2012.04.23 19:00 - Ways of Approaching and Experiencing

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

Pema Pera: Hi O !
oO0Oo Resident: Good Morning Pema :)
Pema Pera: thank you :)
Pema Pera: it's a nice morning here, perfect temperature in Kyoto.
Pema Pera: the last few days have been a bit cold
oO0Oo Resident: prefecture perfect ;)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: I haven't been able to be in-world the last couple days
Pema Pera: the topic has been equanimity, I read
Pema Pera: did you get a chance to catch some of that?
oO0Oo Resident: Catching right now.. but yes :)
oO0Oo Resident: bits
Pema Pera: any thoughts about the topic and/or what has been said so far?
oO0Oo Resident: hmmm
Korel Laloix: Heya
oO0Oo Resident: Many angles.. and hmmm.. ways of approaching and experiencing.. My thoughts in this moments are..
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Korel
Pema Pera: hi Korel!
oO0Oo Resident: Thinking about a kind of personal journey carried on from RL into PaB
Korel Laloix: What sort?
oO0Oo Resident: I lived in a community for a while in which i was struck by.. the equanimous appearances of certain people over time.
Korel Laloix: Can you tell more?
Pema Pera: that can be very inspiring!
oO0Oo Resident: There were maybe 25-40 people living together .. and I chose a personal practice around arriving to dinner..
oO0Oo Resident: Iwhen i entered the dining room.. i would simply take a moment to feel the space and who was in the space
oO0Oo Resident: Some people would have already been seated
Pema Pera: (Hi Raffi)
Korel Laloix: Bozho
Raffila Millgrove: hi -0- Korel and Pema
oO0Oo Resident: I felt in myself the push and pull aspects of where I wanted to sit, where I did not want to.. Who i wanted to sit with.. Who I did not want to.. (Hi Raffi)
oO0Oo Resident: Then i would choose someplace to sit.. not along these rules, or forces per se..
oO0Oo Resident: but just let something be different on the evening
oO0Oo Resident: Of course
oO0Oo Resident: i also ignored people and opportunities..
oO0Oo Resident: So.. when i first came to PaB.. I noticed
oO0Oo Resident: I had this opportunity here to
oO0Oo Resident: to work with this sense of friend, enemy, stranger.. as it is called in certain frameworks
oO0Oo Resident: sitting here in the circle
oO0Oo Resident: also
oO0Oo Resident: feeling what I would like to say
oO0Oo Resident: or not say
oO0Oo Resident: and then also
oO0Oo Resident: in the logs
oO0Oo Resident: various aspects of what one might like to highlight or not
oO0Oo Resident: especially
oO0Oo Resident: the first part, where
oO0Oo Resident: some people like to include.. who attended
oO0Oo Resident: {done..}
Pema Pera: Thank you, O, that's a very interesting parallel RL/SL
Pema Pera: hi Santo!
Korel Laloix: Heya
Santoshima Resident: hi everyone :)
Pema Pera: did you also feel a parallel in what you learned from it, and how you felt about your choices afterwards?
--BELL--
oO0Oo Resident: not sure i understand your question fully, but it was kind of a concerted practice for me.. yet upon sitting.. ofcourse all aspects of eight worldly concerns just keep nipping.
Pema Pera: :) yes . . . they tend to do so. In general, I find it most difficult to do an awareness practice while talking with somebody, because the engagement in a conversation can easily take over completely, leaving no room for reflection
Pema Pera: so doing this the moment you enter a conversation place, before being fully immersed in it, is an interesting approach
Pema Pera: both in RL and SL
Pema Pera: so I was curious whether what you learned from each case was similar, in RL and SL
Pema Pera: (reflecting later on the reflecting you did in the situation, in both cases)
oO0Oo Resident: I think so.. very similar
oO0Oo Resident: still learning
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: O and I started this conversation when I asked about equanimity, the topic that Aphrodite had suggested for this week
Pema Pera: and it's a fascinating question to which extent equanimity is related to reflection
Pema Pera: for me, it is one of those many balance challenges:
Pema Pera: too little reflection, and I tend to fall into situations where I can loose myself
Pema Pera: and too much reflection, and I see myself reacting less authentically
Raffila Millgrove: oh ty. arriving a little late i didn't quite see a connection to suggested theme.. now it is very clearly stated. ty for restating.
