2012.11.18 07:00 - Dishonesty

The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Bleu Oleander: hi Cat :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: hi :)
Bleu Oleander: how are u?
Catrinamonblue Resident: good and you?
Bleu Oleander: great thx
Bleu Oleander: just listened to a very interesting talk
Bleu Oleander: http://bloggingheads.tv/videos/12751...tv+%28video%29
Catrinamonblue Resident: looking at it
Bleu Oleander: about dishonesty

--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: psychology of cheating and lying
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's 39 min long I will listen to it later. Can you summarize?
Bleu Oleander: Dan Ariely
Bleu Oleander: right ... for later
Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hello :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: hi

Bleu Oleander: was just talking about Dan Ariely's book
Bleu Oleander: on Dishonesty
Bleu Oleander: very interesting interview
Eliza Madrigal: okay :) will listen
Bleu Oleander: long ... for later

Bleu Oleander: he talks about 3 tips for societies to do:
Bleu Oleander: 1. reminding about morality at point of temptation
Bleu Oleander: 2. creating good habits
Bleu Oleander: 3. some kind of day of atonement

Bleu Oleander: i.e. New Year's Day
Bleu Oleander: or other

Eliza Madrigal: what does he say about #3?

Bleu Oleander: he feels its good to acknowledge our mistakes

Bleu Oleander: and move on with a "clean slate" so to speak
Bleu Oleander: hi Xs
Xs Andree: ao off
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Adams :) Lovely dress!
Eliza Madrigal: And Hi Xs ^.^
Xs Andree: Good aftermorneve
Bleu Oleander: hi Adams
Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: Jubilee
Catrinamonblue Resident: hello :)
Bleu Oleander: we're talking about dishonesty and Dan Ariely's book
Bleu Oleander: for later
Adams Rubble: thank you bleu
Bleu Oleander: another example for #3
Bleu Oleander: renewing vows
Bleu Oleander: to strengthen relationships
Eliza Madrigal: one could see the pauses here that way, or meditation times in general - 'dropping' - clean slate/atonement/jubilee (new beginning)
Bleu Oleander: yes, exactly
Eliza Madrigal: matters what heart or intention one brings to it of course...
Bleu Oleander: anyway, lots of interesting ideas in the interview
Eliza Madrigal: :) ty
Bleu Oleander: yw!
Bleu Oleander: what do you all think about honesty and cheating?
Bleu Oleander: he said cheating seems ok if everyone is doing it
Bleu Oleander: so social in that sense
Bleu Oleander: how we rationalize it
Adams Rubble: are you talking about cheating in sexual relationships?
Adams Rubble: or larger scope?
Bleu Oleander: how sometimes dishonesty is good for social relationships
Bleu Oleander: any social relationships
Catrinamonblue Resident: cheating in sexual relationships only causes hurt all round
Eliza Madrigal: interesting... so he is drawing importance to cultural context
Bleu Oleander: yes
Xs Andree: back, sorry, settling in with coffees
Bleu Oleander: so lying to your partner and telling them they look wonderful even if they don't can be a good thing
Adams Rubble: Sometimes what we think is true is an opinion and it maay be useful to keep that to ourself
Eliza Madrigal nods.... well what is the purpose of saying "you look awful today"... if underneath it is concern it may be important to be honest
Bleu Oleander: so dishonesty in sl .... good thing? bad thing?

