2012.04.05 07:00 - A circle of mirrors

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind. The conversation had many topics and was sometimes "polythreaded".

Being relaxed.

Alfred Kelberry: mr storm :)
Storm Nordwind: Alfred, welcome :)
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: a bit busy :)
Storm Nordwind: That's OK. I'm a bit relaxed. :)
Alfred Kelberry: doesn't look very relaxed. you keep editing things :)
Storm Nordwind: I relax when I'm working. :)
Storm Nordwind: Actually I relax at lots of other times too!
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Storm, Boxy :)
Storm Nordwind: Hi Sam! :)
Storm Nordwind: I trust you're well
Alfred Kelberry: i'm refactoring my web chat thing :)
Alfred Kelberry: sam :)
Alfred Kelberry: it's pretty neat. may not be for any source, not just sl.

Faster than words; faster than thought.

Alfred Kelberry: eh, thoughts are faster than words
Storm Nordwind: Awareness is faster than thought :)
Alfred Kelberry: the fastest are reflexes
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: this is what martial arts is about - turn practice into reflex
Storm Nordwind: Nah... reflexes are pretty slow in comparison to awareness - even my reflexes, which are faster than anyone else's I know (even at my age!)
Alfred Kelberry: wait, where does awareness operate?
Storm Nordwind: Awareness does not have a physical component. It is simply what you are.
Alfred Kelberry: ah, in that sense, yes
Storm Nordwind: Thought that sounds dictatorial, so take it with a pinch of salt!
Alfred Kelberry: can't go faster than self :)

Time travel.

Alfred Kelberry: unless you involve tachyons
Storm Nordwind: Who wouldn't want to? ;-))
Alfred Kelberry: any time travel thing excites me :)
Storm Nordwind: I knew you were going to say that. ')
oO0Oo Resident: Maybe when dogs chase their tails, they are involved in more fascinating research than I previous gave them credit for. ;)
Alfred Kelberry: hehe
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps so Sam!
Alfred Kelberry: maybe their tail is not part of their awareness
Alfred Kelberry: an afterthought
oO0Oo Resident smiles
Storm Nordwind knew an avatar of that name :)
Alfred Kelberry: gee, i want to travel to the year of 2254
Alfred Kelberry: it's going to be awesome!
Storm Nordwind: Random date? or something forecast for then?
Alfred Kelberry: random... or pseudo-random :)
Alfred Kelberry: depends on your philosophical stance :)
Storm Nordwind: I tend to sit on philosophy rather than stand on it :)
Alfred Kelberry: er
Alfred Kelberry: ok
Alfred Kelberry: :)

Tell us a story.

Alfred Kelberry: tell us a story, storm
Alfred Kelberry: hopefully pdp11 related :)
Alfred Kelberry: or maybe a cobol horror story
Storm Nordwind: hmm...
Storm Nordwind: When I learned COBOL, the worst retribution you could enact on someone was to shuffle their program cards. There. Will that do?
oO0Oo Resident: lol
oO0Oo Resident: gives a new meaning to the phrase "punch cards"
Alfred Kelberry: um, that is fun :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Alfred Kelberry: true mastery would be to shuffle them in such an order that would create a new working program
Alfred Kelberry: bleu!
Storm Nordwind: Hmm... That's subtle and evil. The program would still compile, and if the change was small, the author may not notice. But the results would be haywire
Alfred Kelberry: artsy girl :)
Bleu Oleander: good morning all :)
Storm Nordwind: Good morning Bleu!
oO0Oo Resident: Hiya Bleu.
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: But I never played such pranks. In fact I dislike all so-called practical jokes.
Alfred Kelberry: it's a bit frightening that cobol still powers a bunch of stuff we daily rely on :)
Storm Nordwind: Simple can be good
Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
Storm Nordwind: Afternoon Zen
Alfred Kelberry: well, some of those are not so grave
Zen Arado: Hi all
Alfred Kelberry: zen :)
Storm Nordwind: And the topic for this session is... yet to be discovered :)

Closed for Easter.

Zen Arado: usually go to RL art club Thurs afternoons but shut for Easter
Alfred Kelberry: yea, i would not want to fly an airplane programmed in python :)
Storm Nordwind: Their loss is our gain then Zen :)
Zen Arado: well....
Zen Arado: :)
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Zen
Alfred Kelberry: so you're here instead :)
Zen Arado: yep
Storm Nordwind: Being arty
Alfred Kelberry: artsy
Storm Nordwind: That too
Bleu Oleander: with a bigger wardrobe :)
Zen Arado: I thought Easter was at same date everywhere
Zen Arado: but apparently not
oO0Oo Resident: ada airplanes for Boxy ;)
Storm Nordwind: Today is not Maundy Thursday everywhere?
Alfred Kelberry: i didn't even know there was easter :)
Alfred Kelberry: sam, that will do :)
oO0Oo Resident: :)
Zen Arado: have a friend lives in Romania and they have next weekend not this one
Storm Nordwind: Is not the Queen of England giving out silver coin today? Surely that defines the festival and the season! ;-)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Alfred Kelberry: really, there's only one holiday - christmas
Zen Arado: I thought there was some kind of calculation for it
Storm Nordwind: Golden numbers and epacts IIRC
Alfred Kelberry: huh?
Storm Nordwind: It's all to do with the moon
Zen Arado: http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/...ster-date.html
Storm Nordwind: In the English book of common prayer, there were tables using those oddly named things Alfred, used for calculating Easter
Alfred Kelberry: it's not on the same day each year?
Storm Nordwind: Did you know that Easter is named after a heathen goddess, whose festival was celebrated in April? :)
Zen Arado: depends whehter they use Gregorin or Julian calendar it seems
Alfred Kelberry: gah, complicated
Alfred Kelberry: xiri!
Bleu Oleander: hi Xirana :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hi everyone:)
Zen Arado: Hi Xirana
Storm Nordwind waves
oO0Oo Resident: Hola Xir !
Alfred Kelberry: *notes xiri's bling shoes* :)
Xirana Oximoxi: :))
Alfred Kelberry: *thinks what is "the english book of common prayer"*
Alfred Kelberry: is the radio up today, zen? :)
Zen Arado: it's used by Anglicans
Zen Arado: what radio?
Alfred Kelberry: zen radio :)
Zen Arado: only on special occasions
Zen Arado: :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Alfred Kelberry: ah
Bleu Oleander: brb
Zen Arado: can't intrude on other people's sessions

A dress for Zen.

Zen Arado: I started making a dress
Zen Arado: :)
oO0Oo Resident: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: you're doing a dress??? :)
Storm Nordwind: Will you model it for us when you're done?
Xirana Oximoxi: is it an idiom or you mean it literally?
Zen Arado: my female alt will
Zen Arado: if she likes it :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
oO0Oo Resident: lol
Xirana Oximoxi: hehe
Zen Arado: no really
Alfred Kelberry: naughty, storm :)
--BELL--
Zen Arado: Hi San
Xirana Oximoxi: hi San
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps you'll go into business makingthem and become a star designer
Alfred Kelberry: who would have thought storm is naughty :)
Alfred Kelberry: san :)
Santoshima Resident: hello!
Zen Arado: not looking too far ahead
Bleu Oleander: hi San

Photoshop.

Zen Arado: but I'm learning a lot about using Photoshop
Zen Arado: and layers
Storm Nordwind: Which version are you using?
Zen Arado: elements version 6
Zen Arado: the full one is so expensive
Xirana Oximoxi: you can also do 'Digital Art' :)
Bleu Oleander: can do quite a lot with elements
Storm Nordwind: Yes. But perhaps worth it
Zen Arado: maybe I could get an older full version
Bleu Oleander: depends what you're using it for
Storm Nordwind: I have 7 on this machine. But also have CS4 to install one day
Bleu Oleander: avatar clothes can be done quite nicely in element :)
Alfred Kelberry: cs line is borked
Zen Arado: I have a little Wacom tablet too
Xirana Oximoxi: with Gimp one can do a lot of things too
Zen Arado: dug it out last night
Alfred Kelberry: they stuff it with too much additions
Alfred Kelberry: you pay for crap you don't use

Being a pro.

Storm Nordwind: My pro-artist wife uses CS4 and uses it thoroughly :)
oO0Oo Resident: not me :)
Bleu Oleander: different if pro ... elements is fine for non-pro I think
Santoshima Resident: oh, soon you will be pro
oO0Oo Resident thinks Bleu's a Pro
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Alfred Kelberry: pro label award
Santoshima Resident: wrong window, apology
Santoshima Resident: yes, pro indeed
Alfred Kelberry: pro pab
Bleu Oleander: definitely non-pro :)
Alfred Kelberry: i think we can call it a pro after 4 years
Zen Arado: prefer being an amateur
Zen Arado: it's more fun
Zen Arado: :)
Alfred Kelberry: or just being :)
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: no label
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Alfred Kelberry: yes, i like that
Xirana Oximoxi: me too:)
Zen Arado: just make clothes to see how far I get
Zen Arado: see what happens

An artist in a hospital.

Storm Nordwind: Not sure about more fun. My wife has so much fun she doesn't want to retire - and she gets paid for it!
Bleu Oleander waits for the "Zen label"
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Alfred Kelberry: storm, what's she doing?
Zen Arado: you can make money in SL designing clothes
oO0Oo Resident: circle/triangle/square
Zen Arado: not sure what retirement is anymore
Xirana Oximoxi: yes Zen...sure you can get more money than selling paintings:)
Storm Nordwind: Alfred, she's a professional artist at a not-for-profit traumatic brain and spinal cord injury rehabilitation hospital. Has been for 27 years.
Bleu Oleander: not ever retiring .... don't want that "retired" label :)
Zen Arado: Zen's High Qualty Clothing Store
Zen Arado: :)
Alfred Kelberry: storm, this is interesting. an artist in a hospital :)
Santoshima Resident: very
Zen Arado: art is good rehab
Zen Arado: and good for Alzheimer's prevention too maybe
Storm Nordwind: They always want medical illustrations for training. But they always want signage too!
Zen Arado: ponders difference between graphic design and art
Zen Arado: more labels I guess
Bleu Oleander: have a great day everyone ... take care :)
Storm Nordwind waves
Zen Arado: art is less goal oriented maybe
Zen Arado: bye Bleu
oO0Oo Resident: Bye Bleu :)
Santoshima Resident: how about adding to the list graphic art, boxy?
Santoshima Resident: bye Bleu
--BELL--
Santoshima Resident: bye for now ~
Storm Nordwind: Bye San!
Xirana Oximoxi: bye San
oO0Oo Resident waves
Xirana Oximoxi: I must go now..bye bye all, have a nice day! :)
Storm Nordwind: Bye :)
Zen Arado: byee Xirana
oO0Oo Resident: Bye Xirana :)

Being predictable.

oO0Oo Resident wonders how predictable we are to each other, in our tendencies, habits, modes of being and expression.
Storm Nordwind: Do you have something particularly in mind Sam? :)
Zen Arado: I try to assume unpredictability regarding people
oO0Oo Resident: It's something I often wonder.. just stating it now openly.
Storm Nordwind nods
Zen Arado: though my mind is continuously freezing people into types
Zen Arado: we judge people from their behaviour
Zen Arado: in the past

Seeing ourselves as others see us.

oO0Oo Resident: I sometimes wonder about exercises that we could do, to see more ourselves through others eyes.
Zen Arado: kind of like giving ourselves a 'self', we also assign one to others I think
Storm Nordwind: Or what we believe we know of it, from what little we've seen
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: would that be desireable Sam?
Storm Nordwind: To walk a little way in their moccasins
oO0Oo Resident: Well.. have you ever asked another person for feedback? You know.. like.. how do i come across, or what am i like to yoou etc?
Storm Nordwind: yes. Done that formally at workshops.
oO0Oo Resident: i think that can be valuable
Zen Arado: but that is their version of you?
Zen Arado: is it any more 'correct' than how you see yourself?
Storm Nordwind: There's an exercise called Johari Window that does just that
Zen Arado: perhaps if you had a bad character flaw that was obvious to others but you were blind to...
Zen Arado: could be useful
Storm Nordwind: That's the sort of thing the exercise highlights, but there's a wonderful catch!

A story about a Johari Window exercise.

Storm Nordwind: I did the Johari Window exercise about 10 years ago on a course, along with about 20 people...
Storm Nordwind: We spent a few hours interviewing each other asking just that: "How do i present?" etc...
Storm Nordwind: And then we plotted the results on the Window...
Storm Nordwind: the interesting thing was there were two professional psychologists there too...
Storm Nordwind: And they were part of the interview process
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: So we plotted their comments too... (more in a minute)...
Storm Nordwind: The interesting thing was the comments of the the two psychologists were always outliers! They disagreed with the others and with each other. ... One said to me, Storm you're obviously very intellectual, you should try being more intuitive. The other said Storm you're obviously very intuitive so why not try being more intellectual!
Alfred Kelberry: hi
Storm Nordwind: Meanwhile, the general comments from others tended to agree mostly with my own self-assessment, but neither assessment from the psychologist was at all useful
Storm Nordwind: End of story :)
Alfred Kelberry: eh...
Zen Arado: interesting
Zen Arado: if we could suddenly become telepathic and see what people thought of us we might be horrified
Alfred Kelberry: hehe
Alfred Kelberry: yea, pretty neat
Zen Arado: and don't people tend to see their own faultas reflected in others?
oO0Oo Resident: ty Storm.
Zen Arado: a bit like that brutal honesty video you posted boxy
Storm Nordwind is reminded of the planet of Kakrafoon

A circle of mirrors.

Alfred Kelberry: i think often times others see us better than we ourselves
oO0Oo Resident: Sometimes we might ask a trusted friend or colleague.. if we are game. It might be just one other point of view. I can also imagine also having a circle of mirrors who could give many points of view.
Alfred Kelberry: yes, i loved that video. wish all my dates would be like that :)
Zen Arado: we are always judging our reception from other's reactions to us anyway
Storm Nordwind: Yes Sam. It is, after all, often easier to be honest with someone else than it is to be with yourself.

Honest. Selfish.

oO0Oo Resident: can you post the link for the video here please?
Zen Arado: you think Boxy?
Alfred Kelberry: sec
Alfred Kelberry: http://bit.ly/GHxmNw
oO0Oo Resident: ty :)
Zen Arado: it made the couple look very selfish I thought
Zen Arado: only thinking what what is the relationship for them
Storm Nordwind: Out for what they could get
Alfred Kelberry: practical
Zen Arado: are we all so self centred as that?
Storm Nordwind: no
Storm Nordwind: not all
Zen Arado: I don't think so either
Alfred Kelberry: why being honest is selfish?
Zen Arado: we have to feel some liking at least for other person
Storm Nordwind: They're independent Alfred
Zen Arado: a want to please them and make them feel happy
Alfred Kelberry: they got a deal
Alfred Kelberry: mutually beneficial
Zen Arado: yeh like a business deal
Zen Arado: cold and unloving
Alfred Kelberry: why is it bad?
Zen Arado: not bad but .....
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Storm Nordwind: honesty and selfishness came together in this instance. They negotiated a for-the-moment deal. Honesty and selfishness often do not occur together
Zen Arado: kinda demeans human relations a bit I thought
Zen Arado: it's lie applying philosophical reasoning to sex and relationships
Alfred Kelberry: if it's mutual, i don't see how it's "bad"
Zen Arado: you can come up with perfectly plausible arguments in favour of pornography or lap dancing for instance
Storm Nordwind: WHo said it was "bad"?
Storm Nordwind: What would "bad" mean anyway?

A safe container.

oO0Oo Resident: The other morning I was contemplating a circle, in which people know each other pretty well. A question is asked, and people take turns answering as they think a specific person might answer. Then each person in turn.. hears this sort of feedback from a ll the others. I then went on to think.. there must be many ways to invite various kinds of feedback.. some more threatening than others. A safe container would be good. Not everybody would necessarily wish to do this sort of thing.
Zen Arado: but it still seems a bit sleazy or something...
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps you could start one Sam :)
Zen Arado: but we do that in Original face group Sam
Alfred Kelberry: storm, selfishness is considered bad and zen's remark on "cold and unloved"
Zen Arado: I'm talking about how it feels boxy
Zen Arado: though it is justifiable logically
Zen Arado: and it's subjective
Zen Arado: just my feeling
--BELL--

Poly...

Zen Arado: I have the same problem with polyamorality
Storm Nordwind: Zen, is that the only thing you do in Original face? As Sam described? or just sometimes?
Zen Arado: there are great arguments in favour of it but it just doesn't feel right to me
Storm Nordwind: If Sam feels it would be vaulable, perhaps a separate time and venue could be created.
Zen Arado: we have meditation
Zen Arado: a check in about things that come up and discuss a theme
Zen Arado: but in turn
oO0Oo Resident: Do you mean polyamory Zen?
Zen Arado: yes
Storm Nordwind: So a dedicated session elsewhere might be conceivable. (/me can think of several venues.)
oO0Oo Resident: polyamory for those who may want to know: http://is.gd/s97x1w
Storm Nordwind remembers their parrot logo
Zen Arado: giving love to lots of people instead of being possessive and restricting to one partner only
Alfred Kelberry: oh, swing parties :)
Zen Arado: read 'The Ethical Slut'
Zen Arado: but then...what we feel is how we have been conditioned
oO0Oo Resident: I think, what I am thinking about is a more concerted invitation to get direct feedback from others in ways that may help to see blindspots. My experience in OF, was not quite what I had in mind here, but it may have changed.

