2012.11.05 13:00 - Theme session: Boxy's Art of Being piece

Wol Euler was guardian for this theme session, a discussion between Alfred Kelberry (Boxy) and Pema of the former's Art of Being project.

Bruce Mowbray: There is SO MUCH discord in this country about the election . . . . it's hard to bear any more of that.
Wol Euler: agreed
Bruce Mowbray: I'm really afraid that wounds are being created that will not soon be healed.
Wol Euler: agreed
Wol Euler: there is an amazing amount and intensity of polarization
Bruce Mowbray: indeed.
Wol Euler: the right thinks the left is pure evil, and the left thinks the right is pure idiocy
Bruce Mowbray: I am really afraid for the man if he gets re-elected.
Wol Euler: yes, that is true
Bruce Mowbray: But I will vote for him none-the-less.
Wol Euler: I fear veyr much that some piece of shit will try to kill him
Bruce Mowbray: Yes. Indeed, so,.
Bruce Mowbray: I saw JFK only 15 minutes before he was shot.
Bruce Mowbray: I never want to go through that again.
Wol Euler: wow
Bruce Mowbray: I was at Gate 24 at Love Field in Dallas.
Bruce Mowbray: By the time I'd returned to SMU, it was all over.
Bruce Mowbray: and it was a landmark -- a water-shed- in my life.
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: hello qt
Qt Core: hi all
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Qt!
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome back, Kori!
Wol Euler: hello korel, eliza
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Eliza!
Bruce Mowbray: Yayyy! Here comes Bleu!
Qt Core: Hi Korel, ELiza
Qt Core: and hi Blue too
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome. Xir!
Xirana Oximoxi: hello everyone:)
Wol Euler: hello xir, pila
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Bruce, Wol, Korel, Qt, Xiri, Pila, Bleu
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Bleu -- and THANKS for all you Deu!
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Bruce Mowbray: We3lcome, Pila!
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Bleu! :)
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Pema!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema
Wol Euler: hello pema
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Pema
Bleu Oleander: hi Pema :)
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Raffi!
Pila Mulligan: hi Raffi and Pema
Raffila Millgrove: Greetings all
Pema Pera: hi everybody!
Qt Core: Hi pema, raffi

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: hi Raffi
Bleu Oleander: hi Qt
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Raffi
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sunshine
Bleu Oleander: hi Sun :)
szavanna Resident: hi Liz °͜° hi all :)
szavanna Resident: hi Pema :)
Wol Euler: hello raffi, sun
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Sun!
szavanna Resident: Woly :)
szavanna Resident: ty Bruce
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Sun, Raffi, Pila.....
szavanna Resident: hi Pila long time no see :)
Wol Euler: hello storm
szavanna Resident: hi Stormy :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Storm!
Bleu Oleander: hi Storm :)
Xirana Oximoxi: :))
Storm Nordwind: Hello everyone
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Storm
Pema Pera: nice to see so many of us here together :)

A lengthy pause.

Wol Euler: this is like a surprise party before the guest of honour arrives
Pila Mulligan: :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Storm Nordwind: Shall we hide? ;)
Wol Euler grins.
Xirana Oximoxi: :))
Wol Euler: well, as long as we are all-except-one here ...
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Wol Euler: just a sec
Pema Pera: hi Alfred!
Alfred Kelberry: hi :)
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Boxy!
Wol Euler: I'm glad you came, boxy
Storm Nordwind waves
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Boxy! :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Boxy :)
szavanna Resident: hi Boxy :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Boxy
Bruce Mowbray: Soooo glad that you came, Boxy.
Xirana Oximoxi: me too:)
Bleu Oleander: me three :)
Pema Pera: yes, looking forward to chat
Bruce Mowbray: YUKKKKK!
Pila Mulligan: anyone mind if I start ... ?
Bruce Mowbray: please do, Pila.
Pila Mulligan: Boxy's attempt at paraody happened to be displayed while Pema was hunkered down under a serious RL storm. Boxy expected Pema would find the display amusing, but Boxy failed to anticipate how things like RL weather can affect someone's usual amiability.
Alfred Kelberry: i knew if i didn't come, it would be used in public shame of my person, so here i am
Alfred Kelberry: i will, however, stay an observer, and let you all voice your opinions
Alfred Kelberry: agreed
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray sits on hands and listens.
Bleu Oleander: perhaps Boxy and Pema could discuss Boxy's art piece and then open for comments after?
Pema Pera: Alfred, I'm more than happy to talk, in whatever format you like. I have no hard feelings, and in fact, I'm glad to see all the energy and interest that has been generated
Bruce Mowbray hopes that Wol's suggestion of first half-hour going to Pema and Boxy will be honored.
Alfred Kelberry: pila, i understand your wish to rationalize this, as many issues get this treatment at pab, but i think it is a self-deceiving attitude.
Wol Euler: yes, I would suggest that we all just listen for the first half hour, no comments or questions
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xs :)
Bruce Mowbray agrees to that.
Pema Pera: I'm game, Alfred
Xs Andree: me waves waves
Pema Pera: hi Xs!
szavanna Resident: hi Xs :)
Xs Andree: ao off
Xs Andree: Hello everyone, Good to see you all today.
Pema Pera: Alfred, would you like to start?

