2012.04.14 13:00 - Theme session: Topic-centered Sessions

The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray - who is still looking for his lasso and wondering why he's doing that, but also happy to discuss it, if folks are interested.

Bruce Mowbray: Hi there!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya
Aphrodite Macbain: How are you doing?

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: Can you see any twisters out your window?
Bruce Mowbray: Nope, the twisters might show up a few hundred miles west of here though.
Bruce Mowbray: big bad warnings in the media for the Midwest today.
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Raffi!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Raffi
Aphrodite Macbain: Wow, Have you been to Japan?
Raffila Millgrove: hi
Aphrodite Macbain: Lovely dress/kimono?
Raffila Millgrove: no i was offering an auction item... of immersion on SL Japanese culture.
Raffila Millgrove: so i was dressed in kimono.
Aphrodite Macbain: where were you doing this?
Raffila Millgrove: one of the groups i am in. fundraiser auction.
Aphrodite Macbain: ON SL! Cool What are the funds being raised for?
Raffila Millgrove: maintaining the sim. they do it twice a year.
Bruce Mowbray is getting ideas for fundraising in PaB.
Aphrodite Macbain: Did you get the notices regarding theme sessions Raffila?
Raffila Millgrove: yes.
Aphrodite Macbain: Do you have an ideas or thoughts on this?
Raffila Millgrove: well i had really a question.
Raffila Millgrove: rather than a thought.
Bruce Mowbray listens for Raffi's question.
Raffila Millgrove: so.. what my question is... related to this....
Raffila Millgrove: why.. what prompted this.. idea.. of the topic related.. what's behind this...is my question.
Aphrodite Macbain: theme related? It is a continuation of what had been done in the past and that has fallen off quite a bit
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Riddle
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Riddle
Aphrodite Macbain: Riddle has been around for a while- perhaps he can tell you
Riddle Sideways: Hi all
Aphrodite Macbain: waves at Riddle
Raffila Millgrove: no that's ok. i understand that answer. that's fine.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Eliza
Aphrodite Macbain: with her rabbit slippers
Bruce Mowbray: Hey there, Eliza!
Riddle Sideways: might be low on answers today
Aphrodite Macbain: aww. are you generally just low?
Riddle Sideways: :}
Eliza Madrigal: Hello :)
Riddle Sideways: Hi eLisa
Eliza Madrigal: :)) waves
Bruce Mowbray: We've just begun discussing topic-centered session, Eliza.
Aphrodite Macbain: Glad to see u still have your wings
Eliza Madrigal: taking me a moment to rezz... everyone is grey. Sorry to be late
Riddle Sideways: topic of topics
Bruce Mowbray: listening to Raffi at the moment -- she says she originally raised this question for PaB meetings.
Bruce Mowbray listens for more.
Aphrodite Macbain: Are you asking why PaB has these discussions in the first place Raffi?
Raffila Millgrove: no i just asked what is behind it... and you said a return to past. when topics were more often.. themed for the meets.  that's all
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen
Raffila Millgrove: no i asked why.. did you want this return.. what prompted the idea.
Riddle Sideways: Hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Zen.
Aphrodite Macbain: People had been asking for it. Wanted more than idle chit chat and onigokko
Raffila Millgrove nods.
Eliza Madrigal: I can take some heat for the topic ... though I also love chit chat and onigokko
Aphrodite Macbain: something that relates to the values and intentions of PaB
Bruce Mowbray feels it's not worth reading the logs unless there's a bit of red meat there.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: no heat, Eliza. . . . I am delighted that the question has been raised -- regardless of who may have raised it.
Zen Arado: relogging
Eliza Madrigal: It can sound like it is a return to the past that is being asked for, but I think it is more a questioning of the present
Bruce Mowbray: cool, Zen .... np.
Aphrodite Macbain: I learn a lot from people here - especially around Buddhist practices, meditation, philosophy
Raffila Millgrove: "regardless of 'who' may have raised it. .."  What does that mean Bruce.. that's an odd statement.
Riddle Sideways: wb
Bruce Mowbray: It means, I feel that the issue of topics in discussions needs to be discussed -- and that it does not matter to me who raised that issue to be discussed.
Eliza Madrigal: wb Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: A number of comments have been made recently about the quality of the discussions around the fountain.
Bruce Mowbray: wb, Zen.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: ty all for honoring the drop.
Eliza Madrigal: it is sort of tied into the recording of sessions, as Bruce mentions... what are we recording... what are we 'guarding' as guardians
Zen Arado: I often have a serious topic in mind in my sessions but feel that the people there would prefer to have fun and chit chat
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I have felt that also, Zen.
