone else
Agatha Macbeth: Dave Brock?
Bruce Mowbray: Brock of "A Simple Hourney" here in SL.
Bruce Mowbray: Journhey.
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Bruce Mowbray: (sorry, Brock!)
Bruce Mowbray: Journey.
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps a pause to get a better view of our freedom.
Pema Pera: an addiction to exploring all the freedom you have may leave you less free . . . .
Bruce Mowbray: a better understand that we are free in a far larger sense than the dilemma might have suggested we were.
Pema Pera: yes!
--BELL--
Pema Pera: dilemmas always crie out for a third way
Pema Pera: and a fourth
Pema Pera: Hi Darren!
Agatha Macbeth: Sorry Bruce, did you mean Brock Palmer?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Darren :)

 . . . and already threatened with liquidation.

Wol Euler: well, I have to play devil's advocate here. Yes, we are totally free in the sense that I could murder Uncle Fred rather than listening to his boring tales
Agatha Macbeth: Hello daz
Wol Euler: but I'd have to be a psychopath to consider that a valid option
Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
Wol Euler: -o
Wol Euler: hello darren
Bruce Mowbray: Yo, Darren.
Qt Core: hi Darren
Bleu Oleander: hi darren
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey darren :)
Pema Pera: ah, but you are also free to choose between listening to U Fred out of a sense of duty or to listen to him as if for the first time, trying a new and fresh angle
Wol Euler: yes, which is the approach that I have come aorund to in my old age :)
Wol Euler: so yes, I suppose that is the ultimate freedom
Pema Pera: we are all young at heart -- given how much we still learn each day
Bleu Oleander: psychopath wouldn't necessarily go for that line of thinking
Pema Pera: perhaps not a charicature of a psychopath
Pema Pera: but even a psychopath is a human being with some kind of freedom
Bleu Oleander: true
Wol Euler: more than most perhaps
Wol Euler: (more freedom)
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps if the psychopath knew of his/her freedom they wouldn't need to murder the uncle...
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Bobby!
Eliza Madrigal: Hiya Bobby
Pema Pera: hi Bobby
Wol Euler: hello bobby
Wol Euler: and no, this is NOT a game :)

After I was puzzled at first, I realized that Wol was refering to Bobby's one-liner profile, asking whether this is a game :)

Bobby Couerblanc: hi
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Wol Euler: have you been here before?
Darren Islar: hi Bobby
Bobby Couerblanc: yes, I have
Bobby Couerblanc: twice, I think
Wol Euler: ok, justchecking :)
Bobby Couerblanc: :)
Wol Euler: I'll spare you the intro then
Bobby Couerblanc: Bruce faithfully invites me!
Pema Pera: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: We've been talking about freedom -- and. . . psychosis, among other things,
Bruce Mowbray: including switching grographies about.
Darren Islar: I wonder how much freedom psychopath will feel
Darren Islar: like schizofrenic people
Wol Euler nods
Wol Euler: I'd guess that they feel veyr constrained and frustrated, when I come to think about it
Darren Islar: especially schizofranic people
Wol Euler grins. We scared off Bobby :)

Bobby crashed, but would later return.

Bruce Mowbray: Lithium enables us to listen to their first-person accounts of the horrors of that disease.
Qt Core: little i think, and what they do is probably to mantain a minimum free space in their life
Darren Islar: right Bruce
Agatha Macbeth didn't even notice him
Eliza Madrigal: well, considering we don't have a real 'definition' of freedom in some ways... who is to say...
Bruce Mowbray: He might have crashed - since he's off-line now.
Darren Islar: and when schizofranic people are going on medication, they sometimes feel like there freedom is taken away
Bruce Mowbray: One of my very best friends in RL is doing 5 consecutive life sentences in a state prison.
Wol Euler: O.O
Darren Islar: wow
Eliza Madrigal: speaking of freedom... Hello slavetotheuniverse
Bruce Mowbray: He was my inmate clerk when I taught there 25 years ago - and we've kept in touch ever since.
Agatha Macbeth: Didn'tpay his income tax?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: He can teach me a great deal about freedom - because of where he's living - a medium security state prison.
Wol Euler: hello Slave
Pema Pera: Hi Slave!
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, STTU!
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Slave ;-)
Darren Islar: hi Slave
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hello veryone
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome back, dude!
Qt Core: hi sttu
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: thx

I thought Slave was here for the first time, so I told him about PaB.

