The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Archmage Atlantis, Bertram Jacobus and myself

Overweight:

Zen Arado: Hi Arch :)
Archmage Atlantis: Hi Zen :)
Zen Arado: how are you?
Archmage Atlantis: Awake early :) ....but I am well ty
Archmage Atlantis: how are you?
Zen Arado: tired
Zen Arado: :)
Archmage Atlantis: nod
Zen Arado: stayed up too late
Archmage Atlantis: :) - it happens
Zen Arado: Hi Bert :)
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Bert :)
Bertram Jacobus: good morning friends :-)
Zen Arado: I was at a restaurant with a friend last night
Zen Arado: going to restaurants too often
Zen Arado: puting on weight
Bertram Jacobus: *smile* a chatter illness i guess ... ;-)
Zen Arado: restaurant food is too fattening
Bertram Jacobus: widely spread amongst such persons ... ;o)
Zen Arado: it's nice to chat with friends
Archmage Atlantis: I take comfort in the latest "study" that overweight ppl live longer, healthier lives on average
Bertram Jacobus: yes ! i love it as well. but communication and social life in general i like very much, with and withour computers
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, chatting with friends is more important than being slim
Zen Arado: hmmm...they are always saying about how obesity shortens life here
Bertram Jacobus: hmmm - i often wonder why people cling so much on their lifes ...
Archmage Atlantis: They say the same here
Zen Arado: maybe we are designed to be a little overweight
Zen Arado: yes Bert

Perspective and Fear:

Archmage Atlantis: Perspective and fear would be my guesses, Bert
Bertram Jacobus: fear i understand but what do you mean by perspective arch please ?
Archmage Atlantis: By that I am attempting to say that seeing this life as possibly all there is, and/or that there is some level of acheivement to be reached in this life......that would make one cling tighter
Bertram Jacobus: hmmm - okay !
Zen Arado: my perspective has changed from beiing in a wheelchair
Zen Arado: it would change yours too
Bertram Jacobus: sure. i can imagine ...
Zen Arado: you take walking around for granted
Bertram Jacobus: no. i so often think, that nothing is "for granted"
Zen Arado: I am getting a sore shoulder lately from having to reach up for things
Bertram Jacobus: aww - sry to hear that
Zen Arado: I see people jumping up from seats and they don't think how lucky they are they can do that so easily
Zen Arado: it's natural
Bertram Jacobus: sure - since when do you need that chair zen ?+
Zen Arado: we only notice when things go wrong
Archmage Atlantis: Since the use of my legs has atrophied, and my balance has been compromised, I think I understand.........
Zen Arado: I had an awful dream the other week
Zen Arado: I was at a place where people couldn't use their bodies
Bertram Jacobus: oops ? you will tell it i guess now ... ;-)
Zen Arado: and there was a man's head talking on a bed
Zen Arado: and I started thinking what if I couldn't move any part of my body?
Zen Arado: do you get how horrific that must be?
Zen Arado: but maybe that is all fear
Bertram Jacobus: yes. may be ...
Zen Arado: maybe you don't want to talk about this?
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, I spent 45 days in intensive care after an auto a decade ago......I was not able to move, nor was it certain at that time I would ever recover........I understand
Zen Arado: I am thinking lately that fear is the worst thing we face
Archmage Atlantis: *auto accident
Zen Arado: not what happens
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, I agree Zen
Zen Arado: oh that must have been bad Arch?
Zen Arado: how did you feel when you couldn't move?
Archmage Atlantis: It was, but the nurses were really good, and my partner and ex-partner visited me everyday......so I learned from the experience
Archmage Atlantis: To answer more directly, I felt frustrated, annoyed.....I suppose that is why I didn't give in.......that and I really hate bedpans :)
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: I learned a lot from being in hospital last year
Zen Arado: in a way I found you do have to give in
Zen Arado: go with the flow of it
Zen Arado: accept the helplessness of it
Archmage Atlantis: Agree :)....my partner at the time was happy that I let him take charge instead of being my normal stubborn self :)
Bertram Jacobus: what means "to give in" please ? acceptance ?
Zen Arado: not saying 'this shouldn't be happening to me'
Zen Arado: I want to be out of here'
Archmage Atlantis: If I may Zen, tho you said the phrase......to me, in this instance, "to give in" ="to accept the situation as it is"
Zen Arado: yes
Archmage Atlantis: right
Zen Arado: not resignation
Archmage Atlantis: right, not to give up
Zen Arado: being patient
Archmage Atlantis: but to accept
Archmage Atlantis: right
Zen Arado: I wonder when people sya they are 'fighting' cancer
Bertram Jacobus: since when do you need the wheelchair zen ? (if i may ask) (?) ...
Zen Arado: oh about 10 years
Bertram Jacobus: ah okay
Zen Arado: but I still walked around a bit for a long time
Bertram Jacobus: but why wondering about that ? isn´t is so, that people sometimes "win that fight" ?
Zen Arado: but now can't even stand
Zen Arado: I think you just make the best of it
Zen Arado: but you aren't going to win
Bertram Jacobus: okay. too bad - but as you said already : so many good aspects as well : learning, accepting, patience ...
Zen Arado: and why are we so afraid of death?
Archmage Atlantis: To me "fighting" any disease, in it's best sense, is to continue to live as full a life as one can, to accept that some potentially painful treatments may need to be tried, and to understand in one's heart that the outcome is not in one's own power to control.
Bertram Jacobus: hmmm - i disagree in a way - may only be a matter of words - but : with very few really cancer disappears again - wouldn´t that be a "winning" perhaps, at least for some ?
Zen Arado: yes Arch
Zen Arado: I suppose it depends what you mean by 'fight'
Bertram Jacobus: yes ! ...
Zen Arado: and yes Bert...sometimes cancer can be cured
Zen Arado: I'm thinking about agressive terminal type
Bertram Jacobus: and the mental influence seems to be so hughe (!) ...
Bertram Jacobus: but the mental influence seems to be so hughe (!) ;-)
Archmage Atlantis: Even with agressive diseases, "miracles", so to speak, do occur
Zen Arado: but 'fight' seems to be distancing yourself from it
Zen Arado: instead of working with it
Zen Arado: a kind of denial of it
Zen Arado: acceptance means admitting it first
Zen Arado: yeh true too Arch
Bertram Jacobus: ah. that´s it zen : the understanding of that word ("fight") : my impression is, there are also very integrated methods of "fighting" - very much so in the asian cultures - as teak wan do, ju do (that all means "path" (do) - as we may know) and so on ...
Zen Arado: but we don't know until we get it I guess
Archmage Atlantis: Bert, for me, both the Western and the Asian viewpoints are often incomplete in and of theirselves
Bertram Jacobus: the dedication of the samurai (!) they even don´t fear the death while protecting their masters, people, whatever ... hm -
Bertram Jacobus: devotion i meant sry
Zen Arado: they used Zen to develop that kind of fearlessness too didn't they Bert?
Archmage Atlantis: Accept the fear, and still keep faith
Bertram Jacobus: yes zen (!)
Archmage Atlantis: Admit the situation, but still work to resolve it or improve it if possible
Zen Arado: we have to separate the actual death from the pain it might involve
Zen Arado: yes Arch
Bertram Jacobus: but acceptance solves such problems
Zen Arado: though we can fear both
Zen Arado: if I could say I am happy living another 20 years but also happy if I die tomorrow
Bertram Jacobus: that would be perfect !
Zen Arado: actually I can also fear living too long with my condition
Bertram Jacobus: very much so
Zen Arado: being helpless and in an old people's home
Bertram Jacobus: but again : acceptance can solve all this
Zen Arado: yes
Bertram Jacobus: or as the buddha said : stopping greeding ;-)
Zen Arado: at least I have had it gradually
Zen Arado: some have a stroke or something and get it suddenly
Bertram Jacobus: what means stopping wanting - so far as i understand that - because then you are no more seperated and so the suffering can end as it seems ...
Zen Arado: yes desire for more than what we have
Bertram Jacobus: yes. or less ;-)

Hindrances:

Zen Arado: boredom and restlessness
Zen Arado: was thinking about that
Bertram Jacobus: in the tibetan teachings sometimes restlessness and being asleep are explained as the main meditation hindrances ...
Bertram Jacobus: (being sleepy - sry)
Zen Arado: yes...I was listenig to talks on this the other day
Bertram Jacobus: oh cool ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: or - great ! :-)
Zen Arado: http://www.tricycle.com/online-retre...ive-hindrances
Bertram Jacobus: phantastic, wonderful, healing often ... inspiring ...
Zen Arado: sleepiness is a problem for me at retreats
Archmage Atlantis: On another topic, I see you are still leading weekly voice meditations at PP, Bert.......I hope I will be able to attend sometime in the near future.
Bertram Jacobus: on the one hand there are some methods to handle sleepyness, at least a bit, on the other hand we often notice on retraets how much exhausted we are - and then we must simply sleep for a while and get our power back
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: some people have such busy stressful lives that when they go to retreats their body says...time to sleep now
Zen Arado: or it could be that your mind doesn't want to face sometning that is coming up
Bertram Jacobus: yes, right arch. especially zen supports those weekly meditation sessions very much simply in coming VERY regulary - and others also come, sometimes more, sometimes less, but when i didn´t do it for some weeks always people asked to continue that. so i´m happy to do so and enjoy it very much also for myself
Archmage Atlantis: That is good :)
Bertram Jacobus: ah - i think when the mind doesn´t want to face things, there are various stategies of it - the sleepyness seems to be a signal in my opinion of in fact being tired - which can also be from stressful mental things
Zen Arado: I don't sleep well in a strange place too
Zen Arado: and they don't give you long to sleeep
Bertram Jacobus: and the regular meditation is really also a great support for me arch - so i´m very thankful for every participant ...
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. that´s right - on retreats sometimes the shedules are very intense
Zen Arado: it is important to sit with friends on a regular basis to stimulate your normal daily sitting
Archmage Atlantis: Agree, Zen
Zen Arado: I could be at a 6 day retreat atm but I didn't go
Zen Arado: it is getting too difficulkt for me
Zen Arado: not the meditation
Zen Arado: the disabled facilities aren't good enough
Zen Arado: but I have been to may over the last 6 years
Zen Arado: two already this year
Zen Arado: I think the intensity of silent retreats is helpful for our practice
Bertram Jacobus: *agreed*

Disabled Facilities:

Archmage Atlantis: The thing I find is that because physically disabled ppl are disabled in different ways, even well planned disabled facilities can pose some challenge......never mind the "normal" facilities
Zen Arado: yes and so much variation in disailities
Archmage Atlantis: I know I'll never be able to make another plane trip or long car trip
Archmage Atlantis: Just the way it is
Archmage Atlantis: :)
Zen Arado: no disabled accessibel shower isn't nice
Zen Arado: have to wash myself at a sink
Zen Arado: beds too low
Archmage Atlantis: I supppose that trip to Mars is out also *grin*
Zen Arado: difficult to transfer to wheelchair again
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: next life maybe
Archmage Atlantis: Chuckle.....the last hospital I was in the toilets were too low, and the equipment to raise the seat wasn't adequate.....staying at home is a blessing, actually :)
Zen Arado: I had a terrible time at hospital with facilities
Zen Arado: I couldn't even get up from the bed
Archmage Atlantis: Well, time for me to feed the creatures who live with me......Blessings and Namste.....thank you both for the fellowship this day.
Archmage Atlantis: Bye
Zen Arado: and it was too high to transfer to wheelchair
Bertram Jacobus: bye arch ! :-)
Zen Arado: bye Arch
Zen Arado: you would think hospitals would ave disabled facilities but they don't
Bertram Jacobus: thats - what would be the right word ? weird, strange, odd ? :-)
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: I had to train the nurses how commode chairs work
Bertram Jacobus: bad ? sad ? ;;-)
Zen Arado: yeh both
Bertram Jacobus: yes - may it become better in future, as fast as possible !
Zen Arado: I had to sit on the bed for hours some mornings before nurses had time to help me to wheelchair
Zen Arado: hospitals are getting worse I think
Zen Arado: so much cutbacks in spending
Zen Arado: too many pld people nowadays
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t like such thoughs sry and don´t want them. but i don´t mean with that ignorance ... hm
Zen Arado: old*
Bertram Jacobus: i only would like to support even with nice thoughts the reality - whether that works ? i hope ...
Zen Arado: are better in Germany I thik
Bertram Jacobus: ah yes. that may be right ... but bah : should be everywhere better !
Zen Arado: well I am only saying what I found
Zen Arado: and it was surprising to me
Bertram Jacobus: and fitting, to the situations, developments and such ...
Zen Arado: yes
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t doubt your words zen
Zen Arado: technology is better
Zen Arado: I should be doing something to make it better
Bertram Jacobus: i only like to say : wouldn´t it be helpful to try to create as much constructive thoughts as possible ? although always according to reality - a real challenge i find very often (!)
Zen Arado: write a letter to the hospital manager
Bertram Jacobus: yeah
Zen Arado: agree Bert
Bertram Jacobus: :-))
Bertram Jacobus: okay - enough for the moment - i will rest a bit ...
Bertram Jacobus: tyvm for everything zen ...
Zen Arado: thanks for coming Bwert :)
Bertram Jacobus: and have a nice time till we meet again pls ! :-)
Zen Arado: you too :)
Bertram Jacobus: *gassho*
Zen Arado: gassho
Zen Arado: _/!\_