Riddle Sideways: sometimes
Bruce Mowbray: and it's delightful for the play and chit chat to happen, but -- what ARE we guarding?
Aphrodite Macbain: Play as Being is a group of people exploring reality by using our own life as a laboratory. A thought experiment to see what is left if we put down what we have. Can we make conjectures, hypotheses about what Being could be, and play with those in our day-to-day life? What happens when we do?
Zen Arado: when I say serious I mean deeper
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray: yes, focused with intent.
Aphrodite Macbain: This description of PAB gives a summary for why we have these meetings
Aphrodite Macbain: to explore reality
Bruce Mowbray: ty Aph for that quote.... That's really our philosophical raison d'etre -- our Principle Statement, if you will.
Aphrodite Macbain: Best place to start!
Bruce Mowbray: Being real?
Zen Arado: on the other hand, lately I have felt that I am just juggling with words and definitions and concepts and I will never get anywhere doing that, and is there anywhere to get to anyway?
Bruce Mowbray: How about starting right there, Zen?
Eliza Madrigal: it never works to try to 'make' meetings serious, and some of the most meaningful conversations we've had have sometimes sprung from very light banter, however there is a kind of almost avoiding of topics sometimes
Zen Arado: And also, some people hold on to their ideas and concepts very tightly and can become offended if you challenge them
Bruce Mowbray: Sometimes Pabbers as a group tend to behave as an individual behaves. . . .
Eliza Madrigal listens
Riddle Sideways: just like life
Bruce Mowbray: avoidance, perhaps, and seeking release valves....
Zen Arado: I agree with Eliza
Bruce Mowbray recalls that sometimes folks who have tried to "impose" their seriousness have soon thereafter left PaB for good.
Aphrodite Macbain: We can find all sorts of reasons for why these discussions may not always be useful , but do we want to do away with the conversations completely. Are we just going to be a social group?
Aphrodite Macbain: We can find a balance between the fun and social stuff and the more serious material
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zen Arado: I feel there are two main types of enquiry... People who want to get assistance and advice with coping with their problems and then the deeper issue, something like "what is this"?
Bruce Mowbray: It seems to me that guardians could at least Ask whether there are "concerns" that individuals might have -- that the whole group might be able to discuss and "give help and advice" with....
Riddle Sideways: perhaps your reality is different, but playing and learning and Being which has a light side is mine
Zen Arado: The former may be useful but the latter is what spiritual enquiry is to me
Aphrodite Macbain: Zen, is there a problem with having both types of inquiry?
Bruce Mowbray: so, sort of like Absolute Bodhichitta and Relative Bodhichitta, Zen?
Bruce Mowbray: (sry.... I've been reading 7 Points again).
Aphrodite Macbain: Can we not be inclusive?
Zen Arado: no Aph, but most people seem to prefer the former more useful type
Aphrodite Macbain: not everyone Zen
Eliza Madrigal: some basic courtesies perhaps... agree Bruce... think that is the heart... are we making room for serious concerns and sharing
Zen Arado: in my experience anyway
Bruce Mowbray ponders "useful" -- because he is VERY pragmatic about "his" Buddhism.
Eliza Madrigal: not imposing but inviting consciously
Aphrodite Macbain: People are interested; when I did those sessions on happiness and wu wei, lots of people came
Eliza Madrigal: "tending" "cultivating"
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: yes I think people enjoy those and also give something to invite friends from outside of pab to
Bruce Mowbray: nurturing.
Aphrodite Macbain: tending and cultivating inquiry?
Riddle Sideways: yes, when announced ahead of time, the theme worked
Zen Arado: maybe it is because I find my non-dual perspective does not lead anywhere, nor happiness or enlightenment or bless to be found
Aphrodite Macbain: so that is a means to an end which worked
Bruce Mowbray: tending and cultivating and nurturing inquiry into something like "happiness," Aph.
Eliza Madrigal: the discussion also springs from few visitors staying lately, and more sessions being unhosted, it is a concerning trend
Aphrodite Macbain: people get bored or isolated
Bruce Mowbray: Those are mostly 1 a.m. sessions, aren't they?
Aphrodite Macbain: they cannot relate
Bruce Mowbray: Mmmmm.
Aphrodite Macbain: No not just those, Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: also a 1pm and two 7pms
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps guardians need to be more sensitive to "inclusion" of non-participants.
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bruce Mowbray: hnmnmnmnmn
Aphrodite Macbain: that's a means to an end too. But let's first be clear about what the "end' or purpose is
Zen Arado: it depends what you mean by inclusion?
Aphrodite Macbain: People don't understand references to things.
