The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

Bleu Oleander, Eliza Madrigal, Storm Nordwind, Rhiannon Dragoone and Raffila Millgrove joined me tonight

Quite the range of topics were touched on tonight:

Dogs, Cats and Allergies

PaB 4 years ago and 8 years ahead

How PaB has changed us

PaB agoraphobic

build quality in SL

Equanimity

Fear

Bleu Oleander: hi steve :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Evening Bleu
Bleu Oleander: how are you?
stevenaia Michinaga: I am doing well, I think spring has arrived, our rose bushes have their first bud
Bleu Oleander: oh nice
Bleu Oleander: yes, my allergies have arrived :)
stevenaia Michinaga: That is always unfortunte
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: not too bad this year though
stevenaia Michinaga: for some reason I though you were in a hot dry climate
stevenaia Michinaga: prevents things from growing
Bleu Oleander: I am ... but that brings different allergies
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
stevenaia Michinaga: I think my only allergy at the moment is my cat
Bleu Oleander: aww
Bleu Oleander: my dogs too probably
stevenaia Michinaga: but cats know this
Bleu Oleander: ha!
stevenaia Michinaga: the seek you out
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: I love cats but never had one
stevenaia Michinaga: I had up to three at a time
stevenaia Michinaga: but they grew old
Bleu Oleander: too bad they have such short lives
Bleu Oleander: dogs too
stevenaia Michinaga: now I only have one, they are wonderful to watch
Bleu Oleander: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: they see things, sometimes they even see nothing
stevenaia Michinaga: my favorite cat connection was for a time my eyes locked with my cats eyes for a very long time
Bleu Oleander: nice
stevenaia Michinaga: eventually I felt this strange connection
Bleu Oleander: I can do that with one of my dogs
Bleu Oleander: it's really nice
stevenaia Michinaga: and then as if to toff me aside, he looked away and began staring at a blank wall with equal intensity
Bleu Oleander: haha!
stevenaia Michinaga: *toss
stevenaia Michinaga: hello eliza
Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello
stevenaia Michinaga: nice of you to drop in
stevenaia Michinaga: did you take the train?
Eliza Madrigal: In this case no :)
Bleu Oleander: you're still in your party outfit?
Eliza Madrigal: losing pieces bit by bit
Eliza Madrigal: cupcakes... then crown...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: hard to stop partying
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Bleu Oleander: i found cold turkey easier this year
Bleu Oleander: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: only one more year until the 5th
Eliza Madrigal grins... we can start planning now
Bleu Oleander: fun to think what this next year will bring
Eliza Madrigal: I think about that often... what will pab be like in say, 3 years.. 8 was a bit far to imagine
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: hi Storm :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm :)
Eliza Madrigal: when I ask myself... think more blendings with RL.. but not sure what that means
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Storm
Storm Nordwind: Hi everyone!
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, a group of closer aligned souls
stevenaia Michinaga: much to learn from each other
stevenaia Michinaga: I keep thinking of how different 4 years ago was
Eliza Madrigal: what stands out most?
stevenaia Michinaga: how the more doors you open, the more doors you see to be opened ahead
Eliza Madrigal: :)

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: Shall we use the next 90 seconds to consider what the next year may bring
Storm Nordwind noticed the ribbon decided to fade a long time before anything else happened
Eliza Madrigal: it is a nicely timed cue
stevenaia Michinaga: seems there is always time to refine the ribbon
Eliza Madrigal: I was noticing today that I am bolder due to PaB involvement..
Bleu Oleander: bolder?
Storm Nordwind: I like that, but do you think that's good? :)
Bleu Oleander: in sl or rl?
Eliza Madrigal: saw a guy doing tai chi in the park today, and before I knew it I was next to him talking... was never like that before...
Eliza Madrigal: in RL
Eliza Madrigal: I am far more direct in RL than I used to be
Eliza Madrigal: even if awkward... just kind of go with it
Bleu Oleander: ah yes, I feel I am also in rl too
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: do you?
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: how so? in questions with people, or?
Bleu Oleander: more friendly, more open maybe
Eliza Madrigal: :))
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, practicing dropping always leaves room for more openness
stevenaia Michinaga: the nature of emptyness... something finds a way in to fill the void
stevenaia Michinaga: I appreciate that more and more
Eliza Madrigal: ah, seeing space where there didn't seem to be before?
stevenaia Michinaga: seeing content where there was empty space a moment ago
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Do you think the 'friendliness' is SL in general, or PaB explorations?
Bleu Oleander: I would have to say PaB more than SL in general for me
stevenaia Michinaga: 'friendliness' is nothing new, it's the freinds that are new in SL
Bleu Oleander: but I'm not involved with too many groups in sl
Eliza Madrigal nods... I think it is PaB for me too... although I'm involved with other groups, PaB is what brings me to really hm, 'engage' in a certain way
stevenaia Michinaga: and I mostly am a PaB agoraphobe, I don;t wonder much through Sl as I did in the past
Eliza Madrigal: hah
Eliza Madrigal: PaB agoraphobe
Bleu Oleander: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: maybe I wonder to Storm's land now and then
Storm Nordwind: :) You're always welcome!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: What about you Storm? Any difference you think?
Storm Nordwind: Hmm...
Storm Nordwind: I'm more relaxed. Less seeking.
Storm Nordwind: Though I'm not sure that's entirely to do with PaB (though it is in part)
stevenaia Michinaga: Less seeking in what sence?
stevenaia Michinaga: traveling around SL?
Storm Nordwind: Ah well I don't do as much of that, true. But that's mostly because the average build quality has gone down.
Storm Nordwind: But I meant seeking as in "spiritual quest", I guess
Eliza Madrigal: that's really interesting
Bleu Oleander: why do you think the build quality has gone down?

