2010.04.02 13:00 - Attachement

The Guardian for this meeting was Liza Deischer. The comments are by Liza Deischer.

What took off as a not very interesting evening, became pretty painful to me, being able to see and feel my own attachment, but not being able to let it go. Finally I stopped the discussion, being the only thing I finally could do.

But first, for all who wonders about the new viewer and has questions about which one you can use best, let's start with lost clothes and hairpieces (which can be a pretty big problem in itself :-)

Liza Deischer: hi QT

Qt Core: hi Liza

Qt Core: don't know (i may see to be slow.... just started my fight with the new viewer ;-)

Liza Deischer: :-)

Liza Deischer: hi Bleu

Bleu Oleander: hi!

Liza Deischer: well, I crashed a few times today, with Emerald and the new viewer

Liza Deischer: I hink Eden has spread a virus :-)

Qt Core: the first lovely thing the new viewer made my party outfit disappear, have to check if i still have the t-shirt

Liza Deischer: yes, it happens

Liza Deischer: but it is should be still there

--BELL--

Qt Core: and making me going back to some week for my outfit!

Liza Deischer: I lost a shoe and my hair when I came in with the new viewer

Liza Deischer: yes, see what you mean (looking at QT's old outfit)

Liza Deischer: but it should be still in your invent

Liza Deischer: all my stuff was too, just got undressed by using the new viewer :-)

Liza Deischer: and if I change clothing in emerald, the same thing happens,again when I go back to the new viewer

Qt Core: still present, found it

Liza Deischer: should be

Liza Deischer: ah partyman is back

Qt Core: ok, may have do save it as pabrty ;-)

Liza Deischer: :-)

Liza Deischer: I like the collar in the shirt

Bleu Oleander: thanks!

Qt Core: i like it too, even if in the beginning i thought it was an inverted tan line ;-)

Bleu Oleander: ha!

Liza Deischer: :-)

Qt Core: i'm going to make a lot of errors with only one window for moving the camera and its orientation

Liza Deischer: yes, I don't think that is an improvement

Liza Deischer: you need to switch all the time

Bleu Oleander: I don't see the need to switch to the new viewer

Liza Deischer: If you don't use the linking, there isn't any

Bleu Oleander: what's the linking?

Qt Core: until the next release of it when the old one will stop working

Liza Deischer: in the new viewer about everything is a link

Bleu Oleander: oh

Liza Deischer: groups in profiles are for instance

Liza Deischer: so you have easy access to information

Liza Deischer: besides that

Qt Core: or the new media capability of tattoo layers over the skin

Liza Deischer: linking in sl becomes much easier

Liza Deischer: because every side of a prim can be used for that purpose

Liza Deischer: but at the same time, emerald has still more features

Liza Deischer: so I'm going back and fourth, just to find out what I like best

Liza Deischer: but also getting pretty confused, because it works differently

Qt Core: the input text area has a awfully small font almost can't edit it and catch errors before sending it

Liza Deischer: true, and there is only one

Bleu Oleander: i just started using emerald ... so going to try it and see

Liza Deischer: the pictures aren't very well either

Qt Core: yes, that is the thing i'm hating most, the changes in local chat

Liza Deischer: and those small pictures seeing everywhere is nice for people much younger then I am :-)

Liza Deischer: hi Wol

Wol Euler: hello liza, bleu, qt

Bleu Oleander: hey Wol

Qt Core: hi wol

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: emerald is a good viewer

Liza Deischer: and gives you the benefit to eject people

Liza Deischer: needed to do that not so long ago, but didn't use the right viewer :-)

Qt Core: never tried it as most told me that most of the nice features are for builder/scripters

Liza Deischer: how was your free day Wol?

Wol Euler: great :)

Wol Euler: spent it all in SL

Liza Deischer: :-)

Wol Euler: quite excellent

Liza Deischer: needing some catching up to do :-)

Wol Euler: I fixed up the poseballs at my dance hall, they now rez wherever you are "on demand" rather than cluttering up the floor

Wol Euler: a minor geeky triumph

Liza Deischer: :-)

Qt Core: ;-)

Liza Deischer: but those triumphs are very nice

Wol Euler grins.

Qt Core: muggles would never got those ;-)

Wol Euler: heheheheh

Liza Deischer: muggles ?

