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PlayAsBeing Wiki > Chat Logs > 2010 > 12 > 2010.12.08 19:00 - Theme Session: Playing with Space

2010.12.08 19:00 - Theme Session: Playing with Space

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The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

...Backstage....

stevenaia Michinaga: I better look
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh I just realized that all I have to do is double click on the notecard and it goes into the chat box
Aphrodite Macbain: That way I don't have to give everyone my notecard
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Eliza Madrigal: Hi guys, not here yet... just sitting myself down brb
Aphrodite Macbain: I think it was 10 minutes per discussion - roughly
stevenaia Michinaga: nice hat
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Eliza
Aphrodite Macbain: cool hat - you little elf
stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm it says 5 minute presentation, 10 minute discussion
stevenaia Michinaga: then 13 minutes at the end
stevenaia Michinaga: for general discussion
stevenaia Michinaga: general
stevenaia Michinaga: can you past all that in 5 minutes?
Aphrodite Macbain: right. That's what I remember. We can be flexible of course. Each of the presenters an call a close to each discussion and then introduce the following presenter
stevenaia Michinaga: paste
stevenaia Michinaga: okies
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. Just double click. People have 5-8 minutes to read the text
Aphrodite Macbain: read
Aphrodite Macbain: It's snowing. Did you do that Eliza?
stevenaia Michinaga: I will be a bit slower, i.e., less text, should
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, big flakes, nice I should have dressed warmer
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi nice people
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) all that skin!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello wonderful lady
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: epp lag
Aphrodite Macbain: we're just reviewing the process.
SophiaSharon Larnia: pretty lag though
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: epp?
SophiaSharon Larnia: eep
Aphrodite Macbain: oops
stevenaia Michinaga: should we sit together?
Aphrodite Macbain: makes sense
stevenaia Michinaga: before you get too comfortable Sharon
stevenaia Michinaga: don;t know how I floated
SophiaSharon Larnia: stand up :) and re sit
Aphrodite Macbain: Did you get that Eliza?
SophiaSharon Larnia: whao

... Guests Arrive

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Sinjun :)
Sinjun Hamelin: Hi...
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Sinjun. welcome
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Tess
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Tess
Sinjun Hamelin: Is this the Museum of Sacred Art?
Tess Aristocrat: hello ã‹¡
Aphrodite Macbain: No, that's nearby
SophiaSharon Larnia: thats the brick building next door Sinjun
stevenaia Michinaga: no that is the building to my left
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: This is a discussion group Tess-
Sinjun Hamelin: Ah.....but the scenery here is lovely...smiles...
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles back
Sinjun Hamelin: Am i intruding?
stevenaia Michinaga: Shall I begin?
Aphrodite Macbain: not at all
SophiaSharon Larnia: not at all
stevenaia Michinaga: no please stay
Sinjun Hamelin: I shall sit quietly..
Aphrodite Macbain: Let's give it another minute
Eliza Madrigal: Hi back :)
stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes it is very quiet on Wednesdays
Aphrodite Macbain: we are going to do 3 presentations on the subject of space and then discuss
Aphrodite Macbain: You are welcome to participate
stevenaia Michinaga: we will have a discussion after each of the 3 presentations

Huntress Selenium: Hi Tess!
Huntress Selenium: You got here first!
stevenaia Michinaga: welcome Huntress
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Huntress!
stevenaia Michinaga: Huntress
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Huntress
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Eden
Tess Aristocrat: hey hey : )
Huntress Selenium: Hi Aphrodite.! Yay! you got out of the log out loop
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Eden
stevenaia Michinaga: if you are new tonight, we record theses session and post them on the groups Wiki
Huntress Selenium: Hi Eden
stevenaia Michinaga: is that oke?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes thank goodness. I am free to be me
Huntress Selenium: Hi Sinjun, Eliza, steve, sophia
Tess Aristocrat: ã‹¡
Aphrodite Macbain: free
SophiaSharon Larnia: :D
Eden Haiku: Hello everyone :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Tonight's theme... Playing with Space
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Huntress, Tess, Sinjun, Eden, Sharon, Steve, and Aph :)
stevenaia Michinaga: he Eden
Huntress Selenium: yikes! Is that snow
Tess Aristocrat: hello ã‹¡

