2011.08.07 13:00 - Pain and suffering

the guardian for this session was Maxine Walden.  the comments are hers.

This session seemed or orient around different experiences with pain and suffering.  First the gathering of seemingly externally caused pains and distress, and then some intensifying expression of the wish to expel, to evade such pain.  Then the introduction of the notion of suffering, which at first may have been considered as overly focussing on pain, but then was also considered to be how we handle pain, what we can face, what we cannot.  This passionate discussion seemed to be drawn into a unity by the mention of the Serenity Prayer, which is mentioned toward the end of the log.  An interesting session to be a part of.

When I got to the Pavilion Dash and Korel were already in discussion:

Dash Earthboy: is possible?

Korel Laloix: I like it just above 100.

Dash Earthboy: hey maxine

Korel Laloix: Be humidity effects as well.

Dash Earthboy: yah

Maxine Walden: hi, Dash and Korel!

Korel Laloix: Heya.

Korel Laloix: I like a dry heat higher.

You decline ....Garden of Peace from A group member named Soraya Till.

Dash Earthboy: i'm sitting in the dining room at the shelter, out of the heat here :)

Korel Laloix: But weat heat about 103 or 4 I think.

Korel Laloix: Good for you.

Dash Earthboy: watching them bake chicken

Korel Laloix: That sounds good.

Korel Laloix: Good smel?

Dash Earthboy: should be :)

Dash Earthboy: yah

Dash Earthboy: i helped with a fancy brunch today instead of normal breakfast

Korel Laloix: What you have?

Maxine Walden: (having trouble sitting again :) )

Korel Laloix: Looks good to me.

Dash Earthboy: apple pancakes, ham, omelet, guava juice, coffee, potato salad, cereal, salsa, chips...

Korel Laloix: Sounds lovely.

Dash Earthboy: quite a spread

Maxine Walden: hi, Fc

Dash Earthboy: hey Fc

FcSeeker Resident: Hello Maxine Korel Dash

Korel Laloix: I had nachoes.... I like your idea better.

Maxine Walden: seems we are hearing all about great food....

Korel Laloix: I am sitting on the back porch just sweating buckets.

Maxine Walden: you do enjoy the heat, don't you Korel!

Dash Earthboy: that heat is unbearable

Korel Laloix: Love it.

Maxine Walden: very interesting!

Korel Laloix: I might as well have an icetea IV set up.

Dash Earthboy: :)

Maxine Walden: :)

Korel Laloix: It is better than beig inside... grandma is trying to freeze me to death.

Santoshima Resident: hello

Maxine Walden: hi, Santoshima

Maxine Walden: welcome

Dash Earthboy: i like your granny korel :)

Korel Laloix: Heya

FcSeeker Resident: Hello san

Dash Earthboy: hey San

Santoshima Resident: hey, what are you talking about?

Dash Earthboy: food

Dash Earthboy: heat

Korel Laloix: She is a great old lady...

Maxine Walden: :), food and heat it seems :)

Korel Laloix: And she puts up with me. smiles. SO that is good.

Maxine Walden: and grandmas

Dash Earthboy: :)

Korel Laloix: SHe is actually my stepdad's mother, but it all works out anyway.

Dash Earthboy: i'm also dealing with a severe virus that is rampant in this shelter

Dash Earthboy: has 48-72 hr incubation

Maxine Walden: ah, sorry to hear that,Dash. Are you ill yourself?

Dash Earthboy: and then lasts about 10 days

Dash Earthboy: yes Max

Korel Laloix: What sort of bug?

Maxine Walden: so sorry

Dash Earthboy: in some it has already evolved into pneumonia

Dash Earthboy: the shelter is doing little to curb the spread

Maxine Walden: Oh, my, sounds like a nasty bug

Dash Earthboy: very

Korel Laloix: Might be time to move on then.

Korel Laloix: Easy to say though.

