2010.04.16 13:00 - Theme session: Liza's meditation project

Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database.

 

Liza Deischer: hey Yaku

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey liza, long time no see :)

Liza Deischer: no, so I'm glad to be here :-)

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen

Liza Deischer: hey Zen

Liza Deischer: brb

Zen Arado: Hi Yaku, Liza

--BELL--

Qt Core: Hi all!

Zen Arado: Hi Qt :)

Yakuzza Lethecus: hi qt

Zen Arado: Hi Pema :)

Zen Arado: Hi Sharon :)

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ssl,pema

SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone

Liza Deischer: hi QT

Qt Core: Hi Pema, SSL

Liza Deischer: hi Pema

Zen Arado: we dropped out and dropped in :)

Pema Pera: Hi Liza, Zen, Yaku, Qt, Sharon!

Pema Pera: and hi Agatha!

Liza Deischer: Hi Sharon, Agatha

Agatha Macbeth: Hello everybody :)

Zen Arado: Hi Agatha :)

Yakuzza Lethecus: hi aga

Yakuzza Lethecus: anyone knows when wol is or will fly to sf ?

Qt Core: hi agatha

Liza Deischer: no, I don't

Pema Pera: no, I haven't heard from Wol at all yet

Liza Deischer: Ihope she will be able too

Zen Arado: don't think there is any flying allowed yet?

Qt Core: Hi Eliza

Liza Deischer: hi Eliza

Zen Arado: Hi Eliza:)

Agatha Macbeth: Liz :)

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone! :)

Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, they closed nearly all german airports today

Pema Pera: Gaya will fly on Tuesday now, it turns out

Liza Deischer: not till at least tomorrow morning

Pema Pera: hi Eliza!

SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everuone who arrived, and brb

Liza Deischer: and then there are still a lot of passengers waiting

Eliza Madrigal: apologies ... a bit late picking up my children :)

Liza Deischer: you're on time Eliza, no worries

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Qt Core: and tomorrow even italian airport are starting to close

Agatha Macbeth: Eek

Qt Core: the northern ones

Zen Arado: N.Ireland airports are open again I hear

Eliza Madrigal: Seems a good sign, Zen :)

Zen Arado: we are at the edge of the ash cloud though

Agatha Macbeth: Ashes to ashes....

Zen Arado: dust to dust...

Eliza Madrigal: Would everyone like to begin today's theme session? I know Liza has prepared quite well... I have notecards to give each of you also :)

Agatha Macbeth: Fun to funky?

Zen Arado: sure

Eliza Madrigal: :) Excellent. ::hands the mic to Liza::::

Liza Deischer: okay thans eliza

Liza Deischer: not so long ago Wol, Eliza and I did an experiment, doing a meditation lead by me

Liza Deischer: and I asked Cal, who can't be here tonight, to look over my shoulder, during the set up and evaluations

Liza Deischer: to me it was new to do a meditation in sl and I asked Wol and Eliza to be present to see if my approach of meditation could mean something for PaB

Liza Deischer: so this theme-session of tonight is about to see if there might be an interest from PaB members in a serie meditation session, outside the regular PaB meetings

Zen Arado: Hi Wol

Liza Deischer: Eliza and Wol will share there experiences with you in a moment, but let me first tell you something about the how and why

Agatha Macbeth waves to Wol

Wol Euler: hello everyone, sorry I'm late

Liza Deischer: adn Wol is just comingin, hi Wol :-)

Pema Pera: hi Wol !

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol, Glad you made it :)

Liza Deischer: We talk a lot in PaB about dropping and about letting go of (the attachment of) feelings, thoughts or the emotions we have

Liza Deischer: my name wouldn't be Liza :) if I wouldn't have asked myself: how does that work, how do we do that? I mean, how does that really work?

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Liza Deischer: what happens when we really drop something?

Liza Deischer: and what is a feeling or thought without the attachment?