--BELL--

Alfred Kelberry: pema: you requested this meeting, so go on
Pema Pera: Throughout the history of PaB, we have had situations where there were conflict situations, as occur in any organization, and we've always found ways to deal with those
Alfred Kelberry: woly, i'd like to note that i welcome comments at any time
Wol Euler: okay
Pema Pera: and our approach has been mainly to listen to each other
Alfred Kelberry: oh, you really do start from square one :)
Pema Pera: asking "can you say more?" whenever we were surprised, and disagreed with one another
Alfred Kelberry: for my comment on this, please refer to the last email
Pema Pera: since most of the time disagreement is disagreement with wording more than actual content
Pema Pera: and listening to each other, we have often found more communality
Pema Pera: I certainly have had that experience talking with you, on various occasions
Pema Pera: including your last emails
Pema Pera: and I can understand more than I did two days ago what was on your mind
Pema Pera: and I look forward to clarifying our intentions further
Pema Pera: I am sorry that you were shocked by my initial reaction, but it was an honest reaction
Pema Pera: denying or hiding or ignoring emotional reactions is not something I like to do
Pema Pera: but having voiced my reactions, I don't want to stick to them
Pema Pera: so I'm happy to start from scratch, to talk about whatever issue you like, about PaB or about you and me or anything else.
Pema Pera: Your turn. :)
Alfred Kelberry: i do not want to start from scratch, burring issues under the carpet
Pema Pera: start wherever you like, Alfred
Alfred Kelberry: ok, one question is what did you find offending in my art piece?
Gilles Kuhn: offending ??? it is hillarious
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gilles, we're letting Pema and Boxy dialog before opening up for other comments
Alfred Kelberry: it is fine to comment
Pema Pera: two things: to put my head on a religious statue, and to put words in my mouth like "no critique of PaB is relevant. They are wrong, for I am right", especially the latter, after I had tried to answer any and all of your criticisms for two months
Gilles Kuhn: boxy just told me otherwise but eliza but i would accept the method if it is clear
Eliza Madrigal: that's what we agreed upon before you were here Gilles, if you would that would be great... for a short while only
Alfred Kelberry: pema, you said you do not see yourself as a guru - is it related to the statue and the head?
Pema Pera: indeed, I do not see myself as a guru. As for using religious symbols to make fun of, two things: I support freedom of speech, very much so, but I also reserve the right to *feel* offended at some things, even though I defend the right to say them -- I'm not a robot

