2013.02.10 07:00 - Others - Vulnerability

The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Catrinamonblue Resident: 's current display-name is "Catrinamonblue".
Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Bleu Oleander: hi Cat :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bleu :)
--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: 's current display-name is "Eliza".
Catrinamonblue Resident: HI Eliza
Bleu Oleander: hey Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Hello
Bleu Oleander: nice look Eliza :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: agree :)
Eliza Madrigal: thanks - playing :) my great grandmother loved polka dots but people don't seem to nowadays
Bleu Oleander: oh I do
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's lovely :)
Eliza Madrigal: so how are you both doing today?
Catrinamonblue Resident: alright
Bleu Oleander: great, glad i'm not in the NE :)
Eliza Madrigal: no kidding, quite a storm!
Bleu Oleander: quite!!
Catrinamonblue Resident: we shoveled out yesterday, Ontario had the storm on Friday :)
Bleu Oleander: have family and friends there
Bleu Oleander: big storm Cat?
Eliza Madrigal: lots of work
Catrinamonblue Resident: I have friends in PEI, waiting to hear from them
Catrinamonblue Resident: lots of shoveling yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: does 'look' beautiful
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes and Friday evening went for a walk and it was beautiful :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: street lights glittering snow
Eliza Madrigal: mmm
Bleu Oleander: freshly fallen snow is gorgeous
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Bleu Oleander: remember it well hehe
Bleu Oleander: any thoughts on a topic for this am?
Eliza Madrigal: I'd like to be able to articulate the "others" topic better, but otherwise not really
Catrinamonblue Resident: listening
Bleu Oleander: others .... as in xenophobia?
Bleu Oleander: as in our desire to separate us from them?
Eliza Madrigal: in a way, yes
Bleu Oleander: seems its been going on quite a long time :)
Eliza Madrigal: many schools of thought, philosophical and religious, etc... insist that the way to be happy is to work to make "others" happy
Eliza Madrigal: and that "other as myself" is sort of the truth beneath the distinctions
Eliza Madrigal: not that distinctions are wrong necessarily
Eliza Madrigal: I 'think' that is along the lines of what Bruce may have meant when suggesting the topic in Sun's session
Eliza Madrigal: but not sure
Bleu Oleander: ah ok
Bleu Oleander: so others as a topic might be a good one in that there are dif ways to talk about it
Eliza Madrigal: might be :)
Eliza Madrigal: some topics take longer to sort of seep in... and then show up over and over...
Eliza Madrigal: even though during the week of their discussion they may not have seemed taken up much
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: very interesting book on this topic "Us and Them" by David Berreby
Eliza Madrigal: yes?
Bleu Oleander: read it a while ago
Bleu Oleander: understanding our tribal mind is the subtitle
Eliza Madrigal: Oh! that perks my interest
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: have had many salons on the topic
Eliza Madrigal: are you familiar with andrew solomon?
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: wonder if it is a similar angle
--BELL--

Catrinamonblue Resident: I have a topic that I was thinking of suggesting at the meeting, was wondering if I could put it past you two first and see what you think?
Bleu Oleander: sure
Eliza Madrigal: sure :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Vulnerability - letting ourselves be deeply seen. living whole heartedly (to tell the story of who you are with your whole heart) with gratitude believing I am enough I am worthy letting go control Ted talk Brene Brown: The power of vulnerability http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCvms...endscreen&NR=1
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, this is a great talk
Bleu Oleander: yes have heard it a few times :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I have been watching this one over a few times and really liked it
Bertram Jacobus: hi there ladies ! ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bertram :)
Bleu Oleander: yes:)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bert
Bleu Oleander: hi Bert :)
Eliza Madrigal: certainly that it is so popular says something about a nerve she struck?
Catrinamonblue Resident: is it suitable as a topic suggestion? or should I leave it alone?
Bleu Oleander: certainly
Eliza Madrigal: certainly it is... also that there is a video is helpful for context
Bleu Oleander: bring it up at the guardian mtg
Eliza Madrigal nods
Catrinamonblue Resident: ty I will :)
Bertram Jacobus: may i ask what you are talking about ?
