2012.04.29 13:00 - Do as you would be done by

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya stormy
Storm Nordwind: Hi Aph!
Aphrodite Macbain: Seems I haven't seen you in ages
Storm Nordwind: One moment - there's a stray object on our land that needs disposing of...
Aphrodite Macbain: kk
Storm Nordwind: Done
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Was that an alien spaceship?
Storm Nordwind: Hi Bruce.
Bruce Mowbray: Howdy do!
Storm Nordwind: If there were aliens on board, they're gone too now :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you for saving us Storm
Bruce Mowbray: I watched "Paul" for the second time -- ooops... I think I already told you that.
Aphrodite Macbain: Waves at Wol
Storm Nordwind: I would hate for you to be abducted... yet :)
Wol Euler: evening all
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol!
Aphrodite Macbain: Paul?
Storm Nordwind: Ah you didn't mention the second time - only that you might do so
Aphrodite Macbain: which paul?
Storm Nordwind: Worth a second play?
Aphrodite Macbain: There are so many
Wol Euler: movie named "Paul"
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, watched it again Firday night -- saw MUCH that I'd missed the first time.
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh It hasn't arrived here yet.
Wol Euler: that's often the case, I find
Storm Nordwind: Yes I thought that might happen
Storm Nordwind: A movie Aph: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1092026/
Aphrodite Macbain: Is it good?
Storm Nordwind: Very funny
Storm Nordwind: So good if you like funny
Bruce Mowbray: Hilarious and irreverent as all ----.
Aphrodite Macbain: About UFOs?
Storm Nordwind: About one alien
Aphrodite Macbain: tying to figure out the world?
Bruce Mowbray: About a space alien that crashes his ship on a dog.
Aphrodite Macbain: LOL
Storm Nordwind: Oh no. About the world trying to figure out him!
Aphrodite Macbain: scratch scratch
Bruce Mowbray: No "probbing," though.
Aphrodite Macbain: Probbing?
Storm Nordwind: Only the threat of it!
Bruce Mowbray: "probing," sry.
Bruce Mowbray has mental image of two bagels....
Storm Nordwind: "It's probing time!" Finger waggles. People faint!
Storm Nordwind: Could easily become a cult movie.
 

Aphrodite Macbain: How do people feel about discussing the topic "Using one's own traditions as a resource (for living and being)"?
Bruce Mowbray: I'm up for it, Aph.

Wol Euler: sure, go for it
Storm Nordwind: You start ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles. Maybe we can each talk about our own religious tradition(s)
Aphrodite Macbain: Sure, OK

Aph

Bruce Mowbray: kk. . . brb . . .
Aphrodite Macbain: I was raised an Anglican
Aphrodite Macbain: what do you call it in the US?
Wol Euler: I think "anglican" is known
Bruce Mowbray: Episcopalian.
Wol Euler: ah, ty
Storm Nordwind: Not sure. I think it's close to Episcopalian
Bruce Mowbray: Episcopalian.
Aphrodite Macbain: and I had Presbyterian grandparents and great grandparents
Bruce Mowbray: oh dear... HIT my typist!
Aphrodite Macbain: all of whom were staunch Christians.
Wol Euler smiles.
Aphrodite Macbain: Dont hit your typist Bruce!. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you!
Storm Nordwind just did for him :)
Bruce Mowbray scrapes typist off the floor.
Aphrodite Macbain: That was the most basic lesson learned from all of them and it seems to be transferable to any religion

Bruce Mowbray: (It's a tradition, you understand.)
Aphrodite Macbain: sits patiently and waits,...
Aphrodite Macbain: till it's their turn :-)
Storm Nordwind: Not sure "any" religion, but certainly many
Aphrodite Macbain: ??
Bruce Mowbray: kk. My home demolishers are just now LEAVING for the day -- so no more interruptions!
Wol Euler: :)

Storm

Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe I'll pass this along to Storm
Storm Nordwind: k
Aphrodite Macbain watches storm type on his knees
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: Just because I grew up in a country that was slightly Christian, and attended Christian like services at school, doesn't mean I feel it's my tradition in any way
Storm Nordwind: Before being Buddhist I was for many years a Heathen, which means a follower of reconstructed North European Germanic paganism - hence why it's easier just to say "Heathen"!
Aphrodite Macbain: Nods
Storm Nordwind: So that was my tradition by choice for a long time
Aphrodite Macbain: Barbarians!
Aphrodite Macbain smiles
Bruce Mowbray: Druids?
Storm Nordwind: Actually, quite different to Barbarians, but we're splitting hairs here!
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Storm Nordwind: No not Druidry
Bruce Mowbray: Celtic?
Storm Nordwind: Druidry is not Germanic in origin
Storm Nordwind: Celts are not Germanic either
Bruce Mowbray shuts up -- hits his typist again.
Aphrodite Macbain: How was Heathenism a resource for you Storm?
Wol Euler: I fear you will have to explain this, Storm :)
Storm Nordwind: We're talking Anglo Saxon, Germanic, Norse - all the countries around the North Sea
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh! Odin!
Aphrodite Macbain: North German
Storm Nordwind: Odin - Woden - Wotan - yes he was one of the gods of Heathenry
Aphrodite Macbain: Listens
Storm Nordwind: Heathenry has been a resource in a couple of ways I can immediately think of
Storm Nordwind: For one thing, it is a polytheist religion...
Storm Nordwind: and all the gods are independent...
Aphrodite Macbain: independent?
Storm Nordwind: and none is a face for some kind of almighty supergod
Storm Nordwind: They're as independent as you or me
Storm Nordwind: Not facets of anything else
Aphrodite Macbain: Independent from what?
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh I see
Storm Nordwind: nor archetypes personified
Storm Nordwind: just real individual beings
Storm Nordwind: and they're flawed
Aphrodite Macbain: just not human
Storm Nordwind: and finite
Storm Nordwind: just not human yes
Aphrodite Macbain: finite?!
Storm Nordwind: Sure
Storm Nordwind: They live and die
Storm Nordwind: like all gods
Aphrodite Macbain: Don’t they still exist?
Storm Nordwind: Some do yes

Wol Euler: hello korel
Korel Laloix: Heya
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Korel
Aphrodite Macbain: We're talking about our own religious traditions and how they help us

Storm Nordwind: So that brings acceptance of other people's views ...
Storm Nordwind: but also a nice big grain of salt
Aphrodite Macbain: BC they are flawed?
Storm Nordwind: when others claim absolute and almighty!
Storm Nordwind: b/c = what Aph?
Aphrodite Macbain: But they are also unreliable...
Aphrodite Macbain: b/c they are flawed you can take them with a grain of salt?
Storm Nordwind: What does b/c mean?
Aphrodite Macbain: because
Storm Nordwind: ah thank you
Aphrodite Macbain: sorry
Storm Nordwind: No...
Storm Nordwind: they are flawed, but you see all gods as flawed
Storm Nordwind: which is fine
Wol Euler smiles.
Storm Nordwind: There's another resource it brings too
Storm Nordwind: off hand thinking
Aphrodite Macbain: so they teach by law not by example?
Storm Nordwind: who?
Aphrodite Macbain: the gods
Aphrodite Macbain: dont do what I do, do what I say
Storm Nordwind: Well some do and some don't and many don't teach at all
Aphrodite Macbain: kk
Storm Nordwind: But the second resource that springs to mind is communication
Storm Nordwind: It's really very natural in many polytheist religion to communicate with gods, any gods
Storm Nordwind: In fact it's more unnatural not to do so, or to think that it's just up to priests to do it for you
Storm Nordwind: So this is very freeing
Storm Nordwind: It gives permission
Storm Nordwind: to try it yourself
Wol Euler: oh, I do :()
Storm Nordwind: and in this way you establish a basis for finding stuff out first hand
Aphrodite Macbain: what purpose do these Heathen gods serve?
Storm Nordwind: Ask yourself what purpose you serve first Aph!
Aphrodite Macbain: Myself and my survival I suppose
Aphrodite Macbain: then others
Storm Nordwind: They exist. They have being. So do you. What other purpose does anything need?
Aphrodite Macbain: Why bother to pray to them then?
Aphrodite Macbain: Why fear them?
Aphrodite Macbain: What can they give us?
Storm Nordwind:  No reason. In fact with Heathen gods they scorn prayer!
Storm Nordwind: They prefer proper conversation, not prayer
Storm Nordwind: And they will negotiate like any adult human
Aphrodite Macbain: So they play a sort of collegial role?
Storm Nordwind: Not sure what that means
Aphrodite Macbain: friend and colleague
Storm Nordwind: Sure. Friend with more power and more vision.