Pema Pera: Slave, we get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://wiki.playasbeing.org/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: no its ok
Pema Pera: thanks!
Agatha Macbeth: He was here before Pem
Pema Pera: ah, didn't see him in the logs
Agatha Macbeth: Last night i think
Pema Pera: not in any of the posted logs yet
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: yes
Wol Euler: well, there is some backlog :)
Wol Euler coughs
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth grins
Pema Pera: welcome back Slave!
Agatha Macbeth: A good slave always returns ;-)
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: why do you blog these discussions?
Pema Pera: somewhere in the Universe
Pema Pera: oh, many reasons
Wol Euler: your name is appropriate to the discussion, actually. We're talking about freedom
Agatha Macbeth: So those members not present may read what was said
Pema Pera: one is that those of us who can't come to any one session can read about it later
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: well my name means that i am a slave to the physical laws
Wol Euler: that's the main reason

Yes, I agree with Wol, by now, but . . .

Pema Pera: another is to share with others on the internet not in SL
--BELL--
Pema Pera: another is for those who were here to reread if they like
Bruce Mowbray is thinking about Jonathan Living Seagull...
Bruce Mowbray: Livingston.
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: i understand
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: you where taslking about the nature of freedom
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, WB :)
Wol Euler: wb bobby
Darren Islar: wb
Bleu Oleander: bye all ..... take care
Pema Pera: wb Bobby!
Bobby Couerblanc: local internet issues
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: bye bob
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bleu, have fun
Bobby Couerblanc: bye
Darren Islar: I have been reading that book so many times as a child Bruce
Wol Euler: bye bleu
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks all :) Bye for now
Yakuzza Lethecus: wb bobby , bye all who leaving
Darren Islar: bye Eliza, Bleu
Qt Core: bye Bleu
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Liz :)

 . . . I also shared the original reason:

Pema Pera: but frankly, "reasons" often are produced after the fact. The original "reason" to blog these sessions occurred naturally on April 1 2008, the first day of Play as Being, simply because it was easier to just dump the chat log rather than trying to summarize it, as I did during the first couple sessions :-)
Wol Euler: :)
Qt Core: laziness will drive us everywhere ;-)
Pema Pera: :-)
Bobby Couerblanc: To summarize the sessions would be very difficult.
Bobby Couerblanc: I would think.
Darren Islar: depends
Pema Pera: time consuming, for sure -- much quicker to post and add a few comments
Wol Euler: the friday 1pm's are easy "silliness and onigokko"
Pema Pera: :-)
Agatha Macbeth nods
Yakuzza Lethecus: not only onigokko :)
Wol Euler: oh!
Wol Euler: we could do that now!
Wol Euler: pema can tell us what they are singing!
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Agatha Macbeth: Why not?
Darren Islar: NO!!!!!! :)
Wol Euler: oh dear
Agatha Macbeth: YES!!!!!!
Pema Pera: this reminds me of a discussion we had about summarizing Anna Karanina: "it's about Russia"
Agatha Macbeth: It is/
Agatha Macbeth: ?
Wol Euler: put yer aflacs on, my dears
Pema Pera: oni . . . .
Wol Euler giggles in anticipation
Pema Pera: go . . .
Pema Pera: ko . . .
Wol Euler: aflac
Pema Pera: aflac?

Expecting the onigokko dance, I was surprised to see a totally new (to me) dance: aflac.

