2009.05.20 13:00 - Time Exploration

The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

Fefonz Quan: HI gen
genesis Zhangsun: Hey!
Fefonz Quan: hey hey
genesis Zhangsun: Hey!
genesis Zhangsun: I thought no one was going to come
genesis Zhangsun: so I started checking email
Fefonz Quan: we can call it a day if you want :)
genesis Zhangsun: nah not unless you want to?
Fefonz Quan: nope
genesis Zhangsun: gen v. fefonz
genesis Zhangsun: ;)
Fefonz Quan: a dual at noon... papapammm
genesis Zhangsun: so what do you think what should we duel about
genesis Zhangsun: hows the time workshop going?
Fefonz Quan: was much better today, when only the good guys showed up
genesis Zhangsun: is it deepening you understanding of time?
genesis Zhangsun: I know it is something you are really working with in your own practice
Fefonz Quan: surely i see a lot of different angles of it
genesis Zhangsun: such as?
sophia Placebo: greeting fef and gen
genesis Zhangsun: wow hi sophia
Fefonz Quan: the angle of time as created by our mind,
genesis Zhangsun: your blooming
Fefonz Quan: Hey Sophia :)
Fefonz Quan: nice orange blossom
sophia Placebo: hehe ty
Fefonz Quan: the angle of all being as time, the angle of time as another say we seperate between things
genesis Zhangsun: v. the angle of a more objective time?
Fefonz Quan: yes, sure
Fefonz Quan: yet in some sense, beyond all those interesting ideas, i still struggle with my inner perception of it
Fefonz Quan: feeling hard to really connect to some of those concepts.
Fefonz Quan: for example (gave it here yesterday maybe), while contemplating APA by a pond here, and thinking about time too, the on going motion of the waves
Fefonz Quan: kept presenting time flowing in front of me, and there was no way i could transcend this
genesis Zhangsun: yes
genesis Zhangsun: I recently about two months ago had an experience when I finally could
genesis Zhangsun: it was amazing, I myself have been working with the same "problem"
genesis Zhangsun: you tell yourself you are really in a dimension of "no time"
genesis Zhangsun: and yet you see the passing of time everywhere
genesis Zhangsun: like the water
genesis Zhangsun: like the birds chirping, like the cars going by
Fefonz Quan: yes, like reality hitting you on the head
genesis Zhangsun: yes and yet the idea that there really is no time makes sense on some intuitive level
genesis Zhangsun: thinking back to times when you felt like hours had passed and it was only minutes
genesis Zhangsun: or the other way around
Fefonz Quan: that is just differences in measurement, i find it very hard to jump from this to no time.
genesis Zhangsun: so here is how I began "resolving" the competition between my intution and my observation
sophia Placebo: hello arabella
genesis Zhangsun: hey arabella
arabella Ella: hiya
Fefonz Quan: Hey Ara, talking time here
Mickorod Renard: hi
sophia Placebo: hi mickorod renard
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Mick
arabella Ella: hiya Micko
arabella Ella: talking time Fef?
arabella Ella: you got some questions for us?
genesis Zhangsun: shall we try a time experiment?
sophia Placebo: sure
Mickorod Renard: yes please
Fefonz Quan: yes
arabella Ella: ok
genesis Zhangsun: okay so lets get into a 9 second like mode
genesis Zhangsun: I will first describe
genesis Zhangsun: and then we can do it together
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps you have done this Fefonz
genesis Zhangsun: so when I say 9 second like mode
genesis Zhangsun: I mean dropping what we "have"
genesis Zhangsun: to see what we are
genesis Zhangsun: drop our self concepts, our perceptions, our prejudices, our assumptions as much as we can
genesis Zhangsun: just be
genesis Zhangsun: like being seeing
genesis Zhangsun: drop the you grasping to see
genesis Zhangsun: okay so starting from there (may take a couple minutes at least always does for me)
genesis Zhangsun: okay now drop the past
genesis Zhangsun: bring forth the images that lurk in the background
genesis Zhangsun: of all the things you were just doing
genesis Zhangsun: a minute ago, an hour ago, a year ago
genesis Zhangsun: the past
genesis Zhangsun: can you see somehow the unreality of it
genesis Zhangsun: that it isn't here now?
genesis Zhangsun: that you are not bound by that
genesis Zhangsun: it doesn't define you
genesis Zhangsun: so return to now
genesis Zhangsun: do you feel yourself anticipating the next moment?
genesis Zhangsun: thinking about the future?
genesis Zhangsun: drop the future
genesis Zhangsun: collect together the images again- the lists, the planning
genesis Zhangsun: where you think you should be in one hour
genesis Zhangsun: what should happen the next minute
genesis Zhangsun: drop that
genesis Zhangsun: so return to now
genesis Zhangsun: water falling, birds chirping
genesis Zhangsun: looking at your screen
genesis Zhangsun: now drop the now
genesis Zhangsun: what do you see?
arabella Ella: may i ask a question ... or comment
genesis Zhangsun: sure
arabella Ella: i think it is very difficult for me to drop the now
Fefonz Quan: (great exercise Gen, thanks)
arabella Ella: unless i had lots and lots of practice
arabella Ella: how can it be done?
arabella Ella wishes i could ...
Fefonz Quan nods
genesis Zhangsun: yes dropping the now I also feel is the trickiest
genesis Zhangsun: being now is already tough enough
arabella Ella: yes
genesis Zhangsun: I feel pretty good lighter if I can drop the past and the future
genesis Zhangsun: I sort of ask myself why drop the now?
arabella Ella nods
Fefonz Quan: yes, the future was easiest for me, past much harder
arabella Ella: and not just why but how too
Fefonz Quan: drop the now - made me feel dizzy, i didn't understand what that means
sophia Placebo: its like following the water wave -single one- and moving with it, so no now because now is ongoing , no past because im still with the same wave no future because the wave would still be a wave
genesis Zhangsun: yes sophia that is a nice image
arabella Ella: lovely way of describing it
genesis Zhangsun: I can decribe what very strong experience I had with dropping the now
Fefonz Quan: even the sentences of teh screen were evidence for recent past
Mickorod Renard: interesting
Fefonz Quan: yes please Gen
arabella Ella: yes pls gen if u could
sophia Placebo: plz gen
Mickorod Renard: so the now is still there but only a moment of ever recuring new nows?
genesis Zhangsun: yes one way to think about it mick
sophia Placebo: no , no now as a fixed point in the vedio tape ,
genesis Zhangsun: even to create a packaging by calling it "now" is limiting
sophia Placebo: it is just moving wave from no whare towards no whare
Mickorod Renard: a bit like a fly hitting the front of a moving train
genesis Zhangsun: so here is my experience
genesis Zhangsun: I was at the beach really "trying" to get this time thing
sophia Placebo: assuming that the fly is blind , yes or that the train is in the outerspace
genesis Zhangsun: I have been really "trying" for awhile
genesis Zhangsun: in a non "trying" way ;)
genesis Zhangsun: so I am at the beach
genesis Zhangsun: looking at the waves
genesis Zhangsun: and I go through this exploration
genesis Zhangsun: I drop the past
genesis Zhangsun: I feel that I can do that somehow
genesis Zhangsun: when I recall the images of my past
genesis Zhangsun: I can recognize that they are just pictures
genesis Zhangsun: they really have no bearing on reality
genesis Zhangsun: or very little
genesis Zhangsun: just slices
genesis Zhangsun: shadows
genesis Zhangsun: I look at the water again
genesis Zhangsun: I return to now
genesis Zhangsun: I can feel the spray of the waves
genesis Zhangsun: the freshness of the air in and out of my nostrils
genesis Zhangsun: the birds squawking
genesis Zhangsun: sand beneath my feet
genesis Zhangsun: I am in the "now"
genesis Zhangsun: I think about the future
genesis Zhangsun: I can already picture myself
genesis Zhangsun: walking away from this spot
genesis Zhangsun: returning to my car
genesis Zhangsun: driving away
genesis Zhangsun: back home
genesis Zhangsun: I can see all that
genesis Zhangsun: and yet I stop and remember that none of that may happen
genesis Zhangsun: that it really is figment of my imagination
genesis Zhangsun: I drop the future
genesis Zhangsun: I return to the waves
genesis Zhangsun: I am in the now
genesis Zhangsun: and it is pleasant there in the now
genesis Zhangsun: and yet I can see that "now"
genesis Zhangsun: is a limiting measurement just like past and just like future
genesis Zhangsun: I am still trying in a very subtle way to hold on
genesis Zhangsun: to something
genesis Zhangsun: so I drop the now
genesis Zhangsun: and I felt the world in a new way
genesis Zhangsun: not as time
genesis Zhangsun: but as energy
genesis Zhangsun: the waves lapping on the shore
genesis Zhangsun: they were not measures of time
genesis Zhangsun: minutes passing
genesis Zhangsun: but energy
genesis Zhangsun: time as energy unfolding space
genesis Zhangsun: revealing something
genesis Zhangsun: revealing nothing
genesis Zhangsun: it felt like blood rushing back into my veins
genesis Zhangsun: everything was "alive" with time as energy
genesis Zhangsun: it was a view of the world going from small nicely bite sized morsels
genesis Zhangsun: artificial packaging of time
genesis Zhangsun: to something raw, living, oxygenated
genesis Zhangsun: thats it
Mickorod Renard: well, thats something to ponder over Gen
Fefonz Quan: yes, great experience and description Gen
genesis Zhangsun: time in this form became some sort of nourishment
genesis Zhangsun: as opposed to a cage
genesis Zhangsun: thanks for letting me share
arabella Ella: thanks so much for sharing gen
arabella Ella: very intruiging ... and sounds so clear ... sounds easy but definitely isnt
Mickorod Renard: yes thanks Gen
genesis Zhangsun: try it this exloration a few times for yourself
genesis Zhangsun: I always learn something
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Fefonz Quan: yes, i would take this nice exercise to ponder on Gen
genesis Zhangsun: you are time, it is not something that is happening to you
Fefonz Quan: here, when you wrote 'drop the 'now', it caught me by surprise, so for a second it was like the floor dropping beneath my legs
genesis Zhangsun: yeah its scary
genesis Zhangsun: I always got too scared before
genesis Zhangsun: and fear made me hold on
sophia Placebo: agrees with gen re time as energy , i have been preciving it as the change , i guess the energy enough to cause a change or the change of energy
genesis Zhangsun: but like everything in life where fear holds you back when drop the fear of fear you find that isn't so scary at all, it in fact puts you more in touch with what is
genesis Zhangsun: yes sophia
genesis Zhangsun: its like Trumpa
genesis Zhangsun: my favortite tibetan says
genesis Zhangsun: :)
arabella Ella: so ... i am time ... i am the wave ... sounds a bit like kant's copernican revolution
genesis Zhangsun: its not like pulling the rug out from under your feet
genesis Zhangsun: its like a blue pancake (the sky) falling on your head
Mickorod Renard: can u say more Ara
sophia Placebo: whats kants revoulotion - briefly and simplified - :) ?
genesis Zhangsun: got to go!
genesis Zhangsun: team meeting
genesis Zhangsun: thanks again
Mickorod Renard: bye Gen..;)
Fefonz Quan: Thanks Gen, see you soon
sophia Placebo: bye gen , thanks for sharing
arabella Ella: ty gen
arabella Ella: will answer after silence :)
Mickorod Renard: ;)
arabella Ella: ok so you all know about copernicus ... he was from poland
arabella Ella: nicolas
arabella Ella: he proved that the earth goes around the sun not vice versa
arabella Ella: so the earth was no longer centre of universe
sophia Placebo: yes
Mickorod Renard: yes
arabella Ella: now kant had his copernican revolution in a similar way
arabella Ella: and it is related to some extent to what gen said about time being in us
arabella Ella: kant realised as part of his brilliant philosophy
Mickorod Renard: ohh?