Dash Earthboy: sore throat, sinus congestion, loss of appetite, and potential chest congestion

Santoshima Resident: that would be virus-speak: "go forth and multiply" ...

Maxine Walden: yes, that can be very debilitating

Dash Earthboy: yes Korel I had thought of moving on

Santoshima Resident: viruses compel social interaction

Dash Earthboy: but can't afford accomodations elsewhere

Santoshima Resident: sorry to hear that you're not feeling well

Santoshima Resident: where are you?

Dash Earthboy: and would not wish to give this to someone who took me in

Dash Earthboy: i'm in North Platte, NE

Santoshima Resident: oh still

Dash Earthboy: in a shelter created by author Ron Snell

Dash Earthboy: yes San

FcSeeker Resident: <3

Maxine Walden: hi, Bruce, nice to see you

Dash Earthboy: hey Bruce

Santoshima Resident: could you rest there for a while

FcSeeker Resident: Hello Bruce

Santoshima Resident: hello bruce

Dash Earthboy: oh i can stay as long as I pay $7/night and do chores twice daily

Bruce Mowbray: Hello everyone! [listens to hear the thread. . . ]

Dash Earthboy: i still donated over $50 in groceries to them this morning

Maxine Walden: We are speaking about viral illnesses, summer heat, how to manage with all these things perhaps...

Santoshima Resident: need for rest and self-care

Dash Earthboy: hey Wol

Maxine Walden: where to find shelter, perhaps from these problems

Maxine Walden: hi wol

FcSeeker Resident: Hello Wol

Wol Euler: good evening, everyone

Santoshima Resident: hello Wol

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol!

Wol Euler wishes not to interrupt, please continue

FcSeeker Resident: Hello Zen

Bruce Mowbray feels antler envy.

Dash Earthboy: hey Zen

Wol Euler giggles.

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zen!

Wol Euler: helloo zen

Maxine Walden: maybe a pause in the conversation, wol, talking about daily issues, shelters, illnesses, maybe also self care

Maxine Walden: hi, Zen

Zen Arado: Hi All

Korel Laloix: Shelters are amazing things.

Santoshima Resident: hi zen

Maxine Walden: how so, Korel?

Korel Laloix: I stayed in one for a while back when I was 19.

Korel Laloix: Just how they do what they do with what they have.

Korel Laloix: Now I help wtih them on occation.

Korel Laloix: And in spite of all the outside people that want to tell them how to do what they do.

Maxine Walden: offering a lot with seemingly little?

Bruce Mowbray recalls from an earlier discussion here: "Learn to want what you experience."

Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.

Wol Euler smiles.

Dash Earthboy: well, it is nice to be able to help even when one has little resources

Zen Arado: learn to say yes to what you experience

Zen Arado: (same thing)

Dash Earthboy: that's what I tried to do at the rescue operations at my home in Georgia

Maxine Walden: I'd like to hear a bit more about saying yes to what one is experiencing....

Korel Laloix: What do you mean by that ZEn

Korel Laloix: ?

Korel Laloix: yes please Zen

Maxine Walden: :)

Zen Arado: not resisting what happens

Maxine Walden: ah, embracing it, taking it in?

Zen Arado: I heard an understanding of the loan about one hand clapping

Korel Laloix: I very strongly dissagree with that.

Zen Arado: koan*

Korel Laloix: Had too many bad things forced on me.

Zen Arado: it doesn't mean not trying to change things

Dash Earthboy: i feel more akin to Korel's feelings than to the the idea of "going with the flow"

Zen Arado: but more nor always wanting things to be different instead of enjoying what we have

Dash Earthboy: whether one says it "say yes to what's happening" or whatever words are used

Maxine Walden: distinctly different attitudes about welcoming whatever comes

Dash Earthboy: for sure Max

Zen Arado: we can loo at what comes as a teaching

Zen Arado: people always say that to me about acceptance

Zen Arado: it isn't resignation

Korel Laloix: If it is amatter of getting regular or fire cheetoes, I can role with that.