Aphrodite Macbain: If you need a note card I'll give you one but I hope posting in chat will work

stevenaia Michinaga: Space had 1400+ hits on a search of the PaB Wiki, Seem the aspects of space from to topics we are presenting tonight to the International "Space" station. I will post some of those links in the log :)
stevenaia Michinaga: PaB= Play As Being, the groups name

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Eos
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Steve
Eliza Madrigal: thanks, Steve

stevenaia Michinaga: This isn't a discussion with limits or definition that will resolve questions. Tonight

we hope to present three aspects of the theme:
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Looks like we have critical mass Steve

stevenaia Michinaga:

Presentation 1: Aphrodite will present "Personal and Interpersonal space" (space as a concept)

SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
stevenaia Michinaga:

Presentation 2: Stevenaia: Space Defined (Emptiness Contained)\

Eos Amaterasu: ((((!))))
Huntress Selenium: Tess, ur a cloud to me
stevenaia Michinaga:

Presentation 3: SophiaSharon: Outer space

Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: these will be short 5 minute presentations
Aphrodite Macbain: shall I begin?
stevenaia Michinaga: followed by 10 minute conversations
stevenaia Michinaga: then the next presenter will begin
Aphrodite Macbain: This will all be recorded
stevenaia Michinaga: and there will be a longer comment period after that
stevenaia Michinaga: Aphrodite, the floor is yours......
Aphrodite Macbain: OK let's hope this works...
stevenaia Michinaga: :)

Aphrodite Macbain: Arg. Anyone know how to get my text into he cha box.
Aphrodite Macbain: chat
stevenaia Michinaga: Paste it in smaller sections
Aphrodite Macbain: Ok
Sinjun Hamelin: Copy and paste...
Sinjun Hamelin: into the chat box...

Aphrodite Macbain:

TWO TYPES OF SPACE Perhaps there are two main categories of space:

1. Real physical space defined by real, measurable boundaries and mathematical principles, perceived by our 5 senses and understood by our rational brain.

2. Conceptual, abstract
Aphrodite Macbain: space created, defined and felt by our imagination and emotions. They are metaphors for states of being. There are probably also abstract BOUNDARIES that encircle and divide those spaces that are created and felt in our imagination and emotions

Q. ARE THERE ANY OTHER, MORE USEFUL MAIN CATEGORIES OF SPACE?
Huntress Selenium: Is it appropriate to answer that question now?
Huntress Selenium: I have an idea...

Aphrodite Macbain: I believe both Stevenaia and SophiaSharon will address some real, measurable aspects of space while I will briefly explore certain conceptual, abstract aspects of space metaphors for states of being. Abstract, conceptual space is not an exact science

Aphrodite Macbain: no. pleas wait till later
Huntress Selenium: Hi Freud!
Aphrodite Macbain: I will be looking at two types of conceptual space that are interrelated:

1. Interpersonal space.

2. Interior, personal space.
INTERPERSONAL SPACE Some definitions of interpersonal space I found in Google:

Aphrodite Macbain:

1. Interpersonal space is One that is defined and communicated by words and understood by others according to their own knowledge and experience.

2. Interpersonal space is zone around individuals which they reserve for themselves. Personal space, as opposed to intimate space, is usually that reserved for a normal conversational voice and for friendly interaction. The extent of a personal space around an individual is reckoned to be 1-1.5m for an Anglo-Saxon but closer contact may be acceptable in other cultures.
Aphrodite Macbain:

3. Personal space is the region surrounding a person which they regard as psychologically theirs. Invasion of personal space often leads to discomfort, anger, or anxiety on the part of the victim. The notion of personal space comes from Edward . Hall, whose ideas were influenced by Heini Hediger's studies of behavior of zoo animals.
Aphrodite Macbain:

4. The amygdala in our brain is suspected of processing people's strong reactions to personal space violations since these are absent in those in which it is damaged and it is activated when people are physically close.

Aphrodite Macbain:

Interpersonal space is the space that defines how we relate to ourselves and to each other â€“ either personally or intimately. It comes between our INTERIOR space filled with emotions, beliefs, attitudes, our egos and our ids, and the INTERIOR spaces others filled with the same elements but which differ in character.

