2012.11.07 07:00 - Optimism and Awareness

Comments are by Zen Arado.

Introductions:

Storm Nordwind: Hi Zen. Bieup started reboot 2 minutes ago
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Storm
Zen (zen.arado): yeh, I just got there and was booted off
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Zen, Storm :)
Storm Nordwind: Good morning Bleu :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Bleu :)
Zen (zen.arado): I got away with no restart last wek
Storm Nordwind: It transferred to me instead ;)
Storm Nordwind: No preferential treatment!
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Zen (zen.arado): they must atart at 7 am at Linden Labs
Zen (zen.arado): maybe they do shift work
Zen (zen.arado): I suppose somebody has to be there all the time
Zen (zen.arado): in case something goes wrong with the servers
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Xiri :)
Storm Nordwind: Well I hope my tier pays for something :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Xiri :)
Storm Nordwind: Hi Xirana!
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): Hello Bleu, Zen, Storm:)
Zen (zen.arado): is there a topic this week or is it still boxy :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): haha
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hopefully done there
Storm Nordwind: Didn't see one on Bleu's board
Bleu (bleu.oleander): no topic this week
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): free conversation:)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): guardians didn't pick any for next two weeks
Zen (zen.arado): I was at a virtual ability meeting last night

Optimism about life:

Zen (zen.arado): the topic was' how do we keep optimistic about life'
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): in what sense 'virtual ability'?...to build?
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ah...very different sense:)
Zen (zen.arado): it's for disabled people
Bleu (bleu.oleander): what did they say?
Zen (zen.arado): well, I immediately challenged the assumption in the question
Storm Nordwind: /me smiles
Storm Nordwind: Several actually
Zen (zen.arado): that we should be optimistic all the time
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :)
Zen (zen.arado): but to me it raises a bigger question
Zen (zen.arado): about all the techniques and strategies we use to get through life
Zen (zen.arado): and it makes me wonder why we can't take raw unadulterated life as it is
Zen (zen.arado): any comments?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I think there have always been strategies to help us get through life
Bleu (bleu.oleander): life is hard sometimes
Zen (zen.arado): Yes
Zen (zen.arado): so it's good to develop an optimistic outlook?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Yaku
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello Yaku! :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Yaku :)
Storm Nordwind: Well Zen, perhaps when people react to what life brings, they hold on to their feelings and identify with them instead of letting them pass through. Maybe that's why they can't take life in the raw.
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): hey there
Zen (zen.arado): Good point storm
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): looks i fell asleep at the right place last night :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): what does it mean to take life in the raw?
Zen (zen.arado): :-)
Storm Nordwind: You did Yaku-Ruth. I nudged you but it had no effect!
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes...Zen...I think a good strategy is to try to look for positive side of anything....if possible..I know sometimes there are thinks that don't have this positive side
Storm Nordwind: /me sees Ruth disappear, thankfully
Zen (zen.arado): well, to me it means just facing up to what it is right now in the present without telling ourselves stories that it will be better in the future, for instance
Bleu (bleu.oleander): that in itself is a strategy
Zen (zen.arado): yes that's the problem
Zen (zen.arado): you can't have a strategy less strategy :-)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I don't see it as a problem
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)
Zen (zen.arado): a no strategy strategy
Storm Nordwind: You don't see to look at the positive side of everything if you don't judge between positive and negative and simply be aware of what is.
Storm Nordwind: *need to look
Zen (zen.arado): yes because positive and negative are conceptual judgements
Bleu (bleu.oleander): in many ways we need to be able to judge positive vs. negative
Bleu (bleu.oleander): wouldn't survive otherwise
Zen (zen.arado): why Bleu?
Storm Nordwind: Yes. But we don't need to identify with those judgments
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I see Storm, but usually we have also positive and negative feelings with what 'is'....and that's a way to be alive too
Bleu (bleu.oleander): no just need to act on them

Our 'animal vehicle' and awareness:

Storm Nordwind: Our animal vehicle does that for us, even to the point of driving on the right side of the road. :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): better to run than to be lunch
Bleu (bleu.oleander): what is our animal vehicle?
Storm Nordwind: You're sitting in it right now :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I am it
Storm Nordwind: Ah... we differ there
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes
Zen (zen.arado): it automatically reacts without thinking or making judgements
Bleu (bleu.oleander): so you think you are separate from your animal vehicle?
Storm Nordwind: Yes
Bleu (bleu.oleander): really?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): how so?
Storm Nordwind: Absolutely. Always have
Bleu (bleu.oleander): like a spirit separate from the body?
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): beeing in SL makes me feel also as somehow separated of my 'animal vehicle'....not sure if in the same meaning of Storm
Storm Nordwind: Not sure about those words as they have overtones that mean different things to different people, but possibly it helps to use that analogy
Bleu (bleu.oleander): how would you describe it then?
Storm Nordwind: I see me as an awareness.
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): more mental....
Storm Nordwind: It is aware of body, emotions, thoughts
Zen (zen.arado): but' awareness' is a kind of concept too
Bleu (bleu.oleander): does your awareness have a kind of agency?
Zen (zen.arado): I'm never quite sure what it is
Storm Nordwind: yes. But it will be hard to describe without using any concepts at all
Bleu (bleu.oleander): to me awareness is a process
Zen (zen.arado): that's the problem
Storm Nordwind: I don't know what you mean by agency Bleu
Second Life: Riddle Sideways is online.
Bleu (bleu.oleander): intentions on its own
Zen (zen.arado): it has to have something that is aware
Zen (zen.arado): it can't exist on its own?
Storm Nordwind: I'm not sure whether the intention is part of the pure awareness, but it seems very tightly bound and seems to persist
Bleu (bleu.oleander): when you say "it" is aware ... does "it" mean awareness ... so are you saying awareness is aware?
Zen (zen.arado): I asked my Zen teacher one time about the impossibility of having free will
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi geminatto
Zen (zen.arado): and he said ' but we have awareness'
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hello geninato
Zen (zen.arado): which I didn't understand
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Geminatto
Storm Nordwind: What I am is awareness
Storm Nordwind: If I had awareness, what would I be?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): a clever organism :)
Storm Nordwind: Very flattering, Bleu, but yes perhaps
Bleu (bleu.oleander): sorry didn't mean to be so flip
Zen (zen.arado): animals have awareness surely?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): on my second cup of coffee
Bleu (bleu.oleander): yes, animals have awareness
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): sure
Bleu (bleu.oleander): to some extent even single cell bacteria have awareness
Zen (zen.arado): it seems to be a quality we have that we project to other creatures

Storm Nordwind: The things is, I have perceptions - and have had constantly for 40 years - that extend far beyond the normal confines of my organism, and memories that go far beyond its existence. It's hard to live with those and deny them. The mind reconciles by creating a mystical cosmology but I can just accept it all!
Zen (zen.arado): what are the normal confines of our organisms?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): how does one go far beyond its existence?
Zen (zen.arado): All of our minds can range immensely
Storm Nordwind: What we perceive and influence day to day
Storm Nordwind: Bleu, I have no answer to "how". I have to model that can be demonstrated to others.
Zen (zen.arado): our minds can travel in time and space
Storm Nordwind: *no model
Bleu (bleu.oleander): something you just know?
Storm Nordwind: something I experience daily. Things I perceive and sometimes things I influence
Bleu (bleu.oleander): if you had a model it would be fascinating to experience
Storm Nordwind: I can't transfer or share the experience, sadly
Bleu (bleu.oleander): transferring not as easy as in sl
Zen (zen.arado): are you saying you experience things that other people don't, Storm?
Storm Nordwind: I have trained others to experience very small *and debatable) parts of it. But that's nothing like where i live!
Bleu (bleu.oleander): so is this an experience you can't share with anyone? only yourself?
Zen (zen.arado): the second question is, how do you know?
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): you can do in some different way...like you do here explaining your perceptions on the topics we talk about...
Storm Nordwind: If I experience the taste of a mango, nothing I can say will give you the experience of that taste
Bleu (bleu.oleander): qualia
Second Life: nabrej Aabye is online.
Zen (zen.arado): That's true
Bleu (bleu.oleander): subjective experience
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes, that's true...but poets do also share feelings with words
Storm Nordwind: pragmatic experience
Storm Nordwind: Yes, Xirana and that has also been the problem of spiritual teachers down the ages.
Zen (zen.arado): really none of us can experience what anyone else does
Zen (zen.arado): although we can't share up to a point
Bleu (bleu.oleander): can't really know if your mango tastes like mine
Zen (zen.arado): can I mean
Storm Nordwind: True Bleu. But I will see the smile on your face :)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): smiles are universal I think
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): hey riddle
Zen (zen.arado): most of what we know about the others is a projection of our own feelings?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Riddle
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Riddle
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hi Rid!...good run:)
Riddle Sideways: yep, good to run
Zen (zen.arado): Someone could be smiling because they enjoyed brutally raping and murdering someone?
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): probably yes, Zen...
Bleu (bleu.oleander): hi Xs
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Xs
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): and hello andree
Storm Nordwind: By the way, I apologise if some of you have just asking me questions that I haven't answered. I type slowly and usually only manage to answer one at a time!
Riddle Sideways: missed the world restart
Xs Andree: /me waves to everyone
Xs Andree: Thank you very much Storm
Storm Nordwind: Morning Riddle, Xs
Bleu (bleu.oleander): haven't managed answer more than one at a time either :)
Zen (zen.arado): I'd like to explain what we are talking about Riddle and Xs but I'm not sure myself :-)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): it's a little like the sounds of each lagnuage...when we learn a new one we don't recognise the sounds that are not in our own :)
Riddle Sideways: just type "maybe", that can answer all at once
Bleu (bleu.oleander): :) Riddle
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hi Xs! :)
Zen (zen.arado): something about awareness and whether we all have the same awareness?