Pema Pera: :)

Liza Deischer: I guess dropping (the attachment) is actually doing a few things to us

Liza Deischer: first we stop with what we are doing and get some kind of feeling of the here and now

Liza Deischer: secondly by doing so, we create openness, because by dropping something we make space

Liza Deischer: and if we are also willing to look at what is happening at that moment within ourselves, we even can open up to other layers of who we think we are

Liza Deischer: by doing so we create freedom in the choices we make

Liza Deischer: just a few thoughts of mine

Eliza Madrigal: Wonderful Liza, that's very clear

Liza Deischer: but what does openness really mean, what does it mean to you, what can you do with it, how can it make you more free and how can we find this openness?

Liza Deischer: there is a lot to say about those questions and we prove that by talking about it in the sessions a lot

Liza Deischer: but I realized that a lot of answers to that is in the experiences we have not in how we think about them

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: if we can look close (or closer) to our experiences, we can learn more about the patterns we use and why we are using them

Pema Pera: that's a nice and very thoughtful way of posing central questions, Liza!

Liza Deischer: thanks Pema

Liza Deischer: our experiences are even giving us clues about how we can create more openness and giving us more choices

Liza Deischer: the 9 sec. is giving us a great tool to get closer to those experiences

Liza Deischer: but we can even get closer if we take the time for ourselves to sit down and have a good look

Liza Deischer: meditation is a tool with which we are able to do that

Liza Deischer: with meditation we are able to look more closely to our own experiences

Liza Deischer: we do that by creating a situation in which we are less distracted and by using techniques to let all the things that can distract, go

Liza Deischer: if we do that we can make our selves more open to anything that wants to appear to us

Liza Deischer: and then we can get surprised by certain feelings, or suddenly understand why we do the things we do in that particular way

Liza Deischer: and that understanding is not coming from our 'head' but comes from deeper inside of us

Liza Deischer: don't ask me from where :-)

SophiaSharon Larnia: :)

Liza Deischer: I have learned and still use a meditation technique in which I work with a so called meditation-object.

Liza Deischer: that meditation-object is something that is always there with us, we can't misplace or loose it

Liza Deischer: and that is our own breathing

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Liza Deischer: so I came up with this idea to organize a few sessions, 4 to start with, especially for members of PaB to be able to learn if this meditation is something that you can benefit from

Liza Deischer: I know there are a lot of you who are meditating, but I also know, out of my own experience, how hard it can be to do that on your own

Liza Deischer: to give you a better picture of what I have in mind.....

Liza Deischer: besides the 'real' meditation of dropping and the concentrating on our breathing, I will also do some bodywork

Liza Deischer: small and slow physical, exercises which will make it easier to ground yourself

Wol Euler: hello EanAtan, I'll give you an intro to the group in IM

Liza Deischer: but will also give you the opportunity to learn more about your body and the connections with your emotions and thoughts

EanAtan Icthan: (hy - this is bertram - half incognito) ... ;-)

SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi :)

Wol Euler grins

Liza Deischer: hi :-)

Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Wol, and Ean :) Then I'll give you a note about our theme session today ;-D

Pema Pera: Hi BertAtan!

Agatha Macbeth: (Oh dear)

Liza Deischer: last, but not least I will also use visualizations to ease the way to a more concentrated state

EanAtan Icthan: lol - didn't want to interrupt ! :-)

Liza Deischer: these visualizations can also bring you into contact to certain aspects of yourself and make them more clear to you

Liza Deischer: so even to those who has his own practice, this could be interesting, since every practice uses his own techniques

Liza Deischer: okay, this is about what I had to say

Eliza Madrigal: :) ::: claps::: thank you for such a clear presentation, Liza

Liza Deischer: to get a some information on how it could work, I would like to ask Wol and Eliza to share their experiences

Liza Deischer: thanks Eliza

Zen Arado: thanks Liza

Eliza Madrigal: Sure

SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you Liza :)

Liza Deischer: yw

Liza Deischer: but first Wol I think everyone here first would like to know if you will be able to get to SF

Wol Euler laughs

Eliza Madrigal smiles, yes

Wol Euler: I would like to know that too.

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Wol Euler: but God isn't answering my calls.

Wol Euler shrugs.