--BELL--
Adams Rubble: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: hello everyone:-)
Bleu Oleander: do we consider it dishonest if we misrepresent our rl self in sl? to what extent is that OK?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xiri :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Xiri :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: the truth will set you free....
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Adams Rubble: Hi Xirana
Eliza Madrigal: I think the SL context is unique, and 'more unique' for each individual - that could be said of RL too yet the intention isn't built in necessarily
Xirana Oximoxi: hi Adams:)
Bleu Oleander: i'll make you a nc Xiri
Xirana Oximoxi: ok, thanks:)
Eliza Madrigal: we enter into expectations with one another through relationship, but I don't expect that when I meet a red headed avatar, they are red headed in RL
Xirana Oximoxi: I listen:)
Eliza Madrigal: so it isn't dishonest
Adams Rubble: or blond :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Adams Rubble: hopefully we would try not to hurt people
Eliza Madrigal: in RL cultural context we may not expect blondes are blondes either.... ;-)
Adams Rubble: hehe
Bleu Oleander: no meant more important details
Eliza Madrigal: some feel they've been lied to if they find out something 'new' about a person that seems a contradiction
Eliza Madrigal: people are so individual
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: is lying about gender OK?
Xs Andree: It is difficult to show ones entire being to another at once.
Eliza Madrigal: that kind of sense of lying seems to be in the eye of the beholder...
Bleu Oleander: are some things OK in sl but not in rl?
Xs Andree: I think it is petty to regard a new discovery about a friend as a betrayal, simply because it didn't align with what you considered you knew about them. Especially when people project upon each other what they DESIRE to see upon them.
Eliza Madrigal: a person may be sharing a real sense of themself ... more honest than honest
Catrinamonblue Resident: is sl meant to be a safe place to try on new identities? To explore other sides of our personalities?
Adams Rubble: SL is more eperimental
Eliza Madrigal nods Xs
Adams Rubble: but with experiementation we need to be sensitive to possibly hurting someone
Bleu Oleander: yes Cat ... up to a point? how far can or should we take that?
Eliza Madrigal: is fiction lying? I consider a work great fiction if it opens up something deeply truthful or genuine
Xirana Oximoxi: I think Xs has said the right thing....i"It is difficult to show ones entire being to another at once." ... so the best is to go slolwy in both worlds to know another person, if you feel you have some interest in doing so
Xs Andree: Fuck people's feelings. Fuck their opinions too.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Xs Andree: Especally mine.
Catrinamonblue Resident: I am who I am?
Eliza Madrigal: feelings are pretty important... they tint the way we hear and see
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Bleu Oleander: is there enough information given in sl to justify to a similar degree, the feeling we have?
Bleu Oleander: or is it easier to jump to conclusions?
Eliza Madrigal: when you hear people talk about influential or charismatic figures, they often say "they made me feel I was the only one in the room in a sea of people"
Xs Andree: Tyranny was once celebrated, and we wonder..."how could anyone celebrate the tyrant"
Xs Andree: But the Tyrant is the Charismatic leader, one who rules by invisible chains, of fear, terror, love, adoration, respect...
Xs Andree: he seduces the will to reason away from the pupulace, and then has complete dominion over them, by the cult of his personality
Bleu Oleander: more about control?
Bleu Oleander: manipulation of peoples feelings?
Xs Andree: well...tyrants can be good leaders or bad
Xs Andree nods
Xs Andree: The tabula rasa, the ability to be the projection of the desires of the people, to appear as what each wishes the leader to appear, the sense that your leader is on your side, no matter the evidence otherwise.
Eliza Madrigal: Bleu, the question of justification is huge - we may feel justified to something on all kinds of basis ... histories, past behavior, big smile...
Xs Andree: I think if you have to justify something, you shouldn't do it.
Catrinamonblue Resident: even if the outcome is good?
Eliza Madrigal: not sure we can function without assumptions.... would have to stop the world
Xs Andree: only from personal experience though, everything I"ve had to justify that I"ve done, I"ve wound up regretting later, and the justifications were never good enough to cleanse that remorse for the outcimes.
Bleu Oleander: is justification a bad thing always?
Xs Andree: for me I think it is.
Eliza Madrigal: that's what trust is... trust that there is some cushioning to absorb misguidedness and mistakes

--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: thus benefit of continual atonement
Bleu Oleander: can justification merely mean a giving of reasons for actions?
Eliza Madrigal: it is kind of silly to think one could ever be so careful, even if they determined not to experiment, as to not make mistakes
Bleu Oleander: yes
Xirana Oximoxi: I would run very far away of someone that thinks that does not mistakes
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Bleu Oleander: Mistakes were made but not by me ... another good book
Xirana Oximoxi: the perfect one:)
Xirana Oximoxi: 'perfect'
Eliza Madrigal: when I look back on things I regret, it is a very small focus - when I back up I can almost always find some intention or circumstance that sheds new light - which doesn't mean one doesn't feel sorry still
Adams Rubble: Please excuse me. I must go get my other avatar ready for this afternoon :)
Adams Rubble: bye everyone :)
Xirana Oximoxi: :))
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Adams
Eliza Madrigal: bye Adams, wish I could make today
Bleu Oleander: bye Adams ntsy
Xs Andree: I think, that if another person can possibly entertain that no one around them makes mistakes either...
Xs Andree: it would not bother me if they didn't feel that they did.
Xs Andree: It would be a complete lack of judgement...to consider that no one makes mistakes, that intent and action may not be "cause and effect"
Xs Andree: that things happen because they happen, beyond intent, beyond good and evil, even.
Eliza Madrigal: nods, so that again is about the cultural context , in a way - maybe an experimental field or zone in which mistakes are not held against, or sticky (not that I've experienced that before but...)
Bleu Oleander: some contexts might encourage a culture of mistakes
Bleu Oleander: as in just try different things ... don't worry about making mistatkes
Bleu Oleander: perhaps in many ways sl is like that
Xs Andree: Well, i don't ascribe to any single religion, but I was raised Christian
Xs Andree: it always struck me as...backward, that the central tenet of Christianity was that all sin and offense had been pardoned and forgiven at the cross
Xs Andree: ...and yet still at the center of it all, are Christians mostly concerned about the sin of the world.

