2011.08.06 13:00 - Blink

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Wol Euler: hello fc
neo Mosely: hi Fc
Wol Euler: hello neo
Wol Euler: have you been here before?
neo Mosely: hi wol
neo Mosely: seems ppl r less today
Wol Euler: I take it that means "yes" :)
neo Mosely: oh i missed that
FcSeeker Resident: Hello Neo and Wol :)
neo Mosely: ya, i hav been here
Wol Euler: np
neo Mosely: and u
Wol Euler: ok, so you know about the recording and you've had the introduction. Good :)
neo Mosely: ya, so r we in a discussion now
Wol Euler: so far, just me asking whether you'd been here before :)
neo Mosely: Fc, seems ppl are coming in
FcSeeker Resident: Hello Dash
Wol Euler: and in fact I need to step out for a sec and make some more tea, I'm gasping
Dash Earthboy: hey y'all
Wol Euler: hello dash, bruce; brb
FcSeeker Resident: yes
FcSeeker Resident: Hello san and Bruce
neo Mosely: hello dash, bruce
Santoshima Resident: hello
Dash Earthboy: a girl at the shelter here was trying to get me to join redlight social center or something like that
Dash Earthboy: what an experience my first shelter is turning out to be
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol, neo, Fc, Dash, and Santo!
neo Mosely: dash u mean the Rl one?
Santoshima Resident: hey bruce
Dash Earthboy: hey Bruce, Wol, neo, Fc, San, Zon...
Wol Euler: hello santo, zon
Dash Earthboy: et al
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zon.
Zon Kwan: hey all
FcSeeker Resident: Hello Zon
Santoshima Resident: hello all
Santoshima Resident: oops, hit the repeat button
FcSeeker Resident: please tell more Dash
Dash Earthboy: oops
Dash Earthboy: getting distracted by people here
FcSeeker Resident: aha
Dash Earthboy: lots of interest in Second Life aka PaB
Wol Euler waves to the RL peoples "out there"
FcSeeker Resident: so please ask them to observe with peace
Dash Earthboy: :)
Dash Earthboy: so far no loud music distractions :)
FcSeeker Resident: <3
Wol Euler: well :)

Wol Euler: hello druth
FcSeeker Resident: hello druth
Dash Earthboy: ok, they said "you're kidding" and now we got the loud rap music
druth Vlodovic: hi all
Santoshima Resident: hello Druth
Wol Euler chuckles.
FcSeeker Resident: try to tell them that we all are waiting for your lines ?
neo Mosely: well, how many r thr watching us Dash
Dash Earthboy: just three now
FcSeeker Resident: <3
FcSeeker Resident: how are you ?
Dash Earthboy: a little hot, not from the virus tho
FcSeeker Resident: so your winning it ?
Dash Earthboy: more from voluntarily mowing and weeding the back
FcSeeker Resident: <3
Dash Earthboy: only about a quarter acre
Wol Euler smiles.
Dash Earthboy: hey Aph
Dash Earthboy: who's claiming this session?
Wol Euler: timetable says aph is goc
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose I can now
Bruce Mowbray: Aph just told me she is trying hard to get here - and asked me to claim the session - which I've just done.
FcSeeker Resident: Hello Aphrodite
Wol Euler: ok
Bruce Mowbray: Yayyy!
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Aph!
Aphrodite Macbain: Whew! Sits in the fountain
Dash Earthboy: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Too much mountain climbing, Aph?
Zon Kwan: hi aph
Dash Earthboy: sitting in the pool to cool off aph?
Aphrodite Macbain: Having a hard time connecting now

Looking good, looking well

Aphrodite Macbain: oops. sorry. can't see very well
Dash Earthboy: np, Wol is still a cloud to me :)
Bruce Mowbray: a cloud with antlers, Dash?
Dash Earthboy: btw, had to fix the weedeater before I could use it after mowing :)
Dash Earthboy: as Harrison Ford said in "6 days, 7 nights" .... "I've got skills"
Dash Earthboy: no Bruce, re Wol, just a cloud :)
Dash Earthboy: Aph is looking good tho :)
Wol Euler: rebaking ...
Dash Earthboy: yay! there ya are Wol :)
Aphrodite Macbain blushes
Bruce Mowbray: Woll looks fine to moi, btw -- no antlers.
Aphrodite Macbain: Good to see you all
Wol Euler: true :)
Wol Euler: a rare human-shaped appearance
Aphrodite Macbain: you're all beautiful
Bruce Mowbray: but excellent lacy dress top.
Bruce Mowbray: and boots.
Aphrodite Macbain: Wol has style
Wol Euler blushes and grins
Santoshima Resident: and opera gloves
Bruce Mowbray: I'd say she does!

Aphrodite Macbain: Dash, how are you doing?
FcSeeker Resident: takes a humble bow
FcSeeker Resident: namaste
Santoshima Resident: namaste fc
Wol Euler: bye fc, take care
Bruce Mowbray: leaving so soon, Fc?
Aphrodite Macbain: namaste
Aphrodite Macbain: Fc- sorry you have to go
Bruce Mowbray: Bye -- and be well and happy, my friend.
Aphrodite Macbain waves
Bruce Mowbray: I am trying to multi-task -- and not succeeding.
Wol Euler: probably missing Hokon-bear :(
neo Mosely: bye Fc
Aphrodite Macbain: I am trying to see
Bruce Mowbray: I am trying to post a gallery of photos from the Halifax retreat -- but am too divided to do it well, so I will wait till later for that.
Bruce Mowbray needs coaching on multi-tasking from Yaku.
Aphrodite Macbain: and am not being too successful
Aphrodite Macbain: all I see is druth's hair
Bruce Mowbray: It's your connection, Aph.
Santoshima Resident: too many mountains
Wol Euler: yep
Aphrodite Macbain: he he
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
Wol Euler: signal gets tired
Bruce Mowbray: I see everyone perfectly. ..
Aphrodite Macbain: yup- but the air is clear!

Santoshima Resident: namaskar
Dash Earthboy: bye San?

Wol Euler: bye santo, take care
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Santo!

Aphrodite Macbain: By San

Blink

Aphrodite Macbain: Did you know that we make snap decisions and judgements based on what we see, and on our in-built biases that often relate to the appearance of things?
Aphrodite Macbain: I've been reading Blink
Wol Euler: come and join us, aph :)
Dash Earthboy: Blink?
Aphrodite Macbain: I would if I could see you!
Wol Euler: by malcolm gladwell
Wol Euler: ah :)
Dash Earthboy: did you Blink Aph?
Wol Euler: well stay there, then. we don't want any accidents
Aphrodite Macbain: Blink is a book about how we make snap decisions
Aphrodite Macbain: right Wol
druth Vlodovic: generally called "prejudice" or heuristics" depending on what you're supposed to think about the practice
Wol Euler: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: our prejudicdes are often based on what things look like
Dash Earthboy: :)
Dash Earthboy: for sure
Bruce Mowbray: What about "First Thought - Best Thought"?
Aphrodite Macbain: (Gladwell) told the story about what a difference it made when they put a screen in front of the players for music auditions- suddenly more female musicians were hired
Aphrodite Macbain: since the jury's assumption was that men were better musicians
Aphrodite Macbain: and their decision was unconciously made a soon as they saw they were men/women
Aphrodite Macbain: So according to Gladwell, first thought isn't always a best thought
druth Vlodovic: this is why interviews is a silly idea, you come in and try to impress with appearence and skills unrelated to the job
Bruce Mowbray thinks that we usually arrive in containers designed to meet the containers that we meet. . . (or maybe not).
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: apparently people decide almost immediately (before any thoughtful study) who is going to be hired
Zon Kwan: life is often what it looks like
Dash Earthboy: i've seen that Aph
druth Vlodovic: only if you ignore evidence to the contrary Zon, and it is amazing how good people are at that; so the solution is to create a situation where irrelevant criteria are eliminated, likethe gender of the person or the colour of their skin
Dash Earthboy: agrees
druth Vlodovic: sl job interviews :)
Dash Earthboy: :)
Wol Euler: heh
druth Vlodovic: we appear using an avatar provided by the company
Zon Kwan: first one has to define what is relevant
Bruce Mowbray wonders what might be "irrelevant."
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Zon.. irrelevant*
Aphrodite Macbain: like my spelling, for instance
Wol Euler: :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Zon Kwan: and that always depends..
Bruce Mowbray: same with redundancy. . . WHAT is redundant for someone who is "present"?
Aphrodite Macbain: huh? Bruce?
Dash Earthboy: would Aph dropping into the pool be considered relevant or irrelevant to getting a job requiring decorum
Dash Earthboy: ?
Bruce Mowbray: One cannot step in the same stream twice -- Heraclitus.
Aphrodite Macbain: Um.. am I sitting in the pool again?
druth Vlodovic: if the job wanted common sense and she is as hot as I am, it ought to be considered a positive factor
Zon Kwan: eg. i like woman priests more than men priests consciously...so its relevant for me to go to church where there is a woman priest
Dash Earthboy: sry a fight almost broke out here :(
Bruce Mowbray: yes, you are, Aph -- but not to worry - I'D HIRE YOU ANYWHERE YOU WANT TO SIT!
Aphrodite Macbain: Yikes
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Dash Earthboy: too much testosterone about this new girl
Aphrodite Macbain: I am afraid I will sit on someone if I move again
druth Vlodovic: the question zon, is why do you like women preists, and is that a valid criteria for determination
Wol Euler: no worries
Bruce Mowbray: It's really OK. You're fine right there.
Zon Kwan: it is for me
Wol Euler: yay :)

Aph moves anyway and safely sits next to Dash
Dash Earthboy: hi Aph....;)

Aphrodite Macbain: whew. I've been having a hard time navigating today. Hi Dash:-)

Bruce Mowbray: I've never quite understood why the "Church" is so opposed to ordaining women.
Wol Euler: pure power, bruce
Zon Kwan: why do u like ice-cream, i cant explain that
druth Vlodovic: hormonally women have a strong effect on men, so weak men are terrified of them
Bruce Mowbray: Male fear, pride, arrogance. . . or just locked and stuck in tradition?
Aphrodite Macbain: women are weak and unclean...
Wol Euler: most of religion is about men trying to control women's sexuality. They'd worry that a female priest would not be strict enough in suppressing her sisters
Zon Kwan: women priests are sexy
Wol Euler: IMHO YMMV
Aphrodite Macbain: Zon!
Zon Kwan: they are
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe to you
Zon Kwan: nods nods
Wol Euler: de gustibus etc
Aphrodite Macbain: caveat emptor
Zon Kwan: and they have better emotional skills
Bruce Mowbray: No accounting for taste, Wol?
Zon Kwan: than men
Wol Euler: no arguing about taste, bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Zon Kwan: and priests work in managing emotions
Zon Kwan: in difficult situations emotionally
Zon Kwan: so there
Zon Kwan: and they' re sexier than men.....
Zon Kwan: ops

Dash Earthboy: emotional intelligence is a good topic Aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. It could be. How would you define i?
Zon Kwan: and we can discuss is the priests function to be a mediator between you and god or is he/she more of a social worker
Zon Kwan: this defines what is relvant
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps a bit of both Zon
druth Vlodovic: if you're scared of your gods then you'd want the priests to take the hit for you
Wol Euler smiles.
Zon Kwan: relevant is thus the task and what is not relevant for that task is appearances
Aphrodite Macbain: This is outside my experience and knowledge so I can't comment
druth Vlodovic: hey, you're the one who wanted sexy priests/priestesses
Aphrodite Macbain: could you restate that Zon?
Aphrodite Macbain: We each have to define what's relevant to ourselves?
Zon Kwan: what is relevant is defined by the task
Aphrodite Macbain: There is no absolute
Zon Kwan: yup
Zon Kwan: and for me woman priest is relevant
Zon Kwan: not man
Aphrodite Macbain: The priest, the shrink, the teacher can only advise on what they believe to be true within what they are an expert in. But it is up to us to decide what is relvant

Wol Euler: that's pretty much what Zon said, isn't it? :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I think so
Bruce Mowbray: So, it comes down to trusting ourselves -- our intuition about what is relevant to us?
Zon Kwan: who else can decide that?
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps, but being able to listen to advice without prejudice is also handy before we decide.
druth Vlodovic: intuition which has hopefully been carefully trained by reason and observation, as well as wise upbringing
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, with all those protective containers and filters....
Aphrodite Macbain: gut feelings are the right ones??
Zon Kwan: well..i am afraid most of us are conditioned in one way or the other
Wol Euler: intuition tempered by intelligence and common sense, perhaps :)
Zon Kwan: and we grow slowly
Zon Kwan: and gradually
Bruce Mowbray: It is impossible to live in civilization and NOT be conditioned.
Aphrodite Macbain: the older we are the more conditoned we are - & could end up as old fools
Zon Kwan: so all we can do is do our best
Bruce Mowbray: but we can practice -- and see more clearly, or so it is said.
Bruce Mowbray does understand "old fools."
Bruce Mowbray: that phrase is relevant!
Zon Kwan: there are 2 ways to grow old
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. we have to excercise some form of judgement at some stage
Bruce Mowbray dies from laughing....
Zon Kwan: shrink or expand
Dash Earthboy: there's that word "judgement"
Aphrodite Macbain: become focused or bloated?
Zon Kwan: become conditioned or aware
Aphrodite Macbain: sometimes we have to make decisions which are based on judgement
Dash Earthboy: yep
Dash Earthboy: just so tired of Quakers telling me that when I use it, it's bad
druth Vlodovic: condition ourselves to maintain awareness
Aphrodite Macbain: virtue is making good judgements?
Dash Earthboy: and when they use it, that's okay
Aphrodite Macbain: being compassionate? obeying the golden rule?
Bruce Mowbray: HA HA! -- Loved Dash's remark about Quakers!
Wol Euler: I'm not sure what we are talking about. Are we saying that we must always and only use intuition in every situation and decision that we make, or that we must always and only reject it?
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm not
Zon Kwan: to be aware..there is no decision to be made
Wol Euler: why not use it when it's appropriate and discard it when it isn`t?
Aphrodite Macbain: absolutely Wol
druth Vlodovic: I just became aware of the time and judged this the appropriate time to leave :)
druth Vlodovic: have fun all
Wol Euler: be druth, take care
Wol Euler: *bye
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, druth!
Dash Earthboy: getting back to the Blink topic, it appears that indeed we all make judgements and such choices are often influenced by appearance...is that about right?
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes. But we also must become aware that our reasoning can be skewed by all forms of unconcious prejudice
Wol Euler: of course
Dash Earthboy: for sure Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: That's where the work comes in!
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps the "work" is bringing our un-conscious filters and prejudices into consciousness and dealing with them.
Dash Earthboy: yep
Wol Euler smiles
Bruce Mowbray: That's why they call it "practice."
Dash Earthboy: aka practice
Aphrodite Macbain: nicely put Bruce
Dash Earthboy: snap
Bruce Mowbray: snap!
Aphrodite Macbain: lol.  and Dash
Zon Kwan: our decisions are based on our desire, then we use our thinking to achieve what we often unconciously want
Aphrodite Macbain: we have a match!
Bruce Mowbray: agreement!!! YAYYYY!
Bruce Mowbray: @ Zon -- in order to derive "good feeling" from getting what we desire.... Right?
Aphrodite Macbain: Hence the importance of an open, beginners mind
Zon Kwan: yup
Dash Earthboy: as a child

Grace and fairness

Aphrodite Macbain: do you think we are designed to know what is good, right and moral?
Aphrodite Macbain: is it innate?
Dash Earthboy: yes
Zon Kwan: moral is taught us by society
Bruce Mowbray: Zen Mind Beginner's Mind - - - one's Natural Self. . . . (but look OUT!)
Dash Earthboy: Zon, i think "legal" is taught us by society
Aphrodite Macbain: I believe so, so it is to society we look to help us make moral judgements if it is not innate?
Zon Kwan: there is outer morality and inner ethics
Bruce Mowbray: What is "moral" depends entirely on the context.
Aphrodite Macbain: when a child says "that's not fair" how does that child know that?
Bruce Mowbray: That is ethics -- not morals.
Dash Earthboy: when an adult says "that's not fair" how does that adult know that?
Aphrodite Macbain: from experience
Zon Kwan: inner side-outer side
Zon Kwan: we should look which it is
Zon Kwan: every time
Bruce Mowbray: I'd tend to go with the child, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder whether we have an in-built sense of fairness
Zon Kwan: yes
Bruce Mowbray: We do, yes.
Zon Kwan: we are basically one
Aphrodite Macbain: so that part isn't learned?
Zon Kwan: so we feel it
Bruce Mowbray: It has been tested in many cultures -- and seen to be similar if not the same.
Dash Earthboy: even having a built-in sense of fairness, some will still act out of greed
Aphrodite Macbain: really?
Bruce Mowbray: Stephen Pinker -- No blank slate.
Aphrodite Macbain: ah- thanks!
Zon Kwan: but if i say homosexuality is wrong..is it inner or outer morailty?
Bruce Mowbray: i can find that reference for you if you want me to.
Aphrodite Macbain: sure- thanks
Bruce Mowbray: Zon and I were discussing it in a previous session recently.
Aphrodite Macbain: in what way is it "wrong" Zon?
Zon Kwan: i think that comes from outside..society
Dash Earthboy: listens
Zon Kwan: or cannibalism
Zon Kwan: its ok in some tribes
Zon Kwan: so its moral
Bruce Mowbray: The issue of morality re homosexuality is heavily influenced by culture, of course. . .
Zon Kwan: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: society decides morality
Zon Kwan: outer  yes
Bruce Mowbray: But I think it's an interesting "?" -- because there seems to be evidence that sexual preference is determined by genes.
Bruce Mowbray: So, again, no blank slate.
Zon Kwan: what r genes
Aphrodite Macbain: but I think it can be tempered by our own minds and feelings about it
Zon Kwan: we can effect our genes
Bruce Mowbray: Some cultures have revered homosexuality as a sacred "state" --
Aphrodite Macbain: In a world that is overpopulated, it may become the norm
Bruce Mowbray: How do we affect our genes, Zon?
Zon Kwan: we should always ask..is this good or bad cause others think so
Dash Earthboy: may we agree that "fair", "moral" and "ethical" are not synonymous?
Bruce Mowbray: we may, yes.
Aphrodite Macbain: I agree
Dash Earthboy: do genetics effect each of these?
Zon Kwan: depends how we want to define these words
Dash Earthboy: none of these?
Zon Kwan: words are words...context how we use them is the point
Bruce Mowbray: I hope, personally, that we do NOT find that we are genetically "determined" -- which would lend a "cop-out" excuse to much behavior that is actually chosen.
Zon Kwan: point is..is this bad cause others have told me so
Wol Euler nods.
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Aph! Have fun in the mountains!
Zon Kwan: or caused i feel so regardless what others say
Dash Earthboy: bye Aph?
Dash Earthboy: or bye Bruce?
Dash Earthboy: i'm confused :)
Bruce Mowbray: (IM-ing again... sry)
Bruce Mowbray: or else Bruce is prescient.
Dash Earthboy: thus the issue of "context"

Zon Kwan: we are responsible for our inner morality, not society

Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! I have to go and be a good guest and help ge readyfor tonight's party
Wol Euler: bye aph, have fun
Dash Earthboy: bye Aph :)
Bruce Mowbray: Byeeeeeeeeee!
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye! all Great talking with you

Dash Earthboy: so now I have this room all to myself of course
Dash Earthboy: timing :(
Bruce Mowbray: No rappers, Dash?
Dash Earthboy: right
Wol Euler: ah well :)
Bruce Mowbray: cool. You're right -- context matters.
Dash Earthboy: no fight either
Bruce Mowbray: I need to be away also.
Wol Euler: bye bruce, take care
Dash Earthboy: bye Bruce
Zon Kwan: bye all
Wol Euler: actually, I should too. It's getting late and I wanted to post both sesssions tonight.
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks everyone. Zon, we'll continue this discussion at another time. MUCH to build on here.
Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now!
Dash Earthboy: bye Wol
Dash Earthboy: and bye all as I also leave