Eliza Madrigal: maybe god is meditating

Liza Deischer: Jeez

Eliza Madrigal: (sorry)

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Liza Deischer: you're not in much luck with your flights

Wol Euler: Appreciate the Presence of High-Atmospheric-Dust as a Presentation by Being :)

Eliza Madrigal: :)))

Liza Deischer: :-)

Pema Pera: hehehe

SophiaSharon Larnia: I had a dream i was in another country driving, i think i was looking for an airport that was open

Wol Euler: heh

Liza Deischer: well, I'm afraid whole Europe is shutting down

Pema Pera: hi Sophia!

Wol Euler nods

SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Sophia

Agatha Macbeth: It might as well

Zen Arado: Hi Sophia

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sophia :))

Wol Euler: hello sophia, long time no see

Liza Deischer: hi Sophia

EanAtan Icthan: and i sit in ireland and don't come home *gr* ...

Wol Euler: oh wow

EanAtan Icthan: hey sophia ! :-)

Liza Deischer: ah yes, that's true

Pema Pera: You're in Ireland, Bert? And now your vacation is extended?

--BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: Salaam Sophia :)

EanAtan Icthan: yes. wanted to go back tomorrow _ canceled

Wol Euler nods.

Wol Euler: Munich was the last German airport open, it closed at sunset today

Pema Pera: volcanic sunset :-)

Wol Euler: yes, at and because of :)

Agatha Macbeth: Hardly krakatoa mind you...

EanAtan Icthan: and have to pay one more flight after another may be lol until i get all back then, hopefully *gr* ;-)

Wol Euler: fortunately!

SophiaSharon Larnia: back to the topic Liza, what sort of visualizations? (seeing a lovely red sunset and becoming somewhat alarmed!)

Liza Deischer: good question Sharon

Eliza Madrigal: Yes, that might be a great thing for you to say more about Liza, then Wol and I can share

SophiaSharon Larnia: (oops forgot sorry )

Liza Deischer: but first mayb Wol and Eliza can tell something about that

Eliza Madrigal: Ah, okay :)

Liza Deischer: then I will get further into that

Wol Euler looks at Eliza. Want to go first?

Liza Deischer: Eliza would you like to start

Eliza Madrigal: Well what I can share is that first, Liza's voice is perfectly suited for this...

Eliza Madrigal: and that she is quite patient... measured, so that one might really relax and 'go along' in a sense...

Eliza Madrigal: and that I find her technique very much 'non-intrusive'

Eliza Madrigal: using gentle imagery... really quite surprising. Also, she takes her time, breaking the meditation into distinct parts and allowing one to hm...

Eliza Madrigal: get used to deeper relaxation perhaps.

Eliza Madrigal: Those are my first thoughts... Wol?

Wol Euler: well, I really enjoyed the practice session. It was surprising in several ways

Wol Euler: I had my eyes closed much of the time, and with Liza's voice in my ears I entirely forgot that we were physically separated

Wol Euler: I "felt" very much together with E and L.

Eliza Madrigal nods

Wol Euler: there was quite a bit of "body work", guided movement

Wol Euler: and that too became a kind of mantra as we did it

Wol Euler: I was amazed at how my sense of time simply fell away

Wol Euler: I thought we'd been working for about 25 minutes, but really it was over 90.

Wol Euler grins

Liza Deischer: yes, I remember :-)

Eliza Madrigal: True!

Wol Euler: It was great, I really enjoyed and benefited from it

Eliza Madrigal: yes me too.... Glad that you mentioned the body work aspect also Wol, because I felt that was important

Eliza Madrigal: too

Wol Euler: and would recommend it

Liza Deischer: yes, the bodywork is an important aspect

SophiaSharon Larnia: bodywork,the term is not new to me, in which way?

Liza Deischer: it prevents you from a mind that is flowing away :-)

Wol Euler: "yoga" might be a related term :)

Liza Deischer see a brain flowing away :-)

SophiaSharon Larnia: nods

Wol Euler: in that instance, small repetitive movements, circling, cycles of motion

Wol Euler: but tiny controlled movements, not like aerobics class

Liza Deischer: NO

Wol Euler: "bodyfulness" instead of mindfulness :)

Liza Deischer: ah, nice word, bodyfulness

Pema Pera: :)

Wol Euler: awareness of the body, of the feeling of motion

Liza Deischer: but that is the idea yes

Eliza Madrigal: yes, very subtle, basic... perhaps why effective..

Liza Deischer: those are very simple practices

Liza Deischer: anybody can do

Liza Deischer: you don't need to get your body in a terrible posision

Wol Euler grins and nods

SophiaSharon Larnia: :)

Liza Deischer: and the slow moving is important

SophiaSharon Larnia: haha

Liza Deischer: the slow and repetetive movement

Liza Deischer: making it a meditation of its own

Liza Deischer: and making it easier to focus on your body

Eliza Madrigal: and easily incorporated here also, I found myself thinking... that I often correct posture, but hm.... why not stretch a little... let the body partake of the pause, in a way

Eliza Madrigal: nods

Wol Euler nods.

Liza Deischer: and getting grounded a bit more

Liza Deischer: yes and when yet get more used to it

Liza Deischer: you can also start to focus on certain aspects

Liza Deischer: for instance

Liza Deischer: there is always a moment of resistence

Liza Deischer: where the body starts to protets

Liza Deischer: it give you a nice and gentle way to see closer how that feels and how you react

--BELL--

EanAtan Icthan: ((sry - leave again - ty all , look forward to see ya all again - have a graet time plz ! ... *wave*))

Wol Euler: bye ean

SophiaSharon Larnia: bye EanAtan :)

Pema Pera: bye Ean!

Liza Deischer: bye ean

Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bert

Zen Arado: bye Ean

Liza Deischer: you also asked about the guided meditation Sharon

SophiaSharon Larnia: yes

Liza Deischer: I don't know if Eliza and Wol can say more about that?

Zen Arado: Hi Bleu :)

Bleu Oleander: hi everyone

Eliza Madrigal: Hello Bleu :) One moment and I'll give you a note :)

Pema Pera: hi there Bleu!

Liza Deischer: hi Bleu

Agatha Macbeth: Hello Bleu

Bleu Oleander: thx

SophiaSharon Larnia: brb

sophia Placebo: hi bleu

Eliza Madrigal: The visualization Liza used for us, was one of the sun.... of warmth... natural

Bleu Oleander: (internet was down for over an hour!)

Eliza Madrigal: Oh, no fun that Bleu :) glad you made it

Liza Deischer: yes it is not really a guided meditation, but a vizualisatio

Liza Deischer: then can bring up a certain aspect

Liza Deischer: with Wol and Eliza I used the sun

Liza Deischer: but it can also be a grounding exercise, like feeling you really root into the ground

Liza Deischer: both are different aspects, because the sun is more placed in the upper part of the body

Liza Deischer: and gives other 'information' then when you focus on a grounding exercise

Liza Deischer: the idea is that I will use different kinds

Liza Deischer: and then you can see for yourself what works best with you

Eliza Madrigal: Right. the 'parts' are common to guided visualizations .... but Liza's technique was one that gave one a real sense of learning to 'let go step by step '... as Wol mentioned, the time aspect especially

Liza Deischer: a guided meditation guids you to something

Liza Deischer: a visualization is more a concentration on a certain aspect

Qt Core: need to go, bye all

sophia Placebo: bye Qt

Pema Pera: bye Qt

Eliza Madrigal: Bye Qt, thanks

Wol Euler: buona notte, qt

Liza Deischer: bye QT

Agatha Macbeth: Ciao QT :)

Zen Arado: bye Qt

Liza Deischer: okay 5 minutes left on the clock

Liza Deischer: so let me wrap it up a little

Liza Deischer: I would like to start with four meditations

Liza Deischer: just to see if there is interest and if this might work for us

Liza Deischer: after that anything can happen

Liza Deischer: the sessions will take place at my place

Liza Deischer: that is called the Shift

Liza Deischer: I made it for this kind of purposes

Pema Pera: nice name!

Eliza Madrigal: :)

Liza Deischer: it is small (6 seets beside myself) and I think it is important to work with small groups

Liza Deischer: :-)

Liza Deischer: for maximum result

Liza Deischer: our session took over 90 minutes being with the two of us

Liza Deischer: with more people it will also take more time

Liza Deischer: but I will cut it down to 60 minutes, 90 tops

Wol Euler grins

Eliza Madrigal: :))

Liza Deischer: that means that I am going to very with the elements that we can use

Liza Deischer: like sometimes we do a 'bodymindfulness' and another time we will get more into the visiualization

Liza Deischer: I don't want to keep you there for hours :-)

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: (look forward to reading the log since I missed the session .... c u all!)