Zen Arado: I don't think being has any end or purpose
Aphrodite Macbain: Non guardians are not aware of a lot of Guardian issues
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps "starting at the end" would be one place to begin: Play as Being is a group of people exploring reality by using our own life as a laboratory. A thought experiment to see what is left if we put down what we have. Can we make conjectures, hypotheses about what Being could be, and play with those in our day-to-day life? What happens when we do?
Zen Arado: otherwise we could just define it and there is nothing left to talk about?
Bruce Mowbray: define Being?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: Exactly
Bruce Mowbray: :)))
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't think there are many people who hold that view, Zen
Zen Arado: that is what I am saying Aph
Eliza Madrigal: as a practical matter, often I introduce PaB to someone and when they happen to visit the feedback I receive is "I thought you said it was a meditative community"
Aphrodite Macbain: (that there is nothing left to talk about)
Bruce Mowbray: well if Zen holds that view (perhaps) -- then that's worth looking at.... (IMHO)
Zen Arado: that it is not definable
Riddle Sideways: /ribbon Being
Zen Arado: I often notice that people don't bother to read what I'm saying also
Aphrodite Macbain: but we have to be open to other views if this is a successful laboratory
Zen Arado: perhaps they think I'm talking weird gibberish
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm. So here we are. . . being. . . . and encountering all this stuff in our personal lives.....  If  that's not worth talking about, what is?

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: No more than anyone else Zen
Aphrodite Macbain: What are you suggesting we do Zen? (or not do)
Bruce Mowbray really does feel that he understands Eliza's point about "meditative communities."
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Zen Arado: Actually, lately I have been noticing the obsession with thoughts I have, with defining and thinking, and really existence is indefinable and inexplicable
Zen Arado: thinking is fun but maybe I/we do too much of it
Aphrodite Macbain: That sounds like an excellent topic for conversation Zen
Zen Arado: but this is from my non-dual perspective and reading
Zen Arado: I don't expect anyone else to feel like that
Bruce Mowbray: I feel like that --
Eliza Madrigal: my heart feeling is that everything that is needed is already here, but that we have lost some of the slowing down and careful observation that would come with a serious inquiry spirit ala "life as a lab"... wonderful topics are coming up all the time, like Zen's, but we trample over them sometimes, moving fast to articulate
Bruce Mowbray: and am watching it all....
Bruce Mowbray: because I also notice that I am quite emotionally reactive at times.... beyond rational thought, actually.
Zen Arado: it's like we just keep telling stories and creating descriptions but none of them are true
Raffila Millgrove: if my question on "why" are we.. addressing themed sessions.. brought on any upset.. i didn't mean for it to do so.. i was only asking cause i wondered what problems it was meant to solve and they have come out now.. to discuss.
Bruce Mowbray: Not upset for moi, Raffi! I am delighted!
Eliza Madrigal: not at all Raffi... we have these sort of discussions from time to time "structure v freeform"
Raffila Millgrove: i asked to find out.. what are the problems.. that this solution is meant to cure.
Eliza Madrigal: and I'm also delighted, thank you
Zen Arado: I am very rarely upset by any questions
Aphrodite Macbain: I think that there is a perceived problem that the discussions are dumbing down
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: and we are moving away from PaB's original vision or purpose
Bruce Mowbray: ty Aph. Speaking truth is welcome.
Raffila Millgrove: and i do note that sometimes someone says something.. and it appears that it goes into air.. there are often... many threads going at one time.. but... when you read the log.. often you see--ah ha.. later on.. it came up again.. and it Was .. acknowledged etc.
Zen Arado: in fact I like questions and talking about philosophical issues too much :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: we are all speaking our truth...
Bruce Mowbray: invited, even.
Eliza Madrigal: true Raffi
Aphrodite Macbain: That is a problem of process, a different issue
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, even when I am guardian I miss a lot that's happening -- and putting the chat log together really helps me understand what was going on (but too late to do anything, unfortunately).
Raffila Millgrove: xirana spoke of something in her culture today .. on definition of compassion.. and i know that Storm will come another time.. and we will revisit that idea.
Aphrodite Macbain: We can perhaps decide that we discuss one theme each week so that there is a thorough exploration of it
Zen Arado: yes Raffi, and that highlighted to me the difficulty of even understanding what compassion is
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. Wow Aph, powerful idea.... like the theme of "happiness" was discussed in PaB for at least one month.
Aphrodite Macbain: I believe the 90 second pause is intended to slow us down...
Zen Arado: or what any of these concepts are..... Just words, a noise
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. Then we don't feel we have not really thought about, heard or expressed the many opinions on the subject
Bruce Mowbray: really, Zen. . . just a noise?
Bruce Mowbray: compassion?
Raffila Millgrove: well that chat logs do offer chance.. to revisit.. rethink.. and bring up again.. later.
Aphrodite Macbain: We are talking about discussing ideas, Zen, to more fully become aware
Aphrodite Macbain: of who we are and whether we are
Eliza Madrigal: as the sessions have been less serious Raffi, at least my impression is that fewer people read the logs.. or deeply read...
Aphrodite Macbain: and how we are
Zen Arado: when you try to pin it down you realise just how I ungraspable the ideas are
Eliza Madrigal: I myself read them in more of a skimming way than I used to
Zen Arado: that's all I'm saying
Raffila Millgrove: why is that Eliza.. did you say they were .. dumbing down?
Aphrodite Macbain: I am not sure what you are saying Zen
Raffila Millgrove: or was that Aphro.. someone said that phrase.
Eliza Madrigal: no... I don't think they are...
Aphrodite Macbain: I said dumbing down
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Zen, I totally agree. . . . but shall we not talk, then?
Raffila Millgrove: ok.
Eliza Madrigal: but it is a kind of fine point
Aphrodite Macbain nods at Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: We already have about 5 conversational strands going on here
Eliza Madrigal: I think there is a lot going on, but not sure we are appreciating, cultivating it in the most thoughtful ways
Bruce Mowbray: sry. . .
Bruce Mowbray looks for his lasso.
Raffila Millgrove: like now. i don't' know whether to go with Zen's view.. or discuss what is the topic.. or is.. his view.. part of the topic.
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Zen Arado: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Bruce :)
Aphrodite Macbain ducks
Zen Arado: but my view is constantly changing
Bruce Mowbray: What would you prefer to discuss, Raffi?
Aphrodite Macbain: Let's focus on Zen's observations and concerns
Aphrodite Macbain: and follow them through
Raffila Millgrove: well it's my impression.. that we are on this.. what topics would be good for themed discussion and it was suggested we pick a topic and discuss for a week.
Zen Arado: my main difficulty lately is that I am realising that everything just happens as processes and there is no me in charge
Aphrodite Macbain: (just now)
Raffila Millgrove: but we're also on Zen's views of pointlessness of many words/ideas.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: and I like to think I can control things
Aphrodite Macbain: Can we stay on that for a while?
Bruce Mowbray: so, this is perhaps one of those times when priorities come into view. . .
Bruce Mowbray: like, does SL take priority over RL....
Aphrodite Macbain: ??
Bruce Mowbray: Do Zen's concerns take priority over the "topic" of today's "theme"?
Zen Arado: I don't see the distinction between SL and RL so much now
Aphrodite Macbain: They relate to it
Bruce Mowbray: I say that Zen's concerns take priority (IMHO).
Zen Arado: I was thinking today we don't think speaking on the phone is virtual speaking
Raffila Millgrove: seems like his views.. do relate somewhat maybe to the topic. but i am struggling to relate the two...
Zen Arado: and this screen I am looking at is in real life
Aphrodite Macbain: I think we have to address Zen's concerns before we move on.
Aphrodite Macbain: Otherwise they will keep coming back
Aphrodite Macbain: Don't try and relate them
Raffila Millgrove: ok. so.. could we say in one sentence.. what is Zen's view here?
Bruce Mowbray would not answer the RL phone if it rang.... he is so concerned with Zen's concerns.
Zen Arado: I can't put down my views in black and white
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe Zen can
Zen Arado: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: seems Zen has an ongoing personal inquiry that is part of our community discussions, and factor into various topics
Aphrodite Macbain: You have been doing just that Zen
Eliza Madrigal: like we all
Zen Arado: I know but I am not explaining it well

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: By explaining, it may become clearer to you as well as to us
Bruce Mowbray: Once again, I thank you for honoring the drop -- It came at the perfect time.
Zen Arado: a difficulty I have encountered is that in real life meditation group I seem to have alienated myself somewhat because most of the people involved want to use mindfulness meditation to help themselves or cope with depression etc. Or at least be on a Buddhist path with techniques that lead to some kind of bliss or enlightenment
Zen Arado: and I don't want to do that here
Zen Arado: my present views have evolved from Zen views
Zen Arado: but of course I am still struggling to come to terms with this perspective
Aphrodite Macbain: Why is it a problem for you that others have different reasons for meditating? Can you not accommodate differing viewpoints in order to support these discussions?
Zen Arado: I still like the companionship of being in a group
Aphrodite Macbain: You don't need to agree
Aphrodite Macbain: It is not enough that you are here with others?