Optimism again:

Zen (zen.arado): I started this by asking whether being optimistic is a good strategy
Riddle Sideways: would be nice if we all did, but think not
Xs Andree: I think we do not, not at all
Xs Andree: /me hugs her other X
Riddle Sideways: glass is half empty of optimism
Zen (zen.arado): :-)
Zen (zen.arado): I find optimism more difficult as I get older
Xs Andree: Glass is always full
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): or half full :)
Zen (zen.arado): less things to be optimistic about maybe
Xs Andree: glass is always full
Xs Andree: It must be at least full of nothing
Zen (zen.arado): but I prefer to just go with the flow in the present
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I never seem to run out of things to be optimistic about
Zen (zen.arado): I don't even know if I have much future to be optimistic about
Riddle Sideways: nope, election [stuff] is over. Time to be optimistic
Xs Andree: Why is that?
Xs Andree: lol Riddle
Storm Nordwind: While you guys argue whether the glass is half full or half empty, I've gone ahead and drunk it. :)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hehe :))
Bleu (bleu.oleander): haha me too
Zen (zen.arado): well, merely that I am getting old
Riddle Sideways: lol
Zen (zen.arado): easier to be optimistic when you are 20?
Bleu (bleu.oleander): coffee cup half full ...
Storm Nordwind: Not at all Zen.
Xs Andree: Charlie Brown and Lucy are at McDonalds, and as usual, poor Charlie Brown gets the short end of the stick
Zen (zen.arado): there are more possibilities at 20
Bleu (bleu.oleander): I don't think so
Storm Nordwind: There is less mellowness at 20
Xs Andree: And Lucy is talking about the optimism and pessimistic views of half full and half empty glasses
Bleu (bleu.oleander): many possibilities at any age I think
Storm Nordwind: Indeed
Xs Andree: And Brown is thinking..."But....I ordered a cheezburger"
Bleu (bleu.oleander): age is overrated
Zen (zen.arado): beginners mind :-)
Zen (zen.arado): :) Xs
Xs Andree: yus?
Xs Andree: oh.
Xs Andree: :D
Bleu (bleu.oleander): well have to get going ... thanks for the conversation everyone
Zen (zen.arado): but doesn't optimism increase disappointment when it doesn't work out?
Storm Nordwind: Bye for now Bleu!
Bleu (bleu.oleander): take care :)
Zen (zen.arado): byee Bleu
Storm Nordwind: Why shuld it Zen?
Xs Andree: optimism doesn't have to come with expectation
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye bye Bleu, take care:)
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): bye bleu
Storm Nordwind: Only if you hang on to what you're optimistic about
Storm Nordwind: Attachment
Zen (zen.arado): but to me that is the problem with optimism, it tries to freeze the future a bit
Zen (zen.arado): whereas it is better to be flexible?
Xs Andree: i used to play a vampire who was very up and down in his moods...
Xs Andree: and his sire, the one who created him, would always tell me, no matter if he was in a good or bad mood...
Xs Andree: ...this too shall pass.
Zen (zen.arado): a good saying
Zen (zen.arado): I use it a lot
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): maybe it's good to be optimistic but also to have the capacity to value possibilities
Zen (zen.arado): optimism seems to reduce the possibilities though?
Zen (zen.arado): It turns us away from the possibility that outcomes might not be good outcomes
Zen (zen.arado): we just want to know about the good things
Storm Nordwind: May I suggest you have the wrong definition of optimism? :)
Zen (zen.arado): well, I'm just playing around with definitions
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): the fact that things pass...is not a good reason to feel they don't matter...
Storm Nordwind: Optimism isn't about whether or not a certain event will happen
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): yes, Storm:)
Xs Andree: it is a very good reason to treasure every moment,
Zen (zen.arado): I would use that saying in a difficult and bad situation
Storm Nordwind: optimism is confidence that whatever happens you will react well
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): ok, Xs...right:)
Zen (zen.arado): this too will pass..
Xs Andree: :D
Xs Andree: I like that, Storm
Storm Nordwind: Optimism is about you, not about the outside world
Xs Andree: i will react well.
Xs Andree: This too shall pass.
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): me too....to be able to 'stand' whatever happens
Zen (zen.arado): yes but aren't you addibg in confidence Storm?
Zen (zen.arado): there seems to be a hopefulness with optimism to me
Xs Andree: That will be very important during the Zombie Apocalypse
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)
Storm Nordwind: There's hope and then there's confidence :)