Wol Euler: bye bleu, take care

Liza Deischer: bye Bleu

sophia Placebo: bye beu

Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Bleu, and Pema

Agatha Macbeth: Night Bleu

Zen Arado: what about posture? IN Zen we think it important to keep the back straight

Liza Deischer: bye Pema

Pema Pera: thank you very much, Liza, and Wol and Eliza too!

Zen Arado: bye Bleu, Pema

Pema Pera: bfn

sophia Placebo: bye pema

Wol Euler: bye pema, hope to see you soon

Pema Pera: me 2 !

Agatha Macbeth: C ya Pem

Liza Deischer: well Wol reminded me of telling you something, then I get to your question Zen

Eliza Madrigal: Also Liza, as a practical matter, how would you like people to contact you if they'd like to partake?

Zen Arado: worry that in RL people are lying on a sofa or something

Liza Deischer: I will use Voice

Liza Deischer: because I need my voice and the timing of it to guide you into meditation

Liza Deischer: and if I ask to close your eyes, it will be pretty hard to read the chatlines :-)

Wol Euler: (you won't need to speak, but you will need to listen)

SophiaSharon Larnia: bye all have to go (sorry distracted)

Zen Arado: bye SSL

Agatha Macbeth: Bye Sharon :)

Liza Deischer: yes, becuase for in between the diferent elements

Liza Deischer: we can also use the chat

sophia Placebo: g2g as well , bye all

Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sophia (and SophiaSharon)

Liza Deischer: at those moments I will ask you about your experiences

Zen Arado: bye Sopia

Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for coming :)

Agatha Macbeth: Bye Soph

Liza Deischer: Your question Zen

Liza Deischer: posture is more important in Zen then in my kind of meditation

Eliza Madrigal: I'll need to go also, but I want to thank you again for such a clear presentation, Liza. And thanks Yakuzza, for letting us use your session!

Liza Deischer: but it is important anyway

Zen Arado: bye Eliza

Yakuzza Lethecus: it's fine not to have the friday sillynes :)

Liza Deischer: what I do is to give the basics

Yakuzza Lethecus: onigokko

Liza Deischer: bye eliza and thanks

Eliza Madrigal: oh that may be coming

Eliza Madrigal: hahahah

Yakuzza Lethecus: stop

Eliza Madrigal giggles

Eliza Madrigal: Oh! Also Liza, Bye and thanks again *hugs*

Wol Euler: bye eliza, take care

Eliza Madrigal: (that was two sentences but they came together well-hah)

Liza Deischer: with the physical 'exercises' i will get more intoe that

Agatha Macbeth: Night Liz :))

Liza Deischer: but in a more natural way

Liza Deischer: looking for you own balance

Liza Deischer: feeling it instead of somebody telling you how to do it

Liza Deischer: I found out that works best

Zen Arado: ok thanks

Liza Deischer: but I do give a bases

Liza Deischer: well, or the log and fo the ones still here

Liza Deischer: If you are interested, let me know

Liza Deischer: then i can see with how many people we are

Liza Deischer: because maybe we need to different groups

Zen Arado: depends on the time too though

Liza Deischer: it depends

Liza Deischer: yes I understand, but that is hard for me to say right now

Yakuzza Lethecus: i would definetivly come

Liza Deischer: I don't know the day yet, but for the time

Liza Deischer: I have 11.30 am slt in my head

Liza Deischer: because I think that is about the best time when everyone can be available

Zen Arado: that is ok for me except for 2 nights per week

Liza Deischer: well, that is what I need to figure out is which night (or afternoon) will be best

Yakuzza Lethecus: not wednesdays :)

Liza Deischer: :-)

Liza Deischer: no not wednesday being the only night I'm not always available myself

Zen Arado: maybe need choice of sittings

Liza Deischer: yes Zen, depens on how many people are interested

Zen Arado: to suit people in different time zones

Liza Deischer: that too, if that is possible

Liza Deischer: oh and to make sure:

Yakuzza Lethecus: i think it wouldn't even be a problem with an overlap on pab in tim

Yakuzza Lethecus: the dream workshop also overlaps

Liza Deischer: the meditation is not religion-related-thing

Wol Euler: well, it's not ideal.

