2012.11.10 01:00 - Retreats and politics

Wol Euler was guardian for this session.

Hieronymus Box: good morning wol
Wol Euler: timezone-appropriate greetings, hieronymus
Hieronymus Box: bows, thank you, (hiero is ok)
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: how's life?
Hieronymus Box: looks around, crowded....
Hieronymus Box: life? life is fine; I hope, and I am fine too. How are you?
Wol Euler: trying to be mellow
Hieronymus Box: mmm :-(
Wol Euler: I'm taking part in a meditation retreat in SL this weekend
Hieronymus Box: hey, lobster
Wol Euler: we meet in-world twice a day to sit together and discuss matters, and try to continue in the spirit of hte retreat during the times apart
Wol Euler: hello crusty, haven't seen you in ages
Wol Euler: the latter part is of course the hard bit :)
Wol Euler: trying to hold the mind of a retreater while at home, with your dirtty dishes and your toys
Hieronymus Box: nods
Wol Euler: there's a reason why retreats are held in "third places", neutral ground, often empty rooms
Crusty Goldshark: Hi Guys have not been here for a while
Crusty Goldshark: Good to find it is still here . . .
Wol Euler smiles.
Hieronymus Box: to me it seems impossible to follow a schedule

--BELL--

Crusty Goldshark: Is this a formal sit time? Did not check the rosta . . .
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: 1am 7am 1pm 7pm
Hieronymus Box: you seem to be upset, wol, or is that just my anticipation??
Wol Euler: ??? upset about?
Hieronymus Box: oh, ok, so just my impression, (that is the big lack of sl, you cant see the one, you are talking with)
Wol Euler: people can tell a lot about emotional state here, yes, it's funny how well that *sometimes* works
Wol Euler: we can also get it entirely wrong, too, of course.
Wol Euler: which is why tempers flare here so high and so fast
Hieronymus Box: nods
Crusty Goldshark: Have not been on SL for a year or so - just trying it on Puppy Linux 5.4.1 - will need to speed it up a bit . . .
Hieronymus Box: I cant guess the mood of someone, if I cant see the expression of his face, the rithm of his breathing...
Crusty Goldshark: Mood gauging is s skill, will take me a while to adapt again
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: hiero is right, though, I am a bit upset :)
Wol Euler: lots of things coming together at the moment
Crusty Goldshark: something you want to share or not?
Hieronymus Box: ejx str xpi. epö 9og o ,sx sdl0
Hieronymus Box: ups
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Crusty Goldshark: que?
Hieronymus Box: why are you, wol? (if I may ask)
Wol Euler: ah, I recognize the characteristic typo of a touch-typist
Wol Euler: heheheh
Hieronymus Box: (sorry typing ten fingers without looking)
Wol Euler: exactly :)
Wol Euler: I suppose the main reason is actually the hate and rage around the American election
Wol Euler: I've recently realized that I too got caught up in that
Hieronymus Box: nods.....
Crusty Goldshark: ah yes - I am in the UK so we are not so involved
Wol Euler: and feel like I ought to wash my hands thoroughly and apologize for it
Hieronymus Box: a lot of emotions aroud the election.....
Wol Euler: well, I'm a Briton in Germany so I am not directly involved either :) but somehow it did ensnare me
Wol Euler: or rather, I walked willingly into its embrace
Hieronymus Box: ich auch
Wol Euler: that is the awful thing, how negative emotion is so strongly contagious
Wol Euler: how we jump onto that bandwagon of blind hate
Crusty Goldshark: luckily so are good emotions . . .
Wol Euler: Boxy was talking about being demonized here, and I am certainly guilty of demonizing the GOP and its most fervent suppporters
Crusty Goldshark: GOP?
Wol Euler: that came up as I was preparing for the retreat this weekend, we started by taking stock of where we are
Wol Euler: and deciding what our intention for the retreat is
Wol Euler: Grand Ole Party = Republicans
Crusty Goldshark: OK - thanks
Crusty Goldshark: Is that an SL retreat or actual? What tradition?

Sorry, Crusty, I missed this question. It is an SL retreat, but we are trying to make it "actual" despite that.

Hieronymus Box: You shouldnt blame yourself for the emotions, you feel, when you hear those awful people, their hate is infectious
Wol Euler: my point :)
Wol Euler: I feel the need for a moral antibiotic :)
Crusty Goldshark: LOL