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Cal
Aphrodite Macbain:

WHAT ARE THE CHARACTERISTICS OF INTERPERSONAL SPACE? This interpersonal space between two beings can be a highly charged space (electric with emotion) or a neutral space of calm, a space for thoughtful rational discussion
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain:

Interpersonal space is flexible, ever changing and provisional, depending on the changing nature of the interior space of each of the individuals as well as the changing nature of the RL space they find themselves. (Context is everything!)

Sometimes when those personal conceptual spaces rub up against each other they create distress (e.g. claustrophobia) or they create pleasure (affectionate, cuddling space) depending on the nature of the interior space of each of those two entities.

Sinjun Hamelin: sorry...
SophiaSharon Larnia smiles
Aphrodite Macbain:

On the other hand, sometimes this interpersonal space between people is considered too wide and distant (for instant those who are agoraphobic) or those who are needy and want attention (you seem so distant to me) .

Huntress Selenium: Hi Riddle

Aphrodite Macbain: What is the spatial information in the idioms "back off!" or Give me some space, asked Calvino last week.

Riddle Sideways whispers hi, sorry late

Aphrodite Macbain:

HOW IS THIS CONCEPTUAL INTERPERSONAL SPACE BETWEEN PEOPLE PERCEIVED, UNDERSTOOD OR MEASURED? WHAT ARE ITS QUALITIES?
Aphrodite Macbain:

1. Does it have to do with time? Give me more space = Give me more time?

2. Does it have to do with respect and understanding? Back off = Be patient; give me more respect?
Aphrodite Macbain:

3. Does it have to do with emotional bonds or shared beliefs? I feel so close to you OR You are being so distant these days

4. How much do these statements have to do with REAL physical space?

SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm

Aphrodite Macbain: Sometimes the real and perceived spaces affect each other, interrelate, and shape the nature of the relationship: Not surprisingly, the (physical) distance is least between couples, followed by family and friends, and greatest between strangers. varies culturally, and that Anglo-Saxons tend to be more distant from their fellows than, say, Latins.
Aphrodite Macbain:

NOW SOME BRIEF COMMENTS ABOUT INTERIOR OR INNER SPACE “ THE FINAL FRONTIER.
Aphrodite Macbain:

WHERE IS THIS INNER SPACE LOCATED? HOW IS IT CONTAINED? HOW IS IT DIVIDED? WHAT IS IT? CAN WE HAVE INNER SPACE? There are no definitions for it in Google.
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps our inner space can be found in our thoughts, our dreams our memories, our consciousness. But is it space at all?
Ewan Bonham: Hi Folks..
Aphrodite Macbain: 'Personal boundaries that contain and divide personal space include physical, mental, and spiritual boundaries'- (for physical boundaries see proxemics). 'Mental boundaries pertain to beliefs, emotion, and intuition...Spiritual boundaries pertain to self

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi :)

Aphrodite Macbain: self-esteem sense of identity'. Together they constitute "psychological boundaries

Ewan Bonham: Is that the topic...Boundaries?
SophiaSharon Larnia: "Playing with Space"

Aphrodite Macbain: I would imagine that by meditating on our inner, personal space, we might seek to dissolve those internal boundaries of being and come to a space that is centered and enduring.

Huntress Selenium: hi Zaid

Aphrodite Macbain: From there we can attempt to expand that inner central space - outwards beyond our bodies into the world around us,

Huntress Selenium: Ewan, concepts of space

SophiaSharon Larnia: interesting Aphrodite :)

Aphrodite Macbain: Wrap it around everything that fills real space and expand our space out into the universe where all become united into one.

Ewan Bonham: TY'

Aphrodite Macbain: Or am I really spaced out?
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Aphrodite Macbain: THE END

Discussion begins:

SophiaSharon Larnia: claps :D
Huntress Selenium: omg! Aphrodite, you didn't just say that?
Tess Aristocrat: not at all, you're being efficient
Huntress Selenium: claps
Aphrodite Macbain: Sorry that ook forever.
Huntress Selenium: oh, not at all, Aphrodite
Eden Haiku: Thank you Aphrodite :)
Huntress Selenium: It ran less than Rhiannon's or Simulat's
Tess Aristocrat: and becoming one with everything
Aphrodite Macbain: I thought I was going to be able to past that in one shot
Huntress Selenium: I think what is interesting is the reality of 'internal' space, like in dreams
Aphrodite Macbain: So, maybe we only have about a minute's worth of discussion before Steve presents
SophiaSharon Larnia: what do you think creates that space then, thoughts, emotions, preconceived notions about the world?
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Huntress?
Tess Aristocrat: that space is probably from long ago instincts that are still alive and kicking today
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't know Sophia. What d you think?
Huntress Selenium: Aphrodite, yes, in one sense it isn't 'real,' meaning physical, but you inhabit it, you move in it and it affects you
Aphrodite Macbain: Is it space at all? Is the metaphor useful?
SophiaSharon Larnia: if it is, then it would a manufactured illusion :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: maybe
Eliza Madrigal: dream space created, sure
Huntress Selenium: Aphrodite, well, if we limit 'space' to physical, then no, but it is a meaningful metaphor
Aphrodite Macbain grins at Huntress- exactly
Ewan Bonham: Is it possible, that maybe the space is always within us and we just become aware of it when we give it focus?
Sinjun Hamelin: So...what do you consider the "space" in SL?
Aphrodite Macbain: what is the nature of that space Ewan?
Huntress Selenium: oh, Sinjun, awesome! I was just wondering about our space here in SL
Ewan Bonham: I feel it as as a form of expansive love...
Aphrodite Macbain: I am only talking about abstract, metaphorical space
Aphrodite Macbain: of which there is plenty in SL
Sinjun Hamelin: exactly...
Aphrodite Macbain: space to speak, explore, play
SophiaSharon Larnia: Sl is abstract and metaphorical in a way, at least i could say it is :)
Huntress Selenium: Well, even though you look at SL through a looking glass, you are projected here; so it shares some reality with dream space, internal space
Sinjun Hamelin: and...unconstrained by real life...
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
--BELL--

Tess Aristocrat: thanks you for the discussion, must go.. ;)
Huntress Selenium: tc Tess
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! tess
Ewan Bonham: Bye, Tess
Aphrodite Macbain: Zaid, please join us

Eliza Madrigal: appreciate your question re the relation between space and 'respect' as well Aph ... wonderful considerations....
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Eliza. II think we should move on
Huntress Selenium: Well, respect plays a role in interpersonal space; since taking kung fu, i don't feel comfortable in rl with strangers unless they're 6 feet away
Aphrodite Macbain: since I went way over my 5 minute limit
Huntress Selenium: Unless I'm embracing them, of course
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: there's that comfortable distance thing again
SophiaSharon Larnia: Steve said he'll brb, has to relog
SophiaSharon Larnia: lag
Aphrodite Macbain: a strange thing has happened. I've lost my inventory
Huntress Selenium: omg, Aphrodite
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh Its moved
Huntress Selenium: that has to be bandwidth or memory
Calvino Rabeni: But also as you study kung fu, the "space" around you becomes a lot more structured and nuanced
Calvino Rabeni: its not the blank cube of mathematics
Calvino Rabeni: but has real structure to it
Huntress Selenium: Well, "structured," perhaps; you look for different clues
SophiaSharon Larnia: can you say more Cal?
Huntress Selenium: And you use your body differently, so you occupy your space differently
Sinjun Hamelin: Apologies...I am on satellite..and it is snowing here in Western Maryland...

I logged off and returned so my typing appears.......

stevenaia Michinaga: sorry, can you see my text?
SophiaSharon Larnia: now I can
Eliza Madrigal: yes Steve
Huntress Selenium: yes, ur in chat range now, steve
Eden Haiku: yes Steve :)

Huntress Selenium: This has been so fascinating, i didn't notice the snow was gone

Huntress Selenium sighs in relief as her breath returns to normal

My text ran into Cal's so I separated the threads

Calvino Rabeni: well there are three fundamental differences to start - UP and DOWN are the most different, then FORWARD and BACKWARD are pretty different, then LEFT and RIGHT are just a little different
Calvino Rabeni: that's somatic space
Calvino Rabeni: if you live in a gravity well
Calvino Rabeni: I guaranteed you feel quite different about those directions
Calvino Rabeni: in space

Calvino Rabeni: Its a characteristic of that structure of space, that your shoes don't go on top of the head (and that the head is where it is, on the body)

stevenaia Michinaga: thanks, I found some words that helps me understand space better

From the Tao Te Ching Emptiness (Space)
We put thirty spokes together and call it a wheel;

But it is on the space where there is nothing that the usefulness of the wheel depends.