Liza Deischer: I agree with Wol

Liza Deischer: I need to ask people when they are available and need to figure out what I can do best

Wol Euler: perhaps just choose two days and times (both different) for the first two series, and announce them. People will choose which suits them best

Liza Deischer: but I will try not to interfere with the regular PaB-meetings

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: maybe I will Wol, but first I would like to see some names

Zen Arado: I can't go Tues and thurs

Liza Deischer: europeans or not

Liza Deischer: it is easier to decide that way

Zen Arado: otherwise would be interested

Liza Deischer: is noted Zen

Liza Deischer: Darren has a notecard that he can give you

Liza Deischer: I was so stupid to give it to him :-)

Liza Deischer: to make allterations

Zen Arado: would like to sit with pab 'ers

Wol Euler: :)

Liza Deischer: only Pab'ers are involved

Liza Deischer: and as a dreamer he is, he didn't gve it back to me :-)

Liza Deischer: yes Yaku , thanks :-)

Liza Deischer: just let me know in the coming week

Agatha Macbeth: TY

Liza Deischer: Zen I put you on the list

Zen Arado: thanks Liza

Liza Deischer: well, I've got nothing to say anymore

Wol Euler smiles.

Zen Arado: let me know when meditation is to take place

Wol Euler: Well done, Liza, thank you.

Liza Deischer: thanks Wol

Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, thx liza

Agatha Macbeth: Thank you

Zen Arado: thanks Liza and Wol

Liza Deischer: I hope you make it to SF wol

Wol Euler: me too. thank you

Wol Euler: but, y'know, it is what it is.

Liza Deischer: yes, I know

Wol Euler: I'm trying not to be attached to the idea of going to SF

Zen Arado: funny how we always expect things to go right for us

Zen Arado: and how often they don't

Agatha Macbeth: Bye everybody

Liza Deischer: bye Agatha

Zen Arado: who would have dreamed of a volcanic cloud?

Wol Euler: bye aggers

Zen Arado: bye Aga

Liza Deischer: well, what is right

Liza Deischer: the problem is we don't know

Zen Arado: the way we think they should go :)

Liza Deischer: if there is a rightanyway

Zen Arado: ust constructions we put on reality

Wol Euler: brb

Zen Arado: but so important to us sometimes

Liza Deischer: yes

Zen Arado: am learning not to put 'value' on things

Zen Arado: just let them be what they are

Liza Deischer: yes, but sometimes that is pretty hard

Zen Arado: yes it is

Liza Deischer: but it is a good exercise anyway

Zen Arado: our minds do it so automatically

Yakuzza Lethecus: a thought just flashed through my mind: "can dropping make us ignorant ?"

Wol Euler chuckles

Liza Deischer: no

Zen Arado: you don't have to drop your brain

Zen Arado: just be aware of what it is doing

--BELL--

Zen Arado: keep it in its place - 'the mind is a good servant but a bad master' someone said

Wol Euler: heh, yes

Zen Arado: does that make any semse?

Liza Deischer: yes

Yakuzza Lethecus: When i am sometimes in a good state of mind when i call myself nonjudgemental and not grasping then i am not skeptic but my skeptisism even lead me where i am right now

Liza Deischer: my teacher once said that there are people that have 'lucky' karma

Liza Deischer: they have a lot of good karma without being aware

Liza Deischer: in the end awareness and karam go together

Yakuzza Lethecus: i i would never have grasped and made myself suffering i wouldn't have been motivated to seek further, maybe

Zen Arado: until something bad happens....

Liza Deischer: that excludes ignorance

Liza Deischer: exactly

Liza Deischer: In Dutch we call it mazzel karam

Zen Arado: skepticiam is ok up to a point I think

Liza Deischer: mazzel being originally a hebrew word

Zen Arado: so long as it doesn't close you off too much

Liza Deischer: which really hits the nail on his head

Zen Arado: where you won't accept anything

Zen Arado: mazzel?

