2013.02.25 19:00 - Love Through Dropping

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

"In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired. In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped." Tao Te Ching, verse 48

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: ☆✶✫✩
Eliza Madrigal: Hello!
stevenaia Michinaga: greetings
stevenaia Michinaga: nice guardian session yesterday, sorry I missed it
Eliza Madrigal: I'm surprised you are still awake, after waking so early today
stevenaia Michinaga: lol, I took a nap, had a late meeting too
Eliza Madrigal: It was great for Pema to pop in, nods
stevenaia Michinaga: was at a dinner pary last night, may have drank a bit to much, woke me up early

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu!
Eliza Madrigal: that happens to me too... if I have wine often wake very early and also jittery
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Bleu
Bleu Oleander: hiya :)
stevenaia Michinaga: we were drinking much stronger stuff
stevenaia Michinaga: everyone was happy
Eliza Madrigal: I can't remember the last time I had stronger stuff :) maybe a martini a few years ago, but sounds fun
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, it;s not a regular event

stevenaia Michinaga: love your outfit, bleu
Eliza Madrigal: especially the wild woman hair!
Bleu Oleander: oh ty steve :)
Bleu Oleander: hehe
stevenaia Michinaga: very arts and crafts ish
stevenaia Michinaga: style-wise
Eliza Madrigal: Hi, Ewan!
Bleu Oleander: actually the pattern is neurons :)

Bleu Oleander: hi Ewan
stevenaia Michinaga: and where do you think they got it from?
Eliza Madrigal: as long as not neurosis ::badumbump::::
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: Hey Aph!
Ewan Bonham: Hi Folks...
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi
Aphrodite Macbain: mmm grass
Bleu Oleander: hey Aph :)
Eliza Madrigal: so nice to see you all
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: nice to be seen
Bleu Oleander: nice to see you all too

Eliza Madrigal: :) was also nice to wake this morning to a few pointers in the wiki for "love and being" - ty Stevie
Aphrodite Macbain: oh - for example?
Eliza Madrigal: I've kept the "play as love" session open most of the day, going back to read portions
Eliza Madrigal: https://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2008/07/2008.07.12_19%3a00_-_Play_as_Love
Eliza Madrigal: though it is really mostly about play
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: more than love?
stevenaia Michinaga: some very early chats here
Aphrodite Macbain: bet keep love playful
Eliza Madrigal: I suppose the love is there, love of exploration and play... but not so directly approached
stevenaia Michinaga: https://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2013/02/2013.02.25_01%3a00_-_Search_for_Love_and_Being_(In_the_Wiki)
Eliza Madrigal: understandably :)

Eliza Madrigal: would love to hear what arises to mind for everyone - for me Being and Love can't be separated but as difficult as Love is to approach, Being perhaps more so :)

Aphrodite Macbain: Thinks about being in love
stevenaia Michinaga: but before you were ever in love what was love?
Eliza Madrigal: wow :)
Aphrodite Macbain: a strange concept
stevenaia Michinaga: same with being, you know it by experience
stevenaia Michinaga: not by description
Eliza Madrigal: yet never separate from

Ewan Bonham: Hmmm... I have another opinion..
Eliza Madrigal listens
Ewan Bonham: I think we are born being loving creatures..
Ewan Bonham: And unfortunately are taught to replace it with ego as we are acculturated
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, like intuition, you can loose it and find it again

Eliza Madrigal: doesn't some conditioning seem to come in with birth?
Ewan Bonham: Eventually, we come to a point where we want to rediscover our loving essence again..
stevenaia Michinaga: I would hope so for all our sakes

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: I think love is an emotion ... one we as humans know from our vantage point ... other beings might experience something similar
Eliza Madrigal: the felt experience of connection = emotion?
stevenaia Michinaga: hi San
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San!
Bleu Oleander: unfortunately we can also experience other emotions like hate and jealousy etc. we can learn to overcome them by recognizing that they exist
Bleu Oleander: hi San
Santoshima Resident: hello everyone ~
Ewan Bonham: Hello San..