Eliza Madrigal: I'm not even sure about "others" if it isn't interesting for others... so there is still room too
Bleu Oleander: might be a nice balance with "others"
Bleu Oleander: ok sure
Eliza Madrigal: though, that's true
Bleu Oleander: someone else might have another suggestion too
Eliza Madrigal: Bert, Catrina suggested "the power of vulnerability" for a topic this coming week
Bertram Jacobus: oh i see ty liz :-)
Bleu Oleander: other could lead to discussions about race, prejudice etc that might be good as well
Eliza Madrigal: true
Eliza Madrigal: and defensiveness
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: big topic actually
Bleu Oleander: so many angles
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bleu Oleander: probably one of the top things we humans need to get a handle on :)
Eliza Madrigal: indeed so - often we seem to 'combat' one prejudice with another
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: and congratulate ourselves for evolvin, hah
Eliza Madrigal: evolving*
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Bleu Oleander: relates to another topic "essentialism"
Eliza Madrigal: "power of vulnerability" brings me to think of the TAO te Ching and "be like water"
Eliza Madrigal: say more please Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: bias thinking about certain kinds of people
Bleu Oleander: kinds = others
Bleu Oleander: generalizing based on categories of kinds of humans
Bleu Oleander: creates a loop
Bleu Oleander: so creates more bias
Eliza Madrigal: and yet - it doesn't seem right to neutralize everything either... fine distinctions
Bleu Oleander: soon becomes "that's just the way it's always been"
Bleu Oleander: exactly
Bleu Oleander: so a balance
Bleu Oleander: is needed
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: are there classifications people put upon you that feel oddly fitting (question for everyone) ?
Bleu Oleander: understanding is important for finding balance
Bleu Oleander: sure I think so
Bleu Oleander: when someone's idea of you matches your idea of yourself
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bertram Jacobus thinks about liz´ question but finds no answer - so far ...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: we like those peeps generally hehe
Catrinamonblue Resident: thinking too
Eliza Madrigal: yes, Bleu!
Eliza Madrigal: "she gets me"
Bleu Oleander: right hehe
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: feel drawn to those who get us
Bleu Oleander: validate our ideas of ourselves
Bleu Oleander: make us feel good about our self conclusions :)
Bertram Jacobus: i like that "i see you" from the movie "avatar" - you know it ? does it fit to the topic ?
Eliza Madrigal: or go beyond our ideas of ourselves
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes Bert :))
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Bertram Jacobus: fine ... :-)
Eliza Madrigal: what does it mean to you though Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: that somebody is empathic ?
Bertram Jacobus: that someone can feel another person ?
Catrinamonblue Resident: see the true self?
--BELL--

Bertram Jacobus: whereas - seeing is already a perfect word for that i find
Bertram Jacobus: i wouldn´t call it "true self" - i would call that the individual, may be in total ... completely ...
Eliza Madrigal: seems the same ?
Catrinamonblue Resident: some of this is so over my head :) I'm not sure I understand
Bertram Jacobus: not to me : the individual i understand as relative, the true self as so to say absolute -
Bleu Oleander: relates to essentialism?
Eliza Madrigal: yes... the essential self
Eliza Madrigal: something that doesn't change yet can wear many distinctions
Bleu Oleander: so perhaps a comforting belief that we have discovered something never-changing, a hidden truth about someone?
Eliza Madrigal: something like when someone says... "well I know their heart was right so I can forgive them their hurting me"
Catrinamonblue Resident: k
Bleu Oleander: so is that a concept about them that you have created to fit your needs?
Eliza Madrigal: maybe in some cases :)
Bleu Oleander: interesting to think about
Eliza Madrigal: when I have some idea of my own flaws and that I'm not my label as "mom, home owner, etc" then I make room for someone else to not be just that
Bleu Oleander: so categories we create for others seem to be dependent on the minds that create them perhaps?
Eliza Madrigal: I love that question
Eliza Madrigal thinks
Bleu Oleander: so self-serving in a way?
Bleu Oleander: I think a lot about these kinds of ideas
Bleu Oleander: need to be talked about more I think
Bertram Jacobus: sure. but the better cases are they where we really see others and where we can understand the unchangeble, the being, the absolute i find ...
Eliza Madrigal: so viewing them from that place, instead of from the classifications
Bleu Oleander: ah, but is there an unchangeable, an absolute?
Catrinamonblue Resident: but is there really an unchangeable being in each of us?
Bleu Oleander: snap
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bertram Jacobus: because everything is interdependent, always such things depend on everything. but we can see more or less. more or less right or wrong, obviously -
Catrinamonblue Resident: beacause they are a good person at heart?
Bleu Oleander: dependent on the context of our own minds though perhaps?
Catrinamonblue Resident: (trying hard to understand)
Eliza Madrigal: there is a line in the avudgita "let the self be filled with the Self"
Bleu Oleander: we all are Cat :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) yes
Bleu Oleander: what does that mean to you Eliza?
Bertram Jacobus: i think, that is the base of everything : the being. again - obviously - something exists. and because nothing seems to come from nothing, this situation is already since ever. so it is indenedent from what ever. it simply exists - absolute from whatever
Eliza Madrigal: what we can imagine by the absolute is still not the absolute
Eliza Madrigal: so in that sense there is a mind positing
Bleu Oleander: so how do we come to believe in concepts and categories?
Bertram Jacobus: our mind seems to have a unbounded component. so it seems to be capable even to touch the absolute ... so it is at least to me ...