--BELL--

Alfred Kelberry: i have a question for the audience. have you noted any parallels to rl in the exhibit?
Pema Pera: and feeling offended is okay, I can get over it, as I did in the mean time, and here I am to talk about it. The fact that this has lead to conversations is very positive, and I thank you for that. You have done more to get us to talk about the essence of PaB than anyone else lately.
Alfred Kelberry: pema, offense is an expected byproduct when you introduce a differing opinion. it if perfectly fine.
Pema Pera: yes
Xirana Oximoxi: boxy... I don't understand exactly the question :)
Pema Pera: but expressing feeling offended is also perfectly find, don't you agree?
Pema Pera: or not?
Alfred Kelberry: pema: it's how one deals with offense is another matter. the way you demonized me and compared my exhibit to "shit in a living room" is a little peculiar.
Alfred Kelberry: xir, it's about my exhibit - that green box in the dome :)
Pema Pera: putting an avatar face on a Buddha statue for me is similar to shit in a living room
Gilles Kuhn: i dont see where humour about a methodology can be offensive, to fell offended is typical of religious people who consider their opinions and stance as sacred and so not criticable
Alfred Kelberry: pema: ok, got that
Pila Mulligan: I think some of the audience may have not agreed with the intended RL parallels
Pema Pera: and yes, I am willing to step over that, so here we are :-)
Xirana Oximoxi: yes!! I know:) I don't understand in what sense you ask us to see it related to rl..having parallels with rl.... I usually don't separate too much both, sl and sl, feelings and people:)
Gilles Kuhn: piet i am sorry but i fohund that hillarious and indeed almost shit myself of laughter i would have love the participant to my seminar in sl to have made me the honour of such a satiric display on myself
Alfred Kelberry: in retrospect it was a bold question to ask the audience about similarities between the exhibit and rl, without facing consequences. sorry.
Xs Andree: you take offense all the time, Giles.
Pema Pera: I must admit I did not understand your question either, Alfred
Raffila Millgrove: i don't know what you were looking for boxy about rl. i felt it was a 2nd life exhibit. only.
Alfred Kelberry: xir, i think you answered my question then :)
Xirana Oximoxi: ok:) great:)
Alfred Kelberry: ah... maybe i worded it wrong. i meant to pab in sl.
Wol Euler: I think Boxy means, did we agree with his statement that pema never answers questions
Alfred Kelberry: sorry :)
Gilles Kuhn: do i Xs really ? thats amusing your capacity to judge people
Alfred Kelberry: woly, incorrect
Xs Andree: I don't need to. you said it openly that i had offended you.
Wol Euler: please correct me, then
Xs Andree: I take you at your word, and accept that what i said had offended you many times.
Bleu Oleander: to me, your art piece was a visual representation of what you've been saying all along, Boxy, that you characterize Pema as a Guru and you think PaB isn't scientific ...
Wol Euler: xs, gilles, this is not about the two of you.
Raffila Millgrove: yes that is also how i took it. agree with Bleu.
Bruce Mowbray wishes we could bring this back to Pema and Boxy.
Raffila Millgrove: was that your.. intent.. what you wanted to communicate?
Gilles Kuhn: oh yes in a converstion you did because you were making experiment on me and didnt take our converstion seriously because you were convinced of your superiority as much that you refused argumentations xs but that not the subject today i think
Xs Andree: i was remarking on his comment to Pema about comparing her to religious people who take offense easily
Xs Andree: I accept that is how you felt. That is not what i did, nor did i set out to do it. i wanted to understand why we conflict so much, and in looking for an answer, i found one.
Xs Andree: I am sorry you were offended. i was looking for a way to agree with you, rather than continually fight.
Gilles Kuhn: in one word xs as most people here you confound people with arguments
Wol Euler: excuse me, can we get back to Pema and Boxy please?
Xs Andree: We are.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Gilles Kuhn: and i dont look to agree i look to have more information and insight
Bruce Mowbray: back to Pema and Boxy.
Raffila Millgrove: i am hoping boxy will tell us.. if Bleu's explanation matches up with boxy's intent.
Bruce Mowbray once again sits on hands and listens.
Xs Andree: Fuck intent. you people are all way too worried about what each other intended to even accept what each other says about intent.
Raffila Millgrove: OMG this is just painful.
Xirana Oximoxi: I also have seen the work of boxy as a representation of what he has also expressed in words a lot of times lately
Raffila Millgrove: lol
Bruce Mowbray: hang in there, Raffi.
Storm Nordwind: If Bleu's impression (and Raffi's) was correct, then I think it shows us more about the creator of the artwork than the subject of the artwork. This is true, of course, of many attempts at satire, so it's not special in this case.
Alfred Kelberry: bleu, right. my question was if anyone has noted such parallels - if you see any truth in it. for instance, i think that it's not a big exaggeration for an art piece to present pema as a guru. given his role as a founder and the author of the PaB idea, etc. i'm sure he was called this a number of times on our sessions.
Raffila Millgrove: i like that Storm. i wonder if pema and boxy are good with it.
Bleu Oleander: I never thought the piece was about Pema ... I thought it was about how Boxy sees PaB
Raffila Millgrove: oh ok. i see truth in it boxy. but exgerated.
Eliza Madrigal: for me it was intellectual clever but personally offensive and frankly tiring, because for months and months I've been hearing a song that plays in loops but goes nowhere, which I don't agree with and I think squeezes many of us out of the conversation - as though PaB has to conform to Boxy's expectations only
Gilles Kuhn: storm i am sorry but a satyre is always positive or do you think you need to sacralise what piet pab and we are doing
Raffila Millgrove: over the top.
Raffila Millgrove: that's where i thought the humor was.. pushing it over the top.
Eliza Madrigal: so this brought me to uncensor myself a bit
Wol Euler nods to eliza
Storm Nordwind: Not where I was brought up Gilles! :)
Raffila Millgrove: pema's point tho that ... defacing a buddha statue.. is upsetting to him.. one can see that also.
Gilles Kuhn: but good heavens i really dont understand is all the at fuss about this very amusing pleasant joke ? are you all become as serious that you need to not accept fun?
Bruce Mowbray ponders whether the 'creation' is not always about the 'creator.'

