2012.05.05 13:00 - "Idiot Compassion" and "Idiot Equanimity"

The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

Alfred Kelberry: hi!
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Boxy!
Alfred Kelberry: wait, i expected at least 5 people here
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I had similar expectations...
Bruce Mowbray: but that's ok.
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Bruce Mowbray: I'd just ducked away from the keyboard to fix myself a snack when you arrived.
Alfred Kelberry: we should summon the others
Alfred Kelberry: bon appetite
Bruce Mowbray: You summon while I go back to the kitchen for a minute, OK?
Bruce Mowbray: brb -- afk
Alfred Kelberry: sure, take your time :)
Alfred Kelberry: ommmm....
Alfred Kelberry: ommmm....
Alfred Kelberry: the spirits of pab... emerge!
Alfred Kelberry: ommmm....
Alfred Kelberry: ommmm....
Alfred Kelberry: resurrect from the ashes of real life!
Bruce Mowbray: [back]
Alfred Kelberry: ommmm....
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Alfred Kelberry: ok, did the mantra. let's wait and see now.
Bruce Mowbray: Hope I didn't disturb your communion with the spirits by my sudden return.
Alfred Kelberry: hehe
Bruce Mowbray: I will also try....
Bruce Mowbray: ommmmmmmmmmmmm......
Alfred Kelberry: in a sense, you were summoned :)
Bruce Mowbray: ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm......
Bruce Mowbray: Oh phantoms of PaB, emerge!!!
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Bruce Mowbray waits....
Alfred Kelberry: well, i see several folks online
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps if I did my spirits of PaB dance....?
Alfred Kelberry: oh, kori could do that. very elegantly.
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. Too much vertigo today for THAT!
Alfred Kelberry: hey! we summoned Pema! :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Pema.
Alfred Kelberry: Pema san! :)
Bruce Mowbray makes quick run into kitchen -- will be right back.
Pema Pera: hi there, A & B !
Alfred Kelberry: our secret magic prayer has summoned you, Pema :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: [back]
Pema Pera: it's still early here, 5 am
Alfred Kelberry: neat
Bruce Mowbray: yes, we chanted magic oaths -- and I did my spirit dance.
Pema Pera: but I woke up (automatically?) so thought I might as well peek in :)
Alfred Kelberry: the birds start chirping at about 5:15
Alfred Kelberry: if you read the log after the session, you will know why :)
Bruce Mowbray: I also woke up to the birds this morning -- It was glorious!
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I also looked into that log.  http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2012/05/2012.05.05_07%3a00_-_Prejudices
Pema Pera: so I'll have to be patient?
Bruce Mowbray quickly calls up the log again.
Alfred Kelberry: I'm afraid so :)

--BELL--

Pema Pera: any other topic that you started before I arrived?
Alfred Kelberry: Pema, do you ever wake up with a headache? :)
Bruce Mowbray: nope, we were just chanting.
Alfred Kelberry: i somehow have this image that you always wake up with a smile and a lucid mind :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: you mentioned "reading the log" -- you mean of this session?
Pema Pera: the lines I missed so far?
Alfred Kelberry: yes, the beginning of it
Pema Pera: that's why I said I'd have to be patient :)
Bruce Mowbray: I was referring to the 7 a.m. log. . .    This one was mostly.... "Ommmmmmmm...."
Alfred Kelberry: where we were summoning you :)
Bruce Mowbray: I also did my spirit dance.
Pema Pera: hehehe
Bruce Mowbray: I have been pondering "Idiot Compassion" all week.
Pema Pera: yes?
Bruce Mowbray: and I think there might be a similar concept:
Bruce Mowbray: "Idiot Equanimity."
Bruce Mowbray: Speaking only for myself, now.
Pema Pera listens
Bruce Mowbray: Well, not a whole lot to say except....
Bruce Mowbray: Both Equanimity and Compassion seem to me...
Bruce Mowbray: to be aspirations.
Bruce Mowbray: and very noble ones, at that.
Bruce Mowbray: But I find, sometimes, that I take them both literally.
Alfred Kelberry: How is compassion compared to idiot compassion?
Bruce Mowbray: "NO preferences!"
Bruce Mowbray: Ouch.
Pema Pera: :)
Bruce Mowbray: I get attached to the precept as a "Law" or something.
Bruce Mowbray: and I lose my sense of balance...
Bruce Mowbray: My aspiration is to be able to witness experience with freshness of mind.
Bruce Mowbray: So, the precept reminds me of my aspiration.
Bruce Mowbray: But that doesn't mean I need to make myself a doormat.
Bruce Mowbray waits -- catches breath.
Alfred Kelberry: hmm, i don't follow you
Pema Pera: what is "idiot compassion"? (echoing Alfred's question)?
Bruce Mowbray: "Idiot Compassion" is a term coined by Trungpa..
Bruce Mowbray: and repeated by Pema Chodron.
Bruce Mowbray: I extended it into the territory of Equanimity.
Pema Pera: but what do they mean with it?
Bruce Mowbray: Pema Chodron means -- wake up to the facts of your own existence. If people are taking advantage of you because of your so-called "Compassion," then you're probably being an idiot.