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: a wise grandfatherly type to whom you can go to for help or advice?
Storm Nordwind: No need to fear them, by the way, though - like some humans - I dare say many gods like to be feared or worshiped!
Storm Nordwind: Some are grandfatherly, some not
Storm Nordwind: They have their own agendas. All of them. Heathen or non-Heathen. Without exception.
Wol Euler nods.
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Wol Euler: thank you, storm
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for sharing, Storm. I feel I know you better for this.
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Storm. Bruce, how do use your own traditions as a resource (for living and being)

Bruce

Bruce Mowbray: Well. . .
Bruce Mowbray: a thumbnail sketch of a LONG journey:
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: I was brought up in the Baptist church....
Bruce Mowbray: until age 14, when I fell in love,
Bruce Mowbray: and rebelled against the Baptists -- and went across the street to my girlfriend's church:
Bruce Mowbray: Methodist!
Aphrodite Macbain: Tch tch
Bruce Mowbray: Where I eventually became MYF (Methodist Youth FRellowship) president - sang in the choir, the full deal.
Aphrodite Macbain: awww
Bruce Mowbray: I even went to SMU (Southern Methodist University)...
Bruce Mowbray: and got undergrad degree there.
Bruce Mowbray: From there -- became a Unitarian Universalist----
Bruce Mowbray: and that brought me to Berkeley.
Bruce Mowbray: Starr King School for the Ministry...
Bruce Mowbray: One year there.
Bruce Mowbray: Dropped out and went to Cal's grad school.
Bruce Mowbray: Through Ram Dass and others got into meditation in Berkeley....
Aphrodite Macbain didn't know Calvino had a grad school
Bruce Mowbray: explored Eastern mystical traditions.
Bruce Mowbray: Calvino Graduate School of the Occult, actually.

Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: anyway....
Bruce Mowbray: after teaching for fourteen years... moving to Ohio...
Bruce Mowbray: I walked across the country alone,
Aphrodite Macbain: 14 years!!?
Bruce Mowbray: and during that hike,
Bruce Mowbray: I had what I can only call -- and still call - Miraculous experiences.
Bruce Mowbray: So, here I am - and raw hard core atheist-- experiencing miracles every day.
Aphrodite Macbain: a year of magical living
Bruce Mowbray: So....
Bruce Mowbray: mid-way along the hike.
Bruce Mowbray: I call the Methodist minister friend here . . .
Bruce Mowbray: and he attends a Methodist seminary in Dayton -
Bruce Mowbray: so , I ask him to send me application materials for that seminary.
Bruce Mowbray: And, in the fall of 1977, I become a seminarian...
Bruce Mowbray: BUT, I did not consider myself a Christian (and never have -- since I was a teenager)....
Bruce Mowbray: Just wanting to explore the "tradition into which I was hatched."
Bruce Mowbray: Trying to give it a fair shake.
Aphrodite Macbain: How have theses religious traditions helped you?
Bruce Mowbray: I'm going to get to that, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: kk
Bruce Mowbray: When I was at the seminary,
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: I realized that I was a pantheist.
Bruce Mowbray: The theology prof. argued with me -- saying I was really a panENtheist.
Aphrodite Macbain: ??
Bruce Mowbray: One who believes God is in all physical creation -- and is at the same time transcending it.
Bruce Mowbray: I said NO.
Bruce Mowbray: I am not that.
Bruce Mowbray: Nature, to me, is the only god I know -- relate to...
Bruce Mowbray: No transcendent divinities.
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps they exist...
Bruce Mowbray: but that's not my business.
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Bruce Mowbray: So, to state it briefly....
Aphrodite Macbain: !
Bruce Mowbray: The natural order -- cosmos however it is known (and that changes, of course) -- is the ultimate context for my spirituality.
Bruce Mowbray: OK. On to Aph's question about resources.
Bruce Mowbray: Mostly, all of this path ---
Bruce Mowbray: and I affirm that everyone's path is "perfect" -- regardless.
Bruce Mowbray: My path has helped me become tolerant of differences.
Bruce Mowbray: I feel I "understand" folks' "need" for spiritual grounding...
Bruce Mowbray: and I have compassion for that -- HOWEVER it happens.
Bruce Mowbray: even the extremes. even the radicals.
Bruce Mowbray: no matter how crazy,
Bruce Mowbray: there's part of me that resonates with their "need" --
Bruce Mowbray: and whatever brought them there.
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Want me to finish?
Wol Euler: yes please :)
Bruce Mowbray: kk.

