2012.06.17 13:00 - Portugal and the value of competition

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Good

Aphrodite Macbain:

 Kori and I are lying on coloured inner tubes floating in the fountain. A peaceful but colourful scence.

Korel Laloix: Should we change into pool attire?
Aphrodite Macbain: naaa
Korel Laloix: Good... I like my little explorer outfit.
Korel Laloix: So what is the topic for today?
Aphrodite Macbain: me too
Aphrodite Macbain: ummm
Aphrodite Macbain: competition and excellence; what do you think?
Korel Laloix: Well.. I am both competitive and excellent.
Korel Laloix: So we are talking about me then?... smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: about many
--BELL--
Korel Laloix: Yes.. I am excellent in many ways...
Korel Laloix smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: yes u are
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: you are in your 18th c duds
Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce- settle down! (Bruce is floating mid air)
Aphrodite Macbain: oops
Korel Laloix: dawuoh4535nkjkoop[op-]paVDT
Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce poofed
Korel Laloix: I think he will be back.
Aphrodite Macbain: He's having problems with his signal

Korel Laloix: The Cat says hi.
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: dawuoh4535nkjkoop[op-]paVDT = cat language?
Korel Laloix: Cat paw and butt typing.
Aphrodite Macbain: haha
Aphrodite Macbain: ah yes
Korel Laloix: Such a bit cat... when he sit on yr chest it makes it hard to breath.
Korel Laloix: But he is soooo comfy.
Korel Laloix: Keeps me warm.
Aphrodite Macbain: Nods. Like a big baby...

So Korey- do you think competitions have value?
Korel Laloix: Without a doubt.
Aphrodite Macbain: people trying to be better than other people? or is sit just a big ego trip?
Korel Laloix: It can be both.
Korel Laloix: I force myself to compete and do better.. so I learn more.
Aphrodite Macbain: How is it valuable? What do you learn that is useful?
Korel Laloix: Cell phone companies compete…giving me better service at lower prices.
Aphrodite Macbain: Ah - commercial competition - yes. That's true in an open economy
Korel Laloix: Competition makes me push myself.
Korel Laloix: Makes others push themselves.
Aphrodite Macbain: Is that necessarily a good thing? Pushing yourself?
Korel Laloix: But..... like everything else.
Korel Laloix: It can be bad.... if used wrong.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods. Our world is SO competitive

Better

Aphrodite Macbain: Everybody wants to be right. To be better than everyone else.
Aphrodite Macbain: It creates divisiveness, snobbism, the concept of the "elite"
Korel Laloix: Not sure that is the word.
Aphrodite Macbain: which word?
Korel Laloix: I want to be better than other runners... I don't want to be a superior person.. as that is not possible.
Korel Laloix: better is the word I mean.
Aphrodite Macbain: why do you want to be better than other runners? Isn't being a healthy runner enough for you?
Aphrodite Macbain: Why do we arrange our world into hierarchies?
Korel Laloix: Why not?
Korel Laloix: So we can all be the same and boring and complacent?
Aphrodite Macbain: Because it would perhaps allow ourselvs to accept people the way they are
Korel Laloix: And in the end stagnant.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi San
Korel Laloix: Why would I want people the way they are when they can grow?
Korel Laloix: You want a world were we are condemned to be the same all our lives?
Aphrodite Macbain: no we will all be different anyway
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: we cant help being different
Korel Laloix: So you want people to drift from couch potato to porch potato to bed potato?... smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: Why is winning a good thing?

Korel Laloix: Winning is a very imprecise word.
Korel Laloix: I want people always pushing themselves to do better.
Korel Laloix: Be more creative, more focused, more productive.
Aphrodite Macbain: I don’t need to be pushed to be better than anyone else or in order to do a good job
Korel Laloix: No.. but competition helps you push yourself.
Aphrodite Macbain: We all have our own criteria for success
Korel Laloix: Agreed.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Eos,
Korel Laloix: osiyo
Aphrodite Macbain: which in itself can be unreasonable!
Eos Amaterasu: Sacre Bleu!
Aphrodite Macbain: Eos and Koru - we are talking about the value of competition and winning.
Eos Amaterasu: playing in the pool, eh, aph, korel, san
Korel Laloix: So if our own measure of success can be unreasonable.. use a societal competitive idea.
Eos Amaterasu: oh is that the theme?
Aphrodite Macbain: it is Eos. Join (in the fountain) us Eos