Wol Euler laughs and laughs
Agatha Macbeth: Not Ben ;-)
Pema Pera: can I get one too, pretty please?
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps PaB should consider Cliff Notes. (?)
Wol Euler: anyone else?
Bruce Mowbray: STTU needs a tambourine too.
Agatha Macbeth: Who's Cliff Notes?
Bruce Mowbray: Cliff Notes (college cribbing pamphlets) for PaB's sessions.
Agatha Macbeth: Riiiight
Bruce Mowbray: just a joke -- never mind.
Bruce Mowbray: aflac
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: thx for the tamborine
Agatha Macbeth: Went over my head sorry
Wol Euler: so, pema, what were they singing?
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: uhh what just happened?
Bobby Couerblanc: cute
Pema Pera: cats and children are moving, let's move with them like they do :-)

Those were some of the words in the short Japanese song that sounded in the background while we were all wildly swinging our yellow tambourines.

Pema Pera: neko mo kodomo mo
Bobby Couerblanc: Is this Japanese?
Pema Pera: they didn't mention avatars though
Pema Pera: yes
Agatha Macbeth: I got the neko bit ;-)
Bobby Couerblanc: I lived in Japan as a child.
Pema Pera: neko = cat ; kodomo = child
Agatha Macbeth: Mmm
Wol Euler: huh
Agatha Macbeth enjoys the silence
Pema Pera: well, with all this excitement, I'll try to get some sleep :-)
Wol Euler: goodnight, pema, take care
Pema Pera: good seeing y'all
Wol Euler: nice to see you again
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: bye
Pema Pera: and thanks for the new song!
Agatha Macbeth: Sweet dreams Pem
Darren Islar: bye Pema
Qt Core: 'night Pema
Pema Pera: bfn

I left, so I will leave the rest of the log uncommented.

Wol Euler: hello calvino
Agatha Macbeth: Hiya cal
Bruce Mowbray: Give our love to the Danes!
Bobby Couerblanc: bye
Qt Core: Hi Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone
Bruce Mowbray: Yo, Caqlvino.
Bruce Mowbray: Cal.
Darren Islar: hi Cal :)
Calvino Rabeni: The seat's still warm :)
Agatha Macbeth: Where have i heard that before?
Wol Euler: I have to move on, my dears. A friend is singing live in a few minutes and I need to be there early to get a good seat :)
Agatha Macbeth: C ya
Wol Euler: take care, enjoy your weekends
Yakuzza Lethecus: where ?
Bruce Mowbray: Bye Wol!
Darren Islar: enjoy Wol :)
Wol Euler: actually, if anyone wants to come along?
Wol Euler: she sings and plays guitar, blues-ish, some of her own compositions
Wol Euler: very good
Qt Core: have fun Wol
Wol Euler: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Hedgetopia/163/21/502
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: well i asm going to i very tired just like yesterday heeh tommoriw i will come here a bit more early to contemplate with you about excistence
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Bruce Mowbray: Always soog to see you, STTU.
Bobby Couerblanc: bye
Bruce Mowbray: good.
Darren Islar: bye Yaku Greybeard
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: bye bye
--BELL--
Agatha Macbeth waves and slips out quietly
Darren Islar: bye Agatha
Bruce Mowbray wave Bye to Agga.
Bruce Mowbray: ?
Calvino Rabeni: ? ?
Darren Islar: there is a thing going on about symmetry
Bobby Couerblanc: ?
Qt Core: :) ty
Calvino Rabeni: So can someone sum up the basics of the last hour of contrmplative dialogue?
Darren Islar: :)
Calvino Rabeni: *contemplative
Calvino Rabeni: Oops - I left my scribe hat on - which is invisible by the way
Qt Core: uniqueness of time, geography and then freedom
Calvino Rabeni: I've been doing the scribe work - and lost track of time
Bruce Mowbray: don't forget psychosis!
Calvino Rabeni: Of course, you all get good "mention" there :)
Bobby Couerblanc: That's the last thing I saw, a mention of psychotic
Qt Core: as a pathological case of freedom
Bruce Mowbray: In the context of "freedom" - someone questioned whether schizophrenics had a sense of increased or decreased fr4eedom.
Calvino Rabeni: I guess it could be - but sometimes one might get stuck?
Calvino Rabeni: Why would it be either or?
Bruce Mowbray: They can now tell their own 1st-person stories -- thanks to anti-psychotic drugs.
Calvino Rabeni: My psychotic friends have hair-raising tales of both extremes
Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, is there a pro-psychotic drug, so I can have my own 1st-person stories :)
Darren Islar: it was more like talking about freedom and asking ourselves the question how much freedom schizofrenic people and psychopath feel freedom
Darren Islar: *- freedom
Calvino Rabeni: I've heard stories from - soaring through the universe to - getting stuck for eternity inside a pixel on the computer screen
Darren Islar: that's the part I got :)
Bruce Mowbray: ". . . just another word for nithing left to lose?"
Calvino Rabeni: It's hard to imagine a greater dynamic range
Bobby Couerblanc: I have to go...
Darren Islar: bye Bobby
Qt Core: Bye Bobby
Bobby Couerblanc: Thanks for the invite Bruce.
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- Bobby - Have a fine weekend.
Darren Islar: I guess that is why we wondered
Bruce Mowbray: The other day, Calvino, you mentioned "exposure therapy"....
Bruce Mowbray: something about de-sentization through repeated contact with the feared object or action. . .
Bruce Mowbray: Remember that?
Calvino Rabeni: I guess I'm curious about the fact that "psychosis" is sometimes observed and sometimes lived in unawarely
Calvino Rabeni: if you get what I mean
Calvino Rabeni: People having visions and either knowing them as visions, or taking them as reality
Bruce Mowbray: Yes -- that's partly what I'm drive toward now.
Darren Islar: hallucinations or visions?
Bruce Mowbray: What was acceptable in one age (ghosts, witches) -- would in another age be seen as "crazy."
Bruce Mowbray: But I was going toward the idea of "addiction"
Calvino Rabeni: I don't think I mentioned a term like "exposure therapy" but it might have been about healing trauma through mindful experiencing
Calvino Rabeni: I wouldn't call that desensitization exactly
Darren Islar: that is something quite different
Bruce Mowbray: Whay does repeated exposure to one thing addict some people while it repulses others?
Calvino Rabeni: because it actually increases sensitivity
Bruce Mowbray: Someone else called it "exposure" therapy. . .
Bruce Mowbray: But you were here.
Calvino Rabeni: Addiction - well it has a lot to do about whether the experience hurts people or constructs suffering
Calvino Rabeni: if so, it leads to more addiction
Calvino Rabeni: if not, it heals