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray is grateful for this 90=sec drop/.
Raffila Millgrove: yes Gilles the group wishes to be this serious. i already addresed that in an mail and they say. yes we must have much Talking on it.
Bleu Oleander: the theme of the Art of Being project was PaB as a Lab ... Boxy's piece tells me that he doesn't think PaB is a Lab
Wol Euler practices Metta
Bruce Mowbray drops.
Gilles Kuhn: defacing ab uddha statue LOL it remember me about the question if you can meditate about buddha when shitting response is obviously yes
Xs Andree: i didn't mean to offend you. I did not take everything you say personally because most of it was a personal attack on me. Gilles, you are a troll. you want to get a reaction. Here we are. This was your contribution, now two friends are fighting.
Xs Andree: It is too bad that Boxy can't have more than you as a freind.
Bleu Oleander: striking parallels between this and a 1999 Brooklyn Museum show albeit on a much smaller scale
Xs Andree: I have an election to vote in. Goodnight
Bleu Oleander: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/enter.../art_10-8.html
Bleu Oleander: for later
Storm Nordwind: Well Bruce, I think the most successful and most durable art encourages us to see many things in new lights. It can be very effective on many levels, and the creator of the piece is very often quickly lost.
Xirana Oximoxi: oppps.... boxy has a lot more people loving him:)
Gilles Kuhn: xs thats was ad hominem and so ridiculous
Alfred Kelberry: ok, another question. pema, do you accept this opinion of mine of pab laboratory as valid?
Eliza Madrigal: yes many of us if not all have a lot of affection for boxy personally
Pema Pera: which part of it, Alfred?
Alfred Kelberry: the exhibit itself. do you think this opinion has the right to exist and be shared?
Pema Pera: well, your opinion that you put words in my mouth like " no critique of PaB is relevant. They are wrong, for I am right" has the right to exist, yes, even though it hurts to hear you saying that, after I have been trying to respond to you for a few months now -- I wonder where I failed. Can you tell me where I failed to address your questions?
Gilles Kuhn: pema you didnt fail it is a satyre its humoristic and the normal reaction of one even in rl prelate i know is to laugh
Gilles Kuhn: may i remember you the methods of Erasmus and Rabelais?
Gilles Kuhn: the first thing anyone need to do to make philosophy is to remeber socratic irony
Gilles Kuhn: and that include aristophane satyre on him
Wol Euler: thanks for the advice, gilles. Please let them speak
Bruce Mowbray seconds Wol's suggestion.
Gilles Kuhn: i let everybody speak that is chat bloody hell
Alfred Kelberry: pema: a note again that it is an art piece with implied liberties. you don't take the line and treat it as a quote from a professional publication. as for this particular quote, it is derived from your tendency to ignore, avoid, or otherwise dismiss opposing views.
Pema Pera: Have I avoided answering you, Alfred?
Alfred Kelberry: you do not ask me about the pema chodron quote, which i hope you did accept as a joke
Pema Pera: Have I ignored you?
Alfred Kelberry: yes
Pema Pera: how so?
Wol Euler: O.O
Alfred Kelberry: may not me in particular, but points in a conversation
Pema Pera: which points?
Pema Pera: I thought I have responded to each point you've ever raised
Pema Pera: if you don't agree with my answer, it doesn't mean I ignored you
Alfred Kelberry: one last such episode was when i inquired about criticism of pheno and it took me several attempts, which then became too vocal to ignore and you did answer in the email.