Korel Laloix: Heya.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Santoshima Resident: hi Eos
archdivine Resident: hi all
Eos Amaterasu: hi arch
Aphrodite Macbain: Hey Arch

Aphrodite Macbain: What do you think about the value of competition?
Santoshima Resident: howdy archdivine
Aphrodite Macbain: Does it encourage excellence or does it make people feel constantly inadequate?
Korel Laloix: Nothing can make you feel anything.
Korel Laloix: You have to choose.
Eos Amaterasu: I think at its best it's spirit meeting the highest possible of spirit
Aphrodite Macbain: what does that mean Eos?

Eos Amaterasu: really tough competitions often seem to be determined by an edge of "spirit", "inspiration", something like that: things are going your way, the universe’s wind is blowing through you
Aphrodite Macbain: So Eos, we win in order to briefly feel that inspirational "high"?
Eos Amaterasu: no, Aph
Eos Amaterasu: we compete in order to connect with it
Eos Amaterasu: and make it not separate from ourselves
Aphrodite Macbain: with what? Being the best?
archdivine Resident: participating is better than winning: is the Olympic spirit
Korel Laloix: I will never be a super model.. I would loose that competition every time..... Do I care? Not at all.
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe a better question might be, does winning make us happier?
Korel Laloix: Yes... for a short time.
Eos Amaterasu: can we make this question more concrete?
archdivine Resident: its also a thing of life-stage
archdivine Resident: young boys always wanna compete
Korel Laloix: We want to compete as well.. just in different ways.
Aphrodite Macbain: a very fleeting state of being... an adrenalin rush
Eos Amaterasu: Hei Zen
Korel Laloix: heya
archdivine Resident: hi zen
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
Aphrodite Macbain: Zen, we’re talking about the value of competition and of winning
Santoshima Resident: hi Zen
Eos Amaterasu: But of course a lot of competition is identity and ego jockeying
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: those are the lines I was thinking along Eos.

archdivine Resident: in soccer tv-rights are very valuable
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Eos Amaterasu: relative reference to the max
Korel Laloix: Yes... but maybe a better question would be how crap life would be without competition.
Eos Amaterasu: would there be life without competition?
Korel Laloix: If you believe in evolution, no.
archdivine Resident: rating is competition
Aphrodite Macbain: I have very little competition in my life- and it’s still very interesting. Learning new things, meeting new people, exploring, creating, writing- that's not competitive but it’s interesting and engaging
Eos Amaterasu: life is also adaptation
Eos Amaterasu: different kind of winning the competition
archdivine Resident: a good winner is a good looser
Aphrodite Macbain: I set my own personal standards
Santoshima Resident: really?

Aphrodite Macbain: I try to. But I try not to impose them on others.
Korel Laloix: But you enjoy the fruits of others' competition.

Aphrodite Macbain: How do I do that Kori?

archdivine Resident: ok
Zen Arado: competition involves comparing with others
Korel Laloix: You are on SL. This is a result of competition in the cyber world market.