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: are people using other platforms?
Storm Nordwind: because many quality builders have fled
Bleu Oleander: where are they?
stevenaia Michinaga: do you seek less (Spirit=ually) because you found much of what you were looking for?
Storm Nordwind: My guess, Bleu, is that they're doing other things in RL, rather than on different VR platforms
Storm Nordwind: Steve, I guess that must be the case, yes
Bleu Oleander: designing games maybe?
Storm Nordwind: Let's hope so Bleu!
Eliza Madrigal: well a lot of people have moved to apps and such things... more focus bringing tech with people ... that's part of my question re RL PaB... ah, and yes games too
Storm Nordwind: I will say one thing though - the standard of SL artists has, i think improved... or rather replicated in more qulaity people. But I think that's an exception
Eliza Madrigal: :) nice to hear
Bleu Oleander: hi Rhi :)
Eliza Madrigal: am thinking... guess I have less 'gadzooks!' addiction than I used to also
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Rhiannon
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Rhi, welcome
Storm Nordwind waves
Rhiannon Dragoone waves at storm
Rhiannon Dragoone: hey! Who took the fire away?
Storm Nordwind: ?!
stevenaia Michinaga: I forget why there was a fire in the fountain for a bit
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: There was a fire righ there; that's why I chose this spot. It's still chilly, een though it's spring
Bleu Oleander: :) gadzooks addiction
Rhiannon Dragoone: And steve looks chilly too
stevenaia Michinaga: Dressing for the spring I am prending has arrived
Eliza Madrigal: :) it isn't 'gone' but it surely has less hold (re gadzooks addiction)
Eliza Madrigal: hah
Bleu Oleander: :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, I almost wish it were still winter; it was warmer then. lol
Storm Nordwind: Yesterday's snow has melted here and we'll be back in the 70s
Bleu Oleander: upper 80s here
stevenaia Michinaga: so Eliza, the newness and uniqueness is less and less?
Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, I like the '70's The Eagles, especially
Eliza Madrigal: well... suppose more evenness...
Bleu Oleander: :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Hi Rafilla
Bleu Oleander: hi Raffi
Eliza Madrigal: imagine it may be similar to what Storm may describe..?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Raffi :)
Raffila Millgrove: hi everyone. wow the time really .. escaped me. nearly missed you all.
Rhiannon Dragoone: I'm lucky I could come at all; got off work early
Storm Nordwind: "Upekkha" Eliza?
Raffila Millgrove: Upekkha?
Eliza Madrigal: nice term Storm
Bleu Oleander: what is "upekka"?
Storm Nordwind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upekkha
Storm Nordwind: Equanimity
Eliza Madrigal nods
Rhiannon Dragoone: I lost my equinimity when I started worrying if I had balqnced everything right
Storm Nordwind: One of the so-called "Four immeasurables".
Eliza Madrigal: yes, quite different from what tends to be promoted as an idea of balance...
Eliza Madrigal: of being organized or something like that
Rhiannon Dragoone: Yes, all joking aside, it's calmness more than anything else
Raffila Millgrove: inner equispoise mm that rolls around so nicely in the mouth.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Calmness in the face of adversity, chaos, etc.
Raffila Millgrove: equipoise. sp.
Eliza Madrigal: beautiful word too
Eliza Madrigal: :) Pila pointed out what seemed obvious to me now... equine - horse..
Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, oh, steve vanished.
Rhiannon Dragoone: WElcome back, steve
Rhiannon Dragoone: Thought your flowers may have pushed you into the air for bees to get
Raffila Millgrove: Epicurians.. Robust tranquility. NIce!
stevenaia Michinaga: thx
Storm Nordwind: I think equus and equi are similar sounding but different roots, Eliza (or so says Skeat)