Wol Euler: hello been, have you been here before?

Benjamin Greycloak: yip i have been here b4

Aphrodite Macbain: We just have 15 mins for 2 more people- I'm feeling the pressure of time
Wol Euler: no pressure, aph
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Wol Euler: you are not being judged on how many points we tick off :)
Storm Nordwind applauds Bruce

Wol Euler: thank you, bruce

Aphrodite Macbain smiles warmly at Bruce

--BELL—

Aphrodite Macbain: Kori - how have your religious traditions helped you?
Korel Laloix: hmmmm
Korel Laloix: Not sure how to answer this one.
Wol Euler nods and listens.
Korel Laloix: I grew up in a militant atheist house with selective inclusions of Tsalagi and Bode' culture and religious practice.
Korel Laloix: I was really deliberately kept from anything religious... I was 19 when I first entered a religious building in fact.
Korel Laloix: So I grew up with a very negative opinion of anything or anyone religious.
Korel Laloix: I am thankful for being a rare person to grow up with an awareness of First American religious concepts though.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods. Like what Kori?
Korel Laloix: My aunts are medicine women, so I learned a lot from them.
Korel Laloix: Ceremonies, traditions, some important concepts and stories.
Korel Laloix: Hard to wrap in one idea.
Aphrodite Macbain: Have they helped you?
Wol Euler nods.
Korel Laloix: Hard question to answer.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: Honest answer
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Korel
Korel Laloix: Religious atheism is a strange way to look at things... but I have to realize that my mom is an extremely poor way to judge anything.
Wol Euler smiles.
Aphrodite Macbain: We each have to decide for ourselves
Korel Laloix: But my First American upbringing as fragmented as it was... gives me an outsider perspective sometimes.
Wol Euler: "outside" can be a very useful place to be!
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Korel Laloix: And so lacking certain normal US context is very freeing sometimes.
Storm Nordwind: Do you see that as an advantage, or does it lead you to feel 'left out'?
Korel Laloix: Both.
Storm Nordwind nods
Korel Laloix: I did not grow up really isolated some in NM or Arizona or Alaska.
Korel Laloix: But I am pathologically overbearing so I make sure I am never left out... RL at least... smiles
Wol Euler smiles.
Storm Nordwind smiles too
Korel Laloix: So I treasure that most of the time.
Korel Laloix: I have an ex that very much tried to de-native me....
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Storm Nordwind can imagine the scratch marks
Korel Laloix: And when I figured out what was going on, it was a big revelation to me how important it was to me.
Korel Laloix: Just odd really.
Wol Euler: that is worth learning, though
Wol Euler: must have shown you your history and ideas in a new light
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Korel. We can come back to each of us but I'd like to ask Wol in the last 5 minutes to share anything from her religious tradition that has helped her..
Wol Euler: no, I'd rather that Korel finished
Storm Nordwind: Brilliant Korel, thank you!
Aphrodite Macbain: kk
Bruce Mowbray: np for me to go over an hour -- I'll send you the log, Aph, if you need to leave.
Korel Laloix: Anyway... one of the other things that was probably an effect for me was being raised in a house where there were really no senses of morals..... I ended up really figuring out what was self destructive by practical experience.
Korel Laloix: Very good and very bad memories for sure.
Bruce Mowbray listens very carefully.

Korel Laloix: I can stop...sorry for running so long.
Korel Laloix: OK...
Wol Euler: don't stop
Wol Euler: until you are finished :)
Bruce Mowbray: PLEASE don't stop.
Aphrodite Macbain: No it is very valuable Korel. Thanks
Korel Laloix: This could take a while.
Wol Euler: we have a while
Bruce Mowbray: Please -- take as long as you wish.
Korel Laloix: Ok.Thanks.
Bruce Mowbray: I will send Aph the log.
Korel Laloix: Have to stir some food though occasionally.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Wol Euler chuckles.
Bruce Mowbray: Yummie wild turkey!
Aphrodite Macbain: That's Ok Bruce- I was thinking about Bertram etc and concerned about other's schedules
Wol Euler: oh, right, Sunday :/
Bruce Mowbray continues to listen, regardless