Aphrodite Macbain: It is also because of some very creative people who are not motivated by winning but by exploring and inventing
Korel Laloix: Or comparing to yourself.
Zen Arado: why not do the best you can anyway?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- implying value
archdivine Resident: ok
Zen Arado: do we need to beat others?
archdivine Resident: u can also compete in innovation
Korel Laloix: Not a need... but it can be fun.. or frustrating.
Eos Amaterasu: like, was Apple and Jobs "in competition", or were they inspired to be "insanely great" (which is beyond old reference points)"?
Zen Arado: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: yes setting their own standards
Aphrodite Macbain: or goals
Korel Laloix: They were competing.
Eos Amaterasu: competing to be their best
Aphrodite Macbain: based on other values than simply winning
Eos Amaterasu: and incidentally MS sucked
--BELL--
Korel Laloix: And beat Sony and Microsoft etc.
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Zen Arado: but competing for market share I guess
Aphrodite Macbain: When we talk about competition and winning in the market place, we enter the world of economic systems, laisser faire or adam smith
Eos Amaterasu: no, the winning game was to create markets that didn't previously exist
Eos Amaterasu: and that's what the world needs right now, re the financial system(s)
Eos Amaterasu finds " invisible hands" to be creepy
archdivine Resident: finance is just a measure of trust
Aphrodite Macbain: But would it be nice if the prize was not power and wealth but something more valuable to the greater good?
archdivine Resident: sure
Eos Amaterasu: power goes to everyone's head
archdivine Resident: good attention to your neighbour
archdivine Resident: is of value too
Aphrodite Macbain: people seem to compete to be better than others rather than be the best they can for a better world
Korel Laloix: Some people do yes.
archdivine Resident: u can create faith
Aphrodite Macbain: I will stop now as I sound like Pollyanna
Santoshima Resident: what's a polyanna?

Aphrodite Macbain: absurdly optimistic san  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollyanna
Santoshima Resident: ok

Korel Laloix: But why is that bad?
Aphrodite Macbain: what?
Eos Amaterasu: competition seems to be part of play
Korel Laloix: If I am competing with another drug maker to cure breast cancer....
Korel Laloix: Why is competition bad?
Eos Amaterasu: it's creating roles, and letting them play against each other
archdivine Resident: ok
Aphrodite Macbain: but why not work WITH the other company rather compete Kori?
archdivine Resident: we can compete in working together

archdivine Resident: and portugal beats Netherlands. with 2-1

Korel Laloix: Seems Germany beat Denmark.... bad competition... smiles

Eos Amaterasu: congrats Portugal; hi Bruce

Aphrodite Macbain: why not collaborate? It would save a lot of time and money. Especially in medical research
archdivine Resident: with a prize for the best cooperation
Korel Laloix: Agreed.. work with..
Eos Amaterasu: there's a lot of competition in collaboration tools for the internet

Bruce Mowbray: sry to be so late, but we've just had a bad storm -- knocked me off-line for the first part of this session.
Aphrodite Macbain: I noticed Bruce. Welcome back
Aphrodite Macbain: we are having a stormy, non competitive discussion on the value of competition and winning

Korel Laloix: But in the end.... the companies compete for patents...and that gets things in our hands quicker.
archdivine Resident: hi Bruce
 

Santoshima Resident: competition as in "for profit"?

Aphrodite Macbain: no San . competition as in “winning and being right”

Santoshima Resident: quotes Eos Amaterasu: there's a lot of competition in collaboration tools for the internet

Santoshima Resident: aph

archdivine Resident: can also be wellbeing
Santoshima Resident: of course
Santoshima Resident: but i was referring aph, to eos comment
Aphrodite Macbain: nods at San

archdivine Resident: bruce
Zen Arado: Hi Bruce
Santoshima Resident: hi bruce
Santoshima Resident: pull up a flamingo?
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, everyone!
Zen Arado: Ronaldo is so good
archdivine Resident: sure
Aphrodite Macbain: Hye Wol
Korel Laloix: Again... I think a better question may be about how damaging a lack of competition is.
archdivine Resident: hi wol
Bruce Mowbray: Competition is about seeking identity.
Wol Euler: hello everyone, sorry I'm late
Zen Arado: Hi Wol
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol!
Aphrodite Macbain: Our question we are discussing is “what value does competition have?”

Santoshima Resident: value, doesn't include financial profit
Santoshima Resident: greed
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Wol - suddenly you're here!
Wol Euler waves.
Aphrodite Macbain: sings "Suddenly she's heeere"
Aphrodite Macbain: I think we can safely say that there is value in competition in some fields but not others
Bruce Mowbray ponders which field competition would not be valued.
Korel Laloix: Agreed.
Korel Laloix: Drug use.
Aphrodite Macbain: science research
Wol Euler nods.
Korel Laloix: Blood Alcohol Level.
Wol Euler: good example
Wol Euler: +s
Aphrodite Macbain: collaboration is more effective, efficient and cost saving especially in research

Zen Arado: creating losers isn't always good
Korel Laloix: That is a nice idea Aph.. but I would like to see the research.
Bruce Mowbray: yes, but collaboration will not win you the Nobel Prize...(exclusively).
Aphrodite Macbain: I agree Zen- it can be destructive
Eos Amaterasu: but there's a lot of competition in science

Aphrodite Macbain: you mean in science research Eos?