--BELL--

Alfred Kelberry: btw, the new york metaphor that you presented there, in my view, does correlate with the aforementioned quote in the exhibit
Gilles Kuhn: Pema i am sorry but you have not responded to any of mine critics on phenomenology since 4 years : your responses was your pheno seminar from which you expelled me after inviting me to it ; my fundamental criticism is that phenology has never give ANY result and has completely failed in the Husserl objective to be a methodology that can resolve empirical science limitation. I told you 4 years ago very well show me some result from your "explorations" or "experiments" or whatever you call them : i am still waiting
Pila Mulligan: Alfred, what are you expecting to accomplish?
Alfred Kelberry: pila, where?
Pila Mulligan: here, now
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Alfred Kelberry: i don't know. pema invited me and here i came.
Pila Mulligan: well, before then?
Alfred Kelberry: can you be more specific?
Pila Mulligan: yes, if you succeed with your art, what will you accomplish?
Alfred Kelberry: how do you quantify success of an art?
Pila Mulligan: I am asking you more or less the same quseiotn, but specifically
Wol Euler: do you realize you are doing exactly what you accuse pema of doing, boxy?
Gilles Kuhn: but is that an inquisition tribunal is what is to follow some burning of offensive art?
Xirana Oximoxi: as an artist you have succeded...everybody speaks about your piece :)
Alfred Kelberry: my intention was to express my opinion in a visual form. let it be seen by others and take into account.
Storm Nordwind slips away quietly and leaves people to accomplish whatever they wish to accomplish. ;-)
Wol Euler: bye storm, take care
Xirana Oximoxi: bye Storm! :)
szavanna Resident: take care Storm
Alfred Kelberry: woly, do you realize you keep playing the pab police role here?
Wol Euler: yes, I do
Wol Euler: and you've done it again :)
Bleu Oleander: what would be a good resolution to this?
Alfred Kelberry: ok, carry on then
Alfred Kelberry: right, i think it's time to slip, indeed
Wol Euler: wait
Alfred Kelberry: be well
Wol Euler: answering a question with a question is VALID
Wol Euler: it is OK
Pema Pera: As for me, I don't need a resolution, I'm fine with whatever has happened
Wol Euler: that is what I wanted to say
Pema Pera: and I'm happy to continue our conversations
Alfred Kelberry: pema, same here
Pema Pera shakes hand with the mighty pirate
Wol Euler sighs.
Raffila Millgrove wipes a tear from her eye with a dainty hanky.
Bleu Oleander: great so in many ways the art piece was successful in starting the conversation?
Xirana Oximoxi: ok.... then thanks you for the discussion :)
Pema Pera: :-) yes
Wol Euler: I'm sorry, I failed to keep my mouth shut
Raffila Millgrove: Bye all
Bleu Oleander: bye Raffi
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Raffi:)
Pema Pera: well, onto the next Art as Being exhibit?
Xirana Oximoxi: I also go now.... take care all and see you soon! :)
Pema Pera: and meanwhile, onto future PaB sessions
Bleu Oleander: :)
Wol Euler: bye xir, take care
szavanna Resident: byebyee Xiri
Pema Pera: let me thank Bleu especially
Bleu Oleander: bye Xiri :)
Pema Pera: for the years of AaB work!
Bleu Oleander: no need to :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, thank you Bleu
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bey...and yes! thanks to Bleu too:)
Pema Pera: and I hope you're not discouraged by this little episode
szavanna Resident: 
szavanna Resident: Bleu ♥
Wol Euler applauds!
Bleu Oleander: thanks to all who participate
Bleu Oleander: not at all Pema :)
Pema Pera: AaB fot more press than ever before, it seems :)
Bleu Oleander: yes :)
Bleu Oleander: its a great way of knowing and exploring
Pema Pera: yes, beyond the dimensions of just text
Pila Mulligan: did you come through the storm okay, Pema?
Pema Pera: oh yes, thanks for asking
Pila Mulligan: it was a mean one
Pema Pera: luckily the lights stayed on in my part of Manhattan
Pila Mulligan: yes
szavanna Resident: ah really
szavanna Resident: °͜°
Bleu Oleander: my brother in NJ is still without electric and water :(
Pema Pera: yes, many still are
Bleu Oleander: big challenge with all that are homeless
Pema Pera: yes
Wol Euler nods.
Pema Pera: it was interesting that the would-be marathon runners where helping the homeless
Pema Pera: running for them :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Pema Pera: a piece of art, no? :-)
Alfred Kelberry: woly: oh, before i go. what do you try to accomplish here? :)

--BELL--

Qt Core: (yes, i've read about some would be runners from around here deciding to stay and help)
Bleu Oleander: many are there from Arizona helping
Gilles Kuhn: an extremely interesting disaster of rich people do you know that there were more death in Haiti from the same storm?
Wol Euler: I was trying to make a space where the two of you could talk about this without interruption, because I think it is important for you, and for us too
Qt Core: (or just from a single attack in syria gilles)
Wol Euler: my worry was that if everyone chipped in, then you would be drowned out
Gilles Kuhn: Qt dont make me speak of congo.....
Wol Euler: tempers are so high, see what happened between xs and gilles
Wol Euler: I wanted to keep it to you two, to keep it calm
Pema Pera: I'll have to go to a talk -- great seeing you all here!
Qt Core: it's just that NY is "nearer" to us (here we see more about high water in Venice (no death) than ny
Bleu Oleander: bye Pema :)
Eliza Madrigal: thank you Pema
Wol Euler: bye pema, take care
Gilles Kuhn: you mean see what Xs throwed at me wol it was not the time for her to bring our personal divergence
Wol Euler: thanks for coming
Pila Mulligan: bye
Qt Core: bye Pema
szavanna Resident: take care Pema
Alfred Kelberry: oh, and i thought you were coming to my session to seek out inconsistencies and reveal them in chat to further demonization of my person
Wol Euler: NO
Pema Pera: thank you all, and thank you for coming here, Alfred, that means a lot to me
Wol Euler: not at all, boxy
Alfred Kelberry: pema, welcome
Pema Pera: c u
Eliza Madrigal: such nonsense boxy... does everyone have to agree with you for it to be okay?
Wol Euler: I was making a point that was perhaps silly, and I'm sorry I didn't keep quiet
Bleu Oleander: bye for now everyone ... take care :)
Wol Euler: you complain that pema answers questions with questions
Gilles Kuhn: eliza try this argument with all the rest of people here you first then pema second
Qt Core: bye Bleu
szavanna Resident: take care Bleu
Wol Euler: but you did the same
Wol Euler: because it is VALID
Wol Euler: it is OK
Eliza Madrigal: demonization is crying wolf
Pila Mulligan: Alfred wanted to express his opinions, and he did. The contentions are over agreement with those opinions, not over Alfred as morally good or bad.
Wol Euler: sometimes the question wasn't clear, or wasn't relevant
Wol Euler: as you did with pila
Wol Euler: that is NOT demonizing
Eliza Madrigal: just tired...
Eliza Madrigal: bye everyone
Gilles Kuhn: hell i think Boxy is right and its argument is
Wol Euler: thanks for your input, gilles
Qt Core: bye Eliza
Gilles Kuhn: i dont care if boxy is good bad black white or venusian i speak about his argumentation
Alfred Kelberry: woly, i did not say "pema answers questions with questions". you filling in the gaps.
Gilles Kuhn: i dont need your disdainfull thankfulness wol
Wol Euler: I'm sorry, boxy, I must have misunderstood.
Alfred Kelberry: woly: i believe this is not the case. you seek to discredit me at any chance given.
Gilles Kuhn: what is that joke ? somebody offended the sacralisation of one you made your guru ?
Alfred Kelberry: as you defend the pab values
Alfred Kelberry: hence your self appointed pab police role
Wol Euler: one of the pab values is respectful attention
Gilles Kuhn: bullshit wol what you call respectfull attention is in fact censorship
Wol Euler: that differentiates us from many philosophy groups, where ridicule is expected
Alfred Kelberry: woly, which is only remembered when it suits someone
Wol Euler: thanks for your input, gilles
Gilles Kuhn: my input as you disrespectfully say is not an input is to say you are a fanatic without any kind of critical mind
szavanna Resident: byebyeee all hope things will get more clear with time see u all soon
Wol Euler: bye sun, take care
Qt Core: bye Sun
Pila Mulligan: yes, bye Sun, et alia
Wol Euler: bye pila
szavanna Resident: byebyeee
Gilles Kuhn: i never come to pab since 4 years for those very reasons alfred has underlined again
Gilles Kuhn: i have come to his invite has i know he is somebody honest and critical in his intellectual endeavour
Gilles Kuhn: but i am appaled to see the witch hunt that you have done
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Gilles Kuhn: typical hypocrisy of people who pretend to be nice with everybody which entail in fact to accept a single faith and indeed a guru even if he is not wanting to be one
Gilles Kuhn: people who have no more humour and dont take things lightly and sacralize their activities are at best religious fanatics at worst become fichtean (which in lay men word mean fascist nazis...)
Wol Euler makes a note.
Gilles Kuhn: eat your bloody note and choke with it i am fed up with that
Gilles Kuhn: i am off goodbye
Wol Euler: you're right, that was unnecessary. I'm sorry.
Alfred Kelberry: woly: re demonization. your predisposition to pab loyalty somehow fills in the gaps where it's not and skipping over there it is. if you read pema's emails in the recent thread, it is evident.
Mickorod Renard: bye Gilles,,,take care
Wol Euler: what do his emails have to do with me?
Wol Euler: I don't remember writing about this in the e-mail group
Alfred Kelberry: so you have not read them?

--BELL--

Wol Euler: yes, I did. And are you now putting his words into my mouth?
Alfred Kelberry: no, you said it never happenend
Mickorod Renard: I have been away and not seen the work of art in question...I just went to take a peek,,if I didnt know it was contraversial i wouldnt have known
Wol Euler: boxy, you accused ME of demonizing you. I said that *I* did not do that
Wol Euler: sorry if I misunderstood
Alfred Kelberry: anyhow... as eliza noted, it is tiring.
Wol Euler: and very sad, yes
Wol Euler: I'm sorry this has happened, boxy, really.
Alfred Kelberry: never expected such a blown up drama out of it
Wol Euler: agreed
Wol Euler: which is why I kept out of the e-mail conversation
Alfred Kelberry: and thank you for that :)
Wol Euler: I hope you mean that sincerely?
Xs Andree: i'm sorry, Boxy.
Wol Euler: and I really hate that I have to ask :(
Wol Euler: it hurts
Mickorod Renard: I am sure all will be well
Alfred Kelberry: woly, i do, in fact. otherwise, it would escalate even more, given your weight in the group.
Wol Euler: I wanted everyone else to be quiet because of the intense emotion all around
Wol Euler: imagine if [redacted in the interests of harmony]!
Wol Euler: they would have drowned you two out
Xs Andree: Why is there so much arguing here?
Wol Euler: usually there isn't, xs, that is the sad thing
Mickorod Renard: and I would have just said something stupid anyway,,cos thats what I usually do
Xs Andree: It has been going on for months here.
Xs Andree: Before i got here.
Xs Andree: Why is there an argument about whether PaB is science? Or about who intended what?
Mickorod Renard: it is interesting,,because for most of its life PaB has been more about agreeing
Alfred Kelberry: woly: i do, however, wish for people to acknowledge in what hugely disadvantageous position i am in a discourse with pema. he's got the glory and status of the founder, while i am seen as an insignificant annoyance.
Wol Euler: not insignificant, no, boxy. people do take you seriuosly
Mickorod Renard: I wouldnt say you are seen as an insignif annoyance
Alfred Kelberry: and when he emphasizes this fact, i think it is just not right
Wol Euler: the fact that they all came _ and stayed quiet!! _ proves that
Wol Euler: when did you ever hear all of us being quiet, before? :)
Alfred Kelberry: well, thank you for that :)
Wol Euler: they (we) took it and you very serioulsly
Alfred Kelberry: well, it was because pema was here :)
Wol Euler: mmm, no. There have been theme sessions where people talked over him and the other person
Wol Euler: admittedly I wasn#t being policeman then :-P
Eleonor Quixote: taking thing seriously? *laugh* somebody life is threatened?
Wol Euler: hello eleonor, have you been here before?
Alfred Kelberry: ele, oh yes. big drama :)
Alfred Kelberry: want to chip in? :)
Eleonor Quixote: Wol why? are you the guardian ?
Wol Euler: yes, I am, I took the session
Mickorod Renard: the interesting thing re the pab that is agreeing is that it just does a loop,,and that perhaps is not perfect...
Wol Euler: and it's a fairly neutral and normal way to open a conversation
Wol Euler: but mostly because if you *haven't* been here before, I'll give you a notecard with some information about the group
Eleonor Quixote: ^^ it was not an attack Wol
Wol Euler: I know :)
Alfred Kelberry: mick, i really wish for differing views to be welcomed at pab. maybe not accepted, but let be.
Alfred Kelberry: ever since i first questioned pema's methods, i became an outcast
Qt Core: after all we are only human ;-)
Alfred Kelberry: which was the first surprise for me, given that openness, tolerance, etc are the pab virtues
Eleonor Quixote: i thought that astrophysicain were semi gods? i am wrong?
Mickorod Renard: I doubt that Alf,,in what I have read,,and I havnt read all..I would say you have been a catalyst for stimulation
Alfred Kelberry: mick, i'll go with this description :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Qt Core: you'll be burned and pardoned in a few centuries
Wol Euler chuckles.
Xs Andree: how could you not expect to be pushed to the fringe when you questioned the accepted method, boxy?
Alfred Kelberry: but yes, you're right. not all seen this as a threat. bleu for that matter. she did support my initiative. a few people praised my art piece :)

--BELL--

Xs Andree: That is the burden of going against the grain, of challenging what people think
Xs Andree: It is also the source of the power of a dissident, as well.
Mickorod Renard: I just went to look at the art Alf,,cos I have been away
Eleonor Quixote: amusing if there is a dissident that mean that there is an accepted and non criticable dogma: is that so here?
Mickorod Renard: and I found it quite interesting,,in a complex way and yet also attractive to look at it more
Xs Andree: Certainly it is criticizable. Boxy is still here.
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: you should ask Rhiannon of the Birds about tolerance and philosophy groups :)
Xs Andree: Why are we so concerned about each other's motives and intentions?
Mickorod Renard: I couldnt see what I was expecting to find,,but maybe my graphics are not good enough
Eleonor Quixote: rhi is a good friend
Alfred Kelberry: xs, because it is pab. from the beginning it was a big experiment. it has deep roots in zen buddhism and cultivates as i said openness and balanced approach.
Xs Andree: so wrapped up on each other plans, so intent on winning.
Wol Euler: perhaps we talk about intention because there is a difference between a deliberate poke in the eye, and a tap on the shoulder that missed?
Alfred Kelberry: mick, thank you :)
Qt Core: and in the remote case it'll iscover itself not so open it'll hurt even more
Xs Andree: Pema said she didn't mean her reacton to you
Xs Andree: and she poked you back
Xs Andree: ...
Xs Andree: what is wrong?
Alfred Kelberry: *note: pema is he :)
Xs Andree: pema
Xs Andree: I disagree
Xs Andree: I've always seen Pema as female.
Wol Euler smiles.
Alfred Kelberry: well, this pema is a male :)
Eleonor Quixote: Piet a female very funny indeed......
Xs Andree: I disagree
Xs Andree: does it matter?
Xs Andree: i see something you don't, you see something i don't.
Mickorod Renard: don't involve me in sexist matters
Xs Andree: is it because you are wrong, or I?
Eleonor Quixote: well Xs it matter if you want to live in the same world as us
Xs Andree: Who says i do?
Eleonor Quixote: well autism is a condition that is difficult to cure
Xs Andree: I'm not autistic
Xs Andree: I don't have to be to live in a different world than you, or to have a different view.
Eleonor Quixote: well you just told us you didnt take in account the intersubjective world but only yours and thats is typical of autism
Xs Andree: No you said that of me.
Mickorod Renard: ok, I am off to bed..c ya
Xs Andree: I did not say that of myself.
Wol Euler: bye mick, sleep well
Qt Core: bye Mick
Eleonor Quixote: Eleonor Quixote: Piet a female very funny indeed...... [14:49] Xs Andree: I disagree [14:49] Xs Andree: does it matter? [14:50] Xs Andree: i see something you don't, you see something i don't.
Xs Andree: I would never say anything like that, i'm not you, I don't live in your world. I live in mine, just as you don't live in my world.
Eleonor Quixote: well so you say that....
Eleonor Quixote: exactly typical btw
Xs Andree: of?
Eleonor Quixote: autism
Xs Andree: Have you lived my life?
Xs Andree: learned what i've learned?
Xs Andree: Or I you?
Xs Andree: We are not from the same world.
Eleonor Quixote: i certainly hope not
Xs Andree: Are you upset with me?
Eleonor Quixote: no why?
Qt Core: time to sleep, bye all and have fun
Alfred Kelberry: ok, folks. i'll be off now. did you claim the log, woly?
Xs Andree: your comments seem aimed at attacking me as a person, to repaint who i am in a different light in order to make what i say seem unimportant.
Xs Andree: Am I wrong?
Wol Euler: yes, I did
Wol Euler: no worries, I knew you'd be busy
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: take care, boxy
Alfred Kelberry: ok, thanks
Alfred Kelberry: be well
Wol Euler: you too
Wol Euler: and do come back.
Alfred Kelberry: xs/ele, be good :)
Xs Andree: bye Boxy, take care.
Eleonor Quixote: bye blue beard ;-)
Wol Euler: eleonor, have you been here before, and have you had the intro?
Wol Euler: because we record and publish these sessions on our website, http://wiki.playasbeing.org/
Wol Euler: may we have your permission to include your SL name and your comments in the published log?
Eleonor Quixote: yes i have nothing to hide
Wol Euler: thank you
Wol Euler: it's midnight, and I have to be at work early tomorrow
Wol Euler: goodnight, take care, be happy and non-violent
Wol Euler smiles.

--BELL--

Xs Andree: Why is it that when people disagree, they'd rather attack each other personally, and their dignity, rather than accept one another?
Eleonor Quixote: you felt attacked how curious i just described your stance you maintained a guy was a girl which is not the case so i confronted your stance
Xs Andree: perhaps you should read up again.
Eleonor Quixote: you too
Xs Andree: I did, a few times.
Eleonor Quixote: i dont need to re read something i just did
Xs Andree: i did it anyway.
Eleonor Quixote: well have a good evening anyway it seems this is over
Xs Andree: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKXsp...feature=fvwrel