2008.11.01 07:00 - Resolve Without a "Re"

Pia Iger as guardian and prepared this log.

Soon PaB will move to a new venue. While, old teahouse is still being remembered.

Maxine Walden: hi, Pia, Adams
Adams Dubrovna: Good morning Maxine and Pia :)
Pia Iger: Good morning, Maxine , Adams
Fael Illyar: Hi Pia, Adams, Maxine :)
Pia Iger: Fael, Hi,
Adams Dubrovna: Hi Fael :)
Maxine Walden: hi, Fael
Maxine Walden: last weekend in this Pavilion, I guess
Fael Illyar nods.
Adams Dubrovna: Yes. bittersweet
Maxine Walden: yes, change is bittersweet sometimes
Fael Illyar: that reminds me, I was going to send email to the group suggesting 1AM slots to be moved back to the teahouse :P
Maxine Walden: oh, Fael?
Adams Dubrovna: That is worth considering
Fael Illyar: well, it's certainly big enough for them :)
Adams Dubrovna: Yes
Maxine Walden: very few come to the 1am?
Adams Dubrovna: sometimes one
Maxine Walden: ah...
Fael Illyar: the guardian often just sits alone there.
Maxine Walden: hmmm
Adams Dubrovna: Maybe we should provide games
Adams Dubrovna: a video arcade
Fael Illyar: enough games around the web and more easily available.

The model of new building is on the table, inviting us to give it a name.

Maxine Walden: find myself looking at the model on the table and trying to see if a name for it comes to mind
Adams Dubrovna: ah
Adams Dubrovna: I visited last night for that reason :)
Maxine Walden: so did I!
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Fael Illyar: well, it kind of looks like a wedding cake :)
Maxine Walden: haha, yes it does
Adams Dubrovna: reminds me of an early Christian church
Fael Illyar: oh, is that what the wedding cakes are modeled after?
Adams Dubrovna: maybe
Maxine Walden: hmm. I rather liked Pema's notion of a 'spire' because my mind went to the word 'inspire'; don't think that is the best name but it was an association
Fael Illyar: well, spire is relatively close to what it is in a way )
Adams Dubrovna: hmmmmm
Fael Illyar: then our meetings will be in spire :)
Maxine Walden: oh, yes, great pun, Fael!

Adams started a topic about the sense of self changed after our RL guardian meeting.

Adams Dubrovna: Maxine, I have been thinking about the fish and your statement yesterday
Maxine Walden: oh, yes...
Adams Dubrovna: Many of us have complained of having difficulty bringing what we learned here into real life
Fael Illyar: Hi U :)
Adams Dubrovna: Hell Umbriel
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Umbriel
Maxine Walden: hi, Umbriel
Pia Iger: Hell Umbriel
Adams Dubrovna: What if the shock of the PaB Fest suddenly brought everything into real life?
Adams Dubrovna: That would leave one very confused about "self"
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Maxine Walden: too much reality to bear or contemplate?
Fael Illyar: For me there wasn't a strong barrier between RL and SL to begin with.
Adams Dubrovna: Well, difficult to comprehend on some levels
Adams Dubrovna: Interesting Fael
Adams Dubrovna: When I saw the pictures my first reaction was that person did not belong there
Fael Illyar: to me, SL is essentially a communications "device".
Adams Dubrovna: I think I have been living this more Fael
Fael Illyar: well, living is communicating :)
Maxine Walden: yes, it seems to me that we humans have capacities to view/perceive reality which have evolved to help us survive, but those capacities can see only a slice of the universe and yet we 'think' that we are perceiving everything
Adams Dubrovna: yes
Maxine Walden: it may feel disorientating to be confronted with how little we can perceive and yet how much we think we can perceive
Adams Dubrovna: It is a bit of a shock when we find out
Faenik: could be
Maxine Walden: it is, isn't it!
Adams Dubrovna: Even though we may know it on some level
Maxine Walden: yes, and maybe we know and we try not to know because the 'knowledge' of how little we can perceive makes us feel very small
Adams Dubrovna: We are the first PaB group to go through this
Adams Dubrovna: sub group
Maxine Walden: (gong seems very loud to me just then)
Maxine Walden: sub group?
Adams Dubrovna: the group that met at the PaB fest
Umbriel Levenque: 'small' Maxine?
Maxine Walden: oh, yes, that group.
Fael Illyar: 'small' as in, smaller than you've built your worldview on.
Adams Dubrovna: See, I think I feel disoriented and confused but I don't feel in any way diminished
Umbriel Levenque: just curious... in the past when I vaguely 'knew' it... I felt small but not anymore
Fael Illyar: which can feel threatening until you realize that it changes nothing about you.
Maxine Walden: By small, I mean that when I am confronted with the contrast between what my capacities are and what I think they are, then the jarring contrast can make me feel small (when I felt I had significant capacities). Too wordy?
Umbriel Levenque: for me, I felt small because I didn't accept that fact imo...
Adams Dubrovna: No, I understand what you mean

Pema entered.

Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Pema :)
Pema Pera: Hi there!
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Pia Iger: Hello Pema :)
Pema Pera: Good seeing y'all !

Why we feel small?

Maxine Walden: We've been talking about feeling small in the face of the reality we cannot perceive
Adams Dubrovna: I only worry Maxine that that feeling get mixed up with what is a disorientation
Maxine Walden: oh, Adams?
Umbriel Levenque: I wanted to know, see more, I wanted the reality to be different... hence felt small
Adams Dubrovna: yes Umbriel
Adams Dubrovna: yes
Umbriel Levenque: has been working on that for a while now...
Maxine Walden: wanting reality to be the way we want rather than being open to what it 'is'
Umbriel Levenque: yes Maxine
Fael Illyar: realizing your wants can't be fulfilled but not accepting it does that, yes ...
Adams Dubrovna: Yes, that may be the difference. What if we only notice that what we perceive is confusing and do not put a value judgement on it?
Umbriel Levenque realises he typed 'has been' rather than 'have been'... interesting
Maxine Walden: I find that when I can hold my perceptions lightly then I don't feel small, don't expect my perceptions are other than that, just my perceptions
Umbriel Levenque: Adams, if one does that... any inner conflicts will be resolved imo
Adams Dubrovna: yes, I think that is what i am trying to get at Maxine
Maxine Walden: right
Faenik loves wells!
Adams Dubrovna: Hopefully Umbriel, once we discover what they are
Maxine Walden: there is a conference here this weekend, and it was interesting last evening how invested some speakers were in 'their' opinion as if it were the only truth. Think they would be jarred to have this view on the wider reality
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Storm :)
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Storm :)
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Faenik: why not?
Pema Pera: maybe a shift in perspective will solve all conflicts within the context you thought you lived in -- without having to resolve anything -- without a "re"; just solve the whole limited view

Storm came to remove the pumpkins. Luckily I took a picture before he did it!

Pema Pera: Hi Storm
Maxine Walden: hi, Storm!
Storm Nordwind: Hi!
Pia Iger: hi, Storm!
Storm Nordwind: Just come to remove the pumpkins! :)
Pema Pera: keep them for next year?
Maxine Walden: oh, I was glad to see them, the pumpkins, thanks so for bringing them
Adams Dubrovna: Do we get saints instead of the pumpkins?
Storm Nordwind: Have you ever tried keeping a pumpkin for longer than a few weeks? :)
Adams Dubrovna: haha
Maxine Walden: might morph into a new reality after a few weeks
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Maxine Walden: the Being of a pumpkin....

I have no idea of the connection between saint and pumpkin. Suddenly, Pema has a saint halo above his head.

Umbriel Levenque: a red-haired saint Pema
Pema Pera: ordered by Adams
Umbriel Levenque: heheh
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Pema Pera: now Storm will take me away soon
Fael Illyar grins.
Umbriel Levenque: :D
Pema Pera: (put me up somewhere?)
Storm Nordwind: Sorry pema, I am spoken for
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: not red haired but red haloed
Pema Pera: now we can play Frisbee!
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Umbriel Levenque: :-)
Storm Nordwind decides to leave while he is still intact :)
Pema Pera: (need new gestures though)
Fael Illyar grins and waves Storm goodbye.
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Maxine Walden: before being cracked up with more jokes
Adams Dubrovna: bye Storm
Storm Nordwind: Bye for now folks
Pema Pera: bye Storm and pumpkins
Maxine Walden: bye Storm
Pia Iger: bye Storm

Umbriel continued our discussion.

Umbriel Levenque: about solving the limited view... the wants/needs to understand often hamper this possibly
Pema Pera: "waking up" points to shifting from a more limited perspective to a less limited perspective
Maxine Walden: yes, when 'understanding' feels like a 'thing to attain'
Pema Pera: instead of coming to terms with all the problems within one perspective, you can deal with all of them in one fell swoop
Pema Pera: no need to analyze each one, you would never finish
Fael Illyar: perhaps it could help to realize that we already understand just as much as we need to. It's just not the sort of understanding that bends to words easily.
Faenik: indeed?
Umbriel Levenque: one fell swoop :-)
Pema Pera: but still, Fael, if we don't see it, it would be nice to open our eyes
Fael Illyar: well, that's what realizing it is :) opening your eyes
Pema Pera: understanding which is not acknowledged may not be so helpful :-)
Fael Illyar: I mean, if that wasn't the case, how could we get anywhere with anything :)
Fael Illyar: or even stay alive for that matter
Pema Pera: yes, indeed!
Fael Illyar: It's kind of an amazing feat to stay alive even. Just think of all the mistakes you could make to put an end to that.
Pema Pera: the very practical situation is this: for *any* problem you have in your life, you have two choices: 1) fight with it and try desperately to find a way out; 2) see it in a wider light and realize there is no problem, only an opportunity for celebrating life

One flew away. Two more were gone.