Liza Deischer: right Yaku

Liza Deischer: yes

Liza Deischer: eh......

Liza Deischer: just being lucky

Zen Arado: ok

Liza Deischer: but there is a ring to that word

Liza Deischer: I thought maybe, being a Hebrew word, somebody would know it

Zen Arado: not me :)

Liza Deischer: because it is closer then just being lucky

Yakuzza Lethecus: mazel tov ?

Liza Deischer: yes

Liza Deischer: it is being lucky in an ignorant way

Zen Arado: ok I better go

Zen Arado: do my RL meditation:)

Liza Deischer: kay Zen, see you

Liza Deischer: :-)

Zen Arado: bye all

Liza Deischer: for Wol's feeling of symmetrie, I'd better change places

Yakuzza Lethecus: :)

Liza Deischer: not that she is noticing it

Wol Euler: :)

Wol Euler: back

Yakuzza Lethecus: wb

Wol Euler: and grateful

Liza Deischer: wb

Liza Deischer: (this silence is nice)

Wol Euler smiles.

Yakuzza Lethecus imagines the fountain as a little volcano

Wol Euler: :)

Liza Deischer: but this one is nice and cool

Liza Deischer: I'm pretty sure Darren would like to feel that on his face :-)

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: the other one is more cruel, but also very powerful and beautiful

Wol Euler nods.

Yakuzza Lethecus: is all beauty a metter of perspective ?

Liza Deischer: interesting question

Liza Deischer: initially I should say yes

Liza Deischer: but there seem to be also a collective mind on what beauty is

Wol Euler: I'm not sure what hte question means.

Yakuzza Lethecus: dropping means for me not only to get rid of grasping but also of learning to appreciate the moment more

Yakuzza Lethecus: i implicitly not want to become stoic

Yakuzza Lethecus: i try to replace the grasping with a calm and warm feeling

Yakuzza Lethecus: so i just decide to see the beauty ?

Wol Euler: ah, I see.

Wol Euler: perhaps the answer is "yes", then, but in a different way than I first took it.

Wol Euler: not "things seem beautiful because I look at them in a certian way"

Wol Euler: but rather "everything is beautiful if you stop looking at it in the wrong way" :)

Liza Deischer: :-)

Liza Deischer: I guess it is still grasping

Liza Deischer: but grasping used in a benifitial way

Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, i think i can't escape grasping and feel that i don't even want to

Liza Deischer: I think it is a very good start

Liza Deischer: because it is so hard not to grasp

Liza Deischer: still don't know what it really means

Liza Deischer: so you make it more simple

Liza Deischer: and start with looking at things in a different way

Yakuzza Lethecus: only the graspings is shifting

Liza Deischer: yes but it initially gives you another perspective

Liza Deischer: so at least you know there is more then one truth

Yakuzza Lethecus: there will be glimpses, never truth

Liza Deischer: that is an important 'shift'

Liza Deischer: :-)

Liza Deischer: initially = immediately

Yakuzza Lethecus: i feel like floating in the own ignorance and seeing glimses in codependent arising

Yakuzza Lethecus: so right now it shifts towards communication

Yakuzza Lethecus: and getting rid of schemas

Liza Deischer: I noticed :-)

Yakuzza Lethecus: but as i get away from older there are sneaking new schemas in

Yakuzza Lethecus: not yet verbalized

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: this is so beautifl

Liza Deischer: just by watching the process

Liza Deischer: you're grapsing will get less

Yakuzza Lethecus: trust is a key issue

Liza Deischer: yes

Liza Deischer: (I should say key word, it can be an issue, but that means trouble :-))

Liza Deischer: i need to go, see some friends

Wol Euler: :)

Liza Deischer: they have been wondering where Liza was in the last few weeks :-)

Wol Euler: heheh

Wol Euler: goodnight liza, enjoy the weekend

Liza Deischer: thanks Wol for being here

Liza Deischer: see you both

Wol Euler: my pleasure, sorry I was late

Yakuzza Lethecus: take care lia

Liza Deischer: np

Yakuzza Lethecus: take care wol

Liza Deischer: cy both :-)

Wol Euler: bye yaku, enjoy the weekend