arabella Ella: that our brain must be structured so as to allow us to only perceive what is outside and beyond our thinking
arabella Ella: only through the concepts of space and time
arabella Ella: so it is like we wear 'spectacles'
arabella Ella: which we cannot remove
arabella Ella: not sure if that is clear?
Mickorod Renard: I see,,,,or rather I dont he he
arabella Ella smiles
Mickorod Renard: but that wud make some sense
arabella Ella: ok ... space and time are not 'things' that exist on their own outside our thinking
arabella Ella: they are part of how our brain is structured
arabella Ella: with the consequence
Fefonz Quan: i see, and i think what gen was decribing is 'transcending' kunt
Mickorod Renard: yes,,to make relative sense of things with
arabella Ella: that we can never perceive anything as it really is ... independent of our thinking ... which is limited ... or structured in a certain way
arabella Ella: Fef ... what i find similar here to what gen said is
arabella Ella: space and time are in us
arabella Ella: not outside us
Fefonz Quan nods
Fefonz Quan: i see
arabella Ella: I am time and time is me
arabella Ella: I am the wave and the wave is me
arabella Ella: Fef is something on at Kira now?
Fefonz Quan: apologize, i have to go to the Kira meeting. Namaste all :)
arabella Ella: ciao Fef
sophia Placebo: bye fef
Fefonz Quan: team meeting, not workshop...)
Mickorod Renard: if one can ,,sort of wear spectacles to see the reality of Kants theory,,what sort of advantage may we percieve?
Mickorod Renard: bye Fef
arabella Ella: it does not have to be seen as an advantage
arabella Ella: it is just an observation on our human way of perceiving things outside our brains
Mickorod Renard: ok
arabella Ella: according to kant
arabella Ella: due to the structure of our human brain
arabella Ella: it is impossible for us to perceive anything outside space and time
Mickorod Renard: but presumbly time has a practical purpose,,or does it?
arabella Ella: i dont consider myself an expert on time Mick
arabella Ella: so I do not think I have an answer to that question
sophia Placebo: hmm , well if time is only your preciving of change , it is advisable when you do a presentaion to change your body position frequently , your voice tone and the slides
arabella Ella: what do you think?
sophia Placebo: :)
Mickorod Renard: mm,ok but thankyou,,its interesting to ponder on that
arabella Ella nods to sophia ... ehrm .... yes ... presentations ... :)
arabella Ella: do you give presentations on a regular basis sophia?
sophia Placebo: no , few when i was in school
arabella Ella: ok i see
sophia Placebo: what advantage of kants space theory
arabella Ella: it is merely a description
arabella Ella: some people take it as a limitation
arabella Ella: as some claim that we cannot perceive reality outside our thinking
arabella Ella: what kant called 'things in themselves'
Mickorod Renard: I think finding the limits is great,,but sometimes its hard to know where the limit is
arabella Ella: yes and reflection can bring up exceptions
arabella Ella: plus ... there are lots of different at times conflicting interpretations of what kant had said
arabella Ella: but that is philosophy
arabella Ella: always raises more questions than it answers
Mickorod Renard: yea
arabella Ella: i must go now
arabella Ella: bye Micko bye sophia
Mickorod Renard: ok I am going,,bye
sophia Placebo: lets try to do this , back in time - the changes that happened to oubye arar substance -
sophia Placebo: bye ara
Mickorod Renard: bye Ara, Sophie
sophia Placebo: bye
arabella Ella: we could try to do it next time soph if you wish
arabella Ella: just keep it in mind
arabella Ella: bye for now :)
sophia Placebo: l:)
sophia Placebo: bye