Pema Pera: yw :)
oO0Oo Resident: is there , in your experience.. different speeds or abilities in reflection Pema? I ask this, because.. i feel so slow to grasp things at times when pondering situations, and what others say.. then .. it is a question of where the conversation has gone.. in that gap..
Pema Pera: great question . . . .
Pema Pera: in my experience it has less to do with speed, and more with being "in tune"
Pema Pera: and that in turn is so very hard to put into words . . . .
Pema Pera: does anyone want to try to do so?
Santoshima Resident: well, i think it also, for me, has to do with reading
Santoshima Resident: and the way text is processed
Raffila Millgrove: i think that it does have to do with speed. some people keep up "fast" most of the time. It's like joke punchlines. you feel a little stupid that everyone has laughed while you are still.. trying to "get it".
Santoshima Resident: which it seems, is less than direct
Santoshima Resident: yes, dirfferent speeds of reflecting
Raffila Millgrove: sometimes i don't get it in my "mind".. i feel it. then later i think to see.. why? what did my insticts pick up that my mind.. didnt' catch it.. immediately.
Raffila Millgrove: and other people sometimes cannot even state clearly what it is they Feel.. you have to sit with them.. while they are figuring out how to use words for it.
Korel Laloix: That happens to me a bit.
Pema Pera: yes, and that in itself is a very different kind of dance -- a more slow dance in some way
Korel Laloix: Not just because of the language.
Raffila Millgrove: sometimes when you are deeply affected--you dont' even want to use words.. to talk. you're not in a "talk" mode.
--BELL--
Korel Laloix: Agreed.
oO0Oo Resident: alternate ways of knowing.. thinking of how.. clouds give glimpses of sky.. then there could be a kind of pure sky aspect.. and an immersed cloud aspect.. but attunement might have to do with at least some glances at sky.. or something
Pema Pera: what is said versus what is not said . . . that aspect too?
oO0Oo Resident: feel such sadness for what is not said at times.. but that shows up my lack of equanimity
Korel Laloix: So much of communication is not words though.
oO0Oo Resident: so true Korel
Raffila Millgrove: we're somewhat limited being in text without other cues. tone of voice even.. or smiles or winks. in fact.. my husband said the other day--what is this.. that people stick a smiling icon after they just said something that really wasn't too nice? what's that about? I said. i duno. i often wonder why sticking a "fake" smiles on something is ok.
Korel Laloix: It gives an emotional tint... it works for me.
Korel Laloix: But I grew up with emoticons, maybe a generational thing.
Raffila Millgrove: it's strange how the frown emoticon is never used in fake ways.. so often used to show commeriseration but the smiley one is often.. used to soften what's really a blow and probably shouldn't have been said.
Raffila Millgrove: but that little frown.. nearly always.. used to show.. "oh i feel for you!" that is least pretty cool.
Pema Pera: I wonder about RL parallels: looking friendly while saying something quite unfriendly
Pema Pera: which often happens in business settings
Raffila Millgrove: yes. we do it here with the smiley. achieve exactly that experience in rl.
Korel Laloix: A skill any customer service person has.
Raffila Millgrove: yep
Korel Laloix: I do it all the time.
Pema Pera nods
Pema Pera: Sam, I'd love to hear more about: [19:33] Samúð (oo0oo): feel such sadness for what is not said at times.. but that shows up my lack of equanimity
Raffila Millgrove: this is why i never use it. if i want to show smiling. i write Raffi smiles. or I write that i touch the person gentle etc. so i am trying to be clear in expressing to another an emotion.
Korel Laloix: I realized a while back that I never use emoticons here in SL.. I spell out my emotes.
Korel Laloix: Not sure why though.
Raffila Millgrove nods and thinks -0- is going to write about the sadness?
Santoshima Resident: i will continue to use the fake :). as it is quite foreign to me, and am just getting used to it ... i'd like to hear more as well 0
oO0Oo Resident: not.. sure.. how to encapsulate..
Korel Laloix: Please
oO0Oo Resident: a desire to understand and connect and share..
oO0Oo Resident: and there is an outer layer of text
oO0Oo Resident: flowing
oO0Oo Resident: peoples mind streams
oO0Oo Resident: and something of my own inner outer journey in that
oO0Oo Resident: or perhaps insights
oO0Oo Resident: feeling gaps
Korel Laloix: One things about things that are not said that has always confused me is.....
oO0Oo Resident: and encountering my limitations
oO0Oo Resident: and perceptions of speed and pace
oO0Oo Resident: [done]
Santoshima Resident: ty
Raffila Millgrove: ty -0- we likely all feel that. sometimes. maybe you feel more.