Hope:

Zen (zen.arado): uncertainty with hope
Xs Andree: Faith is the substance of hope. Hope is the EVIDENCE of things unseen, therefore, when you hope, you hope upon a sure thing.
Zen (zen.arado): Zen teachers tell you to drop hope
Xs Andree: For nothing is created or destroyed, its form merely changes, that which is hidden becomes revealed, that which is revealed becomes hidden
Storm Nordwind: I'd agree with your Zen teachers on that!
Zen (zen.arado): the Bible talks about having hope
Xs Andree: Biblical hope is different, it is not wishful thinking.
Zen (zen.arado): faiths and hope are very close
Zen (zen.arado): I think
Storm Nordwind: I need neither
Zen (zen.arado): faith
Xs Andree: Here, I think we percieve fath and hope differently.
Xs Andree: faith
Riddle Sideways: sure seem to be talking dualisms here
Zen (zen.arado): perhaps some optimism is necessary
Zen (zen.arado): we wouldn't start any project if we didn't have optimism it would succeed?
Riddle Sideways: my company does :)
Xs Andree: I have, but I have not been able to complete them
Xs Andree: LOL Riddle.
Zen (zen.arado): faith hope and charity
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Storm Nordwind: That is not necessarily what most people call optimism. It's an assessment of probabilities based on all data you know and the best methods you have for appraisingthem
Zen (zen.arado): and that produces optimism, no?
Zen (zen.arado): :-)
Storm Nordwind: If that's what you're susceptible to, perhaps. But it needn't.
Zen (zen.arado): yes, I suppose
Riddle Sideways: need to go, bye good friends
Xs Andree: is optimism and excitement the same?
Second Life: Riddle Sideways is offline.
Zen (zen.arado): byee Riddle
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): bye bye Rid! :)
Xs Andree: /me wave waves to Riddle
Storm Nordwind: Hell's teeth, why do I carry on with PaB? Is it optimism? No! ;)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): hahaha:))
Xs Andree: :P
Zen (zen.arado): or excitement storm?
Zen (zen.arado): :-)
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :)
Xs Andree: i'm very manic today, but i got very good news yesterday
Zen (zen.arado): oh Xs?
Storm Nordwind: Excitement is what I get from watching football ;)
Xs Andree: yus
Xs Andree: Specially K-State Foozball!
Storm Nordwind: Can you share your good news Xs?
Xs Andree: go CATS we CAN has cheezborghers!
Storm Nordwind: hahahahaha!
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Xs Andree: eee hee hee hee!
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): :))
Xs Andree: i can, yus, but i meant as way to explain my disquiet

Random flightiness:)