Umbriel Levenque: time to go flying before logging out. thank you for the conversation. enjoy your weekend
Umbriel Levenque: Peace and Love
Pema Pera: c u Umbriel!
Adams Dubrovna: bhye Umbriel
Maxine Walden: bye, Umbriel
PaB Listener Master: Removing "Umbriel Levenque" from list.
Fael Illyar: See you later Umbriel :)
Pema Pera: yes, Fael, and the other amazing thing is that not only both of our parents managed to stay alive until we were conceived, also their parents did the same, and their parent's parents, all the way in an unbroken lineage of billions of years !!
Pema Pera: All our ancestors avoided to get eaten or sick or have an accident before they procreated
Maxine Walden: I will need to go in a few minutes as well, to this conference where I will try to keep the wider view amidst so many self-appointed experts. It will be interesting to observe myself observing
Adams Dubrovna: That is a bit of an accident of selection though Pema
Pema Pera: in that sense our DNA is older than the oldest rocks
Adams Dubrovna: Have a good conference Maxine
Fael Illyar: Yes, have a good conference, Maxine :)
Pia Iger: have a good observing, Maxine:)
Adams Dubrovna: bye
Maxine Walden: thanks all, will see you soon
Pema Pera: bye Maxine
Fael Illyar: Adams, you sounded interested in my comparing the borders of nations to self in how substantial they are the last time we were at te same meeting.
Pema Pera: I have to leave too, RL calling.
Pema Pera: Good seeing you again!
Fael Illyar: See you later Pema :)
Pia Iger: bye, Pema.
Adams Dubrovna: bye Pema :)

Fael and Adams continue their previous dicussion about self and borders.

Adams Dubrovna: I was interested that you saw the illusion of the inner self as one of borders if I understood you correctly
Fael Illyar: yes, I asked, what is self, is not just the borders?
Adams Dubrovna: would you like to say more?
Fael Illyar: let's see, how to say more :)
Fael Illyar: the way it seems to me, the self is not anything cohesive but a collection of attachments.
Adams Dubrovna: but we are talking about the inner self
Adams Dubrovna: To me, the inner self is the physical me
Fael Illyar: I'd need to understand what inner self means to you I guess.
Adams Dubrovna: The part that was there at my birth and will be there when I am dying
Fael Illyar: physical you ... your body?
Adams Dubrovna: there is a brain attached too it
Fael Illyar ponders if that might mean the same thing she means when she says the unconscious mind.
Adams Dubrovna: no it is not the unconscious mind, it is the physical mind. The processor is there
Fael Illyar: well, the way I'd explain this, if we try to match it to the brain, is that conscious mind is just one part of the whole and there's a lot of other "software" running on the other parts that works mostly independently.
Adams Dubrovna: But I agree with you about the other selves. Where is the border between all my real life and avatar selves?
Adams Dubrovna: Interesting metaphor software for selves
Adams Dubrovna: I like it
Fael Illyar: any limit in your mind is something that is there because you've made it, yourself and you can also undo it.
Adams Dubrovna: yes, and we do
Fael Illyar: that's practically what I mean with borders
Adams Dubrovna: OK, I think we understand each other :)
Fael Illyar: but the borders themselves are necessary to function.
Fael Illyar: without borders, you'd be like a newborn baby.
Adams Dubrovna: Whoa
Fael Illyar: the key is being aware of what borders are and that you _can_ change them.
Adams Dubrovna: Well there you are starting to lose me :)
Fael Illyar: and of course, what borders you have there right now.
Fael Illyar: ok, what sort of losing?
Adams Dubrovna: Well, the newborn baby is without a "self" but quickly develops one
Adams Dubrovna: I see the difference between having a self and not having one rather than one of borders
Adams Dubrovna: I don;t know enough about my various selves who keep turning up to comment on how necessary the borders are. In my case, they seem to be constantly merging and moving away from one another
Adams Dubrovna: I am not doing that consciously
Fael Illyar: ok, my sister appeared behind my door without warning...
Adams Dubrovna: I have learned to watch them from a different perspective as Pema put it and I am starting to enjoy watching, especially the pre-SL self who has emerged
Fael Illyar: so, unfortunately, I'll get to leave the meeting here right now.
Adams Dubrovna: ]OK, enjoy visiting with your sister :)
Fael Illyar: So, see you later :)
Adams Dubrovna: bye