Qt Core: the non magical people in Harry Potter universe

Qt Core: sometimes programmers like to think themselves as wizard ;-)

Wol Euler: did a lot of talking too, everyone is interested in Emerald now that they see how simplistic the new viewer is

Liza Deischer: its still the standard, not much new things

Wol Euler: exactly, but with an inflated interface.,

Wol Euler: fewer buttons and fewer features, but the UI is nonetheless larger!

Qt Core: and a lower "real viewer area" it seems

Qt Core: ;-) wol

Liza Deischer: well I like the links

Liza Deischer: but I agree that that is the only improvement

Qt Core: i find interesting that i could not kill the Talk button as i can do with the gesture/movement icone

Liza Deischer: and less features, I don't know, but they are sometimes hard to find

Already having spent more that half an hour on the viewer, QT asks for a topic and Bleu is giving us one, and an interesting one: how do our actions in sl relate to rl

Qt Core: stopping whining about SL, has someone a topic ?

Wol Euler: heheheheh

Liza Deischer: :-) I thought that was the topic

Bleu Oleander: how about "how do you apply PaB to RL"

Liza Deischer: can you say more bleu?

Bleu Oleander: the concepts we put into practice here and perhaps during the day in rl .... how does it dovetail for you?

Bleu Oleander: are they separate?

Bleu Oleander: inform each other?

Bleu Oleander: mesh totally?

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: to me they are two separate worlds,

Liza Deischer: but they do influence each other

Liza Deischer: sl to me is more experimental

Liza Deischer: sometimes it feels I can separate parts of myself

Liza Deischer: looking more closely at them

Wol Euler nods

Liza Deischer: seeing that more is going around then I imagined

Liza Deischer: because I can experiment with body, clothing, gender, the things I do, the way I act

Wol Euler smiles and nods

Wol Euler: exactly

Wol Euler: there is an overlap, a feedback, between RL and SL for the various Me's

Wol Euler: they influence each other

Bleu Oleander: yes!

Liza Deischer: yes, and it has already clarified a lot to me

Qt Core: one of the little things i notice more now in rl, but i was starting in the months before i found pab is the new things i see everyday in the streets i drives trhough ... since '93 to go to work

Bleu Oleander: helps to experiment in sl to realize you can in rl also, maybe in diff ways, but you can

Liza Deischer: well, there is one problem to that

Qt Core: i should have memorized them by now ;-)

Liza Deischer: how much time do you spent in sl :-)

Liza Deischer: but it certainly is possible in my vies

Liza Deischer: view

Liza Deischer: (vies means dirty in Dutch :-))

Bleu Oleander: :)

Liza Deischer: and for my 'practice' it is, but also making the process slower (and more intensified: comment Liza)

Liza Deischer: but everything I do here, is not separated from rl, it just can't be

Wol Euler: yes

Bleu Oleander: right

Wol Euler: this is just as real as RL

Liza Deischer: brb

Wol Euler: the friendships, the emotion, the changes.

Wol Euler: it's about people, not pixels.

Bleu Oleander: yes, all valid real experiences

Bleu Oleander: can be about pixels, but more interesting when it's about people

Wol Euler: yes, sure, it is entirely possible to "play" SL as a shallow video game

Wol Euler: (philosophically shallow)

Bleu Oleander: or just build

Wol Euler: :)=

Liza Deischer: if sl and rl get separated, then you start to live in a dreamworld

Liza Deischer: but if they influence each other, sl can be a great tool

I introduce Darren to the discussion, my male-alt. QT would like to make one, but is struggling with the name

Liza Deischer: btw, if you wonder where Darren was coming from last night

Liza Deischer: he's my alt

Wol Euler: :)

Liza Deischer: and that guy learned me a lot :-)

Wol Euler: we should have an alts-only theme session :)

Qt Core: ;-) (still trying to get a decent name until i loose interest in making an alt ;-)

Liza Deischer: :-)

Bleu Oleander: oh fun!

Liza Deischer: you just make one and a decent name will come up

Liza Deischer: that is at least the way it works for me

Wol Euler: just keep hitting "refresh"

Liza Deischer: yes

Liza Deischer: until you get tired :-)

Qt Core: yes, hoping it isn't just already taken but not pin the list

Liza Deischer: you'll find out very soon

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: did you hesitate that much with this avi QT?