Eliza Madrigal: there is something hard to articulate... that hm, connection, Being being Being, not felt, is still 'there'?
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi san :-)
Bleu Oleander: hi Luci
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Lucinda, wow what a dress :)
Eliza Madrigal: yet we can have experiences of Being amidst our every day being
stevenaia Michinaga: Hi luci
Eliza Madrigal: and perhaps same with experiences of "in love"
Aphrodite Macbain: Luci is the setting sun

Bleu Oleander: is our every day being different than our Being?
Lucinda Lavender: Hello All!
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think so... but sometimes perhaps Aware?
Aphrodite Macbain: It all comes down to capital letters
Bleu Oleander: so sometimes being with a cap B ... means?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: well I am thinking about Ewan's sensibility of always loving and yet seem to forget
Eliza Madrigal: (though that's a different phrasing)

Aphrodite Macbain: conscious vs unconscious loving
Eliza Madrigal: but even when forgetting not stepping out of Being
Eliza Madrigal nods Aph

Aphrodite Macbain: One is a sentiment, a feeling, a sense of joy and heightened emotion
Aphrodite Macbain: The other is just a deep sense of deep groundedness
Bleu Oleander: so making a distinction between being and Being in some way?
Lucinda Lavender: sorry...so slow is my connection...be well all...
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm not too familiar with the latter
Eliza Madrigal: oh, nice to see you Luci
Eliza Madrigal: sorry about connection
Santoshima Resident: dang my connection is slow too ... missed the dress

Aphrodite Macbain: Everyone should see "Amore" - that's what I mean about the second kind of love
Eliza Madrigal: intend to see that soon :)
stevenaia Michinaga: a movie?
Bleu Oleander: yes me too
Santoshima Resident: a pizza
Aphrodite Macbain: It is very powerful
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles

Aphrodite Macbain: no gliz glamour or hype
Aphrodite Macbain: just deep enduring love

Eliza Madrigal: love can't be just a sensation can it, then would be dependent on conditions and time
Aphrodite Macbain: that permeates their beings
Aphrodite Macbain: romantic love is the one that makes dopamines rush round your system
Bleu Oleander: love isn't dependent upon conditions and time? what is love dependent upon?
Aphrodite Macbain: creating feelings of elation

stevenaia Michinaga: my connection is also slow, but I;m falling asleep, not my computer connection
stevenaia Michinaga: night ll
stevenaia Michinaga: all
Aphrodite Macbain: night
Eliza Madrigal: :) night Stevie too
Bleu Oleander: nite steve :)
Santoshima Resident: bye stevenaia
Aphrodite Macbain: I love her exits!

Eliza Madrigal: I guess I have a sense of Love as ground whether or not I feel it
Bleu Oleander: so love is more than an emotion, even though emotions can be felt deeply?

Aphrodite Macbain: that's what I was trying to describe. It isnt just an emotion
Bleu Oleander: what is it then?
Aphrodite Macbain: it's perhaps a state of consciousness

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: (NDR going a bit off the rails)

Bleu Oleander: emotions are a state of consciousnesss
Eliza Madrigal: not attempting profundity... but I'd tend to respond "all there is" re what is love
Eliza Madrigal: and sometimes we experience it with another or nature or community

Aphrodite Macbain: think of consciousness as extending beyond emotions
Aphrodite Macbain: awareness
Aphrodite Macbain: of oneself and others
Bleu Oleander: awareness is consciousness
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: that's what I meant
Aphrodite Macbain: but I dont think awareness is just emotions
Bleu Oleander: emotions are felt states of consciousness
Aphrodite Macbain: mmm

Aphrodite Macbain: are you saying that we are always in an emotional state?
Eliza Madrigal nods... emotions can be reflections of an experience not necessarily articulated ?
Eliza Madrigal: okay that was a strange sentence, sorry
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: they are a body's responses to experiences

Eliza Madrigal: the film you mention, without seeing it I have the impression it is about love that endures beyond the kind of emotions based on first attractions
Bleu Oleander: first attraction emotions are a kind of love emotions
Bleu Oleander: hi Louis
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Louis, would you like a note ?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- a feeling that is in the core of themselves based on a lifetime of experiences
Aphrodite Macbain: they express themelves with little or no emotion
Ewan Bonham: hi Loius..
Louis Onyett: Hi Bleu, Eliza.