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: ah, thanks , there are a few interesting books and teachers who work with horses and describe noticing chi and that kind of thing..
Eliza Madrigal: (sorry re bell)
Raffila Millgrove: Epicurean sp. Raffi mutters not a good day for me mentally. sighing.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: equinimity, I heard that word here first that I noticed, which stuck me as strange that it took so long
Storm Nordwind: I can imagine Eliza. And just the word "poise" is lovely Raffi - I remember that being my first impression after Tai Chi classes.
Eliza Madrigal: it is almost a group focus right now... keeps coming up in different places with different avatars :) interesting when it happens
Raffila Millgrove: yeah i love sound of equipoise. inner poised.. so lovely.. having your act together inside.. robust tranquility.. that too. love the contrast.. we don't think of tranquil as robust. almost poetic turn of phrase.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, we're in times of crisis (unlike any other time, of course), and people seek equinimity
Eliza Madrigal: Yes @ Raffi!
Eliza Madrigal: true Rhi... peace of mind I guess
Raffila Millgrove: will comment that this inner poise for Epicureans came from not worrying anymore about heaven or hell.. giving up thoughts of afterlife.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Interesting; a lot of medieval and some moderns achieved the same effect by the notion of eternity.
Raffila Millgrove is currently thinking about whether she wants to give up her heaven or not.. and thinking.. no.. believe i like the construct too much. the comfort of it.. to let go.
Rhiannon Dragoone: heh, can't help thinking of th escene in the Terminator, where Sarah O'Connor is having job stress and someone says to her, "don't sweat it; who will care in fifty years." lol!
Raffila Millgrove: well it was the concept in place at the time of medieval.. that made this thinking so dangerous. because people had no control.. over their judgement.. and that fear was a major button the the church pushed non stop. Fear fear fear. very powerful.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Raf, yeah; but that was the church, not the afterlife
Raffila Millgrove: i mean their final judgement. which way would it go.. hell or heaven.
Raffila Millgrove: yes but the church used their version of afterlife. as major motivator. gained huge sums of money from this concept.
Storm Nordwind: Fear is still the weapon of choice for politicians, salesmen and church ministers.
Raffila Millgrove: huge money in this... trying to insure your heaven ..
stevenaia Michinaga: considering all the religions, hell is fairly recent
Eliza Madrigal erases her line because Storm said it better :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Storm, well it's basic persuasian theory to talk in terms of away froms
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Bleu Oleander: :) Eliza (have done that many times)
Storm Nordwind: perhaps that's why salesmen have such a hard time with me! ;)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Obama used the three away from strategy very well. Unemployment, terrorism, and universal health insurance. Perfect. and it worked too.
Bleu Oleander: because your lines are better Storm?
Raffila Millgrove: the power of taking your life here.. for heresy.. for contradicting church doctrine.. about heaven-hell. this was powerful weapon against anyone thinking outloud on the topic of no afterlife.
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: it is related though, that sense of 'giving up' and equanimity...
Eliza Madrigal: a kind of opting out
Rhiannon Dragoone: Storm, well, a good salesman would know that you're a move toward not an away from, and would motivate you that way
Storm Nordwind: No Bleu. Because fear is not found in me. :)
Bleu Oleander: just teasing
Raffila Millgrove: Storm, you really think.. that you are fear free.. that you don't occassionally have to fight fear?
Storm Nordwind: No I don't have to fight fear
stevenaia Michinaga: Storm, do you ever think that perhaps I should be in fer of something, but wonder why you are not
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, there are two types of living strategies, those based on fear and those based on love
Storm Nordwind: That never occurs to me Steve
Rhiannon Dragoone: They both work. Zweig and Trump are examples.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, Rhi
Raffila Millgrove: you don't have to have fear rule your life.. to occasionally feel a twinge of it--it's so basic.. it's hard wired.. it's what protects us.. keeps us surviving.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Zweig was born in dire poverty, has been avoiding it ever since. He's now a billionaire, and is still avoiding it.
stevenaia Michinaga: I often do, scratch my head and move on
Rhiannon Dragoone: Trump loved to build buildings, still is building, and is a billionaire
Rhiannon Dragoone: Fear and love both work
Rhiannon Dragoone: Love feels better though, and you usually know when you have the love object. Zweig still feels poor
Raffila Millgrove: a totally fearless person. I feel like they are likely to be dead. Example: you fear being run over by a car.. so you don't run into street.. that is a type of fear. a conditioned fear that protects us.
Rhiannon Dragoone: How much money is enough? Well, you have to know the anser to that
Storm Nordwind: Fear is a basic survival instinct. But you can outgrow it. You can survive full well without it. And feel better for it.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Fear is a good thing, Raf, I agree. It keeps us safe.
Raffila Millgrove: I disagree. on growing out of fear. you pick and chose.. which types benefit and which are destructive and let go of the destructive fear. my view only.
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm not sure Rhi
Storm Nordwind: It A thing that CAN keep us safe. Or it can be destructive. Or we can simply use raw awareness
Rhiannon Dragoone: steve, a limit of text, not sure of what? Since i said a couple of things.
stevenaia Michinaga: it's a good thing for some
Eliza Madrigal: I think this has to do with layers of ego, in a sense... there may be a certain layer of ego that experiences a certain kind of fear... but that's just a theory
Eliza Madrigal: and perhaps an 'antiquated' layer
Storm Nordwind: I can't comment generally. All I know it's possible for at least me. And i suspect it's possible and maybe even cultivatable for others - who knows?
stevenaia Michinaga: not sure I agree that fear is a good thing..
Raffila Millgrove: fear you don't need--what will other people think of me if i do something i think is good or important for me to do.
Eliza Madrigal: so re adaptation it may fall away
Rhiannon Dragoone: oh, ok, steve. I think it is when it's rational.
Rhiannon Dragoone: De Gavin, in the Gift of Fear, listed a number of mass murder incidents which wouldn't have happened, if people lisetened to their fears.
Raffila Millgrove: totally agree RHI about de Gavin and women's need to be liked.
Rhiannon Dragoone: He also recommended blind folding yoursel fand walking to your house, and experiencing safety.