Xs Andree: and random flightiness.
Storm Nordwind: /me points out, for those not in the know: http://icanhas.cheezburger.com/
Xs Andree: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bparw9Jo3dk
Xs Andree: Put on those shades and wait till yesterday....the sunlight hurts my eyes...
Xs Andree: I found out yesterday the reason for the difficulty in my life...and why i sometimes refuse to let things go...
Xs Andree: and why people are so very concerned for the things i do, while i seem to be fine with them
Xirana (xirana.oximoxi): I must go now...thank you all!! have anice day and see you soon! :)
Zen (zen.arado): yes ?
Storm Nordwind: I thought it was "wave to yesterday" - though I like your version :)
Zen (zen.arado): buee Xiri ty for coming
Second Life: Xirana (xirana.oximoxi) is offline.
Xs Andree: I always get song lyrics wrong
Xs Andree: lol
Xs Andree: but yeah, it is wave
Xs Andree: wait till yesterday...
Xs Andree: I do like more too
Storm Nordwind: Indeed
Xs Andree: I started manifesting recently again. i was very concerned about my desires coming through, and manifesting with everything else.
Xs Andree: I have very deep passions, some of which are not very "optimistic"
Xs Andree: But i started to feel confident enough to try again after a "boot camp" summer of wrestling with desire, and learning many things about it.
Xs Andree: and then last week, I had many requets
Xs Andree: too many for the week
Zen (zen.arado): unusual video
Xs Andree: And i started to imagine in my meditation, each person as an orb, a moon
Zen (zen.arado): old people not seen often in pop videos
Xs Andree: and i needed to put them all together into one desire, so I could focus with clarity
Xs Andree: I love it for that. We worship youth because of our culture's drive to sell...sex and death create anxiety...the product provides release from anxiety...so youth is celebrated, and age is feared
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Xs Andree: and in this, there is both, youth and age, the "heros" of the videos are aged, near death, yet celebrate life as youths
Zen (zen.arado): but sometimse it is by trying to make them seem the same as young people
Xs Andree: We can be, and some of them are.
Xs Andree: and some young people can be very aged as well
Zen (zen.arado): though I guess I am old like that and I like dancing in SL
Xs Andree: lol me too
Xs Andree: oh! i got distracted
Zen (zen.arado): and being a DJ
Zen (zen.arado): things that would not happen in RL
Xs Andree: its my wake up song, though.
Xs Andree: hah, they do.
Zen (zen.arado): we don't have to conform to our stereotypes
Storm Nordwind: Fear is always the favorite tool of salesmen, politicians and evangelists.
Xs Andree: more these days than before. Older people are far more welcome a youth celebrations than before.
Xs Andree: oh, but i put these desires on feathers
Xs Andree: and drew the feathers together on a peacock
Zen (zen.arado): reminds me of young peope being embarassed by theirt parents dancing at weddings
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Xs Andree: And the peacock was my desire, so...one desire serving many
Xs Andree: eee hee hee hee!
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Storm Nordwind: It's one of the delights of old age, to embarrass the immature ;)
Xs Andree: i had concerns that this would be..diluted out, trying to focus on so many at once, but it was not.
Zen (zen.arado): perhaps optimism covers fear
Zen (zen.arado): he ha Strom
Xs Andree: the outcomes of my manifesting were just as strong as before, when i'd focus on only one
Xs Andree: and then last night Eos showed me Poison Destroying Peacock method of buddhism
Zen (zen.arado): oh? never heard of that
Xs Andree: and suddenly...my life made sense...and it was the one i chose.
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): got to go, see everyone soon
Xs Andree: I can find a link if you like.
Second Life: Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus) is offline.
Zen (zen.arado): byee Yaku
Xs Andree: /me waves waves to Yaku
Zen (zen.arado): sure
Zen (zen.arado): Eos likes Chogyam Trungpa Buddhims
Second Life: Anna (annabelledeanne) is online.
Storm Nordwind: It's like tantra, using what might harm to heal
Zen (zen.arado): I think from what he says sometimes
Xs Andree: http://www.artofdharma.org/archives/...-mind-training
Xs Andree: /me nods
Zen (zen.arado): yeh..I don't know much about Tibetan Buddhism
Xs Andree: me either, i know nothing about it, or even other buddhism
Zen (zen.arado): interesting Xs
Zen (zen.arado): thanks for link
Second Life: mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry) is online.
Storm Nordwind: Well I must fly. Thanks for the session :)
Xs Andree: my best friend was telling me a week before I started this, that i needed to discover my spirit guide
Xs Andree: said it was a woman with moon eyes.
Zen (zen.arado): I read Trungpa's book about Mind Training
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): hi :)
Storm Nordwind: Bye guys :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Alf :)
Xs Andree: BOXY!
Second Life: Storm Nordwind is offline.
the voice: Xs Andree takes boxy's bone and runs away
Zen (zen.arado): byee Storm
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): wait, i thought storm is here too
Xs Andree: He just had to leave before you got here