Darren Islar: exposure therapy is used for exposure to things you fear
Darren Islar: that is about behaviour
Bruce Mowbray: Pornography, for example, is an addiction for some and a repulsion for others.
Calvino Rabeni: The repulsion might be resisting an addiction
Darren Islar: mindful experiencing is the opposite
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: I can't quote - but studies have shown I think, it's easier to modify behavior than the inner experiences
Darren Islar: but I don't know the discussion, and the term exposure therapy is a term from pshochology
Calvino Rabeni: so you can get the phobic on a plane, but they still feel anxiety
Darren Islar: bye QT
Bruce Mowbray: "inner experiences" meaning thoughts. . .?
Qt Core: time to go, bye all and have fun!
Bruce Mowbray: Bye Qt. Have a good weekend.
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: and feelings, and judgments, and .fantasies, etc.
Darren Islar: and even ghings we can't mention
Darren Islar: can't put our finger on, I should say
Darren Islar: oops
Bruce Mowbray: np.
Bruce Mowbray: I see myself as a multiple-person(s).
Calvino Rabeni: ::; *Especially* those unmentionales, Darren :)
Bruce Mowbray: I am not a disassociative (not diagnosed).
Calvino Rabeni: *unmentionables
Bruce Mowbray: There are parts of my that seem to have "compulsions" that other parts of me do not have, etc.
Bruce Mowbray: me.
Bruce Mowbray: For many years, my "goal" has been to integrate the parts without denying any of them -- or denying any of them access to the other parts.
Darren Islar: :) Cal
Calvino Rabeni: For discussing these different states - sometimes I might call them "anomalies" if they are unusual, but never "abnormalities"
Darren Islar: can you give an example Bruce, I mean to get an idea by what you mean with parts?
Bruce Mowbray: Much more comfortable and stable that having civil wars going on inside me - as I seemed to haved before all of "us" could play in the same band, as it were.
Bruce Mowbray: The sexual part of me (in my mind) has very different energies than some of the other parts of me.
Bruce Mowbray: I once found and named 12 different parts of myself.
Bruce Mowbray: That got reduced to nine.
Calvino Rabeni: That's pretty thorough "voice work" Bruce
Darren Islar: I think having different parts is essential
Bruce Mowbray: Through Buddhist practice, I've been able to "be" with some of the more troubling ones.
Calvino Rabeni: Personally, I don't think I have a "sexual part"
Bruce Mowbray: really?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, every part of me is sexual :)
Bruce Mowbray: Well, you're making my point, actually, Cal.
Bruce Mowbray: You have integrated that energy into your whole being.
Calvino Rabeni: Sounds good :)
Bruce Mowbray: yes. I have also experienced that --
Darren Islar: sexual energy is a very important drive in different disguises
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Bruce Mowbray: but not until I honored the sexual part thoroughly.
Calvino Rabeni: The force through the green fuse, etc.
Bruce Mowbray: I feel powerful erotic energy in Nature - during storms - in beautiful scenery -- etc.
Calvino Rabeni: Oh, honouring is one of the most powerful things we can do
Bruce Mowbray: and this is not sexual, per se -- But it is erotic.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Cal -- and that's what I meant when I said "honoring" all the different parts.
Bruce Mowbray: as members of one 'symphony' that is "me."
Darren Islar: it depends on the definition of sexual
Bruce Mowbray: of course - - -
Darren Islar: or sexuality
Bruce Mowbray: Remember that book, Erogonous Zones ?
Darren Islar: which suggest a broader spectrum
Darren Islar: no
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, well, the definition is to a large degree, open to choosing
Darren Islar: but important to define
Bruce Mowbray: yes, there are semantic problems here -- probably emerging out of a culture that's essential a "wasteland" when it comes to accepting sexual energy.
Darren Islar: as an energy it is different then the definition of sex
Bruce Mowbray: yes, but terms like "gender identity" are very difficult because people mean different things when they use those terms.
Darren Islar: I'm afraid I'm too tired
Darren Islar: need to go
Darren Islar: and leave the discussion to you two
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, good to see you Darren
Darren Islar: will read the log :)
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- Bye, Darren.
Bruce Mowbray: Do you know where Darren is from - Europe?
Bruce Mowbray: OK.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is late there.
Bruce Mowbray: yep. almost 11 p.m.
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: Near midnight in germany, 1am in Finland, i'm not sure how many zones Europe has