http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/qa5.php

Pema Pera: the whole notion of trying to help someone else is very tricky
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully.
Pema Pera: as Stim once said:
Pema Pera: the best way to help someone is to show them that they don't need any help
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh! That's a great precept!
Pema Pera: or a bit more detailed:
Alfred Kelberry: Pema, does it mean to give them means to help themselves?
Pema Pera: "the first thing to do is to realize for yourself that there is no problem; the second thing is to share that insight with the other"
Pema Pera: no, to give them the insight that they don't need any means
Alfred Kelberry: er...
Pema Pera: hi Ewan!
Bruce Mowbray: So, in a sense, thinking that others need our help is like having an agenda...
Alfred Kelberry: ok, a kid starving in Africa. how do you do that?
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Ewan!
Pema Pera: oh, you can certainly help others, in practical ways
Bruce Mowbray: Always good to see you, Ewan.
Pema Pera: what I meant was more an attitude question
Pema Pera: as long as you think you can really help another person, from the point of view as you the actor and the other in need, you are probably going to make mistakes
Alfred Kelberry: i don't get it
Pema Pera: like looking at starving children, and not seeing the whole context
Bruce Mowbray: We've been discussing "Idiot Compassion" and "Idiot Equanimity," Ewan.
Alfred Kelberry: oh... in a condescending way?
Ewan Bonham: TY..
Pema Pera: partly that, but not necessarily