We turn clay to make a vessel;

But it is on the space where there is nothing that the usefulness of the vessel depends.
We pierce doors and windows to make a house;
And it is on these spaces where there is nothing that the usefulness of the house depends.
Therefore just as we take advantage of what is, we should recognize the usefulness of what is not.

and... From the Buddhist Shunyata philosophy of "form is emptiness, emptiness is form."

stevenaia Michinaga: I would like to discuss space more from a living and moving perspective, space as a defined container and what it contains. How it is defined, How is moves us and how we move through it.
stevenaia Michinaga: In my RL place I work with space by containing it.
stevenaia Michinaga: Space is a defined property of emptiness, defined by boundaries, such as the walls of a room and enclose a space, or these columns of the playgota that somehow defines the space we are seated in be it SL or RL.
stevenaia Michinaga: If we can all move to "mouselook" (view from inside your avatar) and look up from our vantage point sitting here in the playgota, we see the roofs above us, each of us with our individual perspective of the surrounding enclosure which defines the space, with no walls around us and a big hole in the ceiling above, space is still defined.
stevenaia Michinaga: I feel this is a special and unique space, this space provides for hours and hours of conversation that has its own shape. It can lift my spirits and add to the conversation, a space for friends to meet. it could be anywhere but we choose here as it was provided for us (by Storm).
stevenaia Michinaga: Some newcomers stay outside the columns of our little Playgota, my example of "SPACE" for this session. Then , when invited or feel comfortable enough, they join us in our space.
stevenaia Michinaga: Our little space here, open as it may appear also has defined entrances. Anyone entering through those (or not) transforms the space for each of us here, those moving and those sitting.
stevenaia Michinaga: People present in the space usually cause an outburst of "Hellos and welcoming conversation. The space is active, warm. When we say "love is in the air", it is usually in proximity to something, space defined by two or more people.
stevenaia Michinaga: I see this as wonderful qualities of space we should be aware of, appreciate, and understand its influence on us so we can enjoy these aspects of space and how it reflects on ourselves.
stevenaia Michinaga: The only way to understand space is to be with space, spend time with it, move through it and let it move though you. I have a deep emotional affinity for how space can transform the spirit, That is what I wanted to share with you tonight.
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
stevenaia Michinaga: Seek good space, enjoy it, work with it, Move through it. Walk quickly through space that is heavy and depresses the spirit

Aphrodite Macbain: spoken like a true architect
SophiaSharon Larnia: indeed!!
stevenaia Michinaga: I will post a few links to conversations of "Space" that have taken place here over the years, but feel free to do your own search of the Wiki
Eden Haiku: Wonderful Steve :)
Eliza Madrigal: lovely, Steve. Thanks *so*!
stevenaia Michinaga: grins
Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you steve. smoothly done
stevenaia Michinaga: that is really all I have to say, the rest of the session is yours
Aphrodite Macbain: Questions? Comments?
Eden Haiku: So nice that you talked about our "space" here, in this pavilion. Beautiful vision of it!
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: We have about 8 minutes before Sophia does her presentation
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, space offers its own irony
Eliza Madrigal: lingering in Steve's appreciative space...
Sinjun Hamelin: SL is an excellent place to create space that calms ....a reaction to the spaces in rl that are not.
Eliza Madrigal: mmm...nods
Aphrodite Macbain: Sophia? you were saying?
SophiaSharon Larnia: I can wait until later, we can talk about the interpersonal aspects :) if thats ok?
Aphrodite Macbain: sure
stevenaia Michinaga: Oh.. here is a link for the more philosophical
Eden Haiku: Also the emptiness making the wheel turn...and windows and doors making a house useful. Great examples!
stevenaia Michinaga: http://www.unrestrictedphilosophy.com/
Aphrodite Macbain: lovely metaphors
stevenaia Michinaga: we can thank the great Taoist of the past for that
SophiaSharon Larnia: so things define an emptiness, in a way, the way im seeing it right now
SophiaSharon Larnia: the lack of a thing
Aphrodite Macbain: things?
SophiaSharon Larnia: ? but is emptiness a lack? hmm
Aphrodite Macbain: no- not a holy space for instance
stevenaia Michinaga: I so love Luci's "Universe Cube" near the "Art Dome" across the way.... is it space defined by Outer Space
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Huntress Selenium: Well, its like in kung fu, again; you have to learn to see the void and then fill it
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose it could all be inner space at the molecular level
Huntress Selenium: You create a void, and then let your opponent fall into it
Aphrodite Macbain: level
Huntress Selenium: Seeing spaces is part of that training
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: an open space - a trap
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: Sophia- would you like to give your presentation?
stevenaia Michinaga: what I love about space is it can be many things at once
Aphrodite Macbain: It can be filled with many things
stevenaia Michinaga: ...a nd nothing
Riddle Sideways: and the spaces between chat lines