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: nite everyone :)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Raf, yes, predators prey on that
Storm Nordwind: Fear is based on what - possible pain, damage, loss, death? Sullying of reputation? Loss of material wealth? None of these things have importance or reality to me.
Rhiannon Dragoone: nite, Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: Night Bleu
Storm Nordwind waves
Eliza Madrigal: (me too)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Storm, what about fear of being raped? NO reality for you, maybe, but most women live with that
Eliza Madrigal: hugs all
Raffila Millgrove: he says we are the only animal.. that will walk into a locked steel cage with a stranger we sense is dangerous (getting on elevator) really impressive example of ignoring basic fear instinct.
Rhiannon Dragoone: nite, Eliza
Rhiannon Dragoone: Raf, yeah, but he also points out that most of the time we are safe. So he doesn't want to exaggerate it.
Raffila Millgrove: yeah but.. i think.. he is such a great teacher.. for safety .. for women.
Raffila Millgrove: rational.. not over reactive. clear .. fine advice.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Raf, oh, I *totally* agree with that, Raf \
Rhiannon Dragoone: That's why I brought him up--fear makes us safe is his point
Rhiannon Dragoone: If we listen to it.
Rhiannon Dragoone: If it controls us? Maybe not.
Raffila Millgrove: yes. and my point as well. perfect illstration for what i was commenting on. ty.
Raffila Millgrove: fear that protects, vs fear that destructs.
Rhiannon Dragoone: ur welcome. I thought it was, too. A perfect illustratioin of your point
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, I know this guy, gentle as a lamb, but he's 6' 3" and full of muscle. He was walking in Shrewsbury, England once, and a little man saw him, and was rivited to the spot. Like a mongoose hypnotized by a cobra.
Raffila Millgrove: might add that we so often assign a quality to an emotion: Fear is bad. When in fact. .it's what we do with those emotions.. like messages or tools we can use.. can be good. bad, neutral. we have power to use them to our best advantages. if we are self aware.
Rhiannon Dragoone: And the guy broke out in hysteria when my acquaintance asked him for directions to the police station
Raffila Millgrove: lol
Rhiannon Dragoone: That kind of fear, that freezes you againt a possible predtor, is not good
Rhiannon Dragoone: Or makes you think a gentle soul is dangerous too.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Yeah, I agree, Raf, emotions like fear give us information.
Rhiannon Dragoone: We then decide what to do with that.
Rhiannon Dragoone: They say there are two responses to fear, but there are really four, three of which are good, on, imho, is bad.
Raffila Millgrove: i think we react very fast.. and sometimes.. we want to say.. stop/wait.. could you think on this first.. is that really what you want to do/to feel?
Rhiannon Dragoone: You can fight, flee, appease (the 3rd), or you can freeze. That's bad in my opinion The other 3 depend on your judgment
Raffila Millgrove: yeah that too. the paralized.. that's never a good spot to be in...
Rhiannon Dragoone: Raf, yeah, but it brings up the old Jack Benny joke. "You're money or your life!" "I'm thinking it over."
Raffila Millgrove: frozen.. lol
Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah. Paralyzed with fear.
Rhiannon Dragoone: NOt good, but all too common without training.
Storm Nordwind: But you can fight, flee or appease without experiencing fear. Your awareness and intelligence instantaneously suggest those are the natural ways forward, right?
Raffila Millgrove: yeah you see that in people. that deer in the headlights look..
Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah. And the deer gets it every time.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Anything would be better. Run like hell. Cooperate (appease). Fight, even if you can't win. Anything but the deer in the headlight