Bruce Mowbray suddenly appreciates how very pragmatic his Dharma work is.
Zen Arado: sometimes we find our views differing too much from the consensus of a group
Aphrodite Macbain: "we"?
Zen Arado: okay my views
Raffila Millgrove: is your view, Zen, that you don't want themed discussion?
Aphrodite Macbain: Are you saying that you feel there is an effort within the group to reach consensus?
Bruce Mowbray: Can equanimity be part of this? - - -
Zen Arado: it was the same when I was a Christian.... When I grew disillusioned I could no longer attend that Christian church
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Bruce Mowbray relates closely to what Zen has just said.
Zen Arado: part of me still wants discussion but another part realises that maybe it just doesn't get anywhere
Raffila Millgrove: do you feel themed discussion would present difficulties to you... that you want to skip them?
Aphrodite Macbain: I am not clear what you want from this group Zen.
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think anyone has suggested a topic as a way of imposing one view... quite the contrary
Zen Arado: I am not clear either...
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: ty, Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: so room for all of us
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes.
Bruce Mowbray: INDEED!
Zen Arado: Perhaps that is why we discuss things
Aphrodite Macbain: I hope so
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: I find it valuable to hear dissenting view points.
Bruce Mowbray higs everyone.
Aphrodite Macbain: everyone hugs Bruce back
Eliza Madrigal: the question is more how to be thoughtful in creating welcoming conditions as a group endeavor
Zen Arado: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal hugs Bruce and everyone
Eliza Madrigal: ::::beams:::::
Zen Arado: thought I was a Boson particle for a minute :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: alone in your world
Bruce Mowbray is beginning to get anxious about his presentation at the I Ching seminar this afternoon -- and it is showing in his typing.
Aphrodite Macbain: ? :-)
Zen Arado: Higs Boson particle
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bruce
Riddle Sideways: lol
Eliza Madrigal hopes the hugs help
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps we should stop here and I will try and pick this up tomorrow
Eliza Madrigal breathes to relax anxiety
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: why are you tense liza?
Eliza Madrigal: K, thank you Aphrodite
Zen Arado flaps wings and continues on :-)
Riddle Sideways breathes to live
Eliza Madrigal: oh, because Bruce said anxious, hah
Zen Arado: like ducks after a skirmish
Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you Raffila for asking such an important question
Aphrodite Macbain: and thank you Zen for insisting to be heard.
Eliza Madrigal laughs... I am highly influenced .. which is why I tend to be careful about environments
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hugs help tremendously. THANKS!
Riddle Sideways: thank you for the topic of topics about topics
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Riddle
Aphrodite Macbain: and thank you Bruce and Eliza for softening and stroking and supporting
Bruce Mowbray: HUGS!
Riddle Sideways Higs everyBody
Bruce Mowbray: also it helps to have caps lock key turned off.
Zen Arado: from his Hud
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Aphrodite Macbain: and thank you Riddle for your higging
Zen Arado: :)
Raffila Millgrove is wearing her kimono.. so she cannot hug... but she blows little kisses about..
Eliza Madrigal: and thank you all for much spelling humor
Bruce Mowbray: I must move on to the I Ching group now.
Raffila Millgrove: bye Bruce.
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks you so much, everyone, for being here today.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi paradise :)
Zen Arado: Hi Paradise :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Para!
Aphrodite Macbain: OK Bruce. Could you TP when u get there?
Paradise Tennant: smiles and waves all round :)
Bruce Mowbray: Gotta go.
Eliza Madrigal: moving to I Ching too
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Paradise
Paradise Tennant: I actually am headed there too Bruce could I get a tp ?
Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza could you tp me?
Aphrodite Macbain: oops
Bruce Mowbray: May all be stable and clear.
Riddle Sideways: hi Paradise and sorry, but bye
Raffila Millgrove: enjoy your day/evening all.
Zen Arado: maybe I will go to see what it is about
Aphrodite Macbain: Byee
Wol Euler: hello para, raffi, zen
Raffila Millgrove: hi Paradise. sorry you missed the chat. maybe you will pick it up later in logs.
Raffila Millgrove: hello Wol.
Wol Euler: nice kimono
Paradise Tennant: hiya wol we are headed off to the I Ching group do you want to join us ?
Raffila Millgrove: ty
Zen Arado: Hi Wol
Wol Euler: oh, Pila and Mick?
Wol Euler: isn't it here?
Raffila Millgrove: was at a fundraiser auction. offering an item.. had to dress to match it.
Paradise Tennant: yes Eliza is going and Zen ? I think a few are already there
Wol Euler: lead on