SophiaSharon Larnia begins:

SophiaSharon Larnia: It'll be short I promise :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: I found a video on the Discovery Channel that made me STOP one day. :) "Time: Vastness of Time" (http://science.discovery.com/videos/time-vastness-of-time.html) by theoretical physicist Michio Kaku.
SophiaSharon Larnia: I'll summarize it quickly. He used an example of imagining that 1 millimeter = 1 earth year. If you go backwards in time to the year 1947 (when the speaker was born), you go back 5.8 centimeters. If you go back to the Roman conquest of England in 43 AD - you go back 195 centimeters.

SophiaSharon Larnia:

To measure out the whole of earth time (4.6 billion years) .... you'll go about 2500 miles. According to calculations, at the speed of light, it would take you 0.018.... seconds to reach the distance of the Earth's age. The universe is thought to be 13,750,000,000 light years wide but is expanding at a rate where light may never reach the edge (expanding faster than light?).

That's what's meant when it's said that outer, physical 'space' could be infinite. Use any sort of measurement you like (instead of 1 millimeter = 1 mile), you may never reach the edge of physical space, if there is one, if it doesn't just curve around. :) What in the World does This mean? This means to me that it is Awesome and Unknowable to my everyday experience. We already know that, what else does it mean? Does an unknowable concept such as this allow the canceling it out of the equation? Does it matter?