Bruce Mowbray: There's going to be a dharms talk at Kannonji at the top of the hour. . .
Bruce Mowbray: thinking I might slip on over there to catch that.
Bruce Mowbray: But -- did you have something you wishes to talk about here, first?
Bruce Mowbray: I could happily change my plan.
Bruce Mowbray: 3PM Paul Dochong Lynch TALK: As part of our continuing efforts to bring very real interactions with leaders in the real-world Buddhist community, we happily invite you to today's 3PM talk with Paul Dochong Lynch, Guiding Teacher of the Five Mountain Order of Korean Zen. Dochong was a student of the late Zen master Seung Sahn and received inka (permission to teach) in his lineage from Ji Bong, one of Seung Sahn's Dharma heirs. So please join us at 3PM for this great opportunity to ask whatever you feel needs
Calvino Rabeni: It depends on if the energy is there for it ... there's plenty of time
Bruce Mowbray: OK.
Calvino Rabeni: I've been reading the logs in order to do my scribe role
Bruce Mowbray: I do not understand what a "scribe" does here.
Calvino Rabeni: Have you read that part of the site?
Calvino Rabeni: OK, no ...
Bruce Mowbray: not yet.
Calvino Rabeni: It is a review and reflection function, and also perhaps, a way to create condensed views of the activities that take place here in the pavilion.
Calvino Rabeni: Just a sec.
Bruce Mowbray: ok.
Calvino Rabeni: The chat logs are kind of a memory aid, and a raw material
Calvino Rabeni: for additional reflective contemplation
Bruce Mowbray: oh yes -- I've been reading the chat logs every day. . .
Calvino Rabeni: or at least there are some possibilities there
Bruce Mowbray: but what doesw a scribe do?
Calvino Rabeni: there is a "scribe" for every 3-day period per month
Bruce Mowbray: does.
Bruce Mowbray: yes. . . ?
Bruce Mowbray: you edit the logs?
Calvino Rabeni: I for instance read the 12 or so logs from the 10th to the 12th
Calvino Rabeni: the scribes have no prescribed form of what they d
Calvino Rabeni: o other than to read and give commentary
Calvino Rabeni: hopefully in a variety of ways that can bring new perspectives
Bruce Mowbray: where are such commentaries offered, then?
Calvino Rabeni: when you read the logs of sessions you were in, it might give new thoughts about what was actually going on
Calvino Rabeni: I'll give you a link.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I do that regularly - -
Bruce Mowbray: ok -- for the link.
Calvino Rabeni: This one is the one I'm working on
Calvino Rabeni: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Scribe_Project/2010/07/10_-_12
Calvino Rabeni: And you atended a variety of those sessions
Calvino Rabeni: if you browse up from that page you can find all the scribe documents
Bruce Mowbray: I am checking it out now. . .
Calvino Rabeni: That one is under construction
Calvino Rabeni: Actually I try to do it a little differently each time
Calvino Rabeni: and look at the events through different lenses
Calvino Rabeni: or in relationship to different themes
Calvino Rabeni: perhaps it is because I have a need for novelty :)
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: The different scribes bring different ways and qualities
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. This is all new to me.
Calvino Rabeni: There's a lot of stuff on that wiki
Bruce Mowbray: I see that there are no "scribe projects" posted for this month yet.
Calvino Rabeni: Try again
Bruce Mowbray: Although most of the chat sessions are posted.
Bruce Mowbray: Some literally within minutes of the end of that session.
Calvino Rabeni: There is one, it is that link I sent you just earlier - can you see it?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the scribe reviews have to wait for the sesions to be posted
Bruce Mowbray: I had to log in - in order to see it. . . Let me try again. Just a sec....
Calvino Rabeni: It's a litle like "The New Yorker" compared to the "New York Times"
Bruce Mowbray: Oh YES! There it is.
Calvino Rabeni: the weekly gives a more considered and distanced perspective on recent events
Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- THIS will be wonderful reading, Cal!
Bruce Mowbray: What an amazing place this is -- what an amazing concept.
Bruce Mowbray: With Pema's new chapter and all of the scribe material, I really have my hands full now!
Bruce Mowbray: It's also dinner time here in Ohio -- and unlike Bruce, his meta-biological avatar needs to eat.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: Good talking to you Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: I need an infusion of Nature now, more than food :)
Bruce Mowbray: Always good to talk with you, Calvino.
Bruce Mowbray: See you again soon, I hope.
Bruce Mowbray: bye for now.
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Bruce :)