Korel Laloix: So many hatefull things that should not be said are said... and so many thoughts of love and care that should be said never are.... or are said too late.
Pema Pera: nicely uncapsulated, O !
Pema Pera: yes, the many layers, from texts to mind streams to associations for all of us, to the dance of responses
Pema Pera: guessing at sensitivities, as Korel said
oO0Oo Resident: the silences are like flashes of unborn opportunity..
Pema Pera: in a way harder in SL, and yet, because it's harder, it's easier too . . . because we now it is harder to be sensitive with less information -- more like poetry, like you uncapsulating
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: waves
Korel Laloix: But the other end of it is there as well.
Santoshima Resident: hello stevenaia !
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Stevenaia // Like if you ever felt, as I have.. that you wish you could embrace another person's whole life.. be their parent from scatch.. and heal all there wounds.. but that is a flash.. and just a tenderness.. a poignant ache.
Korel Laloix: I tend to be overly agressive and upfront sometimes.... which carries its own hazards.
Pema Pera: hi Steve!
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Korel Laloix: So back to the balance thing.
oO0Oo Resident: *all their
oO0Oo Resident: that is the sadness in what is unsaid
Pema Pera: perhaps the wish itself has its own power . . .
Pema Pera: the wish to heal
Korel Laloix: Thanks for the thoughts and chat.. back to RL for a bit... Ciao all.
Pema Pera: bye Korel!
Raffila Millgrove: -0- but if we're lucky. they do appear again and we can catch. do you think -0-? that we get second chances in it?
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Korel
oO0Oo Resident: Bye Korel
Santoshima Resident: bye Korel ~ take good care
Raffila Millgrove: bye Korel
Raffila Millgrove: i was speaking to what you said were unborn opportunities.
stevenaia Michinaga: "unborn opportunities."?
oO0Oo Resident: well.. for myself..
oO0Oo Resident: i know that i encounter my tendencies
oO0Oo Resident: over and over again
oO0Oo Resident: and again
oO0Oo Resident: and ..
oO0Oo Resident: again
Raffila Millgrove: [19:44] Samúð: the silences are like flashes of unborn opportunity..
stevenaia Michinaga: ty
Pema Pera nods, knowing about such encounters
Raffila Millgrove wondered if there are second changes.. to capture the losses in the silence. i think so.
Raffila Millgrove: chances.
Raffila Millgrove: over time. you get another chance if you recognize it. passed.
stevenaia Michinaga: do second chance imply regret?
Raffila Millgrove: hi Roger.
oO0Oo Resident: well.. I wonder.. Raffi
Raffila Millgrove: to me? no. i dont' know how -0- feels.
oO0Oo Resident: in as much as..
oO0Oo Resident: what might be happening for me in a second chance situation..
oO0Oo Resident: is that i am reifying the storyline.. rather than living in the freshness of the moment
oO0Oo Resident: and making a stronger habit
oO0Oo Resident: so the trick seems to be to find a way to love myself
oO0Oo Resident: and then
oO0Oo Resident: the quality of love in this situation
oO0Oo Resident: is not what I may have traditionally thought love was
oO0Oo Resident: but that is me.. or something like a me
oO0Oo Resident: Hi Roger
Raffila Millgrove sent roger an IM and also the PaB notecard in case others busy in listening.
oO0Oo Resident: ty
Raffila Millgrove: wow what an interesting answer to that question.
Raffila Millgrove: not what I might have expected--but.. appreciate your sharing that insight into how you are thinking in it.
Pema Pera: (thanks, Raffi, I just IMed and Roger told me he has been here before)
--BELL--
Raffila Millgrove: yes.. he is in new avatar but i noticed his profile indicates he has.. lived in SL.
Pema Pera: so every encounter is a first chance, is some way, would that be a way to summarize, Sam?
l314159265 Resident: Hi Everyone. I know I am a little late for this session.
Pema Pera: that's fine, Roger!
oO0Oo Resident: Nice to see you Roger
Raffila Millgrove: hi Roger. it's great that you came!
Santoshima Resident: hello Roger, welcome
oO0Oo Resident: We have been exploring "Equanimity"
l314159265 Resident: Thanks all.
