2013.02.13 07:00 - Vulnerability and Suffering

Comments by Zen Arado. The pavilion was down for a region restart so the session was held at Kira.

Ari (arisia.vita): welcome Zen
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Zen :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Eliza, Ari :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): how is the day so far?
Zen (zen.arado): grim
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): grim?!
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Ari (arisia.vita): more pab sim probs?
Zen (zen.arado): pouring rain
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bleak?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): oh
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I love that.. unless you need to go out of course
Zen (zen.arado): this happens most weeks Ari
Zen (zen.arado): it's their time for maintenance
Ari (arisia.vita): I expected it on Tuesdays
Zen (zen.arado): had to get shopping
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods... that makes the difference
Zen (zen.arado): they changed to Wednesdays
Ari (arisia.vita): well, this comfy
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I like the change really
Zen (zen.arado): it's just more work posting the logs
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but feel bad Zen doesn't have the benefit of auto-listene
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): r
Ari (arisia.vita): can't we put one on the table? :)
Zen (zen.arado): have to make sure no timestamps have crept on
GreenTea(Matcha): Mmmhh... enjoy the best green tea Yakuzza Lethecus
Ari (arisia.vita): welcome Yak
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Yaku!
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Yaku
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): hey everyone
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): downtime i suppose
Zen (zen.arado): yeh
Ari (arisia.vita): the sun rises... :)
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Sunji :)
Ari (arisia.vita): welcome
Sunshine (szavanna): °͜° smiles
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): hey sunshine
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Sun :)
Sunshine (szavanna): ty Liz °͜°
Sunshine (szavanna): hi all °͜°

Vulnerability..what is it?

Zen (zen.arado): we are all about to become vulnerable
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): oh?
Zen (zen.arado): or is it invulnerable?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I was reading Riddle's session with Bleu.... she was saying that the point of the video seemed to be that we are already vulnerable and don't acknowledge that
Zen (zen.arado): I'm too vulnerable already
Zen (zen.arado): ha I juust did
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes :) maybe it is in a societal sense?
Zen (zen.arado): staying with things seems key
Zen (zen.arado): noticing where we are too vunerable
Zen (zen.arado): what is 'vulnerable' by the way?
Ari (arisia.vita): the ability to be hurt
Zen (zen.arado): so that os ok?
Zen (zen.arado): we can't stop that
Ari (arisia.vita): it is something we learn to accept, even as we seek to eliminate it
Zen (zen.arado): unless we don't have any contact with other people
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): her point was that if we aren't authentic, we can't be authentically OK with ourselves... and to be authentic we may need to examine ways we hide our weaknesses
Sunshine (szavanna): you mean the video Liz?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes
Sunshine (szavanna): I never managed to watch all
Zen (zen.arado): I didn't watch it
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Zen (zen.arado): not sure what one it is
Zen (zen.arado): a Ted video?
Sunshine (szavanna): yes
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes the Brene Brown TED talk
Zen (zen.arado): think I watched that before
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): we actually talked about it a bit a year or so ago too
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): she has autism?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): no that is another women....
Ari (arisia.vita): is our ultimate vulnerability to death?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Temple Grandin
Zen (zen.arado): ha yes
Ari (arisia.vita): The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's little good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look Death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides. - Carl Sagan
Zen (zen.arado): reading Pema Chodron on charnel ground practice atm
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): oh?
Zen (zen.arado): in Tibet the ground is frozen over most of the year
Zen (zen.arado): so bodies are left in the open
Zen (zen.arado): some go to meditate on death in the place
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods
Sunshine (szavanna): wow
Zen (zen.arado): but it is also a practice of opening ourselves
Sunshine (szavanna): reminds me of departures
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): oh, yes Sun
Zen (zen.arado): making ourselves vulnerable in a way
Zen (zen.arado): opening to our emotions
Ari (arisia.vita): when the flower opens her petals she becomes more vulnerable, and at the same time more beautiful
Zen (zen.arado): 'in charnel-ground practice, we stay present with strong emotion only very briefly at first. The instruction is: short moments again and again. Rather than trying to endure prolonged exposure to intense feeling, we touch in for only two or three seconds, then pause and breathe gently before touching in again.
 
 Chodron, Pema (2012-10-09). Living Beautifully: with Uncertainty and Change (Kindle Locations 1602-1604). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition. '
Zen (zen.arado): nice Ari
Zen (zen.arado): does that apply to us?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): what jumps out at me is "trying to endure prolonged exposure to intense feeling"
Ari (arisia.vita): it applies to the heart as well
Zen (zen.arado): yes it might be too much for some
Zen (zen.arado): a gradual process
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): isn't aversion what one would need to stay with in a charnel ground?
Zen (zen.arado): if we are not open and vulnerable ourselves can we have compassion?
Zen (zen.arado): or empathy?
Zen (zen.arado): yes but not where you might be overwhelmed
Ari (arisia.vita): I can only speak for myself, but I could not experience compassion or empathy without vulnerability
Sunshine (szavanna): what is aversion
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): repulsion
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): like "get away from me"
Sunshine (szavanna): hmm kk ty
Zen (zen.arado): do you avoid bad feelings
Zen (zen.arado): ?
Zen (zen.arado): do I?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I try not to
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but do
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I tend to 'keep busy"
Ari (arisia.vita): do we avoid pain?
Sunshine (szavanna): you can't really avoid them I think
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): "be useful"
Zen (zen.arado): don't want to wallow in them either?
Sunshine (szavanna): they are just there
Zen (zen.arado): or look for distractions
Zen (zen.arado): like SL :)
Sunshine (szavanna): ;p
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Ari (arisia.vita): The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity, and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, and a deep loving concern. Beautiful people do not just happen." - Elisabeth Kübler-Ross
Zen (zen.arado): or eat too much
Zen (zen.arado): etc
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): sitting in meditation for 30 minutes can really bring up a lot of "charnel ground"... past losses, present fears, etc

Suffering:

Zen (zen.arado): suffering is good for us then
Zen (zen.arado): a teaching found in the bible too
Zen (zen.arado): ha yes Liz
Ari (arisia.vita): joy is also good for us, the other side of the coin
Zen (zen.arado): that's why people avoid it
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): or get up from it too early, as I did this morning
Zen (zen.arado): the refiners fire
Zen (zen.arado): or make excuses not to do it
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): came to an edge and then thought "Hm, I forgot to IM so n so last night about the such n such..."
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): got through that one but then there was the text from daughter...
Zen (zen.arado): well at least you are seeing it Liz
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that could have waited but "well what kind of mom leaves her waiting for an answer..."
Sunshine (szavanna): /me hugs mom
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so I used her, in a way... to avoid what I need to do and just sit there with it
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Zen (zen.arado): if we don't think so much about what people have said hurtfully we can bear much more
Sunshine (szavanna): is there good suffering and bad suffering?
Zen (zen.arado): the ego mind is devious
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): people always say "stop caring what others think" and I think that is unrealistic and dangerous
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): good question Sun
Zen (zen.arado): bad suffering is what we cause on urselves by magnifying pain with rumination
Zen (zen.arado): I think
Sunshine (szavanna): maybe one shouldn't call it suffering ... one could say - its a challenge
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): self-inflicted? add on?
Zen (zen.arado): suffering is always present
Zen (zen.arado): or waiting to appear
Ari (arisia.vita): good suffering makes us stronger, bad suffering makes us weaker?
Zen (zen.arado): yes Liz
Sunshine (szavanna): may be Ari
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): true Sun... challenge can be a real gift
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): struggle, too
Zen (zen.arado): bad is add-on suffering
Sunshine (szavanna): or bad suffering is when we pretend to suffer
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): interesting
Sunshine (szavanna): "I am soo unfortunate"
Zen (zen.arado): yes that is a false add-on too
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): made up suffering for entertainment
Sunshine (szavanna): feeling sorry for yourself
Zen (zen.arado): self-pity
Zen (zen.arado): lets have a pity party :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): tv encourages women to be like that... always in some drama with friends...have been noticing this
Sunshine (szavanna): yes like entertainment
Zen (zen.arado): oh yes
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): never allowed to grow out of jr high dynamics
Sunshine (szavanna): "suffery" ...like comedy lol
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :))
Zen (zen.arado): soap opera wouldn't work without conflict and suffering
Zen (zen.arado): characters + conflict = plot
Sunshine (szavanna): yes
Ari (arisia.vita): can one know joy without knowing pain?
Zen (zen.arado): they teach us
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but there is real pain there... would be wrong to belittle it too somehow, or to ridicule
Zen (zen.arado): no I don't think so
Zen (zen.arado): we need both sides of a polarity
Sunshine (szavanna): the evening news is mostly about suffering
Zen (zen.arado): no good if we don't know bad
Zen (zen.arado): oh yes ..no news is good news
Sunshine (szavanna): especially in SA
Zen (zen.arado): ah everywhere I think
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I feel it valuable in my own life to be informed but not to feed on things repetitively when I can help it
Sunshine (szavanna): yes but here its crazy - compared to Hungary
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): in the type of suffering, Sun?
Sunshine (szavanna): yes Liz
Zen (zen.arado): ok Sun
Sunshine (szavanna): lots of people die daily
Sunshine (szavanna): babies raped ...terrible things
Zen (zen.arado): in more civilized countries rhere is less physical suffering...but more psychological
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :(
Sunshine (szavanna): yes
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): this relates to charnel ground too doesn't it... that one might try to keep themselves pure from the bad news
Zen (zen.arado): we always find new ways to make ourselves suffer
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): life is a cycles of good times and bad
Zen (zen.arado): we only want the good bits
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): in bodhisattva and christianity stories the hero marches into hell unafraid, as though it is heaven
Zen (zen.arado): ever watch your cycle of moods?
Ari (arisia.vita): may I share some Shaolin wisdom?
Zen (zen.arado): of
Zen (zen.arado): sure
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): sure
Ari (arisia.vita): Disciple: I am puzzled.
 Master: That is the beginning of wisdom.
 Disciple: I have seen you laugh, and I have seen you cry.
 Master: And you do not?
 Disciple: We are taught discipline.
 Master: The purpose of discipline is to live more fully. Not less.
 Disciple: But how shall I know if my sorrow is only the echo of self pity; or my laughter the preening of my own happiness?
 Master: The bird sings in the forest. Does it seek to be admired for its song? Let tears come, when your heart tells you of its sadness. Let joy come unasked, unplanned.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me reads
Zen (zen.arado): yes nice Ari
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): really nice
Zen (zen.arado): a lot of Zen is like that
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): cry when appropriate to cry and laugh when appropriate to laugh and let go when it goes
Sunshine (szavanna): very nice Ari :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): do you ever feel that suffering comes and lifts for no personal reason... as though it just comes and one must be responsive in a wider sense?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): just some process we're part of
Zen (zen.arado): yes Liz
Zen (zen.arado): it's all a mystery
Ari (arisia.vita): perhaps there is a reason, just one we do not see?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): maybe so
Zen (zen.arado): we are just tiny parts of a giant unkowable process
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Sun do you do anything to keep yourself able to cope?
Zen (zen.arado): we are always trying to figure it out but we never will
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): in some spiritual practices, the disciplines are really hm... sort of supports to sustain the openness
Ari (arisia.vita): taking the hand of a friend always helps me cope...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): friends are definitely supports :)
Zen (zen.arado): lots of practices are merely to help us stop adding to our suffering with thoughts
Zen (zen.arado): and resisting the life process
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): helpful phrase
Zen (zen.arado): what ifd you don't have any family and you don't see friends very often?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): how not to resist life
Zen (zen.arado): and you can't go for nice walks
Zen (zen.arado): and your health is deteriorating
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): or people you can be particularly vulnerable with and know they understand and don't judge
Zen (zen.arado): you have to accept things
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): or at least the latter
Ari (arisia.vita): good question Zen, who will answer?
Sunshine (szavanna): sigh
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I think we do often 'practice' that vulnerability here
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): or openness to that anyway
Zen (zen.arado): sometimes I see someone say they are depressed and I think . but you can walk and drive a car etc'
Zen (zen.arado): what have you to be depressed about?
Zen (zen.arado): that is called 'envy of the well'
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods... that is really understandable Zen
Sunshine (szavanna): so true Zen
Zen (zen.arado): but there is a point there
Zen (zen.arado): that we don't appreciate what we have
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I stomp my foot sometimes ... it feeling sort of unfair when people get to be upset over little things at times when I feel I'm juggling more
Zen (zen.arado): I feel good atm
Zen (zen.arado): ha yes Liz
Sunshine (szavanna): my mom took her life ..what could have been the problem
Sunshine (szavanna): I keep wondering
Zen (zen.arado): where do we get that idea that life should be fair form?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): coping perhaps, Sun
Sunshine (szavanna): yes
Zen (zen.arado): some rich people take their lives because they get bored with it
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): needing vision perhaps, not sure
Zen (zen.arado): amazing
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ennui can bring the most despair
Sunshine (szavanna): I think it was a gradual process
Sunshine (szavanna): it just got too much to handle after years
Sunshine (szavanna): and also her friend did the same a year before
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Oh :(
Zen (zen.arado): was her health bad ?
Sunshine (szavanna): no
Sunshine (szavanna): she had no serious probs
Zen (zen.arado): depression?
Sunshine (szavanna): yes
Sunshine (szavanna): it was even a sort of fashion those days to be depressed
Zen (zen.arado): depression is a big killer
Sunshine (szavanna): many poets at the time died like that also
Sunshine (szavanna): and my mom loved those poets hmm
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): poets might be called 'seers"
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): willing to face things
Zen (zen.arado): I've gone off poetry
Sunshine (szavanna): and here in africa ....very hard things happen
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but maybe not having coping skills... buffers
Sunshine (szavanna): and people dance
Zen (zen.arado): after my tutor tore my poems to shreds :)
Sunshine (szavanna): what?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): oh Zen :( grr
Sunshine (szavanna): why ? grrrgrgrrrr
Zen (zen.arado): becaus ehtye aren't very good :)
Sunshine (szavanna): that not nice
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well the teacher was the one emphasizing rules so much
Ari (arisia.vita): ah, but they are
Zen (zen.arado): no she is right
Sunshine (szavanna): but even if they are not - why is that a problem
Ari (arisia.vita): you just have to know how to find the beauty in them
Sunshine (szavanna): art is there to be enjoyed
Zen (zen.arado): heh better to remain ignorant of our lack of talent maybe
Sunshine (szavanna): in my view
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): unless you submitted them with "these are the best ever anywhere"
Sunshine (szavanna): hehe
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me smiles
Zen (zen.arado): heh not likely

Faith:

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): this conversation makes me want to talk about faith somehow
Sunshine (szavanna): /me listens
Zen (zen.arado): faith?
Ari (arisia.vita): pls do Liz
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): faith not in a religion or philosophy really... but hm...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): "shradda"
Sunshine (szavanna): runs to google
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): it seems to be what people lean on in their darkest moments
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and in some teachings is used to describe a relationship with a guru actually
Zen (zen.arado): read a poem like that lately
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so it is complex
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): 'Shraddha' in a Sanskrit word which has no equivalent in English, at best it can be understood as faith with love and reverence.
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): (wiki)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): seems a source of courage
Sunshine (szavanna): ty Liz
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): some devotion there
Sunshine (szavanna): there is a way people go beyond the problems in SA
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me listens
Sunshine (szavanna): you know .... people do crazy things .... they forgive their loved ones killers
Sunshine (szavanna): there seems to be such strength of goodness
Sunshine (szavanna): you know ...just going beyond the usual
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ah... tapping into that... faith in goodness
Sunshine (szavanna): forgiving terrible things that happened during apartheid
Zen (zen.arado): forgiveness is impressive
Sunshine (szavanna): its unbelievable
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): do you think this is due to seeing people as connected more? tribal notions?

Forgiveness:

Ari (arisia.vita): Disciple: He betrayed us. Yet we feed and clothe him.
 Master: I am aware of his unsavory adventures. I am aware also of his hunger and cold. Will the earth fall away from under his feet? Will the sun, shining on all else, refuse him light? If sun and earth and water refrain from judgment, who am I to withhold a blanket and a bowl of rice?
Zen (zen.arado): it happened here in N.Ireland too
Zen (zen.arado): a man forgave the killers of his daughter in a bomb
Sunshine (szavanna): :) Ari
Zen (zen.arado): How many times should we forgive?
Sunshine (szavanna): it happens in cases where people live in tough circumstances
Sunshine (szavanna): during war
Zen (zen.arado): 7 times 7
Ari (arisia.vita): how many times can we be hurt?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): 70 times 7
Zen (zen.arado): I forget
Zen (zen.arado): big theme with Jesus
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well both are right...both were in the dialog
Sunshine (szavanna): what is that Liz - 70 times 7
Zen (zen.arado): deciples asked Jsesu that question
Zen (zen.arado): Jesus
Zen (zen.arado): the question shows calculating mind
Zen (zen.arado): as if a number could be put on it
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): indeed, quantifying mind
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so Jesus stretched them by saying, no not 7 x 7 as you've been taught but 70 x 7
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): it is like the impossible vows of buddhism
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): whispers: "save all beings?"
Ari (arisia.vita): rl calls...it was great being with you all...I leave you with these words...
Ari (arisia.vita): Master: Vengeance is a water vessel with a hole. It carries nothing but the promise of emptiness.
 Disciple: Shall I then repay injury always with kindness?
 Master: Repay injury with justice and forgiveness, but kindness always with kindness.
Sunshine (szavanna): hugs Ari take care :)
Zen (zen.arado): thanks Ari
Ari (arisia.vita): see you all soon
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): thank you ari
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bye Ari, tc
Zen (zen.arado): 'Forgive them, they knwo not what they do'
Zen (zen.arado): (or how to type)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): "we're all in ignorance" - vulnerable
Sunshine (szavanna): ;p
Sunshine (szavanna): ( Zenji is so funny °͜°
Zen (zen.arado): ignorance makes us vulnerable
Zen (zen.arado): knowledge doesn't
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): lacking knowledge about what we don't know
Sunshine (szavanna): I have a puppy ...he is small and vulnerable
Zen (zen.arado): 'love builds up, knowledge puffs up'
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): he is well situated with you Sun :)
Sunshine (szavanna): ;o)
Zen (zen.arado): :)

Dream story:

Eliza (eliza.madrigal): may I share a dream story?
Zen (zen.arado): sure
Sunshine (szavanna): listens
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): /me listens too
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): my good friend's family dog passed away around Christmas time.., was hard for them...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): little kids in the house who loved "Lucky"
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): he really was a very cool dog... and quite spoiled... or well tended we could say
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and suddenly had seizures that wouldn't stop :(
Sunshine (szavanna): ;(
Zen (zen.arado): like mine :(
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Oh ((((Zen)))
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me feels thankful for you
Sunshine (szavanna): ;((((
Zen (zen.arado): my dog I mean
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): thats what happened?
Zen (zen.arado): yes but go on
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): what kind of dog? Lucky was a golden retriever
Zen (zen.arado): a border collie mongrel
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): aw... great dogs
Sunshine (szavanna): I saw the pic
Sunshine (szavanna): very cute doggie
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so, okay ... a week later she had two dreams.... the first was a kind of ritualistic dream...a validation of her own healing in a way...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and the next one a woman came to her with Lucky...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and he was sparkly and happy
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and the women sort of interpreted for the dog..
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): how my friend had taken such good care of him
Zen (zen.arado): Hi Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Guys
Sunshine (szavanna): hi Mick °͜°
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): hey mick
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): you walked in on a dream story Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: nice
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): the thing is... she was able to rest after that because she knew she had hm, sort of fulfilled her role in his life
Zen (zen.arado): a nice story
Zen (zen.arado): I often dream fo my dof though he is dead 8 years
Zen (zen.arado): dog
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that's why I'm afraid of getting a dog
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Mickorod Renard: I have a dog due to die soon
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): my son would really love one and when we move I may try
Zen (zen.arado): don't give your heart to a dog they say
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): aw Mick
Mickorod Renard: he is 12 and a half
Mickorod Renard: my dog has been a pain in the rear for 10 years
Zen (zen.arado): bet you will miss him though
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Mickorod Renard: yes, true
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): there is no reasonableness to love, lol
Mickorod Renard: he is here now,,stinks cos he has just roiled in fox poo
Zen (zen.arado): :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Mickorod Renard: how I have managed to not murder him I dont know
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Sunshine just got a puppy, so I was thinking of what a well tended to dog he will be
Zen (zen.arado): they do have unfortunate habits
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me giggles... very politely said Zen
Zen (zen.arado): puppies go through a chewing phase
Zen (zen.arado): mine used to fight other male dogs if he got half a chance
Mickorod Renard: mine will still
Zen (zen.arado): and didn't like ayone near me
Sunshine (szavanna): °͜°
Zen (zen.arado): very protective
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): protective or jealous?
Zen (zen.arado): don't know
Zen (zen.arado): he was a one man dog
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Mickorod Renard: I am looking forward to the day mine oasses to another life,,more fortuitous hopefully
Sunshine (szavanna): one man dog hehe
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): not polyownerous
Sunshine (szavanna): hehe
Zen (zen.arado): ha great word Liz
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me giggles
Sunshine (szavanna): ;p
Zen (zen.arado): a monownerous dog
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hana was talking about a monk friend saying prayers as a little bird on her balcony died...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): she felt so powerless, yet just as the bird died, the prayers were ended
Zen (zen.arado): nice
Sunshine (szavanna): sigh
Zen (zen.arado): I read somewhere that sparrows die with cold and just drop off the branch they were on
Zen (zen.arado): no fuss
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Zen (zen.arado): that's vulnerability
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): or practicality
Mickorod Renard: makes one wonder what is after life,,whether there is another or not
Zen (zen.arado): going with the flow
Zen (zen.arado): not resisting
Zen (zen.arado): the way it is..
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): many lives are going on in just this one
Zen (zen.arado): a good lesson for us
Mickorod Renard: like a snow flake melting
Zen (zen.arado): nature isn't fair
Mickorod Renard: I do wonder about the lesson
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): what do you wonder?
Zen (zen.arado): a lesson in acceptance maybe?
Mickorod Renard: I wonder why,,the more one should love this life would in a way make it more dificult to let go
Mickorod Renard: thus creating more attachment than less
Zen (zen.arado): 'love this life' kinda points to clinging though?
Sunshine (szavanna): hmm
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): maybe not if one realized nothing would be fundamentally lost, somehow
Sunshine (szavanna): yay yes °͜°
Mickorod Renard: that is a point Liz
Zen (zen.arado): yes Liz
Sunshine (szavanna): there must be a way hmmm scratches head
Zen (zen.arado): we are so self important
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well, the whole thing is sort of hard to figure out :P
Mickorod Renard: :)
Zen (zen.arado): impossible even
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): then why are we born compelled to try? like salmon?
Zen (zen.arado): mabe it is ok just playing with words and concepts though
Zen (zen.arado): our nature as humans with our big brains
Sunshine (szavanna): its not really the end result that matters ...but the play proces
Sunshine (szavanna): +s
Zen (zen.arado): yes maybe Sun
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :))
Sunshine (szavanna): the jazz mind :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hey, groovy
Sunshine (szavanna): °͜°

Rebirth:

Mickorod Renard: it makes me think of a moment in time i fear i departed..the white tunnel,,there was something very nice about it,,yet I came back
Sunshine (szavanna): wow
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): by choice?
Sunshine (szavanna): how did it happen?
Mickorod Renard: should we di,,and enjoy some wonderment,,why or what would compell us to become reincarnated
Mickorod Renard: its hard to know if i chose to come back,,I felt I was drawn back
Zen (zen.arado): that idea never made sense to me
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): has to do with type of mind
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and in a way that is happening all the time even now
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): we're always incarnating in some sense
Zen (zen.arado): we are being reborn every second
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods
Zen (zen.arado): always changing
Mickorod Renard: sure,,but we cling to what we know,,repulse the unknown
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): at least that's part of the teaching - but I do feel to experience that if I slow and see
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Interesting you use that word Mick as it came up earlier when we were talking about learning to 'stay' with difficulty
Zen (zen.arado): my thoughts create a static version of me
Zen (zen.arado): but there isn't one really
Sunshine (szavanna): hmm interesting Zenji
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me considers
Sunshine (szavanna): like a 3D printer
Sunshine (szavanna): prints out a Zenji
Sunshine (szavanna): ;o)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me smiles
Zen (zen.arado): Zen version 10,00001
Sunshine (szavanna): and no changing from that Zenji
Sunshine (szavanna): ;D
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hahaha
Sunshine (szavanna): but we don't allow for Zen version 10,00002
Zen (zen.arado): thoughts are still with version 1
Zen (zen.arado): like SL viewer 1
Sunshine (szavanna): °͜°
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): love this
Zen (zen.arado): that people stick with
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): whispers: so new zen is in mesh but no one can see him?
Sunshine (szavanna): we should regularly update our RL viewers
Zen (zen.arado): his code has changed
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me giggles
Sunshine (szavanna): ;p
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): this is why we need open sharing so we can all keep up
Sunshine (szavanna): yes ;o) agrees
Zen (zen.arado): he is in a different at LL
Zen (zen.arado): place
Mickorod Renard: does anyone here do anything relating to a dharma wheel?
Zen (zen.arado): different server
Zen (zen.arado): do anything?
Mickorod Renard: use the concept?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hm, I don't Mick.. do you mean in the sense of a mandala?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): or wheel of life?
Zen (zen.arado): it just keeps turning as far as I know
Sunshine (szavanna): ;o)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): what interests you Mick?
Mickorod Renard: the eightfold path
Mickorod Renard: sorry, putting wood on fire at same time
Zen (zen.arado): I usesd to know a lot about that stuff
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I'd love to hear..
Zen (zen.arado): dependent origination
Zen (zen.arado): forgotten now
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods - I found this amazing to learn about and still do
Mickorod Renard: I thought you had Eliza
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well specifically with a wheel I'm not sure I understood what you were asking
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I'm familiar with the imagery
Mickorod Renard: or at least the 4 noble truths
Zen (zen.arado): Darryl Bailey wrote a short book about Buddhism the essence of it
Zen (zen.arado): I must buy it
Zen (zen.arado): the five aggregates
Mickorod Renard: sounds concrete stuff Zen
Zen (zen.arado): nobody ever seems to have heard of 5 aggregates
Mickorod Renard: :)
Zen (zen.arado): point is they are all empty of self
Zen (zen.arado): form, feeling, perception, volition, consciousness
Mickorod Renard: but the point of the exercise of emptying oneself is to end reincarnation
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): with the rising of a, b arises, with the receding of b, b recedes
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): *a (at the end)
Zen (zen.arado): not sure the Buddha preached reincarnation
Zen (zen.arado): it is mostly found in Tibetan Buddhism
Zen (zen.arado): not in Zen
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yet Zen has stories
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): like with the fox :)
Sunshine (szavanna): I must go ty for the great chat °͜°
Zen (zen.arado): ah yes but koans
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bye Sunshine <3
Sunshine (szavanna): hugs :))
Zen (zen.arado): byee Sunji :)
Sunshine (szavanna): ♥
Mickorod Renard: bye szav
Zen (zen.arado): ty for coming
Sunshine (szavanna): see you soon
Zen (zen.arado): I should go too
Mickorod Renard: me too,,perhaps
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): there is an advaita strategy of "neti neti"....
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Zen (zen.arado): nothingness?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): or way of thinking perhaps - where one examines each 'part' and asks themselves something like, is this the self?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that is a very bad explanation but relates to both dependent co-arising and aggregates
Zen (zen.arado): I have a book by the Dalai Lama with exercises for seeing through the illusion of self
Zen (zen.arado): the point is if you look for it it can't be found
Zen (zen.arado): but I am getting on my hobby horse again ;)
Mickorod Renard: the funny thing is,,the exercise will take a lifetime (still worth it) but therefore it should have a purpose beyond that lifetime, i would have thought
Zen (zen.arado): but no self, what is there to be reborn?
Mickorod Renard: thats the point Zen
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): in buddhism there are "six classes of beings" [teaching I've been processing-not authority on subject - Eliza]
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and if one pays attention to themselves they can see ways perhaps, in which they are using a mind like one of those beings...
Zen (zen.arado): there was an iteresting section in a book about that where the author interviews two Tibetan Buddhists about their views on rebirth
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): like when in "hungry ghost mode"
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): in reincarnation the idea is that if one is in that mode of mind when making the transition, that's their priimary realm of rebirth
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but it is also true on a day to day basis
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): how habits are formed and perpetuated
Zen (zen.arado): to me those are myths that point to some truths about how we live
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I like that way of looking at them too, yet also take them quite seriously
Mickorod Renard: I would tend to think that way too zen
Zen (zen.arado): but Tibetan Buddhism has lots of add-ons I think
Zen (zen.arado): accretions over the years
Mickorod Renard: all is food for healthy living
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I see it in myself as a practical matter and when seeing, can step out of it
Zen (zen.arado): and Theravadin Buddhism too
Zen (zen.arado): but what do I know?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I just see these as ways of approach
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): to understanding a much higher logic
Zen (zen.arado): oh yes the hungry ghost metaphor explains how we live often
Zen (zen.arado): I am a hungry ghost for books sometimes
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): they take in more and more yet can't be satisfied
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): especially with Kindle
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): ah, but i don´t think books count in that :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): lol
Mickorod Renard: I like to have an objective
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): i guess more basic needs
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): hungry ghosts have lots of justifications, lol
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): "self improvement"
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): it isn't what it is that is being gathered but how?
Zen (zen.arado): we want more than we need is basic teaching I guess
Mickorod Renard: and should we ask for why?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): are we appreciating what we take in, able to process it
Zen (zen.arado): exactly
Mickorod Renard: in much teaching, ie buddhism,,there is an emphsis on wisdom and wise
Zen (zen.arado): but too much teaching can be bad
Yaku (yakuzza.lethecus): i will log out, thx everyone!
Mickorod Renard: and yet we feel we dont need to ask why?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): So good to see you yaku
Zen (zen.arado): once you see it you don't have to keep mind spinning
Mickorod Renard: bye yaku
Zen (zen.arado): spirituality can be like an addiction too
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes
Zen (zen.arado): bye Yaku
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I've felt for the last few years that I need to be hooked up to an IV of teachings all the time
Zen (zen.arado): me too
Mickorod Renard: mmmm,,I share that too Eliza
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): reconditioning in a way, but also because there is this capacity that should be honored
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but then sometimes I ask what I am actually LIVING
Zen (zen.arado): direct experience is it
Mickorod Renard: one can have rich experience by doing wrong things too
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and think "hm, if I just stop maybe have to draw upon what's there... " like when down to basics in the fridge
Zen (zen.arado): seeing what is going on in our lives
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): testing limits Mick?
Zen (zen.arado): and how we react to that
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods
Mickorod Renard: me? noooo
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me laughs
Zen (zen.arado): what is 'wrong'?
Mickorod Renard: I am a practical person..its wierd to spend so much time without a clear objective
Zen (zen.arado): Darryl Bailey has a talk entitled 'which snowflake is doing it wrong?'
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Mickorod Renard: being nice to people is great,,being nice for myself has a tang of selfishness
Zen (zen.arado): you can tangle yourself up in mental knots
Mickorod Renard: but in the end I want to feel I have done something in the right direction
Zen (zen.arado): did it for years in philosophy
Zen (zen.arado): maybe yu have an illusion that ther is a 'right direction'
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): how do you feel when you look at your current trajectory Mick? not ahead but from whence you've come?
Mickorod Renard: yes for sure Zen,,more questions,,not more answers
Zen (zen.arado): life isn't mappable
Zen (zen.arado): we have to 'play life by ear' I think
Mickorod Renard: perhaps more perceptual Eliza..not fundementally a better person
Zen (zen.arado): it doesn't fit into our shcemes
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so maybe a "better person" isn't the deepest aim?
Zen (zen.arado): nope
Zen (zen.arado): we will be whatever we will be
Mickorod Renard: in a selfish way,,I think I would like to be at peace inside my head
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): why do you think that's selfish?
Zen (zen.arado): peace is accepting the chaos though
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): seems a gift to give to someone.. peaceful presence
Mickorod Renard: yes I see that Zen,,but its a funny thing,,one likes to bring less chaos to those in chaos
Zen (zen.arado): we can try
Zen (zen.arado): if it works we say we controlled it
Mickorod Renard: the more one is sensitive to others plight,,the more one feels that pain
Zen (zen.arado): if you felt it too much you would go mad
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): what about the idea of offering it up
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): giving it over... not bearing it with your "self"
Mickorod Renard: I used to do that,,it worked well,,if a bit wierd
Zen (zen.arado): perhaps we are protected by our selfishness
Mickorod Renard: at one time i felt like a conduit,,but always passed the pain through and away
Zen (zen.arado): the Dalai Lama shows people compassion ..but then he moves to the next person
Zen (zen.arado): like a doctor
Zen (zen.arado): we are limited conduits
Mickorod Renard: nice zen
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so there is a dropping of sentimentality while keeping responsiveness and availability...
Zen (zen.arado): yes
Zen (zen.arado): well put Liz
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): it sort of helps me, to think "I can't handle this but what I am in a larger sense can" - something similar to something Stim said once
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and then turn off the small fixer and hand it over
Mickorod Renard: mmm
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but I have to stay on the cushion longer, lol
Mickorod Renard: there was something in that dream I had ages ago
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me listens
Mickorod Renard: the one where I was some wierd chinese begger type
Zen (zen.arado): I have to go make my dinner
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) long session Zen
Mickorod Renard: and helped push a rich person who was rude agcross some flooded part of london
Zen (zen.arado): I will leave avatar here to get conversation
Zen (zen.arado): byee ;)
Mickorod Renard: bye Zen
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): bye Zen, or I could send it to you via email
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: anyway, I wont do that dream again,,but there was something comprehensibel to me in it
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): what was that exactly, can you say?
Mickorod Renard: just on the fringe
Mickorod Renard: what?
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): what was the comprehensible 'something' that you gleaned from it
Mickorod Renard: the comprehensible thing?
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes
Mickorod Renard: ahh
Mickorod Renard: ok
Mickorod Renard: iblemt was more to do with the problem or pain stays with the one creating the pro
Mickorod Renard: lem
Mickorod Renard: does that make sense,,typos
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): each with own unique karma / dharma/ and responsibility for such?
Mickorod Renard: maybe i need to type again
Mickorod Renard: well,,if one see's an issue,,help and feel compassion,,regardles of attitude,,and feel some sadness for thier plight,,but not see your own effort to help as personal pain
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): how subtle...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): the reaching and 'neediness' to help?
Mickorod Renard: the mudlark dream
Mickorod Renard: old hat now
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I do remember this dream, though it has been a while since reading it
Mickorod Renard: mm
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): would you elaborate a little more?
Mickorod Renard: it stays with me because I need to grasp the meaning in full
Mickorod Renard: well..the reason people act the way they do is often more complex than we are privy to,,as such our help to them may or may not seem justifyable but that is not our concern,,the bigger reason is perhaps shrouded and we shouldnt deny our help to anyone for that is special
Mickorod Renard: hard to put in words
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): that trying to grasp causes misses the point?
Mickorod Renard: maybe
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): I think that's eloquent, and along with remembering the dream more fully now there are so many facets
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): what about the idea that you are all those characters?
Mickorod Renard: why question what one finds natural, just because others are not compassionate
Mickorod Renard: I think I may be all those characters
Mickorod Renard: its hard to stay on track
Mickorod Renard: and at times you can break
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): it seems like an integrative message
Mickorod Renard: I know I have complained like an ass at a supermarket over a trivial issue,,afterwards I have felt so bad that the person I ccomplained to may have had a bad nights sleep cos of me
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): you are accepting the man in all his faults and flaws, while not ignoring the sadness/wrongness of the situation or the attitude or pride he carries
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me nods....we all have Mick
Mickorod Renard: so there is a reason for everything
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): you know.... I haven't talked about it much but something similar happened with me recently
Mickorod Renard: one can feel bad, personally attacked,,everything,,but its better to just feel compassion
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): where I was angry with someone - and finally admitted I was angry and even dealing with hatred (which was hard as I like to think of myself as not doing that :P) and when I did, I saw that the anger stretched back way farther than I'd known them
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): so it could never have been about them
Mickorod Renard: yes, I can relate with you there Eliza
Mickorod Renard: I wonder sometimes,,balance is all,,yet if one is nice most of the time,,the bad has to emerge from somewhere eventually
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): or does it... that's a real question for me
Mickorod Renard: to be expunged
Mickorod Renard: well,,the bad perhaps can be converted inbto something positive,,but that is maybe where we slip up
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): well in this case when I saw this, over the course of a few days, there came a major spaciousness and nothing 'else' to fill its place
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): and I kept thinking... any second I will be on to the next thing...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): but really it just subsided, for now
Mickorod Renard: mmm
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): maybe it can be that way with more than we realize
Mickorod Renard: yes
Mickorod Renard: I also have something of a memory
Mickorod Renard: but that too is a torment,,I remember everything I have done that is bad
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): Hi Visitor, feel free to join us
Visitor: si
Mickorod Renard: Hi Higo,,I have to go now,,as I am flat battery
Visitor: ri eliza
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): yes Mick... it is a lovely quality and yet a difficult one
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): (((Mick))))
Mickorod Renard: :))
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): nice to talk longer with you - has been a while
Mickorod Renard: will catch you again soon
Visitor: no compriendo eu do bresil
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): OK, bfn
Mickorod Renard: yes, thankyou Eliza
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): ah, Visitor, mi espanol es muy mal...
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): pero yo aprendiendo
Visitor: ok so etou de pasagem
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): portugesa?
Visitor: bay
Visitor: dddddddd
Mickorod Renard: nice lingo Liz
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :) hah... no it is very bad
Visitor: bayyyy
Mickorod Renard: see u soon,,bye
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): /me waves warmly Mick, and Zen too