Korel Laloix: So then I got to college.. and started taking philosophy classes....
Korel Laloix: And it struck me how predictable they were...
Wol Euler nods and listens.
Aphrodite Macbain: listens too
Storm Nordwind will have to start the naan at some point but is happy to listen :)
Korel Laloix: A couple of classes at different universities... all the same thing.
Korel Laloix: And I was on SL really behaving badly especially toward religions sims... grieving them.
Storm Nordwind wags his finger... but smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: grins
Korel Laloix: And I sort of realized that what I had been told about religion was mostly wrong.
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Korel Laloix: And I started thinking for myself.
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
Storm Nordwind: yay!
Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]
Korel Laloix: And the big thing I noticed was that my philosophy professors were group thinking.
Korel Laloix: But when I went around to the various Christian sims... they could not agree on anything... lol
--BELL--
Korel Laloix: Stirring.... brb
Bruce Mowbray: I shall interject -- while Kori is stirring -
Bruce Mowbray: that she is making wild turkey. . .
Storm Nordwind: Philosophy professors... They're supposed to teach you how to think, not what to think. But sadly that's rarely the case.

Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- to encourage you to ask questions and look for your own answers
Korel Laloix: Soooo.. then I started dating this Jainist woman 14 years older than me.
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Korel Laloix: And I realized first hand that religions people were not stupid, close minded and could be extremely sexy... grins
Wol Euler grins.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Korel Laloix: So I really started looking at all religions...
Aphrodite Macbain: laughs
Bruce Mowbray: It's that old PASSION thing!
Aphrodite Macbain: gets you every time
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray listens.... shuts mouth.
Korel Laloix: Jain, Islam, Jew, CNA, etc... but not at Christianity really.
Korel Laloix: Still had my mom's hate in my mind...
Wol Euler nods.
Korel Laloix: But...... I got to a really low point.. things fell apart with Celeste for no reason I could find.
Korel Laloix: I had a job, great grades, sex, cigs...life was great.
Aphrodite Macbain: cigs!
Wol Euler smiles.
Korel Laloix: I smoked way too much.. why I was down around 73 lbs.
Korel Laloix: And I was out running on the beach in Tampa one evening and there was this guy reading a very old bible on the beach.. so I was curious and started a conversation.
Korel Laloix: After a while of talking about things he suggested I go to church....
Korel Laloix: I laughed at him and said... predictably.. I cant do Christianity.. I am a lesbian....lol
Wol Euler: :)
Korel Laloix: Soo.. he laughed back at me and gave me a program for the local MCC.
Korel Laloix: Metropolitan Community Church.
Bruce Mowbray: I've attended that one!
Korel Laloix: 97 percent not straight congregation.
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
Wol Euler: yay :)
Aphrodite Macbain: things sure have changed since your mother was growing up
Bruce Mowbray: to say the least!

Korel Laloix: So.. I went and I can't describe it.. I melted.
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray really understands this.
Korel Laloix: Without evening knowing what was really going on... I surrendered y heart and life to Christ before I left that day.
Bruce Mowbray: yes.
Korel Laloix: I can't describe what it did to me...
Aphrodite Macbain: Nothing like finding a religion when you are an adult
Korel Laloix: SO how has it helped......?
Bruce Mowbray: wonderful -- I am so happy for you.
Korel Laloix: Some of my additictions just melted mostly away.
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
Wol Euler: wonderful.
Korel Laloix: The hold alcohol and cigs and sex had on me were hit hard.
Korel Laloix: My understanding of others exploded.
Aphrodite Macbain: that is amazing. Why?
Korel Laloix: My ability to forgive was uncovered.
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: ahhhhhh!
Storm Nordwind smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: (((Korel))))
Korel Laloix: Why?... well, this is strange.... one case in point.
Korel Laloix: I have never been good at accepting thing when people tell me to believe something.
Korel Laloix: So I always had issues with evolution.....
Korel Laloix: But believing in God helped me accept things that are virtually impossible.. so I am more open to it now (even though my math mind still thinks it is only remotely scientific)
Korel Laloix: And my understanding of all religious though is much wider now.
Korel Laloix: I now respect people of any faith.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) ahh, yes, I've been there too!
Korel Laloix: It is funny though...
Korel Laloix: Just tell me to stop.
Wol Euler: don't you dare
Bruce Mowbray: no no!
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Aphrodite Macbain: listens
Korel Laloix: I really did not understand Christianity... I understood there was the Faith and the Religion.
Korel Laloix: But I did not realize that part of the religion in terms of morality was actually part of the Faith as well.. meant to help us live better lives.
Korel Laloix: FOr ourselves and as a community.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: powerful.
Korel Laloix: And by the way, my born again date was April Fools day 2007... lol