Eos Amaterasu: yes, aph
Wol Euler: unfortunately the drug companies are not in the business of making us healthier (to stick with that example) their business model is simply to earn money by selling us stuff

Santoshima Resident: hence my comment about profit, wol
Santoshima Resident: aph
Wol Euler: yepo
Zen Arado: agree Wol
Korel Laloix: Most data points to light levels of stress to providing the best performance.
Zen Arado: a cure doesn't keep you buying a drug :)

Wol Euler: heheh, much shouting outside. I infer that one sporting team has defeated

Eos Amaterasu: Portugal
Korel Laloix: Portugal and Germany won.another.
Wol Euler: ah :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yayyy for Portugal and Germany.

Wol Euler: heheheheh

Aphrodite Macbain: Why should I care if Portugal won?

Bruce Mowbray: What have you got against Portugal, Aph?

Aphrodite Macbain: absolutely nothing Bruce - I just don’t care who the winner is

Bruce Mowbray: The big pharma companies are thinking we won't buy their stuff unless it works, though.
Aphrodite Macbain: But is that a good thing? Wouldn't it be better if the researchers worked together on a problem?
Eos Amaterasu: not necessarily
Wol Euler: it would be much better for us, aph, yes
Wol Euler: okay, yes and no
Korel Laloix: Competition may bring better and quicker results.
Eos Amaterasu: often you try different competing approaches
Korel Laloix: You should not care.
Aphrodite Macbain: I doubt it Kore
Eos Amaterasu: or spawn off separate teams for each
Korel Laloix: I don’t.
Wol Euler: sharing data might bring cheaper results by letting others avoid duplicating our failures
Eos Amaterasu: that's very true, Wol
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Wol.
Wol Euler: cheaper and faster
Eos Amaterasu: "Open Data" !!!
Bruce Mowbray: But perhaps less lucrative.
Korel Laloix: Or it would let complacent researchers secure in the jobs to do as little as possible to keep their jobs for as long as possible. Thus pushing back results for decades.
Wol Euler: vastly so, Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, my point Wol. Competition fractures the information
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eos Amaterasu: it should be possible to be non-competitive without have slack spirit
Korel Laloix: Yes... it should be.
Eos Amaterasu: in fact you see that all the time - it's called passion!

Aphrodite Macbain: It would be cheaper for all of us
Korel Laloix: Yes.. cheaper with no results.

--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: ??? How can you say that Kori/. If there were 3 teams of scientists working on a problem wouldn't it be better if they all worked together?
Wol Euler: the film "contagion" is a good example of how that can work, even in medical research
Korel Laloix: About the only example of collaborative research that I know of that works are the Children’s hospitals in Memphis.But almost all of their income is from donations and patent derived.
Korel Laloix: Most of the rest of useful drugs come from companies wanted to compete.
Aphrodite Macbain: I forget the film Wol

Wol Euler: quite recent, fighting against a new highly infectious disease
Wol Euler: *not* a good film to watch on an airplane!
Bruce Mowbray just put "Contagion" on his Netflix queue.
Korel Laloix: I saw that.. some of it was silly, but some was great.
Wol Euler nods. I liked it

Eos Amaterasu: What are the elements of competition in how we play Play as Being here?