Eliza Madrigal: I think sometimes we see the "next step" but no farther
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t believe into anything
Bertram Jacobus: i only consider likelihoods
Bleu Oleander: so the mind needs to create categories for it's purposes?
Bertram Jacobus: and like to use my brain, assited by the heart ... ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bertram Jacobus: my mind is only playing ...
Bleu Oleander: the heart ... interesting topic also :)
Bleu Oleander: what is meant by "the heart"?
Bertram Jacobus: emotions, feelings, love
Bleu Oleander: come from the mind?
Bertram Jacobus: the heart aspect of wisdom - besides the mind aspect
Eliza Madrigal: my thoughts on this are hard to articulate but there does seem a higher logic available that we distract ourselves from when bogged down in classifications
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think so . not everything is mind. for example mind can not taste etc ...
--BELL--

Bertram Jacobus: i meant that mind is not the cause for the so called heart elements ...
Bleu Oleander: so heart is a metaphor for empathetic feelings of the mind?
Eliza Madrigal: what would the farthest stretch of the phrase "playing as Being" mean?
Bertram Jacobus: essentially, heart in such contexts means love to me
Bleu Oleander: and what is love?
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bertram
Eliza Madrigal: other as myself perhaps
Bertram Jacobus: love is being and coming together - that is my understanding of it
Bleu Oleander: nice :)
Bleu Oleander: connecting
Bleu Oleander: theory of mind
Bertram Jacobus: yes. when it is all including, it is unity
Eliza Madrigal: so one could say connecting as in doing such, or uncovering the essential connection?
Eliza Madrigal: and both would be 'true'
Bleu Oleander: essential and true are not words I would include when talking about love
Bertram Jacobus: i guess so and i hope i understand and express things here correctly ...
Bleu Oleander: would you?
Bertram Jacobus: hi xir ! :-)
Eliza Madrigal: maybe I would... they don't seem 'not' to apply as much as any word/label could
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xiri :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Xiri
Bleu Oleander: hi Xiri :)
Xirana Oximoxi: 's current display-name is "Xirana".
Bertram Jacobus: oh. i seem to have forgotten an i ! - excuse me xiri pls ... ;o)
Bleu Oleander: I think I can find a connection with anyone in a non-essential, true way
Zen Arado: 's current display-name is "Zen".
Bertram Jacobus: zen ! :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, nice to see you Bert :)
Bleu Oleander: hiya Zen
Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure a 'person' can 'be' loving
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Zen
Eliza Madrigal: would have to give up personhood really
Zen Arado: Hi all
Eliza Madrigal: Hey Zen :)
Bleu Oleander: a person can love and in that sense be a loving person?
Eliza Madrigal: embody loving qualities... I think so... have definitely known such persons :)
Zen Arado: a desire to be loving
Zen Arado: an urge
Xirana Oximoxi: I come back...I can not see me:)
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, okay Xiri
Bleu Oleander: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: 's current display-name is "Xirana".
Zen Arado: there is an urge to give and receive love
Zen Arado: ?
Eliza Madrigal: we 'see you' Xiri
Bleu Oleander: brb
Zen Arado: why do you need a person?
Eliza Madrigal: brb have to send notice
Zen Arado: animals love and receive love
Xirana Oximoxi: now I see me:)...but slow rezzing
Bertram Jacobus: i think, we can see you xiri ...
Zen Arado: depends whether you describe a warm fuzzy feeling
Zen Arado: or doing something helpful
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Eliza Madrigal: two friends brought home puppies this weekend.... surely what one feels when looking into a puppy face is a sort of love :)
Zen Arado: 'lve' is a wam fuzzy concept anyway
Bleu Oleander: sry back
Bleu Oleander: puppy love :)
Bertram Jacobus: no need to say sry bleu !
Zen Arado: oh yes
Eliza Madrigal: :)))))
Zen Arado: puppy love
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: snap
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: though, when mothers use that phrase on young daughter who have had their hearts ripped out... it doesn't feel like it
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Zen Arado: tough love
Eliza Madrigal: :) "Oh, that was just puppy love... so many more boys out there and you're only 16"
Bertram Jacobus: steven ... hi ... :-)
Bleu Oleander: heard that once or twice :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stevie :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: hi steve :)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
stevenaia Michinaga: waves
Xirana Oximoxi: hi steve! :)
Zen Arado: fish in sea expressions
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: Hi Steve
Bleu Oleander: so perhaps we go to the guardian mtg?
Bleu Oleander: nice conversation everyone
Bleu Oleander: thank you!
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes thank you
Eliza Madrigal: thank you Bleu
Bertram Jacobus: same same bleu and all : thanxx
Eliza Madrigal: yes, come to guardians session
stevenaia Michinaga: new room :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Xirana Oximoxi: bye here..see you soon there :)