Raffila Millgrove: did you think.. that in what -0- described there was some lack of equinimity or lack of balance. i honestly didn't see it that way. I thought what he said was the human condition.
stevenaia Michinaga: night all :)
oO0Oo Resident: There are so many doors into such a word.. for instance the etymology here: http://is.gd/nqVk2H is so sort of different in ways from the highly frameworked Tibetan Buddhist notions here say: http://is.gd/AIFRFv .. this later a bit more of my rub in life.
oO0Oo Resident: Night Stev
Raffila Millgrove: bye Steve.
Pema Pera: bye Steve
Raffila Millgrove: mm that Tibet definition seem to be about our relationships to other. doesn't seem to focus much on self.
Raffila Millgrove: seem like a second step i mean for first holding a balance in self.. so that one could then look to others.
oO0Oo Resident: in a sense .. this sense of self is all i have to work with.. but it may not lead to a greater confidence in a self at all.. so.. various ways to come at the words..
oO0Oo Resident: If i realised emptiness.. in the jargon.. I would not need to be sad about things.. perhaps.. a work in progress..
Pema Pera slips away, RL calling; thank you all for a great theme-like session!
Raffila Millgrove: bye Pema. thank you for hosting us.
oO0Oo Resident: Thanks Pema.. Hi to all in Japan :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: bfn
Santoshima Resident: bye Pema ~ good to see you
oO0Oo Resident: i feel Pema manifests eqaunimity..
Raffila Millgrove: well -0-.. this is only said personally. by me. not as anything of advice to others.. I am saving this detachment for another life. I don't want to give up feeling happy or sad for others. and i am not sure .. how practical it might be for everyone to hope for that steady state of equaminity.
Raffila Millgrove: i know some make it. certainly. that they achieve.. i personally don't want to achieve it in the religious senses.. Being fair-mided.. as the first definition... that's hard enough.. that's enough for me to work on. to hold steady and be fair minded to all.
l314159265 Resident: Goodnight (I will arrive earlier next time!)
Santoshima Resident: that could be a definition of the same, raffi ~
oO0Oo Resident: i do think there is discipline and effort involved in training in becoming our true selves.. then on the other hand...
Santoshima Resident: good night roger
--BELL--
Raffila Millgrove: i come at this so different .. because i am other end.. i am not striving towards. I did that .. all my life. This self-perfection thing--to be my best. now i feel i want to relax. to accept .. to accept the regrets and failures and stop beating myself and let it go.
Raffila Millgrove: like i did my best. i don't want to keep trying to do better. i want to just relax and let go and say 'it's ok." and mean it. does that make sense?
oO0Oo Resident: I think perhaps if one were to look deeply.. into what it means to be fair.. or what fairness is.. there is a lot of journey there. Thinking of Marcus Aurelius as an example.. his Meditations. Yes Raffi.. I understand the wish to relax when doing battle with ones desires.. Wonder if that is yet another desire.
Raffila Millgrove: i feel like these are old travelled paths.. i want to know what younger peole have to teach me.. they are on paths that might go.. other worlds. other places we don't know.
oO0Oo Resident: There is sense of past.. I did my best.. and yet.. reality is not over.. what is our best in this next moment.. maybe now.. to relax..
Raffila Millgrove: yes.
oO0Oo Resident: glimpse of sky
Raffila Millgrove: it's not over. i feel i can still take many journeys but now. I want to see the future thru the eyes of the young.
Santoshima Resident: smiling over here
Raffila Millgrove: it's not mine, it's their future--but i want glimpses of it. what seeds are they planting?
Raffila Millgrove: sometimes they say things--gives me much hope. i learn new things. i am happy to learn .. to see new places or hear of them..
Raffila Millgrove: i don't want to focus on myself anymore. just me.
Raffila Millgrove: you speak of battles and struggle -0-.. that's what i want to give it up.. and really did give it up.
Raffila Millgrove: why didyou smile San?
oO0Oo Resident: Kind of a shift in topic, but will leave you with this link about the young, and their world.. http://humaneconnectionblog.blogspot...activists.html
Raffila Millgrove: cool thank you. i will check it out.
Raffila Millgrove stands up and hugs both.. and says good night.
Santoshima Resident: refreshing, what you wrote
Santoshima Resident: goodnight to you both ~ peaceful day
oO0Oo Resident: was struck when reading that article.. about how.. we can all be young in a sense.. if we allow ourselves to let go in ways..
oO0Oo Resident: bfn
Raffila Millgrove: cool looks like a great article.
Santoshima Resident: bye sam ! shanthi
Santoshima Resident: 'night raffi
Santoshima Resident: &
Santoshima Resident: goodnight moon