Aphrodite Macbain wonders how Sophia did that
SophiaSharon Larnia: sorry about the spacing
Eliza Madrigal: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: im a visual learner, I need to see it
SophiaSharon Larnia: tactile
Aphrodite Macbain: So do I but not 3 rows at a time...
stevenaia Michinaga: :0
Aphrodite Macbain: I feel time and space are very interconnected
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods, at first i thought it was an apple and oranges connection
Aphrodite Macbain: Can you have time w/o space and vice versa?
Riddle Sideways: yes
Ewan Bonham: Hard to conceive of one without the other..
Ewan Bonham: Attempt to define either alone..:)
stevenaia Michinaga: is there space w/o movement (time)?
stevenaia Michinaga: time
Huntress Selenium: Well, they are integrated in modern physics
Huntress Selenium: And right, steve, space is defined by movement, which is a temporal process
Ewan Bonham: nods
SophiaSharon Larnia: all I really know is how long several miles feel when i walk them
Huntress Selenium: Sophia, well that's a matter of kinesthetic and propriocepticx; back to personal space
SophiaSharon Larnia: at least with the mind im talking from now
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: Can anyone think of other main TYPES of space other than physical and metaphorical space?
Aphrodite Macbain: TYPOS OF SPACE
SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Huntress Selenium: Aphrodite, well, how expansive a concept is 'metaphorical space?'
stevenaia Michinaga: I got ya covered on that one
Huntress Selenium: Dream space, interpersonal space, aren't all that metaphorical
Eos Amaterasu: awareness
Aphrodite Macbain: pretty expansive. It accounts of all those immeasurable
Huntress Selenium: You inhabit them and they are real kinesthetically and proprioceptically
Eliza Madrigal: :) Eos
SophiaSharon Larnia: how metaphorical is 'physical' space
stevenaia Michinaga: how physical is it?
SophiaSharon Larnia: awareness
Aphrodite Macbain: It is not
Eos Amaterasu: how physical is physical without awareness
Aphrodite Macbain: There is measurable space and there is conceptual space
SophiaSharon Larnia: gulps
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I wouldn't use the word physical
Aphrodite Macbain: But there is a distance between
Aphrodite Macbain: in physical space
Riddle Sideways: in chapter 10 of the time book we explored for 2 weeks only the time, then only the space and then only the awareness
Riddle Sideways: without the others
Aphrodite Macbain: a measurable distance
Aphrodite Macbain: - something that fits within the laws of mathematics
Sinjun Hamelin: Measurable by what criteria?
Aphrodite Macbain: is physical or real space
Sinjun Hamelin: Physical, mental?
Huntress Selenium: Aphrodite, yes, that is physical space, but then there is the space we walk, talk, and move in
Huntress Selenium: It's more than that
SophiaSharon Larnia: awareness changes the laws
Eliza Madrigal: we made space for time, space for space, space for awareness? :)
Aphrodite Macbain: by mathematical principles
Huntress Selenium: Sinjun, by the usual criteria--meters, etc.
Aphrodite Macbain: that don't change
SophiaSharon Larnia: or sees them for what they are
Aphrodite Macbain: these laws and principles Whereas conceptual space is variable
Sinjun Hamelin: In my job...or my space...there are areas that cannot be measured by any sane method.
Aphrodite Macbain: subjective
Sinjun Hamelin: spaces that defy all definition...
Huntress Selenium: Subjective but not necessary metaphorical, Aphrodite
Aphrodite Macbain: Of course - give us an example Sinjun
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Paradise
Sinjun Hamelin: um......perhaps ..subjective...
Eden Haiku: ::::::Inner spaces shared::::::Hours of conversation::::::Miles and miles of space
Huntress Selenium: You can tell the locations of someone by looking at the gestures and eye movements; they put their past in a physical space; their problem solving
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Riddle :)
Riddle Sideways whispers. thanks and bye all
Eliza Madrigal: :)))
Eliza Madrigal: night Riddle....
Aphrodite Macbain smiles t Eden
stevenaia Michinaga: H Paradise
Huntress Selenium: So even though this is 'in their head,' it is in the world too
Huntress Selenium: night, Riddle
Huntress Selenium: hi Paradise
Paradise Tennant: smiles and waves all round ... listening :)
Huntress Selenium: You see what I mean though? Your memory is internal, but you can point to your past in physical space
Sinjun Hamelin: A mind that is so deranged that the space it occupies is horror..
Aphrodite Macbain: In remembered space
stevenaia Michinaga: like dream space, Hunt
Eden Haiku: waves @Paradise
Aphrodite Macbain: that's were my past is located
Eliza Madrigal: must go as well... sleepy and thankful. Goodnight
stevenaia Michinaga: night ELiza
Huntress Selenium: steve, you can point to dream space too; if you remember ur dreams, or are lucid dreaming
Aphrodite Macbain: Nite Eliza. Sleep well
Huntress Selenium: night Eliza
Eden Haiku: night Eliza :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Eliza
Sinjun Hamelin: Thank you all for letting me listen...smiles...
Paradise Tennant: nite eliza :)
stevenaia Michinaga: they are both spaces of remembrance constructed by the mind
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes, but they are not physical, they are constructed
Aphrodite Macbain: by our very subjective, inexact minds
stevenaia Michinaga: but they were physical in the case of a memory.. at some point
Ewan Bonham: Huntress...what is objectivity after all?
Eden Haiku: Thanks so much Aphrodite, Steve and SophiaSharon. Food for thoughts, well done!
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Eden :)
Ewan Bonham: One persons ruler is not another's
Eden Haiku: Good night everyone :)
Aphrodite Macbain: But they shift and change, they are not absolutes
Ewan Bonham: Bye Eden
Sinjun Hamelin: Goodnight..to you all..
stevenaia Michinaga: night Eden
Paradise Tennant: nite eden sinjun :)
Eos Amaterasu: bye all, and thanks!
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Sinjin
Aphrodite Macbain: Good night everyone. It has been a treat.
Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you my fellow presenters, steve and ophia
stevenaia Michinaga: Thank You Aphrodite
Aphrodite Macbain: Sophia
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye all whos leaving
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Someone will have to show me how to do this better next time
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles, you're fine Aphrodite
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks - you're all very kind
Ewan Bonham: Wonderful and really thought provoking presentations..:)
Paradise Tennant: looking forward to reading the log ..sounds like just a great session :)
Aphrodite Macbain: It was a little hectic - copying, pasting entering
stevenaia Michinaga: it will look better on the Wiki
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes the log will be little easier
stevenaia Michinaga: but not as fun
Aphrodite Macbain: Are you editing it Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: and spell checking
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: What did you think Susan?
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye for now all, I have to get some work stuff done before bed :)
Paradise Tennant: nite nite sophia :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm off too, my fingers are tired
stevenaia Michinaga: night SophiaSharon
Paradise Tennant: think I will scoot too .. so sorry to have missed this :)
Ewan Bonham: Bye Sharon..
Paradise Tennant: nite all and thank you :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! bye all
stevenaia Michinaga: any additional comments?
stevenaia Michinaga: we should do this in a square room, less chance of spinning
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Zaid
stevenaia Michinaga: we are just finishing up a discussion, but feel free to join us
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm should be off as well, much to do
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for coming

