2013.02.24 13:00 - Black robes are best

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Catrinamonblue Resident: 's current display-name is "Catrinamonblue".
Bruce Mowbray: 's current display-name is "Bruce".
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Cat.
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks for being here
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Aph how did your morning at the Zen centre go?
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce! Very well thanks Cat.
Aphrodite Macbain: I just walked in the door
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully...
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes do tell us Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: 2 hours of listening to a teacher talk about Zen and meditation;
Aphrodite Macbain: 30 minutes of meditating and being with the rest of the group
Aphrodite Macbain: 20 minutes of cleaning!
Catrinamonblue Resident: cleaning?
Bruce Mowbray: They had you cleaning the Zen center????
Aphrodite Macbain: I didn't stay for tea and socializing
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- part of what you do
Bruce Mowbray: I have a self-cleaning house.
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe they could get a self-cleaning Zen center.
Aphrodite Macbain: I washed the floors and ironed the robes
Bruce Mowbray: wow.
Aphrodite Macbain: It's part of being part of the sangha
Catrinamonblue Resident: cool

Aphrodite Macbain: is that the balloon you designed Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: I remember making candles -- out of reified butter - for the meditation center in Columbus...
Bruce Mowbray: many years ago.
Bruce Mowbray: Nope, I think Xir made it... because she gave it to me.
Aphrodite Macbain: butter candles! They must have melted easily
Bruce Mowbray: I can give them to both of you if you don't have them yet.
Aphrodite Macbain: no thanks Bruce: I already have too many candles!
Bruce Mowbray: Not the candles -- the balloon.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: 's current display-name is "Eliza".
Aphrodite Macbain: lol oh !
Bruce Mowbray: Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: Hello ^.^ (can't seem to find the door out of SL today)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Eliza
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Eliza:)
Bruce Mowbray: Do you also need a balloon, Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: I do need that
Bruce Mowbray: kk. I will give you one.
Eliza Madrigal: thanks! I have a t-shirt though
Bruce Mowbray: I don't yet have a t-shirt.
Eliza Madrigal: I will give you one :)

Aphrodite Macbain: how did the meeting go this a.m.?
Bruce Mowbray: The guardians’ mtg was very good.
Aphrodite Macbain: many decisions?
Bruce Mowbray: Pema told us of his new project (in RL) to find life on planets ...
Bruce Mowbray: fascinating!
Eliza Madrigal nods... and there are some new anniversary angles

Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Wol!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Wol
Wol Euler: evening all
Bruce Mowbray: Do you have a balloon yet, Wol?
Aphrodite Macbain: sorry I missed that. I thought that he was looking at meteors
Wol Euler: dunno
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, druth!
Eliza Madrigal: new work is with signs of life
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Druth
Bruce Mowbray: Hey druth, do you want a balloon?
druth Vlodovic: hey guys
druth Vlodovic: sure
Aphrodite Macbain: hiya druth :-)
Bruce Mowbray: There you go!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hey Wol
Wol Euler: hello aph, druth, bruce, cat, eliza
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Wol!

Eliza Madrigal: the guardians session is long Aph and I recommend reading it when you have a chance
Eliza Madrigal: how did your meeting go at the Zen Center?
Bruce Mowbray feels peer pressure mounting....
Aphrodite Macbain: OK I will. thanks
Aphrodite Macbain: It went well Eliza-but I'm exhausted now
Eliza Madrigal: topic not yet posted is "love as relates to Being"
Bruce Mowbray: They had her cleaning the floors and ironing the robes.
druth Vlodovic: I prefer blanket pressure usually, but peer pressure can be fun too
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, okay... look forward to hearing when you are lively ^^
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray has his peer pressure knobs turned to their lowest setting.
Eliza Madrigal: if you choose your peers well then not such a bad thing
druth Vlodovic: I prefer to adjust my peer pressure knobs by individual
Bruce Mowbray looks around and thinks: 'How could I find better peers than these folks?' --NO way!
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: when i have it turned right low some people get right uppity on me :)
Eliza Madrigal peers at Bruce
Bruce Mowbray also looks around for a better spell checker.
Catrinamonblue Resident: sends squishy hugs to Bruce in thanks
Wol Euler: heheheh
Bruce Mowbray: (((Cat!)))
--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: I talked for 2 hours with the teacher who gave me a brief synopsis of Zen
druth Vlodovic: "brief" in two hours?
druth Vlodovic: sigh
druth Vlodovic: nothing is worth knowing if it takes more than ten minutes to explain
Eliza Madrigal: everything takes more than ten minute to explain
Aphrodite Macbain: thank you for that druth :/
Bruce Mowbray ponders sound-bite philosophical discourse... (and drops...)
Aphrodite Macbain: It was odd to be a girl among about 15 boys.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh wow.
druth Vlodovic: lots of prospects
Eliza Madrigal: hm
Wol Euler: odd indeed, why the imbalance?
Catrinamonblue Resident: ;)
Aphrodite Macbain: apparently this is normal. Usually about 2/3 men
Bruce Mowbray wonders if Zen would be something that would appeal more to males, and why....
Aphrodite Macbain: lol druth
Eliza Madrigal nods... even when I was attending Tibetan group I was often only girl
druth Vlodovic: no talking
Aphrodite Macbain: there is a discipline..
Wol Euler: this surprises me greatly.
Aphrodite Macbain: and a ritual
Wol Euler listens.
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhhh!
Aphrodite Macbain: I can’t explain it though
Bruce Mowbray: So, no talking plus ritual. . . .
Aphrodite Macbain: I really don’t know Bruce
druth Vlodovic: "sit down and shut up" :)
Eliza Madrigal: my theory is that traditional zen practice is more male, because of the one thing at a time emphasis
Catrinamonblue Resident: alright boys enough of that :)
Aphrodite Macbain: they were all ages- from about 20-65
Bruce Mowbray: I've also noticed that a lot of "regular clergy" are males -- although in US seminaries the gals outnumber the men by a large number... (which I feel is GREAT!)
Aphrodite Macbain: more linear you mean Eliza?
Wol Euler: heheheh
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol
Wol Euler: less able to multi-task
Wol Euler grins.
Eliza Madrigal: in a way, yes, or less permissive of multitasking as valuable
Wol Euler: ah
druth Vlodovic: actually I was reading a web page by a guy who was taking hormones,and that was one thing he mentioned
Aphrodite Macbain: my teacher emphasized the strong difference between eastern and western Zen
druth Vlodovic: sacrificing attention for multitasking
Eliza Madrigal: interesting
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
druth Vlodovic: what is the difference?
Aphrodite Macbain: eastern zen is more analytical, logical
Aphrodite Macbain: western zen is cozier, warmer
Bruce Mowbray: Do you feel that this person is your teacher, Aph? --- a personal question, and I apologize if it's too private.
Aphrodite Macbain: eastern zen stress no-self
Aphrodite Macbain: western zen stresses larger self
Wol Euler: ?
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm.
Bruce Mowbray turns up "Larger Self" knob.
Aphrodite Macbain: he told me I should work on making myself bigger, not smaller
Eliza Madrigal: big mind
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh! GOODBYE, diet!!
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- including more of the world in me
Eliza Madrigal giggles @ Bruce
Catrinamonblue Resident: sounds really good Aph
Wol Euler: self in context of the world?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bruce Mowbray: sry. . . ducks head and looks at fountain.
Wol Euler: ty
Eliza Madrigal: inclusive awareness, nice
Aphrodite Macbain: he said it was foolish to try and eliminate the I, the ego, the self
druth Vlodovic: no-self is good for removing a person's power, an emphasis of anything that has been around a long time
druth Vlodovic: larger self is likely closer to the original purpose
Aphrodite Macbain: and rather to connect myself to the larger world around me
Bruce Mowbray agrees with Aph's "teacher" on that one.
Eliza Madrigal nods... think there is a gap in the east/west understanding of no self
Aphrodite Macbain: I felt comfortable with that
Aphrodite Macbain: yes eliza, apparently there is
Aphrodite Macbain: I have watched our Zen struggle with this issue
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Aph, I have also watched.
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: and, like him I have tried to work towards no-self- but it wont work
Bruce Mowbray: compassionately.
Eliza Madrigal is grateful when we struggle aloud
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bruce Mowbray: I share that struggle....
Catrinamonblue Resident: there is learning in sharing
Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce - I call him my teacher because he is the only one so far who has formally taught me about Zen or Buddhism
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I understand. And thanks for sharing with us whatever he has told you, Aph.
druth Vlodovic: I should send you the thing I got on teacher vs guru
Aphrodite Macbain: yes please druth
Aphrodite Macbain: but he said we learn from everyone- including ourselves
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Bruce Mowbray ponders that "guru" seems to have emerged from the Hindu tradition more than from the Zen tradition.
Aphrodite Macbain: he said there is nothing wrong with me. I don’t need fixing
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: I agree, Aph.
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: It is the attitudes I have taken aboard that may need fixing
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, we do seem to identify with our thoughts....
Aphrodite Macbain: I told him about you all
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: uh oh
druth Vlodovic: uh oh
Bruce Mowbray: Ha ha!
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Aphrodite Macbain: he was interested and open to learn more
Catrinamonblue Resident: nice
Bruce Mowbray wonders what sort of avi Aph's teacher will assume.
Aphrodite Macbain: just a new way to connect with the world
Aphrodite Macbain: He has a wife! I didn’t realize Zen monks could marry
Aphrodite Macbain: they live at the Zen centre
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray: When the new Pope is elected, maybe even Catholic priests will marry!
druth Vlodovic: seems like you'd be cutting off a huge chunk of the human experience if you couldn't
Bruce Mowbray: for sure, druth!
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: In Hinduism, human life is believed to comprise four stages. These are called "ashramas" and every man should ideally go through each of these stages: The First Ashrama - "Brahmacharya" or the Student Stage The Second Ashrama - "Grihastha" or the Householder Stage The Third Ashrama - "Vanaprastha" or the Hermit Stage The Fourth Ashrama - "Sannyasa" or the Wandering Ascetic Stage

Aphrodite Macbain: Love all these balloons in a row. Who designed them?
Catrinamonblue Resident: Xiri :)

Eliza Madrigal: well traditionally if one wasn't willing to forsake "everything" one wasn't deemed worthy - also because it is impossible not to short change a laylife if pursuing the kind of practice asked for
Eliza Madrigal: that is changing now but one wonders if possible to have 'both'
Aphrodite Macbain: Seems it is designed to fail
Aphrodite Macbain: I would always go around feeling unworthy
Eliza Madrigal: "stages" seems a good plan, times of life
druth Vlodovic: I like the Hindu way, allowing all of a human, just at different times
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Bruce Mowbray turns his "Unworthiness" knob WAYYY down.
Aphrodite Macbain: I seem to be stuck in the first stage then
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Wol Euler: they don't have to be equal measures :)
Wol Euler: in fact probably cannot be
druth Vlodovic: hermit and aesthetic both sound like "student" stages by modern reckoning
Catrinamonblue Resident: maybe we can go from stage to stage and go back again
Aphrodite Macbain: I think we are always in the student stage
Eliza Madrigal: my line was not accurate either... it falls really short of the way worthiness was often judged and in Zen stories caused much confusion with other students sometimes who was chosen as worthy to carry on lineage, etc
Eliza Madrigal: dedicated disciplined scholars passed over for illiterate simple folk, etc :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I am realizing there are many interpretations of Hinduism and Buddhism
druth Vlodovic: I imagine politics reared its head as well, get somebody kicked out of a large organization ruling the hearts of the people if they want to have kids etc
Eliza Madrigal: and women... one story a woman scars herself because they wont' let her in to practice, too beautiful
Aphrodite Macbain: politics rears its head regularly
druth Vlodovic: distracting her 15 male peers :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yep
Wol Euler: poor boys unable to control their emotions, sigh
Aphrodite Macbain: to me that is the ego speaking -  as in “I'm better/uglier/stronger/weaker than you.”
Bruce Mowbray agrees with Aph on that.
Aphrodite Macbain: comparing, comparing always comparing
Aphrodite Macbain: when it's all so relative
Eliza Madrigal: there were reasons for some things, most things perhaps, fitting with the cultures of the time
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- I think so Eliza - context is everything
druth Vlodovic: speaking of which
Bruce Mowbray: What things fit with the culture of our own time, though?
druth Vlodovic: what other differences did he mention?
Eliza Madrigal: quite a question
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Wol Euler: putting $ value on everything
druth Vlodovic: lol, our culture doesn't fit the culture of our time, it's all mixed and transitional
Eliza Madrigal: good point
Aphrodite Macbain: the biggest difference is the western stress on individuality rather than the collectivity
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Eliza Madrigal: "renunciation" may mean different things now
Aphrodite Macbain: between west and east
Aphrodite Macbain: part of the rise of modernism. The independent lonely individual
Aphrodite Macbain: like the Marlboro man
Eliza Madrigal: not very Zen :)
Aphrodite Macbain: no
Bruce Mowbray: "Who was that masked stranger?"
Eliza Madrigal: it is an aesthetic, in our time?
Aphrodite Macbain: so the westerner's challenge is to try and be larger than the self
Aphrodite Macbain: and the easterner's challenge is to eliminate self all together
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm....
Catrinamonblue Resident: how do they do that Aph? be larger than the self
Aphrodite Macbain: include others
Aphrodite Macbain: when you meditate, be aware of others
Aphrodite Macbain: the sangha, the world, your enemies and friends
Bruce Mowbray ponders Tonglen....
Aphrodite Macbain: yes like metta meditation or Tonglen
druth Vlodovic: joining the collective by being the collective
Eliza Madrigal: Being love
Bruce Mowbray: Being the spaces that we imagine separate us?

Aphrodite Macbain: yes druth, Bruce

Aphrodite Macbain: when we walk in zen meditation the individual becomes part of the group walking- walking close together, being part of a longer whole

--BELL--
Aphrodite Macbain: we practiced walking just the 2 of us, round and round as it was a small room!
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm talking too much
Eliza Madrigal: no it is really interesting Aphrodite, thank you
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks for letting me share this!
Bruce Mowbray: No you're not, Aph. This is really interesting.
Wol Euler listens.
Catrinamonblue Resident: no :) not enough really love hearing what it is like
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm bubbling over right now. I'll need to sit and think about it all
Eliza Madrigal: will your first retreat be formal?

Zen Arado: 's current display-name is "Zen".
Bruce Mowbray tried to turn up his Bubbling All Over knobs.
Aphrodite Macbain: formal?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Zen
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Zen!
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
Wol Euler: hello zen

Eliza Madrigal: I've not attended a Zen retreat but have heard of formalities...eating, etc
Aphrodite Macbain: The retreats are silent , and comprise sitting and walking meditation as well as socializing, tea drinking (formal), and work (ironing, cleaning, folding)
Zen Arado: Samu
Bruce Mowbray thinks he'd be too worried about doing things wrong.
Zen Arado: Oryoki is eating
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks zen!
Aphrodite Macbain: what is Samu?
Eliza Madrigal: yes oryoki is fascinating.. reminds me a little of scouting actually
Zen Arado: work practice
Aphrodite Macbain: eating=scouting?
Zen Arado: in Soto traditiion anyway
Aphrodite Macbain: ah OK
Eliza Madrigal: well the bowl that is used... the way unpacked and then gathered together at the end
Zen Arado: Oryoki is eating
Eliza Madrigal: staying in the same place
Eliza Madrigal: seems magical somehow :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, very concentrated
Aphrodite Macbain: cncntrtd
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: ccd
Bruce Mowbray ponders freeze-dried zen.

Aphrodite Macbain: notices Zen's T shirt
Zen Arado: Xirana was giving them out
Eliza Madrigal: does anyone else not have one?
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks
Zen Arado: not very Zen ;)
Bruce Mowbray: Somehow I can't seem to find my t-shirt....
Eliza Madrigal: Zen do you remember the conversation about not wearing a hot pink shirt to retreats?
Zen Arado: heh yes
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: found the t-shirt in my clothing folder :)
Eliza Madrigal: I guess it would be too blatantly "individual"
Aphrodite Macbain: Bertram's meditation is in 6 minutes dingggg
Aphrodite Macbain: unless everyone was wearing hot pink
Zen Arado: black robes are best
Aphrodite Macbain: I ironed 5 of them today
Eliza Madrigal: :) hot pink samadhi
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Wol Euler grins.

Catrinamonblue Resident: Have you set a time yet when you will be going? How long at first ?
Zen Arado: well done
Aphrodite Macbain: Not yet Cat. I have weekends and evenings to choose from. Trouble is it takes 40 mins by bus each way
Catrinamonblue Resident: ah
Wol Euler: tricky
Aphrodite Macbain: I am curious about doing a 3 day retreat Fri.-Sun
Zen Arado: you are lucky you have a center so close though
Aphrodite Macbain: yes you're right Zen
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray: indeed, you are.
Zen Arado: know lots do Zen on online forum
Zen Arado: I have never been able to get into local zen centre
Aphrodite Macbain: I don’t think I will go for a morning meditation but I might go for a 3 or 7 day one
Aphrodite Macbain: why Zen?
Zen Arado: it is up a flight of stairs
Aphrodite Macbain: no lift?
Zen Arado: nope
Aphrodite Macbain: tch tch
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you for sharing this information, Aph...
Aphrodite Macbain: yw. Thanks for listening!
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes ty Aph :)
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: I'm glad it was such a good experience
druth Vlodovic: you'd think they would use community centres, with better facilities
Aphrodite Macbain: namaste
Wol Euler: ah yes, bertie
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Aph, everyone
Bruce Mowbray: May all be well and walk in beauty today.
Wol Euler: goodnight, take care
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks everyone
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye all :)
Aphrodite Macbain: byee
Zen Arado: byee
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic dies laughing
druth Vlodovic: so long all
Aphrodite Macbain: gigg;ele
Aphrodite Macbain: s