Storm Nordwind: Exactly 1 year before the birth of PaB
Wol Euler: :)
Bruce Mowbray: heh heh!
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: It gave you a new morality or it gave you a reason to be moral?
Korel Laloix: Both.
Bruce Mowbray: ironies abound.
Aphrodite Macbain: Nods
Korel Laloix: So the next semester I went off to Germany for an exchange semester.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Korel Laloix: And I still did not understand that Christian morality was both practical and part of the faith.
Korel Laloix: So I went over there high on life and Him.. but still no real sense of morals....
Korel Laloix: And wow did I have a good time.
Bruce Mowbray: fascinating.
Wol Euler smiles.
Korel Laloix: I figured it out eventually though.

Aphrodite Macbain: For me, that morality boils down to what I said at the beginning of the session - “do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
Korel Laloix: Exactly.
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh!
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: it is common to almost every religion
Korel Laloix: So now my Faith and my relationship with Him gives me a careful consideration of how I want to treat others.
Korel Laloix: And how I want to be.
Korel Laloix: And how I want to work to change this word.
Korel Laloix: As I have said before, I do a bit of volunteering.
Korel Laloix: Everything I own can fit in my car.
Korel Laloix: I take care of my step grandma.
Korel Laloix: I am trying to forgive my mother.
Wol Euler nods.
Korel Laloix: And I am doing a school program to hopefully make the world a better place for us all.
Korel Laloix: Sorry for being preachy... smiles
Bruce Mowbray: The "story" of your "path" is an inspiration to me, Kori.
Korel Laloix: I think that is it.
Wol Euler applauds!
Korel Laloix: Sorry for the long wind.
Wol Euler: thank you so much, korel
Korel Laloix: Questions?
Korel Laloix: let me stir.. brb
Wol Euler: don't apologize, it was worth every second
Wol Euler: I'm so glad you have told us this
Bruce Mowbray: indeed.
Aphrodite Macbain: Yahoo! (does a back flip)

Korel Laloix: Thank you for listening.
Wol Euler: my great pleasure :)
Storm Nordwind is very appreciative
 

Wol

Bruce Mowbray now listens for Wol.
Aphrodite Macbain: Wol what have your religious traditions done to help you in your life?
Wol Euler: heh, there are so many sub-questions in that
Wol Euler: I was raised in the spirit but not the practice or the declaration of Protestantism
Aphrodite Macbain: nice way to put it
Wol Euler: what's often called the protestant work ethic is strong in me
Wol Euler: "get up, there's work to be done"
Wol Euler: where work can mean something as complex and long term as helping in an election campaign
Wol Euler: or as brief as noticing an old lady hesitating at the foot of an escalator and taking her hand to get her up it
Wol Euler: (and then taking the parallel one back down again to continue my path)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Wol Euler: I think what I get from the PWE is the obligation to help. If you are in a position to help somebody who needs help - and wants it, separate issue :)
Wol Euler: then you have an absolute and non-debatable obligation to help them
Aphrodite Macbain: PWE?
Korel Laloix smiles
Wol Euler: protestant work ethic
Bruce Mowbray: Protestant Work Ethic.
Aphrodite Macbain: right :-)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Storm Nordwind: Pleasing Wol Euler :)
Wol Euler: my mother was raised catholic and educated in a convent
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Wol Euler: I asked her once, fairly recently, why there was not more overt religion in our childhood, she gave to understand that my father didn't welcome it
Wol Euler: but the spirit was definitely there
Bruce Mowbray is finding this amazingly familiar.
Wol Euler: and the words too
Wol Euler: I realized when I started reading the bible, that I knew all the stories
Wol Euler: all the psalms and proverbs
Aphrodite Macbain: interesting - it imbued the culture of your family
Wol Euler: most of the history
Wol Euler: absolutely
Wol Euler: as it imbues *our* western culture absolutely
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Wol Euler: another wonderful thing it gives me is a background knowledge of our High Culture
Aphrodite Macbain: could you explain?
Wol Euler: my understanding of art in our tradition
Wol Euler: the saints and the stories
Aphrodite Macbain: ah! Familiar territory for me.
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Wol Euler: example: I saw a Lego kit, the tiny kits of a single figure with its accessories
Wol Euler: a soldier in roman garb, on a horse, with a beggar in rags on foot beside him
Wol Euler: the soldier had a cloak
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm
Wol Euler grins and waits to see who gets it
Wol Euler: Saint Martin :)
Wol Euler: anyway
Storm Nordwind: http://www.thebricktestament.com/ ?
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Wol Euler laughs.
Bruce Mowbray recalls St. Martin of the Fields.
Wol Euler: wonderful, storm, thank you
Storm Nordwind: Hours of happy reading there :)
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: that tradition is the foundation of my life and my ideas
Bruce Mowbray: ponders the vitality of narrative.
Wol Euler: when I *did* start reading the bible, I found myself entranced by Ecclesiastes
Bruce Mowbray: oh my.
Wol Euler: that is to me the core of what I value in my tradition
Bruce Mowbray: the wisdom literature.
Wol Euler: and was so surprised and pleased to find how much of that resonates in the Tao and in Buddhism and and and and ... :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Ecclesiastes is beautifully written. A work of great literature.
Bruce Mowbray: a VERY short book - Ecclesiastes . . . and also sort of pessimistic.
Wol Euler: oh I disagree absolutely :)
Wol Euler: it's liberating
Wol Euler: because if all that is vanity, you don't have to care about it!
Storm Nordwind nods
Bruce Mowbray: really? cool! please say more.
Wol Euler: wow!
Aphrodite Macbain: I fell in love with my future husband when he quoted Ecclesiastes to me!
Wol Euler: Ecclesiastes has Buddha nature :)
Bruce Mowbray: oh yes!
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles
Storm Nordwind smiles
Wol Euler: it maps so well onto what he said about illusion and appearance
Bruce Mowbray: Yes! I tried to explain this to the Quakers!
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray slaps his typist again.
Wol Euler: awwww, poor typist
Bruce Mowbray shuts up and listens.
Wol Euler: anyway, that is about where I a    m
--BELL--