Zen Arado: it is saying ah ...that;s the way it is...I accept that...now what can I do about it

Dash Earthboy: Zen, what came here last night was a Mennonite church group that brought us a nice dinner and even sang to us

Korel Laloix: But when it comes to getting put in the emergeny room, I wil have to dissagree.

Santoshima Resident: there needs to be a ground for that approach, otherwise it sounds superficial

Santoshima Resident: and doesn't make sense

Zen Arado: but it is better than denial

Dash Earthboy: agree w/you San

Santoshima Resident: oh sure,

Zen Arado: I had a spell in hospital last year

Maxine Walden: whether what comes can teach us, or whether it is anticipated as a harmful element

Bruce Mowbray: There's a difference between "hurt" and "harm" - - Of course, we should protect ourselves against harm. But those things that "hurt" can also be potential opportunities to valuable "work" on ourselves. . . on our reactiveness.

Santoshima Resident: i don't mean to disagree with that as a method.

Zen Arado: accepting that and learnign to work with it was a great lesson for me

Zen Arado: not saying 'this shouldn't be happening to me'

Dash Earthboy: the reasoning here reminds me of hashing over "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger"

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Zen -- wonderful example.

Dash Earthboy: it just isn't a good maxim

Korel Laloix: I think we should be thankful for what we have for sure... I think that is the common ground between Zen's thoughts and mine though.

Zen Arado: it is counterintuitive

Wol Euler: "accept" doesn't mean to say that something is good or beneficial, you can say this is harmful while still accepting the experience

Santoshima Resident: yes

Wol Euler: I see this relating to the saying "pain is a fact, but suffering is optional"

Zen Arado: actually you can't move on until you have accepted the situation I think

Maxine Walden: one's attitude toward the pain, wol

Maxine Walden: ?

Korel Laloix: Words generally spoken by people that have not really felt a lot of pain.

Wol Euler: agreed

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Maxine, otherwise we get "stuck" in our own reactive patterns.

Dash Earthboy: hey Chi

FcSeeker Resident: Hello chi

Zen Arado: not many of us in that category I think Korel

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Chi!

Chi Aho: Hello, everyone!

Wol Euler: hello chi

Zen Arado: Hi Chi

Santoshima Resident: hello chi

Dash Earthboy: yah agreed Korel

Maxine Walden: hi, Chi

Korel Laloix: I know what it means though.

Dash Earthboy: too many observers can't understand the experiences they're seeing

Maxine Walden: It is interesting this topic stirs such passionate responses.

Dash Earthboy: yet still deign to tell the participants how to feel & think

Korel Laloix: Attitude goes a long way in not being misserable.

Wol Euler: true, but we can listen to reports of people who *did* have such experiences, and how they dealt with them

Zen Arado: how do you measure suffering?

Santoshima Resident: yes

Korel Laloix: THink that depends on the person.

Korel Laloix: But not sure.

Chi Aho: have them respond on a scale of 1 to 10

Korel Laloix: Like at the doctor's office..... grins

Santoshima Resident: them = each of us

Zen Arado: someone is Somalia mught have a different scale to me

Korel Laloix: Probably.

Zen Arado: yet we have more mental stress

Wol Euler: I think suffering is (a) a value judgement aht people choose to make, and (b) entirely personal. There's a woman where I work who thinks she has an awful life, complaining constantly, bitter and disappointed; I would guess that she suffers much more than you do, dash

Wol Euler: though her life is a sparkly diamond to yours right now

Dash Earthboy: the "how do you measure suffering" idea has been applied at least back to WWII Nazi camp survivors

Korel Laloix: But in reality, eveyone of us here is lucky enough to have internet access... which automaticaly means that we are better off than most of the rest of the planet.

Zen Arado: yeh Wol...we create so much of it ourselves don't we?