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): too late
Zen (zen.arado): just gone
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): yes, hiding from me
Xs Andree: I love you, Boxy
Zen (zen.arado): been here an hour and quarter
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): he owes me some money
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): xs :)
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): did you express your condolences to kori?
Zen (zen.arado): oh about the election?
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): yea
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): poor girl
Zen (zen.arado): haven't seen her yet
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): she was so hopeful
Zen (zen.arado): but I am glad Obama got in
Xs Andree: http://www.myxer.com/video/id/560835...-Brian-Part-2/
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): i actually did not care this time
Xs Andree: i did not either. i was going to vote for someone i knew
Xs Andree: but she hates gray hair
Xs Andree: so..i wound up not voting
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): :)
Zen (zen.arado): I don't like Republicanism
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): i like what sergey brin said
Xs Andree: I do, I don't like what its become.
Zen (zen.arado): and I'm not even American
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): he encouraged politicians to quit their respective parties and go independent
Xs Andree: it does not hold to its own values, and has been taken over by sophistry of the worst sort
Xs Andree: i think so as well.
Xs Andree: both parties are "green" these days
Zen (zen.arado): it seems libertarian to me
Xs Andree: munny munny
Zen (zen.arado): I am more socialist
Xs Andree: I am more nihilist
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): zen, which is natural for us social beings :)
Zen (zen.arado): but Europeans tend to be more socialist than Americans
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): heh, i think "tend" is not strong of a word
Xs Andree: yeah, but americans think socialism is what USSR had...and the USSR was socialist the way USA is democracy
Xs Andree: which is...not at all
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): anything socialist in the u.s. = commie :)
Zen (zen.arado): communitarian is a better word
Zen (zen.arado): but lots don't know that one
Xs Andree: well many resources in former soviet russia were devoted to propagandizing the people that they were a socialism, when they were much like the US...a Polyarchy
Zen (zen.arado): I wrote a dissertatio about liberalism vs communitarianism one time
Xs Andree: oooh...
Xs Andree: So...that was for your Masters?
Zen (zen.arado): a perverted form of communism more like Xs
Zen (zen.arado): yep
Zen (zen.arado): forgotten most of that stuff again
Xs Andree: It wasn't even close, Stalin STOLE the tools from the people right after they won it for themselves, and placed it back in the hands of the state
Xs Andree: and drove Russia into an industrialized state because he didn't think a peasant society could stand against an industrialized west
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): communism is an utopia. can never work in a current society.
Zen (zen.arado): there was a radio prog here last week talking about 36 million Chinese who starved to death under Mao reforms
Zen (zen.arado): forcing ideologies onto people
Xs Andree: I think utopias don't work...because they start with the idea that happiness comes from the state.
Zen (zen.arado): they were eating tree bark
Xs Andree: we eat wood pulp in much of our food
Zen (zen.arado): yeh..ideologies dreamed up by sole intessectuals in an armchair don't work
Xs Andree: up to 30% of foodstuffs can include wood pulp for 'texture" without needing to be on the label of ingredients
Zen (zen.arado): hmmm
Zen (zen.arado): you are putting me off my dinner :)
Xs Andree: yeah, I remember, fast food hamburgers used to taste much less like sawdust
Zen (zen.arado): which I better go and make
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): good point
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): me too
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): nom nom
Xs Andree: Are you staying with us, Boxy?
Zen (zen.arado): byee and ty for coming Xs, boxy
Xs Andree: I know Pema loves you.
mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry): :)
Second Life: mighty pirate (alfred.kelberry) is offline.
Xs Andree: :(
Zen (zen.arado): oh, I will lose your converrsation unless you go to the pavilion
Xs Andree: i was there before I came here, do I still need to go there?
Zen (zen.arado): he's gone :)
Zen (zen.arado): no it's because it was offline for a restart we came here
Xs Andree: yeah, I'm worried about Boxy, i don't think he knows how well loved he is here. He feels that people are against him
Xs Andree: yeah, I'm worried about Boxy, i don't think he knows how well loved he is here. He feels that people are against him
Zen (zen.arado): no point going back there now
Xs Andree: grrr
Xs Andree: Ok
Zen (zen.arado): yeh well...
Xs Andree: Thank you very much for the much advice you've given me, Zen
Zen (zen.arado): byee
Xs Andree: /me waves
Zen (zen.arado): me?
Xs Andree: eat well and be happy!
Xs Andree: yes
Zen (zen.arado): thanks :)
Xs Andree: thank you, you've helped me a lot