No opinion. No problem.

Alfred Kelberry: what do you think on polyamory, storm?
Zen Arado: and marriage or having one partner is the norm in our societies
oO0Oo Resident: several threads (no problem)
Zen Arado: ok Sam...but you have to tread carefully here I think
Storm Nordwind: I have no opinion Alfred
Alfred Kelberry: eh, you're usually full of opinions :)
Zen Arado: I have a notecard with first chapters os Ethical slut if anyone wants it
Alfred Kelberry: sorry, zen. no time to read additional books.
Storm Nordwind politely declines
Zen Arado: it's actually only an intro
Zen Arado: probably better to not think about it
Zen Arado: such things only disturb
Zen Arado: better to live with our intuition
Zen Arado: always scene from 'Alfie' with Michael caine
Zen Arado: he was a playboy and got his girlfriend to have an abortion
Zen Arado: but was so horrified and upset when he saw the actual foetus
Zen Arado: remember *
Zen Arado: anyway...getting a bit heavy
Alfred Kelberry: eek
Zen Arado: but such a difference from reason and feeling and emotons and reason
Zen Arado: they all have to integrate in any issue?
Zen Arado: and that is called maturity?
oO0Oo Resident: what are we talking about? polyamory or?
Alfred Kelberry: why would someone want to see a fetus?
Alfred Kelberry: it's gross
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: or, sam :)
oO0Oo Resident: Please excuse me.. will wander along and pick up stones :) Thanks everybody.
Zen Arado: to me the issue is that we can't remove feelings from issues like polamorality
Alfred Kelberry: see you
Storm Nordwind: Bye for now Sam
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: bye Sam
oO0Oo Resident: bfn friends :)

Vague and messy.

Alfred Kelberry: i prefer the cobol talk :)
Zen Arado: feelings are vaguer and messier :)
Zen Arado: harder to deal with
Zen Arado: but so is life

Limitations.

Alfred Kelberry: have you seen cobol's code? not far from it :)
Zen Arado: yeh ok...to me impossible
Zen Arado: :)
Alfred Kelberry: i don't like "impossible"
Zen Arado: no but I have limitations :)
Alfred Kelberry: i think anyone can excel given enough time and determination
Zen Arado: but we have natural abilities
Alfred Kelberry: being able to focus and stay on the path can be difficult
Zen Arado: mine isn't computer programming
Zen Arado: yes
Alfred Kelberry: i think natural abilities can be attributed to physical body, not brain
Zen Arado: a genetic predisposition?
Alfred Kelberry: say, to be a good athlete, it requires certain natural build
Zen Arado: ah yes
Zen Arado: thinking of someone like Mozart
Zen Arado: and his musicla ability
Storm Nordwind prefers to be a polymath than to be pigeonholed
Zen Arado: I could never climb Mt Everent no matter how hard I tried
Alfred Kelberry: i think in many ways it's focus and determination
Zen Arado: Everest
Zen Arado: agree boxy

Next lifetime.

Zen Arado: talents also require hard work
Alfred Kelberry: if we all had those, we'd live our dreams
Storm Nordwind does
Alfred Kelberry: storm is an exception :)
Alfred Kelberry: he's reached enlightenment a long time ago
Storm Nordwind: No. That's next lifetime :-P
Zen Arado: just this
Alfred Kelberry: but um... we live only once
Zen Arado: all there is
Zen Arado: who knows?
Zen Arado: anyway...dinnertime :)
Alfred Kelberry: no evidence of afterlife just yet :)
Zen Arado: byee
Alfred Kelberry: but who wants to die
Alfred Kelberry: eat well, zen :)
Storm Nordwind: Bye Zen!
Alfred Kelberry: ok, now a question
Alfred Kelberry: do i sit here with you quietly for a while or leave right now
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: oh, hi, obs
Alfred Kelberry: i'll opt for the first option
Storm Nordwind: Do you know what do you want to do?
--BELL--
Alfred Kelberry: funny, i think of microsoft reading this question :)
Storm Nordwind: Why would they want to read that question? ;-)
Alfred Kelberry: would a comma fix that? :)
Storm Nordwind: very often, yes :)
Alfred Kelberry: o, k :)
Storm Nordwind will take his leave