--BELL--

Ewan Bonham: Does this also relate a bit to the concept of giving a person a fish for a meal or teaching them to fish..?
Pema Pera: just trying to feed somebody starving without realizing that you are part of a detailed economic and political system that implies the starving as part of the policy is something that is likely to not be very successful -- it's like approaching a complex system and thinking you can simply "do some good" by tweaking a single dial
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps in a way that sees the person in need as "other" -- and having an agenda to help "others."
Alfred Kelberry: Pema, that's hot what Stim's quote carries
Bruce Mowbray: So, "Idiot Compassion" would, in a sense, be simplistic?
Alfred Kelberry: it says tell them they don't need help
Pema Pera: ah, you take it literally on one level
Pema Pera: any sentence carries a context
Pema Pera: so we have to figure out which :)
Alfred Kelberry: why is the need for such twisted words, if you can say it more clearly?
Pema Pera: can you say something deep in twenty words, and then glue it in place like a fossil?
Pema Pera: like a pinned-up butterfly?
Pema Pera: that seems preposterous
Pema Pera: any attempt to share some real insight through just exchanging words is a long and winding process
Pema Pera: and requires care and attention and groping in many darks
Pema Pera: don't you think?
Alfred Kelberry: it reminds me of old time priests who skewed words in order to hide the sacred knowledge
Ewan Bonham: Especially if the words are typed...
Pema Pera: not skewing words: rather realizing that every situation has many levels of meta
Bruce Mowbray: Would an explanation of many words convey the meaning better? -- Or, are such insights only really "understood" through individual experience. . . ?
Pema Pera: like in computer programming
Alfred Kelberry: haha
Alfred Kelberry: exactly that, Pema :)
Bruce Mowbray: Are you talking about Power Exchange, Boxy?
Pema Pera: if you confuse the meta level, you get into deep trouble
Pema Pera: so "no need" is meta
Pema Pera: of course you need to eat :)
Bruce Mowbray: and "no other" is also meta.
Alfred Kelberry: er... nevermind :)
Pema Pera: :)
Bruce Mowbray: The 3rd Patriarch of Zen says, "Only cherish opinions and Heaven and Earth are set against each other." (rough paraphrase)
Pema Pera: but seriously, trying to put your limited resources in just feeding someone without trying to change the economic/social/political situation is going to have very limited effect; perhaps even the opposite effect of what you intended
Bruce Mowbray: The problem, I feel, is that I identify/attach to my preferences....
Pema Pera: so you have to look at the whole situation, not at isolated concepts like "me" and "other" and "need of other to be fed by me"
Ewan Bonham: And often attach to the victims as well
Pema Pera: that is, strictly speaking, narcissistic
Bruce Mowbray: What if when I feed that person I do so in full awareness that I am taking care of my own emotional need -- not his hunger?
Pema Pera: making yourself into a little God
Bruce Mowbray: so it becomes a Power Exchange.
Pema Pera: is that clearer, Alfred? :)
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Pema Pera wants to be as clear as possible, but not clearer :)
Alfred Kelberry: Pema, that description is a clear explanation, which i think most people would prefer rather than vague "tell them they don't need help"
Pema Pera: not vague, but succinct
Pema Pera: like the DRY principle in programming: don't repeat yourself
Ewan Bonham: Smile...
Bruce Mowbray: A personal anecdote . . . ?
Pema Pera: a very good principle, but not enough to understand it by hearing just three words!
Alfred Kelberry: dry has nothing to do with it
Ewan Bonham: Altho it may be a principle to help keep important thoughts in mind..:0
Pema Pera: any few-word saying needs context and explanation
Bruce Mowbray: Last July in Halifax, I asked Stim how important "trust" was in the whole practice experience.
Bruce Mowbray: He immediately responded:
Bruce Mowbray: EVERYTHING in your practice depends upon trust.
Bruce Mowbray: Trust is basic.
Bruce Mowbray: Now, I could have taken that --- wrongly -- and made it the basis of some personal agenda.
Bruce Mowbray: But within the context of our setting -- my question/ his answer....
Bruce Mowbray: It made perfect "sense" -- and simple -- and right to what I needed to hear at that moment.
Pema Pera: btw, Alfred: I didn't say "tell them they don't need help" -- I said "let them *see* that they don't need help", which is very different
Bruce Mowbray: Don't know if this is an example of what we've been saying here -- but feel that it might relate.
Pema Pera: (sorry, can't respond to all threads at once :-)
Bruce Mowbray sits on hands.