Qt Core: no, had the Core last name almost immediately and loved the pairing

Liza Deischer: so what makes you hesitate now?

Liza Deischer: You know you get used to the name, as you get used to your own given by birth

Qt Core: as i got an idea i thought was nice and would like to have a specific last name

Liza Deischer: ah

Qt Core: but peobably with so many user it is already taken

Liza Deischer: well, I guess there are some things in life you just need to accept :-)

We are closing in on the concept of alts, even on sl the most extreme way to experiences different aspects in yourself, especially when there is a change of gender. Here the discussion slowly starts to show a subtle but a big difference in the way alts are used and perceived. It starts with a good question from Bleu

Bleu Oleander: are there Alt concepts in rl?

Wol Euler: In a way I think there are, Bleu, in special contexts

Bleu Oleander: i think so too

Qt Core: yes, the work related one, the fun-related one and the family one i think

Wol Euler: people might have certain nicknames that are only used by the group of friends that they bowl with every thursday since 8 years, for example

Wol Euler: that would become a specific name and set of behaviors too

Bleu Oleander: so can change name, look, behaviors in rl too

Wol Euler: well, bodily changes are harder and slower :)

Wol Euler: and more expensive

Liza Deischer: hahah

Bleu Oleander: the money is big diff

Qt Core: thinking about young people in nice suits during the day and in rags in the night in discos

Bleu Oleander: but lots of ways to disguise your look in rl

Bleu Oleander: makeup, hair, clothes can create an alt

Wol Euler nods

Liza Deischer: yes, or environment

Bleu Oleander: I think money and ease of doing are the only diffs

Liza Deischer: hmm, I disagree

Liza Deischer: there is more to it

Liza Deischer: you can't switch that easily form one body outlook to another

Liza Deischer: you can change clothing and all of that

Bleu Oleander: why not?

Liza Deischer: but changing gender for example is more hard

Bleu Oleander: gender is hard but not impossible

Bleu Oleander: "tootsie"

Wol Euler: but pretty final, compared to that checkbox in SL

Liza Deischer: true, to a certain extend

Liza Deischer: well, you can do a lot with clothing and appearances

Bleu Oleander: but you really haven't changed gender .... same brain

Liza Deischer: but in the end it is not the same

Liza Deischer: no not true

Liza Deischer: changing gender is really an amazing thing

Bleu Oleander: even if your alt is op gender .... it's still your brain

Liza Deischer: it isn't all about you're brains

Bleu Oleander: how so?

Wol Euler: hmmmm. You're right, but I disagree :)

Liza Deischer: I physically feel different when I'm Darren

Bleu Oleander: ha!

Wol Euler: wol is definitely different to Udge, their conversational styles are entirely different

Wol Euler: her friends list is 3x as long as his

Liza Deischer: there is a change in flow, in energy

Bleu Oleander: ok, I physically feel diff at a costume party too

Bleu Oleander: if I go as op gender

Wol Euler: these are not things that I try to do, they just happen (wu wei again)

Liza Deischer: but everybody knows who you are

Bleu Oleander: but it's all coming from you

Liza Deischer: my 'Darren' comes into places where liza doesn't

Wol Euler: but which "me"?

Bleu Oleander: you are the core of both

Bleu Oleander: it's all you

Liza Deischer: yes it is

Bleu Oleander: you may act diff

Liza Deischer: you are right bleu

Bleu Oleander: but still you

Wol Euler: it is a different bit of me, a part that is usually not expressed

Wol Euler: in Maxine's phrase, a minority personality

Bleu Oleander: ok, but still you

Liza Deischer: but it is like some things don't come up that easily

Liza Deischer: and come up more easily in a different body

Bleu Oleander: the environment brings out diff personalities

Bleu Oleander: and so does the way you present yourself

Liza Deischer: and that can be to such an extend that it surprises you completely

Wol Euler nods.

I start to feel that Bleu isn't able to understand my position (or Wol's if I can speak for her, but looking at her answers I think I can). Of course it is all me. And as QT pointed out we show different sides of ourselves also in rl, we do that at least a few times a day: the one that is working, the family man, and so on, even to about every person we meet, we put up different faces. In that respect you can ask yourself who I is or what our 'core' is.

But when an avatar of alt in sl shows something that has been hidden there throughout your life, it is an amazing thing to meet these 'I''s in yourself. To me it was an eye-opener, but also one that is also surrounded by a lot of pain, because apparently those parts of the personality never were able to show themselves. I knew those parts were somewhere there, but the people who surrounded me, obviously saw something different. And in order to adapt myself, I tried to forget about those weird, odd feelings. Not that I made a conscious decision about that, it just grower on me. And putting it out in rl is not an easy option for the sheer reason that I already experienced that it is not the place to go to act out everything that is in myself, not even knowing where to start, because it has been suppressed for so many years.

To someone who is able to show who she/he is in the rl, it is just a concept you can play with. To me it is far more serious then that. I just start to learn how to play with it, but still feel the pain that has been conflicted on me. Just after the session I realized how attached I was at that moment in the discussion to my own pain. But at this moment in the discussion I felt the irritation coming up that I feel a lot of times if I feel somebody just can't or won't listen to what I have to say. So my pain gets accompanied by a feel of irritation.

Bleu Oleander: so if you present yourself as diff gender the world will treat you diff

Wol Euler: I was amazed to discover that my alts have desires that "I" do not share

Liza Deischer: yes, quite right

Liza Deischer: it is still you, but surprisingly different

Wol Euler: mmhmm

Bleu Oleander: you may have desires through them, but still is you

Wol Euler: what does "still" mean?

Qt Core: I wonder isn't that "only" role play and not being different ?

Bleu Oleander: always coming from your brain

Liza Deischer: and to me having a lot of question throughout my life about my male-side

Liza Deischer: still feeling a woman

Bleu Oleander: like an actor

Bleu Oleander: in a role

Liza Deischer: it was amazing too discover

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: with 'still' I mean, it is also a part of me

Wol Euler: this is not roleplay, I am not "inventing a personality" or "playing out a scene" here

Liza Deischer: exactly

Bleu Oleander: sure are

Bleu Oleander: if you are using another gender

Bleu Oleander: you've created a mask

Bleu Oleander: that affects how people react to you

Qt Core: trying to imagine what i would do differently as a female av, can't really come out worth something

Wol Euler: that is how I know that this is not roleplay: because I am not doing anything differently, but I am being different

Wol Euler: this is a natural voice, just as Udge's voice is

Qt Core: at most getting more hair as male ones are quite bad ;-)

Bleu Oleander: then they are both you

Liza Deischer: it is definetely not a mask

Liza Deischer: on the contrary, finally I can put down my mask

Bleu Oleander: having an av that is a diff gender is a mask

Liza Deischer: because nobody tells me or letting me feel what I should be

Bleu Oleander: it's not who you are

Liza Deischer: who says so?

Bleu Oleander: your feeling are valid

Liza Deischer: we have a way as society to look at persons

Bleu Oleander: right

Liza Deischer: if you're a woman you need to act in a certain way

Bleu Oleander: not necessarily

Oh, I heard that phrase a thousand times, no, maybe not for a lot of us, but it is to me. So for a moment my irritation gets the better of me

Liza Deischer: everyone that tells me that you can easily shake it of

Liza Deischer: doesn't know what he is talking about

Liza Deischer: in sl you can

Bleu Oleander: I don't think so

Liza Deischer: you're get more influenced by how people think about you then most people realize

Bleu Oleander: only superficially

Superficially? Yes Bleu, if you do fit in quite easily and are able to 'play' with the rest in your life, I can imagine it feels that way. But for me there is only a very simple answer to that:

Liza Deischer: no

Liza Deischer: if you fit in well, then you can think like that

Bleu Oleander: yes exactly

Liza Deischer: I'm a lesbian with a strong male-feeling

Liza Deischer: I don't fit in

Bleu Oleander: the way people react to the way you present yourself

Liza Deischer: and doing so in a negative, judgmental way

Liza Deischer: and that starts to happen at the age of 0

Bleu Oleander: I think we're saying the same thing

Well, in the way I look at it that remark is both true and false: I think we have the same starting point, but I think the experiences we have with this concept are quite different

Liza Deischer: From birth you build up an identity that fits you best according to what people ask from you

Bleu Oleander: people react to your presented self

Liza Deischer: you just want to fit in

Liza Deischer: maybe, I'm not sure :-)

It is really hard to say if we really do misunderstand each other, or that we just disagree. But being in this discussion over and over again with so many people, I think that I refer to something with which Bleu has no experience with (but also knowing that maybe those experiences are getting in the way to listen more carefully). And I have noticed so many times that (myself included) we only can think in the frames that we are familiar with. It is hard to think out of the 'box'.

Bleu Oleander: I think we're very influenced by the way others think about us

Bleu Oleander: I agree with you

Bleu Oleander: we do however edit that presentation all the time to fit the desired reaction we want

Bleu Oleander: even in sl we do that

Liza Deischer: but sl gives more opportunities

Bleu Oleander: only money and ease diff

Bleu Oleander: rl has lots of opps too

Liza Deischer: hmmmmm

Bleu Oleander: if facelifts cost L$10 .....

Bleu Oleander: we would all have lots of alts in rl

Liza Deischer: no, I don't think so

Liza Deischer: Rl is a different world to me

Liza Deischer: it asks different things

Liza Deischer: a job

Liza Deischer: children maybe

Liza Deischer: a house you live in

Liza Deischer: the things you buy for at least 6 or 7 years

Bleu Oleander: lots of same issues in sl, maybe not children

Liza Deischer: and with which you surround yourself

Liza Deischer: no job

Bleu Oleander: diff money scale

Liza Deischer: no things I buy that last long

Liza Deischer: no place to live in even that last long

Finally there is only one thing that I can say:

Liza Deischer: You're just not in this place Bleu

Bleu Oleander: right

Bleu Oleander: same person here or in rl

Bleu Oleander: using few or many alts

Bleu Oleander: diff AO's

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: well,I guess I have said everything about it that I can

Wol Euler: phone, sorry

Bleu Oleander: interesting conversation!

Liza Deischer: not to me Bleu

Bleu Oleander: why?

Liza Deischer: because it is another denial of an essential part of me that I have encountered all my life

Liza Deischer: from age 0

Bleu Oleander: why have you denied it?

I did? I do now, true, but that is not where it started, and at this age, living with those 'issues' and denying them for such a long time, it is not that easy to find out what it is exactly what I am denying. It is sl that opened my eyes a little bit more.

And I do understand that in a (superficial) way this can be an interesting topic, a playful thing. With Bleu's remark about this being an 'interesting conversation' it is obvious to me that she doesn't understand where I'm 'coming from'. And to me those people, like Bleu, are the lucky ones :-). She can't know that besides the denial of my personality there is also a deep psychological trauma that has got connected to this feelings of pain. Sometimes answers aren't easy to get.

Bleu Oleander: if it's not too personal

Liza Deischer: I told you I've said everything about it that I can

Bleu Oleander: k

And here I ended the discussion. Maybe not in the right way, but I feel that we can go over the stuff again and again, and still misunderstand each other. It is the way as I said, there are no new arguments that I can bring to the discussion and I didn't have the wish to torture myself any longer or keep the other one in a loop. I do feel the difference between what Bleu is trying to put forward and my own pain. And I am the one that needs to deal with the pain, not Bleu (with the help of a few others that do understand, which is crucial to the process that I am in, because there are things you can't solve only by yourself - it took me a long time to accept that :-)-).

Liza Deischer: I claimed the log today, because the GoC isn't here

Liza Deischer: for my own sake I leave the last part out

well, not true :-), because I do think that these kind of experiences are also a part of PaB. I hope that I put the story in a perspective that is acceptable to both Bleu and me.

But of all the discussion we have had at PaB, this was the most difficult one, not being able of not making it a personal issue. After starting to look more closely to myself, I know why. I've learned to make the separation between the moment here and now, and all the moments in the past of which those difficult feelings are coming from, only being triggered in the here and now, and very real to me, but not 'suitable' to the situation.

Qt Core: ty

Wol Euler nods

Wol Euler: sure, edit away.

Liza Deischer: I need to go

Liza Deischer: see you

Qt Core: bye Liza

Wol Euler: goodnight liza, take care

Bleu Oleander: c u Liza

Bleu Oleander: take care

Wol Euler: I'm going to move on too, goodnight

Qt Core: 'night wol, sleep well

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: sorry afk .... bye Wol, Qt :)

Qt Core: np

Qt Core: bye Bleu

Bleu Oleander: bye Qt