Ewan Bonham: Bye Steve..
Huntress Selenium: bye steve!
Ewan Bonham: Great presentation
Huntress Selenium: oh, it was awesome
Huntress Selenium: I often wonder about whether to come to these discussions, as I've gotten mixed responses, but i'm glad I came tonight
--BELL--
Freud Jungsten: I really don't get a lot out of the chats here either most of the time.
Freud Jungsten: But I find it interesting to see what folks talk about.
Huntress Selenium: well, there was one discussion where i came in at the end, and for the next 1 hour and a half they discussed me as a problem to be solved
Huntress Selenium: That made me not want to come back
Ewan Bonham: Some of it has to do with whether it is a chat or it is a presentation by a facilitator..
Huntress Selenium: But on the other hand, days like today are simply awesome
Ewan Bonham: I really enjoy true dialogue..
Freud Jungsten: I also like that I see English here that I don't in other places.
Huntress Selenium: Yeah, I nearly decided to come with a tag "I am not here as an object of criticism or an object in any way."
Freud Jungsten: Helps me work on that part of my vocabulary.
Huntress Selenium: hi Arch!
Freud Jungsten: lol... Not as bad as philosophy house where they just sit around and insult each other on how unphilosophical each other are.
Freud Jungsten: OK.. time for bed all.
Freud Jungsten: do na da go hv i
Huntress Selenium: Arch, its all but over, and i have to leave for (sl) work; was called in to dance tonight
Huntress Selenium: "And he who isn't busy being born is busy dying"
Ewan Bonham: Bye for now folks and thanks for the insightful chats..:)
Huntress Selenium: Arch, it was the nature of space
Huntress Selenium: A mandala would be a great symbol for inner space
Huntress Selenium: oh, i gotta go!
Huntress Selenium: Being called into SL work
Huntress Selenium: thanks everyone for a great conversation
Huntress Selenium: and for accepting me into it

Zaid Blaylock: I wish I'd been here earlier.
Archmage Atlantis: 4 points to the circle...bye sister of the hunt
--BELL--
Zaid Blaylock: I'm off but I'd like to come back during "happy hour" as it were.
Archmage Atlantis: I don't understand why the thermostat, and the thermometer, register 72 F, yet it is 54 F outside.....and I am cold

Archmage Atlantis: A metaphysical chill, perhaps
Archmage Atlantis: Fair well, Zaid
Susan Aloix: bye Zaid...
Calvino Rabeni: A friend of mine who lives in Florida was saying essentially the same thing
Calvino Rabeni: maybe due to the lack of any robust heat source in the house
Calvino Rabeni: which would be psychological I suppose
Archmage Atlantis: The homeless are being offered housing here, in South Florida
Archmage Atlantis: As best can be provided
Archmage Atlantis: Some will die
Susan Aloix: :( arch
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, that is sad.
Archmage Atlantis: What we do to each other is sad
Archmage Atlantis: That is how nature has made us
Archmage Atlantis: Made each creature
Archmage Atlantis: And because we realize it
Archmage Atlantis: some think it is the way
Susan Aloix: Nature has made us?
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: There are many ways to think of "nature"
Archmage Atlantis: God sometimes
Susan Aloix: nods......
Archmage Atlantis: Chance sometimes
Archmage Atlantis: Good luck or providence some other times
Susan Aloix: i hear you....
Archmage Atlantis: I know you do
Archmage Atlantis: the buts are always there
Archmage Atlantis: that is faith, belieif.....the other than the buts
Susan Aloix: I better get going is all......thanks for the discussion :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Susan :)
Susan Aloix: Bye cal :) bye arch :)
Calvino Rabeni: I'll move along too, good evening
Archmage Atlantis: namaste and blessing and (fill in here)
Archmage Atlantis: Luv you
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Archmage Atlantis: go in peace