--BELL--

Alfred Kelberry: one could say "put yourself in their context and see how you can be of use"
Pema Pera: ah, I like that! -- it implies looking at "need" in a more careful way; what is really needed?
Ewan Bonham: Yes...I agree..compassion which is true and not sympathy..
Pema Pera: "no need" meant "not the kind of need you thought was the primary problem"
Ewan Bonham: And problem oriented
Pema Pera nods
Pema Pera: trying to impose your idea of need on another is a form of arrogance
Pema Pera: but accepting the idea of "need" that the other has formed is also not right :)
Pema Pera: better together find a way to figure out what is really going on!
Pema Pera: clean the whole table of concepts
Pema Pera: starting with "no need" as a working hypothesis
Pema Pera: does that make some sense, Alfred?
Alfred Kelberry: then free market is the pinnacle of arrogance :)
Pema Pera: any fixed system is not going to work :-)
Pema Pera: no finite set of principles
Pema Pera: you need more, like "trust" as Bruce said :)
Alfred Kelberry: are there fixed systems?
Pema Pera: people try to "fix" the world with their idea of fixed systems
Pema Pera: communism, capitalism, etc
Pema Pera: not working . . .
Alfred Kelberry: oh, in this sense. i thought you meant stationary.
Pema Pera: fixed as in frozen
Pema Pera: no finite number of laws can describe all solutions for all situations
Pema Pera: better be flexible and reading to make exceptions depending on the situation
Alfred Kelberry: they're merely ideas. implementations and even more so, living models are all vastly different and evolving.
Pema Pera: yes
Bruce Mowbray: So then, the "idiot" part of "Idiot Compassion" and "Idiot Equanimity" might refer to being "fixed" in one's views.
Pema Pera: yes, and limited in scope and context
Pema Pera: like somebody having a fever and doing some bloodletting to let the fever go down
Pema Pera: it does, but . . .
Bruce Mowbray: Important to "make a great space" if one wants to "help" -- bigger than one's own ideas of what might "need" to be helped. . .
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Alfred Kelberry: Pema, wait, you said they're frozen. as in opposing to change?
Pema Pera: yes
Alfred Kelberry: ah
Pema Pera: any principles when strictly applied, lead to enormous problems
Pema Pera: very sad that in world politics the name of the game is throwing principles around . . . .
Alfred Kelberry: well, business requires clear rules of the game
Pema Pera: yes, for given situations, for sure
Pema Pera: but "market mechanism will always help" is a meta rule
Pema Pera: and "communism makes us all happy" too
Pema Pera: those are not very helpful and can do enormous damage
Pema Pera: when applied blindly
Alfred Kelberry: ah, those are utopian views
Pema Pera: yes
Alfred Kelberry: there has to be balance of varied forces
Pema Pera: and "trying to help another person" ultimately is a utopian view too
Pema Pera: likely freezing your understanding of "you" and the other
Pema Pera: as Bruce mentioned
Alfred Kelberry: hmm, i don't see it utopian at all
Pema Pera: perhaps a theme for another session?
Alfred Kelberry: not in the immediate context
Alfred Kelberry: sure
Bruce Mowbray: Sounds good.
Pema Pera: how to help
Pema Pera: could be a week's theme :)
Pema Pera: how to view the helper and the helped
Alfred Kelberry: i mean, you can twist any statement this way
Bruce Mowbray: Also, how to invite and allow "help" to emerge out of unique circumstances.
Pema Pera smiles at Boxy's view of twisting
Bruce Mowbray: and how to recognize it when in emerges.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: I must be away.
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Boxy, Pema, and Ewan.
Alfred Kelberry: anything to do with relation and hence change of context, can be put into radical terms
Alfred Kelberry: bye, Bruce!
Alfred Kelberry: Ewan :)
Ewan Bonham: And thank you all...very interesting points...and of course no definite answers...:)
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now.
Pema Pera: bye Bruce, thanks for a fun conversation! (never know whether to be polite and answer or wait for the end of the 90 seconds as alternative politeness :-)
Alfred Kelberry: i like definite answers :)
Pema Pera: that's the problem
Pema Pera: humans are not computers
Alfred Kelberry: no, it's an opportunity :)
Pema Pera: and even computers don't always allow definite answers :)
Pema Pera: the halting problem for example . . .
Alfred Kelberry: we operate in contexts, just like computers
Alfred Kelberry: and for a given context there can be a definite answer
Pema Pera: to some extent
Alfred Kelberry: poof time?
Pema Pera: sure!
Alfred Kelberry: :)
Pema Pera: fun talking again today!
Pema Pera: c u !
Alfred Kelberry: enjoy your breakfast
Pema Pera: thanks, you enjoy, let's see, an evening drink?
Alfred Kelberry: to some extent :)
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: bfn