Eliza Madrigal: maybe they are strong seed emotions - first attractions
Eliza Madrigal: full of potential
Aphrodite Macbain: but their actions speak of deep committed love
Eliza Madrigal: which may or may not come to fruition
Louis Onyett: Hello Ewan.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bleu Oleander: we tend to refer to every kind of love feeling as "love"
Eliza Madrigal: yes, like I love your wild hair :)
Bleu Oleander: but actually many varieties
Ewan Bonham: And intensities..
Aphrodite Macbain: I gather Buddhism defines a variety of types of love.
Bleu Oleander: hehe :)
Eliza Madrigal: aspects of love, aspects of being

Louis Onyett: Bleu, I agree, but in a contrary manner just to keep us honest.
Eliza Madrigal: :P
Louis Onyett: ;)
Ewan Bonham: Is it really just of degree and how we choose to celebrate love?
Bleu Oleander: :P
Ewan Bonham: I must go folks....interesting convo...:)
Eliza Madrigal: bye Ewan :)
Bleu Oleander: bye Ewan
Santoshima Resident: salut ewan
Louis Onyett: Hmm again the yin and yang seem to out yin me.

Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking about Pema's dropping outline...
Eliza Madrigal:

Pema Pera: dropping successive layers of what we identify with
Pema Pera: starting with personal history, going on to personality, then to humanity, than to being alive, then to time :-)
Bleu (bleu.oleander): can love prevail through the stages of dropping?
druth Vlodovic: I understood that to be the foundation of the whole thing
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): oh, lovely question Bleu
Zen (zen.arado): love is the natural core perhaps

Eliza Madrigal: so some sense of seeing / seeing through (?) conditions and states
Bleu Oleander: upon reflection I do like that question :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi druth!
Louis Onyett: Love must prevail, or why move?
Bleu Oleander: meaning is tied to movement it seems
Aphrodite Macbain: how so?
Bleu Oleander: reading a fascinating book, "Louder than words"
Bleu Oleander: seems we make meaning through embodied simulation
Santoshima Resident: meaning is within context, and is held together by relationship and recognition of that
Aphrodite Macbain: what is Bleu?
Eliza Madrigal: enactments
Bleu Oleander: meaning is based on movement and our experience
Santoshima Resident: { ^ imho}
Aphrodite Macbain: embodied simulation?

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain wonders what Bleu is doing
Bleu Oleander: recent studies have shown that we use parts of our brains associated with movement when we find meaning in experience and language
Santoshima Resident: mapping
Eliza Madrigal: function deeper or quicker than consciousness
Bleu Oleander: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: physical reactions to things?
Aphrodite Macbain: we respond without thinking about it?
Bleu Oleander: so when we say love ... meaning comes from our experience in the world
Aphrodite Macbain: what has that to do with movement?
Louis Onyett: This is true about all concepts

Eliza Madrigal: some studies show we reach before deciding to... there is more study ahead on that
Bleu Oleander: we move in the world so we remember our experiences
Louis Onyett: Yes, that is neat.
Aphrodite Macbain: we move in order to remember?
Bleu Oleander: we move and we remember
Aphrodite Macbain: what is the book called? I dont understand this
Bleu Oleander: we remember feelings associated with our experience
Eliza Madrigal: so responsiveness may arise from context and situatedness, and action following, which would certainly agree with a lot of buddhist thought as I understand it
Bleu Oleander: "louder than words"
Bleu Oleander: yes

Aphrodite Macbain: yes. we remember things better when there are emotions associated with them
Bleu Oleander: seems most of what we do has an emotional component ... even rational thinking does
Aphrodite Macbain: actions speak...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: interesting
Eliza Madrigal: so love and then acts of love
Aphrodite Macbain: of fear of love and moving away?
Aphrodite Macbain: or
Eliza Madrigal listens

Bleu Oleander: so all of us may have slightly different concepts of love in our minds
Louis Onyett: Yes, Bleu. Understanding what is the same and different is the fun part.
Bleu Oleander: agree
Eliza Madrigal: I think (ha ha 'think') Love is prior to mind
Eliza Madrigal: that mind arises to grasp at experience of love
Bleu Oleander: loaded words there hehe
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Santoshima Resident: depends on your definition of 'mind"
Bleu Oleander: exactly
Eliza Madrigal: indeed

Aphrodite Macbain: : why would it do that?
Aphrodite Macbain: mind arising to grasp...
Bleu Oleander: so love exists even if no mind?
Santoshima Resident: likes to keep busy? ...
Aphrodite Macbain: love is a chemical concotion
Santoshima Resident: lag abounds tonight

Eliza Madrigal: touches on what Zen is trying to articulate with nonduality angles I guess... spontaneous play of appearances and possibilities
Aphrodite Macbain: triggered by experience and the mind
Aphrodite Macbain: we all speak different languages...
Eliza Madrigal nods
Santoshima Resident: yes, love not defined by emotional state. but creative life force
Aphrodite Macbain: based on what we experience and what we learn
Santoshima Resident: love is the creative life force
Aphrodite Macbain: necessity is the mother of invention...
Eliza Madrigal: which comes back to Being
Santoshima Resident: huh
Louis Onyett: Aphrodite seems to be saying that we have brains and there is no mystery. The brain made love.
Bleu Oleander: so many ways to define what love means
Santoshima Resident: yes
Santoshima Resident: eliza