Wol Euler: yep

Wol Euler: that's what the saying means

Santoshima Resident: yes

Bruce Mowbray "suffers" tothe tune of $76 per month to get his internet access -- which is relatively slow and which goes off-line whenever we get a storm. (poor Bruce!)

Maxine Walden: hi, Zon

Santoshima Resident: hello zon

Zen Arado: Hi Zon

Zon Kwan: hey all

FcSeeker Resident: Hello Zon

Korel Laloix: So back to Zen's point.. smiles... there are things we should just enjoy as we get them and not focus on what we don't have.

Korel Laloix: Or more importantly, focus on how we can help those around us that have even less.

Santoshima Resident: y

Santoshima Resident: bye all, thanks

Maxine Walden: we are talking about 'suffering' and currently seem to be thinking about how our attitudes may shape the qualitiy of suffering we experience

Korel Laloix: ciao

Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Santo!

Zen Arado: bye Santoshima

Maxine Walden: thanks, San

Dash Earthboy: right on Korel

Wol Euler: bye santo, take care

FcSeeker Resident: waves to san

Zen Arado: it's easier to say than to do

Korel Laloix: So many things are.

Zen Arado: I so naturally want things to go the way I want them to

Chi Aho: to me, suffering would mean actual physical pain, but even there it is said that attitude toward the pain can do something to ease the suffering

Zen Arado: and so naturally get upset when they don;'t

Zon Kwan: naturally

Korel Laloix: I take suffereing to mean psychological pain as well.

Zen Arado: hmmm... I think mental pain is as bad or even worse Chi

Korel Laloix: Agreed Zen.

Chi Aho: if you let it be, yes

Korel Laloix: And when put together....

Chi Aho: you can make me hurt (psychologically), but you cannot make me suffer

Korel Laloix: "let it be"..... I am still not buying that theam really.

Dash Earthboy: agreed Korel

Korel Laloix: You might be able to say that when you are a fully functiong adult.

Zen Arado: me neither Korel

Wol Euler: it#s not about letting be. It's about not suffering because of

Korel Laloix: But what about a child?

Korel Laloix: Or an adult with issues?

Wol Euler: it doesn't mean that you don't step out of the fire

Zon Kwan: let it be means dont control what u cant

Zen Arado: we always want to fix things and control them

Maxine Walden: 'let it be' may sound like being indifferent, but don't think that is what Zen nor Wol are suggesting

Dash Earthboy: speak for yourself Zen

Zon Kwan: we should what we can

Zon Kwan: not more

Korel Laloix: I am getting lost in language again.. which is good... smiles... thanks.

Zen Arado: I want to fix things and control them :)

Wol Euler: my colleague certainly does

Korel Laloix: And you should fix and control things.

Dash Earthboy: ty

Zen Arado: realizing I can't is hard

Chi Aho: we have to recognize that we cannot change the past and just dwelling on painful experiences of the past is denying joy to yourself in the present.

Korel Laloix: Again, easy words to say.

Korel Laloix: As we said before.

Chi Aho: i have experienced them

Maxine Walden: sometime, Korel, pains from the past do seem to rivit our attention

Korel Laloix: Very true.

Zen Arado: they have created deep habit ruts

Korel Laloix: For good and bad.

Chi Aho: so capture the joy

Korel Laloix: I use some of those for motivation though.

Maxine Walden: yes, :)

Dash Earthboy: Max, also, scars from the past seem to rivit the attention of strangers I meet

Wol Euler: right

Zen Arado: patterns of action that are bad for us

Maxine Walden: yes, Dash, agree

Korel Laloix: Very true.

Korel Laloix: I talk more freely about those things in my past here than in RL.

Dash Earthboy: scars from myu past I meant

Korel Laloix: As in RL when you bring things up people want to get into yoru business.

Chi Aho: Korel and Dash also - we *all* have been scarred by the past, and if not, then we will be scarred.