--BELL--
Xs Andree: and getting other people to "stop" offenses that had already been paid for.
Xirana Oximoxi: wb Eliza:)
Bleu Oleander: wb Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: ty Xiri :) will have to read the log to fill in gaps
Catrinamonblue Resident: I was raised catholic and like the idea of confession to admit to ones mistakes and make atonement for hurt caused
Bleu Oleander: that's an example of what we were talking about earlier Cat
Bleu Oleander: what Dan Ariely suggests as a tip for cultures
Catrinamonblue Resident: I know but do find it more of a comfort than to think no one makes mistakes
Bleu Oleander: to build in to a culture atonement type experiences
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I like that phrasing
Bleu Oleander: might have to read his book :)
Bleu Oleander: have heard him speak a number of times
Eliza Madrigal: dignity seems important in this regard - high dignity to sincerely apologize
Bleu Oleander: yes
Xirana Oximoxi: which book, Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: http://web.mit.edu/ariely/www/MIT/
Eliza Madrigal: I wasn't raised catholic but always wished that I was for the sake of confession which seemed a great idea :)
Xirana Oximoxi: sorry If you were talking about it before... :-)
Xirana Oximoxi: thank you!! :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: lots of bits and pieces I'd take from many religious paradigms... in Judaism same... day to apologize for known and unknown offenses
Xirana Oximoxi: I absolutly refuse this idea of a god forgiving my sins :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :) listens
Xs Andree: I can't refuse or believe in anything.
Xs Andree: I'm a nihilist, to be a nihilist is to believe in nothing, and to reject that even believing in nothing is truth
Xirana Oximoxi: not a lot to listen Liz:))... I learn from what I do and try to improve...but I don't beleive in any kind of God:)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I don't believe in god forgiving sins either but the act of confession gives us time to reflect on our actions and the consequences thereof
Xs Andree: To reject truth exists, even if that truth is "No truth exists"...that must be discarded as well
Eliza Madrigal: ah :) yes... that makes sense Xiri...
Eliza Madrigal: one can appreciate confession without a god, and tradition also/ritual.. suppose many do
Eliza Madrigal: my vocabulary is too fluid - the second I might say I don't believe or do believe, a million qualifiers come up so... I have to remain a bundle of contradictions
Catrinamonblue Resident: I sometimes think we all are just contradictions on a theme
Bleu Oleander: what ever ones' version, some kind of admitting wrongs/mistakes and starting over was what was suggested
Eliza Madrigal: need to found a bundle of contradictions church
Bleu Oleander: could be religious, could be secular
Eliza Madrigal: :P
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes... along the lines of "School of Life" Bleu, maybe
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: cultures could benefit from having some systems in place for this
Xirana Oximoxi: I must go now! take care all and see you soon!! :-).. and thanks for all interesting links:)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm just now waking up with this topic but if one thinks about it, confession is a huge part of life - people come to the internet to talk about things they couldn't otherwise, or to therapists, or to best friends....
Eliza Madrigal: it is everywhere
Eliza Madrigal: ((Xiri))))
Bleu Oleander: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Bleu Oleander: ok bye Xiri :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Xirana
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye:)
Bleu Oleander: thanks you all
Bleu Oleander: take care
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye
Eliza Madrigal: me too.... bye everyone
Eliza Madrigal: thank you Bleu
Bleu Oleander: bye bye
Catrinamonblue Resident: are you off to XS?
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye