The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

Catrinamonblue Resident: 's current display-name is "Catrinamonblue".
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: Good morning Cat :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Good Morning :)

Learning patience.

Catrinamonblue Resident: learning patience as I type line by line transactions from a report into excel as in cannot be imported
Storm Nordwind: One does what one has to do.
Catrinamonblue Resident: sigh... yes
Storm Nordwind: And the typing is only one part of the process. Thereafter comes the checking.
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Storm Nordwind: If they are financial transactions, perhaps they are related to account balance ;-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes they are :)

Loose hands on the control yoke.

Storm Nordwind: Regarding "Patience as related to balance", I am reminded of a flying analogy.
Storm Nordwind: When flying in difficult conditions, perhaps with a lot of turbulence, the tendency with a beginner is to over correct.
Storm Nordwind: Or when they learn to fly on instruments, they may find themselves "hunting" the perfection air speed (or whatever)
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: But in difficult conditions, one has to eschew the temptation to over control, and for that one needs patience.
Storm Nordwind: One holds the control yoke in loose hands, allowing the small perturbations to arise and subside, and only adjusting - gently - for big changes.
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes, there is a temptation to just do it but I have to go slow and careful to be sure I get averything. Otherwise there will be more time spent hunting mistakes :)
Storm Nordwind: Exactly so.
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)

Forced into the back seat.

Storm Nordwind: Then one looks at other situations - flying, data entering, or otherwise - and wonders why they cannot also be controlled with a loose touch on the yoke. :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: let go control :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: that is sometimes very hard in life
Storm Nordwind: The equanimity that seems so easy at some times, and difficult at others, can gradually infuse our whole lives.
Storm Nordwind: I think I've heard the expression (possibly a book title) "Don't sweat the small stuff"
Catrinamonblue Resident: I have been learning to let go control over the last 4 months. I have been forced into the backseat and someone else is driving .
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)

What is really important?

Storm Nordwind: But what is REALLY important anyway?
Catrinamonblue Resident: never read it but heard of it
Storm Nordwind: What really is other than small?
Storm Nordwind: What is worth taking a strong grip on the control yoke and imposing our will?
Catrinamonblue Resident: sometimes we take control because others pass us control, not knowing what else to do
Storm Nordwind: That is true!
Catrinamonblue Resident: and when they take that control back, it is hard to let go having become used t it
Storm Nordwind: Ah... people do become attached to control, sometimes more than many other things!
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)

Trust.

Storm Nordwind: There is a related issue of "trust". Is it easier to relinquish control when one trusts the person who will take control?
Catrinamonblue Resident: mmmm good question
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps it depends on why one is clinging to keeping control.
Catrinamonblue Resident: sometimes trust doesn't come into it though when control is taken back
Storm Nordwind: Yes. One can feel affronted, for example. Or feel that a part of us is being taken away.
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes, until one accepts that control was never really what one had anyway
Storm Nordwind: Haha - yes!
Catrinamonblue Resident: what is control?
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Druth :)
druth Vlodovic: hey guys
Storm Nordwind: It is like magic ;-) An extension of one's will. Mind into matter.
Storm Nordwind: Hi druth
--BELL--

How much do we really control?

Catrinamonblue Resident: but do we really have control over our environment?
Catrinamonblue Resident: or is control an illusion
Storm Nordwind: What do you think? :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I thnk we can affect our environment but control it no
Storm Nordwind: Why do you think that?
Catrinamonblue Resident: because there are always other factors involved that can not be controlled
Catrinamonblue Resident: the tighter you try to hold onto control the more factors slip through your fingers
Storm Nordwind: Cannot? Or that's they're unknown? Or too big? Or just that we currently don't know how?
Catrinamonblue Resident: all of the above :)
Storm Nordwind: Or that the idea of control implies to some a separation of controller and controlled, which could well be an illusion anyway? ;-)
druth Vlodovic: I doubt many people would like me to give them orders on the grounds that they are an extension of me and there fore should submit to my willpower :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: don't we do that with our children though? to a certain extent?
Storm Nordwind: Ah... perhaps doubt, and doubting that reality is your problem druth! ;-))
druth Vlodovic: actually I have seldom tried to control my kids
Catrinamonblue Resident: that is true :)
druth Vlodovic: teach them? influence them? guide them? sure
Storm Nordwind: Well with children, again it reminds me of my original analogy - loose hands on the control yoke through turbulent weather.
druth Vlodovic: I do try to control them when they want to run into traffic
druth Vlodovic: but that is followed by teaching
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: there is the situation, and all you can really do it try to ride the tiger or get another tiger
Storm Nordwind: Want to buy a tiger? ;-)

What aspects of your life do you control?

druth Vlodovic: do you control all aspects of your life storm?
Storm Nordwind: What is "my life"? Perhaps it is a very small compass indeed. Perhaps only the way I approach things and react to things? In which case, the answer would be yes.
Storm Nordwind: But control of that small compass is not really control. For that implies separation again. For me it is simply "Being".
druth Vlodovic: lol, reminds me about a joke about "zen archery"
Storm Nordwind smiles and listens
druth Vlodovic: "fir the arrow and declare whatever you hit to be the target."
Storm Nordwind: That works, certainly!
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: this is different because people typically feather their arrows
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: but the arrow doesn't always land in a place you'd prefer it to be

Preferences and disappointments.

Storm Nordwind: Wherever there are preferences there are disappointments
druth Vlodovic: discarding all preferences lol
druth Vlodovic: I remember the old concept about "no preferences" in sci-fantasy books
druth Vlodovic: "happiness,suffering,in the end there really is no difference"
Storm Nordwind: That depends on whether you have the strength of non-attachment.

Non-attachment is a strength.
 

druth Vlodovic: is non-attachment a strength?
Storm Nordwind: Well druth, let me turn that around... Is suffering a strength?
Catrinamonblue Resident: it can be
druth Vlodovic: the willingness to end suffering I'd call a strength
druth Vlodovic: the willingness to endure suffering is only a strength when there is no alternative, otherwise it is a weakness
Catrinamonblue Resident: what we suffer can make us stronger, change us
Storm Nordwind: Non-attachment is a sure-fire way to end suffering. But excuse me. brb
Catrinamonblue Resident: k

Allowing unnecessary suffering?

druth Vlodovic: non-attachment also seems a way to allow unnecessary suffering
druth Vlodovic: depends if the suffering is "first arrow" (caused by outside factors) or "second arrow" (caused by our own reactions to it)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I don't think I could ever be attachment free
Catrinamonblue Resident: I ove you too much to let you go :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: love*
druth Vlodovic: Yoda would be disappointed with you :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol
Storm Nordwind: How does non-attachment allow unnecessary suffering?!
druth Vlodovic: by potentially reducing the perceived need to do something about it
Storm Nordwind: What has that got to do with attachment?
druth Vlodovic: it has to do with certain approaches to it

Not-attached does not mean indifferent.

druth Vlodovic: unattached one thing is as good as another
druth Vlodovic: so why change anything?
Storm Nordwind: No
druth Vlodovic: please elaborate
Storm Nordwind: I prefer non-pain over pain. If I have the choice then I choose non-pain.
Storm Nordwind: That means i will change the way i live to make that happen.
Storm Nordwind: But attachment itself can bring pain. But non-attachment does not necessarily imply indifference, any more than equanimity does.

Choosing how you choose!

druth Vlodovic: isn't a preference an attachment?
Storm Nordwind: One can be attached TO a preference. Or not. It's your choice about your choices! :)
druth Vlodovic: you mean having a preference without an emotional investment in the preference?
Storm Nordwind: That is a way of describing it
Storm Nordwind: Or the, perhaps rather, the outcome of the preference
druth Vlodovic: ??
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: I would have preferred the Broncos to beat the Ravens, but I have no problem with their not doing. ;)

druth's view of emotional and intellectual attachment.

druth Vlodovic: so I have a preference to be full rather than hungry, but I'm not going to get angry about not having food?
Storm Nordwind: I don't know. Are you?
druth Vlodovic: I was asking if that is a valid example of what you are talking about
Storm Nordwind: I'm not sure whether anger is a valid response to many situations, so it may not be an example I can easily relate to.
druth Vlodovic: I'm asking if the idea of no-attachment means no emotional attachment, while still allowing intellectual attachment
Storm Nordwind: You may need to elaborate further for me. What is intellectual attachment? And how does it differ from emotional attachment?
druth Vlodovic: ok, let's look at morals for a moment
druth Vlodovic: there are really two bases for it
druth Vlodovic: conditioned response, which is emotional
druth Vlodovic: reasoned response, which is thought out
druth Vlodovic: ideally people reason through things and then condition their responses
druth Vlodovic: for instance
druth Vlodovic: passing a school bus while it's lights are flashing endangers children
druth Vlodovic: so people think this over and decide that,yes, it is wrong
druth Vlodovic: then they train their emotions to react against those who ignore this rule
druth Vlodovic: and to prevent themselves from doing it even when rushed or distracted
druth Vlodovic: if I were to divorce emotional reactions from this rulethen I might stillfollow it in reasonable circumstances, but would not feel emotionally obligated to feel guilty about breaking it

Acting instead from compassion.