Aphrodite Macbain: Yes the drug companies are the ones that drive the competition-not the scientists. The scientists are more interested in truth and doing things well and carefully. The drug companies are interested in profits and doing things quickly
Bruce Mowbray: depends on the level of our immersion, I suppose.
Aphrodite Macbain: whew
Zen Arado: what's the difference between working with great passion and competing?
Eos Amaterasu listens
Bruce Mowbray: GOOD question!
Wol Euler: I think it's possible to do both
Korel Laloix: They are different.
Korel Laloix: But can overlap.
Aphrodite Macbain: passion comes from within
Korel Laloix: Competition comes from within as well.
Aphrodite Macbain: competition is prompted from without
Aphrodite Macbain: by others
Korel Laloix: Promted, yes... but originates inside.
Zen Arado: one is looking and comparing with others

Eos Amaterasu: korel vs aphrodite :-)

Korel Laloix smiles
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Zen Arado: who did Einstein compete with?
Aphrodite Macbain: Capitalism vs socialism
Eos Amaterasu: the universe
Wol Euler grins.
Aphrodite Macbain: himself
Bruce Mowbray: Einstein competed with God.
Aphrodite Macbain: both?
Korel Laloix: Tulio Levi-Chivita.
Zen Arado: he threw dice?
Zen Arado: :)
Korel Laloix: But that was just about the math part.
Bruce Mowbray: No, he refused to throw dice....
Zen Arado: ah yes God doesn't throw dice
Aphrodite Macbain: He didn't want to compete!!
Eos Amaterasu: God had a few adjacent possibles up his sleeve
Bruce Mowbray: Or, at least he said that God refused to throw dice.
Aphrodite Macbain: He knows it's silly!
Aphrodite Macbain: Che sera sera
Bruce Mowbray: He didn't need to compete. He had transcended that.
Aphrodite Macbain: right
Aphrodite Macbain: on
 

Best

Eos Amaterasu: the downside of competition is the absolute ego it can engender from relative betterness
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Eos Amaterasu: at its best, it's a way to meet the best in yourself, and in others
Zen Arado: ever get accused as competing with someone when just doing your best?
Eos Amaterasu: but then there's competition where you feel you have to cheat
Aphrodite Macbain: yes. How stupid is that?
Korel Laloix: Like anything in human behaviour... overdoing something is maladaptive.
Zen Arado: they put you in a competition frame
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Eos, that's the identity problem-challenge. How can I have an identity without having to separate myself from others in competitive frameworks?
Korel Laloix: That includes competition.
Aphrodite Macbain: social pressures, parental pressures, job pressures = sick making
Eos Amaterasu: there's big bucks, and big ego, involved
Eos Amaterasu: POO - "Power Over Others"
Korel Laloix: Yes.. but there are huge bucks and egos in the lack of competition as well.
Bruce Mowbray: But if you really know who you are....?
Korel Laloix: Look at reservations... vast pools of our people with nothing to get out of their chairs for.
Aphrodite Macbain: Friendly competition...
Zen Arado: a way to build your own ego...beat someone else at something
Wol Euler nods to Korel
Korel Laloix: Huge egos and budgets to rule.
Aphrodite Macbain: I don’t think it's that black and white Kori
Korel Laloix: I agree.
Bruce Mowbray: Kori makes an excellent point.
Korel Laloix: But in general, we are better competing as a society.. vs sitting around waiting for something to be passionate about.
Eos Amaterasu: ?
Eos Amaterasu: can u say more?
Zen Arado: not better being driven by our own interests?
Wol Euler: ((bertram in 3 minutes))
Korel Laloix: That is what being competitive is.
Korel Laloix: But the key point is balance again.

Aphrodite Macbain: Well - what I think is that you're all right!
Aphrodite Macbain: Thank you for your wisdom and insights
Zen Arado: no...you won Aph :)
Korel Laloix smiles
Eos Amaterasu: aphrodite calming the pool waters
Bruce Mowbray: YAYYYY!
Bruce Mowbray: Aph is the winner!
Aphrodite Macbain: nooooooooooo
Zen Arado: we give in
Zen Arado: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: noooooooooo
Aphrodite Macbain: Gotta go to a ball in Versailles now
Zen Arado: till next time ;)
Korel Laloix: I never signed up for competitive PaBing.
Eos Amaterasu: Ciao belissimi
Aphrodite Macbain: bye
Wol Euler: I'm off to meditate, take care, be happy
Korel Laloix: ciao
Aphrodite Macbain: Ciao Eos
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks, everyone!
Zen Arado: byee
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Kori - you were excellent!