--BELL--

Hieronymus Box: grins
Hieronymus Box: to me, the most frightening thing is, that I feel attracted by the democrats and use their political ideas as a measure for my own views and its harder and harder to realize, that they are far right from all what I see as my standpoint in politics
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: indeed, they would be considered right-of-centre in most European countries
Hieronymus Box: nods
Wol Euler: I think that decades-old two party system is part of what's wrong with American politics
Wol Euler: it inclines them to present every issue as a simple yes-or-no choice
Wol Euler: one side must be perfectly right, and the other side must be absolutely wrong
Wol Euler: whereas out here in the real world, nothing is that simple
Wol Euler: not even a question like "do I prefer broccoli to cauliflower" can be answered that absolutely :)
Wol Euler: depends how it's cooked, and what else I am eating with it :)
Hieronymus Box: grins
Hieronymus Box: easy question?
Wol Euler: but a polarized two-party system has no room for ideas like that
Hieronymus Box: lol
Crusty Goldshark: OK guys thanks for sitting with me have to tweak some settings BFN
Wol Euler: bye crusty, take care
Hieronymus Box: bye, lobster, take care
Wol Euler: and as long as the electoral college and this absurd primary vote encourages the two-party system, there cannot be a meaningful third party
Hieronymus Box: yes, definitly.....
Wol Euler: Jill Stein might have made a better president than Obama, certainly she is FAR closer to my ideals than he is in terms of her program
Wol Euler: but a vote for her is the same as a vote for Romney, in a two party system
Hieronymus Box: nods, the system stabilizes itself.....
Wol Euler: alas, yes
Wol Euler: that happened in Germany in ... was it 1984? with the appearance of the Green Party
Wol Euler: hooray for green politics and environmental consciousness, of course
Hieronymus Box: and as long as you dont question the fundamentals, it wont change
Wol Euler: but the result of their appearance was that the conservatives got in for a decade.
Hieronymus Box: grins
Wol Euler: because nobody on the right votes green
Wol Euler: they split the left voters
Hieronymus Box: we had a three party system here in 70s and 80s, the green party shaked it all up....
Wol Euler listens.
Hieronymus Box: the third party, the liberals, have been overrated in their value for overtaking the goverment in terms of number of voters
Hieronymus Box: as a fourth party came into play, it became very much different, and it developed into a two-party system, with "natural allies"
Wol Euler nods.
Hieronymus Box: red green and black yellow
Wol Euler nods.

--BELL--

Hieronymus Box: but as a party cant cover up all the opinions, likes and dislikes, more and more parties became important
Wol Euler nods.
Hieronymus Box: to me, germany is on its way to something, the pirates formulated recently......liquid democracy
Wol Euler listens.
Hieronymus Box: ...changing majorities, based on facts and discussion results more than ideologies....
Wol Euler: a fact-based system of government would be a nice change!
Hieronymus Box: (facts can be mainpulated too)
Wol Euler: of course, but they can at least be proven to be false. Religious belief cannot
Wol Euler: somebody who says "unemployment is higher than ever before" can be proven wrong.
Wol Euler: somebody who says "god wants you to vote for that guy" cannot
Wol Euler: anyway
Hieronymus Box: mm, thinking.....you can......
Hieronymus Box: but you need to go for the fundamentals.....
Hieronymus Box: I compare ideology (religion is very much the same) with a building, that has walls, but no doors and no windows....
Hieronymus Box: it is stable, and it offers you a stronghold and safety....
Wol Euler: nice analogy
Hieronymus Box: and it is comfortable to have a firm wall to lean on, that doesnt make it necessary to find your own stance, your own equilibrium
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: well, thinking is a burden and a risk :)
Hieronymus Box: nods....
Hieronymus Box: you live in Germany, like me...
Wol Euler nods.
Hieronymus Box: I had connections to the US, and it was shocking and a hard to understand thing, why intelligent people in a discussion at a point, where they lack of arguments, go to the wardrobe, pull out the american flagg and cover their uncertanity with it.....
Wol Euler: yep
Wol Euler: very sad to watch that happening
Wol Euler: stop thinking and reach for a flag, or a gun
Hieronymus Box: nods
Wol Euler: there is a tradition of intellingent debate in Europe which is frankly missing in the US
Wol Euler: they don't learn how to discuss issues
Wol Euler: without violence and insults
Hieronymus Box: (I was in Minneapolis once, for three weeks, and flaggs and guns have always been their last argument)

--BELL--

Wol Euler: this is why so many Americans are frightened by gun control: they feel that it takes away their ability to express their opinions
Hieronymus Box: its a cultural thing, the winner takes it all, and there is no judgement about how you win.....
Wol Euler nods.
Hieronymus Box: its not the way, the result counts, and they forget, that every result is only one step on the way
Wol Euler: people mock Australians for being a nation founded by exiled criminals, but it is just as true to say that America was founded by people who murdered the natives who were there first
Hieronymus Box: nods
Hieronymus Box: and the way, they where raised....a flagg-parade before the school opens in the moment, the strong survives, social darwinsm
Hieronymus Box: that is very strange for any european...
Wol Euler: agreed
Wol Euler: anyway, I'm sorry but I must go. The day begins, I have many things to get done before the retreat
Wol Euler: thanks for a great conversation, Hiero.
Hieronymus Box: thank you, wol
Wol Euler: enjoy the weekenc
Hieronymus Box: have a nice day and a good experience at the retreat
Wol Euler: thankk you :)