2PM
Aphrodite Macbain whispers - that was awesome. Thank you. I must go now to another meeting! Hugs all round.

Everybody

Storm Nordwind: "I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live." - Ecc 3:12 (NIV)
Bruce Mowbray REALLY REALLY wishes he could have heard Aph's story.
Wol Euler: we will :)
Wol Euler: just not tonight
Bruce Mowbray slaps typist once again.
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bruce Mowbray: THANK YOU all for sharing these parts of yourselves.
Wol Euler: I suppose this is by way of saying that the old testament resonates more thoroughly than the new with me
Wol Euler: though Jesus is a great and significant figure
Wol Euler: I find myself disagreeing with the evangelists - and don't get me started on Saint Augustine
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) Oh yeah!
Korel Laloix smiles
Korel Laloix: How about Calvin?
Korel Laloix grins
Wol Euler: I like the idea of the God of Genesis, who walks in his garden in the cool of the evening and enjoys a good meal with his friends
Wol Euler: that is a god I can - and do - relate to
Bruce Mowbray: Indeed!
Storm Nordwind smiles
Wol Euler: we have a small-town neighbourly nodding relationship :)
Storm Nordwind: very much a polytheist view too
Korel Laloix grins
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Korel Laloix: One thing I find interesting is that I don't have issues telling this stuff here, but I don't really tell my "testimony" at church.
Wol Euler: having been to japans and looked at Shinto in practice, I find a kind of feeling for that too
Wol Euler: heh, interesting korel.
Wol Euler: which echoes also in Rumi
Storm Nordwind: Shinto - veneration of ancestors - also very heathen
Wol Euler: the idea of everything being full of god
Wol Euler: there is no "god" outside of it, over there, above
Wol Euler: this is all god
Wol Euler: you, me, the keyboard, my cup of tea, that spider
Bruce Mowbray: yes, that's the basis of my pantheism, Wol.
Storm Nordwind: nondual
Storm Nordwind: (like the railway) ;)
Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
Bruce Mowbray: We're all here.
Bruce Mowbray: We're all sharing this reality.
Wol Euler: it deepens the delight I already and always had in nature, in the simple joy of being alive.
Bruce Mowbray: We're all having different perceptions of what that means -- and that is wonderful!
Wol Euler: the feeling of a cool breeze blowing past my face as I sit in the shade of a tree on a sunny day
Wol Euler: that is god
Wol Euler: eh, I better stop before I get totally silly
Bruce Mowbray: AHHH! Thank you for sharing that breeze, Wol!
Storm Nordwind: But this god, that is all for you Wol... does it have consciousness, intent, will, or is it just neutral?
Wol Euler: I'm not sure
Wol Euler: I don't know whether those are even the right kinds of questions to ask about him/it
Wol Euler: I do NOT believe that he wants us to live in a specific way, other than that bit about helping and being sensible
Wol Euler: and I certainly don't believe that he wants us to hate others who don't
Bruce Mowbray: anthropomorphic questions. . . . Perhaps better to ask my dog?
Korel Laloix: OK.. have to stuff the enchiladas now.. thanks for the chat all.
Wol Euler: bye korel, bon appetit :)
Bruce Mowbray: THANK you so much, Kori!!!
Korel Laloix: Take care.. blessings.
Storm Nordwind: Let me put it another way... would there be any benefit - or even sense - in praying to such a god?
Korel Laloix: Donadagohvi
Storm Nordwind waves
Wol Euler: let me answer that by quoting Terry Pratchett :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Bruce Mowbray also chuckles.
Wol Euler: in "Small Gods" a philosopher is talking about Great A'Tuin, the turtle on whose back stand the four elephants that hold up the world
Wol Euler: somebody asks whether we should believe in Great A'Tuin
Bruce Mowbray knows where this is going.
Wol Euler: philosopher replies "it's true, it doesn't matter whether you believe in it or not"
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)))))))))
Bruce Mowbray remembers Wol saying exactly that in Halifax last July.
Wol Euler: I'm talking myself into a corner here
Wol Euler: heheheheheh
Wol Euler: yes, I have a habit of repeating myself
Storm Nordwind throws Wol a rope
Bruce Mowbray: no rope needed for Wol./
Bruce Mowbray: She's doing FINE!
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Wol Euler: I'm not sure how to answer your question, storm
Wol Euler: I don't have an answer for that, because I don't know for myself what those terms really mean
Storm Nordwind: That's OK! :)
Storm Nordwind: That's the answer.
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Storm Nordwind: I don't use those terms myself, but wanted to know your frame of reference
Wol Euler: I suppose I would say that god is/has/does equanimity :)
--BELL--
Wol Euler: neutral rather than judgmental
Storm Nordwind: Right.
Storm Nordwind recalls Heathenry had a very pragmatic viewpoint. Heathens didn't think it useful to talk to gods (or goddesses) that wouldn't answer back!
Wol Euler: a couple of touchstones
Bruce Mowbray loves touchstones.
Wol Euler: the early gods were not omnipresent, they were bound to particular places
Wol Euler: didn't know what happened behind their backs, as it were
Wol Euler: I found that fascinating, compared to the abrahamic god who has no back
Wol Euler: and the Shoah idea that the holocaust happened behind god's back, because Creation was too big for him to see all of it
Wol Euler: another: the bell at the shinto temple
Wol Euler: you ring the bell and clap your hands to wake god
Wol Euler: because he/it should be awake to hear/feel/acknowledge/partake of you
Wol Euler: well, the abrahamic god would surely burn to a cinder anyone who woke him!
Storm Nordwind: Nah
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray is ready to burn.
Bruce Mowbray: but not for the god of Abraham...
Wol Euler: we whisper in church
Wol Euler: just the opposite of drawing attention to ourselves
Bruce Mowbray: for the fundamental basis of all of it.
Bruce Mowbray: if there are turtles that reach that low!
Wol Euler pauses for thought. Does this make sense?
Storm Nordwind: yes of course
Bruce Mowbray: is makes sense better than sense, Wol.
Wol Euler: thank you :)
Bruce Mowbray: This is your laboratory of experience . . .
Bruce Mowbray: and as such, trumps all "sense."
Bruce Mowbray: and all dogma.
Bruce Mowbray: I am truly sorry to leave this session.
Bruce Mowbray: Has been most valuable.
Storm Nordwind: Dogma is obviated when you can have two-way communication with a god
Wol Euler: indeed
Bruce Mowbray: THANK you both!
Wol Euler: thank you too, Bruce
Wol Euler: _/!\_
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks*
Storm Nordwind: Bye then guys
Wol Euler: bye bruce, bye storm
Bruce Mowbray: I bow in respect to you both.
Wol Euler: thank you, storm, and thank absent Korel and Aph too
Storm Nordwind: /namaste dear friends
Wol Euler: take care