stevenaia Michinaga: there are fears, such as standing in front of a room that paralyzed, but can be overcome with practice
Raffila Millgrove: so often people tell you this story. where some person.. a boss. a friend.. a nieghbor.. wife etc. they say something.. that is so shocking to the other guy.. that they just are paralized. And you ask--so what did you reply. and they say.. I dunno. I couldn't think what to say til later. i couldn't believe it.
stevenaia Michinaga: giving a presentation
Rhiannon Dragoone: yeah, steve; that's what I meant by training.
Storm Nordwind: And some, like me, are fortunate to be able to stand up in front of two or three or hundreds without training and not bother.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Storm, yes, that is fortunate. And part of good training would be to find a guy like you and tell your students, 'See him? Model him.'
stevenaia Michinaga: I'm sure that wasn't a skill you were born with, was it?
Raffila Millgrove: common thing i have noticed. YOu are in a group. one person.. seriously insults another person. and later the insulted party says to friends--why'd you just stand there. why didn't you .. defend me.. help me. And the other guys always say same thing--I couldn't believe it happened. whole group gets frozen.
Storm Nordwind: Then I'd tell them about how to achieve equanimity! And they'd all drift away! ;-)
Rhiannon Dragoone: Raf, yeah. Good example
Rhiannon Dragoone: Or sometimes, it's worse, like when you see a fight or an assault on the street. Everyone freezes.
Raffila Millgrove: people sometimes witness crime--all say same thing on why they didn't help. couldn't bleieve it was happening. froze up.
Raffila Millgrove: yes.
Raffila Millgrove: snap
Rhiannon Dragoone: Equinimity is not inconsistent with acting on fear. You are supposed to be so tranquillized you can't act
Rhiannon Dragoone: *not
Raffila Millgrove: yes.. presumably you have an inner calm that isn't shaken. maybe this is what STrom was referring to.
Storm Nordwind: Nor is acting in emergency, for example, consistent with needing to act from fear. You can act positively without the fear
Rhiannon Dragoone: That is true; you can act from love or fear.
Storm Nordwind: You can act from awareness. From poise. From kindness. From compassion. Many things.
Rhiannon Dragoone: Awareness of danger comes from fear. ::smiles::
Storm Nordwind: No
Storm Nordwind: It can
Storm Nordwind: But not necessarily

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: i think awareness of danger comes from intuitive fear.... but you have to process it fast--and make decision.. you dont' want to Act in fear. or you might be paralized or do something very stupid. you have to hear the fear message then turn off the emotion immediately. I see it as a message.. not an ongoing state of being. or you'll end up hurt/dead in true danger. you have to have wits about you. with fear.. you don't have your wits.
Storm Nordwind: i do not need fear to know that the edge of a cliff is dangerous! This happened to me on the last paB retreat on Vashon Island. We went up a lighthouse and the guard rail at the top was below my knee! So I knelt down. But not out of fear!
Rhiannon Dragoone: Well, I"m *afraid* it's time for me to go. lol
stevenaia Michinaga: Night all, thank you joining me tonight
Raffila Millgrove: that is because you already know Storm that a low fence requires... caution. we are talking of the suddeness.. the presentation of an unknown or a shock.
Rhiannon Dragoone: ty, steve
Storm Nordwind: Good to see you all. Thank you for your hospitality Steve!
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Raffila Millgrove: bye Rhiannon, Stever. Strom.
Rhiannon Dragoone: bye Raf!
Rhiannon Dragoone: bye, Storm; enjoyed your observations
Storm Nordwind smiles and bows