Aphrodite Macbain: yes thank you Louis
Aphrodite Macbain: It all starts in the brain
Aphrodite Macbain: which dictates what happens next
Santoshima Resident: yoiks
Louis Onyett: A straight forward view...good place to start

Bleu Oleander: so the brain, the mind, the body, and others made the emotion of love felt as a feeling
Aphrodite Macbain: secreting different hormones at different times so we can survive as a species
Aphrodite Macbain: romantic love
Aphrodite Macbain: mother love
Bleu Oleander: puppy love
Aphrodite Macbain: each serves a purpose
Santoshima Resident: a birdsong
Aphrodite Macbain: to ensure we survive
Santoshima Resident: a blade of grass
Louis Onyett: I like them all, regardless. :)
Bleu Oleander: love of chocolate
Santoshima Resident: dew
Santoshima Resident: sunlight
Santoshima Resident: flowers
Santoshima Resident: pollen
Bleu Oleander: sky
Santoshima Resident: crystals and minerals
Eliza Madrigal: certainly the other side of the coin - form and formless
Aphrodite Macbain: romantics all!
Bleu Oleander: paint
Santoshima Resident: indees
Santoshima Resident: paint and colour
Santoshima Resident: sightedness and senses
Bleu Oleander: color yes!
Santoshima Resident: all a gift
Bleu Oleander: birds
Santoshima Resident: and all
Santoshima Resident: love
Bleu Oleander: music
Santoshima Resident: dance
Aphrodite Macbain: romatic poets to boot
Bleu Oleander: sleep
Santoshima Resident: boots
Bleu Oleander: books
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Eliza Madrigal: my question today was... able to have romance without idealism?

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: self
Louis Onyett: sleep especially. Good to be tired. :)
Aphrodite Macbain: time to go to bed?
Aphrodite Macbain: so we can love again tomorrow
Bleu Oleander: Aph :) nite
Aphrodite Macbain: nite nite
Bleu Oleander: take care
Santoshima Resident: bye

Bleu Oleander: that was your question tonight Eliza?
Louis Onyett: Did we come close to an answer? lol
Eliza Madrigal: earlier today, after this morning's session actually.... seems to be where confusion arises for me, experientially, in "dealings with love" :)
Eliza Madrigal: maybe love without pedestals is still idealism, lots of questions around that :) no answers
Bleu Oleander: pedestals?

Santoshima Resident: romance without idealism, sure!
Santoshima Resident: courage required
Eliza Madrigal: expectations might be another way of saying pedestal
Santoshima Resident: i like what veda hile sings:
Eliza Madrigal: ah yes, courage required :) nice
Santoshima Resident: we must be stronger than love
Santoshima Resident: see ya
Eliza Madrigal: night San
Louis Onyett: bye
Bleu Oleander: bye san

Bleu Oleander: so no answers ... that's a good thing :)

Louis Onyett: I too must sleep. I'll dream of PaB.
Eliza Madrigal: :) Night Louis
Eliza Madrigal: maybe PaB will dream of you
Bleu Oleander: nite Louis
Bleu Oleander: take care

Eliza Madrigal: sorry to miss saying bye to Aph, was looking for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La_9x...e=results_main

Eliza Madrigal smiles
Bleu Oleander: clicking
Bleu Oleander: ah yes :)

Eliza Madrigal: It is interesting... tonight there were so many views and I don't disagree with any
Bleu Oleander: all right in a way
Eliza Madrigal: materialist views and cosmic views, along with others
Bleu Oleander: all pieces of the puzzle
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bleu Oleander: nice to have all of them
Eliza Madrigal: does feel some clarity to arise
Eliza Madrigal: though maybe not in a tidy way
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: not tidy ... also a good thing :)
Eliza Madrigal: agreed too! :)

Eliza Madrigal: thanks for coming... I'd better get some sleep too
Bleu Oleander: yes me too
Bleu Oleander: take care
Eliza Madrigal: may try to step in for Riddle tomorrow but not sure if able yet
Eliza Madrigal: Night, tc
Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
Bleu Oleander: ♥ *•.¸♥¸.•* ♥
Bleu Oleander: bye