Storm Nordwind: Oh that's really complicated!
druth Vlodovic: is it?
Storm Nordwind: That last sentence, for me, yes
Storm Nordwind: "Guilt" is not something in my personal emotional vocabulary.
Storm Nordwind: "Emotionally obligated" likewise
Storm Nordwind: One can act well without this
Storm Nordwind: One can act from compassion, constantly, and not have all this emotional stuff... and you'll probably find it aligns with what you call the reasoning stuff - at least most of the time!
Catrinamonblue Resident: judgment free
Storm Nordwind nods
druth Vlodovic: relying entirely on reasoning would require constantly judging and balancing factors
Storm Nordwind: Well i don't. But not necessarily anyway.
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: One can reason once. Set oneself a rule, and look out only for exceptions. I guess some people do that.
Storm Nordwind: Memory is a wonderful thing. (So they tell me!) ;)

Being compassion.

druth Vlodovic: what is your approach?
Storm Nordwind: Compassion, infused into Being. Being that compassion.
druth Vlodovic: so how do you deal with situations where people act without compassion?
Catrinamonblue Resident: by feeling compassion for them
Storm Nordwind: It may be happening all the time. :) I continue Being that compassion, as much as I can, more and more
Catrinamonblue Resident: not acting harshly with them
druth Vlodovic: acting with compassion isn't as simple as that,i can think of examples where acting harshly is the most compassionate thing
Catrinamonblue Resident: such as?
druth Vlodovic: if someone is acting in a way that harms others and seem oblivious to both the harm and to kind hints
druth Vlodovic: then the choice is to allow that person to harm themselves or to speak or act harshly in order to get the message across
Catrinamonblue Resident: kind hints are not compassionate
Catrinamonblue Resident: nor are they really attempts at honest communication
Storm Nordwind: "Harsh" is a multilevelled thing. One can be ostensibly harsh but actually to not be so would be harsher.
Storm Nordwind: One can be honest and open without being harsh or sugared

Effectiveness.

druth Vlodovic: inthe end it comes down to effectiveness versus the personal cost of acting in an effective manner
druth Vlodovic: not to mention interpretation by the person to whom you are trying to communicate :)
Storm Nordwind: Then you have to judge what is effective and what is not. I suggest compassion as a viewing point for that
Storm Nordwind: And - unless you're a conjurer or a PR executive - you really have no control over their perception, or how they want to percieve.
Catrinamonblue Resident: I have been finding for myself that learning compassion has softened my need to control
Storm Nordwind smiles

Contrl vs. Influence.

druth Vlodovic: maybe not control but you can influence it :)
Storm Nordwind: You influence whether you try to or not
Storm Nordwind: If you try and influence, can you do so without attachment to the result?
Catrinamonblue Resident: not yet maybe not ever for myself
Catrinamonblue Resident: the need for attachment is very strong in me
Storm Nordwind: It is the human condition
druth Vlodovic: after all, one can't entirely control one's environment
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: (sorry, it just got me as amusing)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: I am easily entertained
Catrinamonblue Resident: I should really get back to work here :) the boss is supposed to be in any time now :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye
Storm Nordwind: OK!
druth Vlodovic: good idea :)
Storm Nordwind: Bye. Delightful talking with you!
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: have fun cat

Seeing things clearly.

druth Vlodovic: one thing that helps is to know exactly what you hope to accomplish,and pare it down to the bare essentials
druth Vlodovic: so if the goal is to remove an irritant from one's life then understand that the goal is to reduce irritation
druth Vlodovic: not to necessarily change the thing that is irritating you
Storm Nordwind: That is not so much paring down as clear vision
Storm Nordwind: One can (1) Remove the irritation, (2) Remove yourself, (3) Put a barrier between you and the irritant, (4) apply a balm to relieve the irritation, or (5) teach yourself not to be irritated by it!
druth Vlodovic: or alter the irritation enough that you can live with it
Storm Nordwind: Indeed there are degrees of the above
druth Vlodovic: the simpler the goal,and the closer it is to you the more possibilities open up
druth Vlodovic: and often the real solution is inspired by the "probelm"'s reaction
druth Vlodovic: I've seen people get angry because they accomplished what they wanted, but not in the way they wanted to do it :)
Storm Nordwind: Attachment can bring anger too
Storm Nordwind: But it sounds like they were not previously honest with themselves about what their goal really was!
druth Vlodovic: or maybe they got caught up in trying to accomplish secondary goals,such as changing the person who was bothering them, rather than concentrating on how they themselves were being bothered
Storm Nordwind: Clear vision is clearly not always seen! ;-)
druth Vlodovic: :)
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: thanks for hosting storm
druth Vlodovic: it was fun :)
Storm Nordwind: My pleasure :)
druth Vlodovic: ttfn
Storm Nordwind waves