Dash Earthboy: no duh??

Zen Arado: first thing in working with habit energies is actually seeing and accepting we have them I think

Wol Euler: gently, dash, we are not your enemies.

Zen Arado: which is one reason I do meditation

Dash Earthboy: that's me being gentle :)

Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.

Zen Arado: everything is my teacher

Korel Laloix: It is an interesting way to look at things.

Korel Laloix: Where to draw the line seems to me to be the question.

Korel Laloix: But maybe not.

Korel Laloix: the line between acceptance and action to fix mabe.

Zen Arado: the line is where you are not yet ready to face something ..I think

Zen Arado: I see acceptance as merely the first step...action can follow...or not

Zon Kwan: walking that line is called life

Korel Laloix: So maybe the AA prayer?

Zen Arado: what is ti Korel?

Wol Euler: what's that?

Korel Laloix: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

 Courage to change the things I can,

 And wisdom to know the difference.

Zen Arado: ok

Zon Kwan: nods

Dash Earthboy: aka "The Serenity Prayer"

Maxine Walden: :)

Wol Euler: ah :) yes indeed

Zon Kwan: sounds reasonable

Korel Laloix: Serenity prayer as I think it is called.

Wol Euler: didn't know that name for it :)

Korel Laloix: yes.

Zen Arado: (remembers Maggie Thatcher 'quoting that :)

Bruce Mowbray: God give me the perky audacity to experience all of it.

Zen Arado: isn't it from St Francis ?

Zon Kwan: do ur best and leave the rest

Bruce Mowbray: I think the Serenity prayer was from a German theologian....

Zon Kwan: and most of all dont worry

Dash Earthboy: I like St. Francis way to greet & depart, when he says "Pax et bonum"

Zon Kwan: be happy

Bruce Mowbray: Reinhold Niebuhr

Zen Arado: ok

Bruce Mowbray: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer

Korel Laloix: Interesting reading.

Bruce Mowbray: St Francise could have said "May you be happy. May you know the causes of happiness. May you be at peace with yourself and with the world."

Zon Kwan: or just dont worry be happy

Maxine Walden: It feels to me that we are feeling a bit more serene right now, as a group, maybe that prayer offering a kind of unity, Korel. Thanks for bringing it to us.

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, thank you, Korel.

Wol Euler smiles.

Bruce Mowbray: and thank you, Dash, for sharing your struggle -- I have learned though your sharing.

Zen Arado: 'if you can change a bad situation changes it...if you can't walk away from it...if you can't do that accept it...but accept it fully' Eckhart Tolle

Bruce Mowbray: an excellent quotw, Zen.

Bruce Mowbray: I will be off to Bertram's meditation now.

Zen Arado: does that make sense?

Bruce Mowbray: Thank you all -- and be happy and well and safe.

Zon Kwan: perfect

Wol Euler: ah, yes, me too. thanks for the reminder

Maxine Walden: thanks, Bruce

Zen Arado: me too bye all

Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care

Maxine Walden: and yes, Wol, bye

Korel Laloix: Ciao.

FcSeeker Resident: waves

Zon Kwan: bye

Maxine Walden: bye, Zon, thanks

Dash Earthboy: back

Korel Laloix: Take care.

FcSeeker Resident: wb Dash

Maxine Walden: Seems we have had quite a discussion today

Korel Laloix: Interesting topic.

FcSeeker Resident: Hello little

Korel Laloix: Not sure I know what people realy meant though.

Maxine Walden: I will go soon as well, yes will think a lot about our topic today;

Maxine Walden: and agree, Korel, sometimes meanings may seem clear, at other times not so...

Maxine Walden: but I think the prayer you offered really had a unifying effect. Thanks again

Maxine Walden: hope to see you all again soon.

Korel Laloix: There was a psycholcogist hat was a concentration camp survivor.

Dash Earthboy: bye Maxine