The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

Lucinda Lavender: HI Raffi:)
Raffila Millgrove: hi Luci
Lucinda Lavender: I cannot stay for long...just visiting for a bit...
Raffila Millgrove: i was reading log where you were talking with steve.. about his experience one day.. in official capacity of giving judgement.
Raffila Millgrove: oh ok.
Lucinda Lavender: yes?
Raffila Millgrove: just wanted to say that i appreciated that you stuck with that.. cause.. even tho everyone else talked all thru and around it--that was very interesting.
Raffila Millgrove: if you hadn't stuck with steve on it.. he would not have been able to finish it.
Lucinda Lavender: Thank you!
Lucinda Lavender: I was just appreciative of the topic and his sharing...
Raffila Millgrove: so i was really glad to watch you finish that.. in spite of mass convos.. al around it.
Raffila Millgrove: when i see something happen like that.. reading a log...
Lucinda Lavender: nodding
Raffila Millgrove: well . it surprises me. because the people here aren't rude.. but obviously when two people are talking to each other. it makes sense to let them finish it. and not talk so much all around it. as tho it weren't happening. just my thought on reading it.
Raffila Millgrove: sometimes you cannot help.. that several people more or less talking at once.. but that log was very clear that a good story was being told...
Lucinda Lavender: what happens I think is that if RL pulls someone away...they do come back and try to sync again...
Raffila Millgrove: no actually in that log which i am being specific. everyone else just talked their way thru it.. as tho a story was not in progress. it's a long long time.. and surprising.
Lucinda Lavender: ah!
Lucinda Lavender: I like surprises too:)
Raffila Millgrove: (i know what you mean about rl interruptions or people suddenly arriving) but that wasn't the case in this log i am pointing to.
Lucinda Lavender: ok...
Lucinda Lavender: I will go back and look again:)
Raffila Millgrove: it was interesting. and you asked a lot of good questions of steve as he told what happened. and i think.. when you have a good example of topic on the table.. well.. then it's great.. to use it. to ask questions one at a time.. to delve deeper into it.
Lucinda Lavender: judgement is such an interesting topic for me
Raffila Millgrove: why does it interest you Luci?
Lucinda Lavender: just sensitive to when I think others are closed off by it...
Raffila Millgrove nods.
Raffila Millgrove: you have seen this? in your life?
Lucinda Lavender: I need to spend more time looking at my own I suppose as well
Raffila Millgrove: when you say that others are closed off.. can you give example.
Lucinda Lavender: sometimes people seem to have a different place/position they are coming from...and it usually is"I am right"...
Raffila Millgrove: lol
Raffila Millgrove: that is uncomfortable isn't it.. those who have to be "right" and cannot accept that there are other ideas.. that don't have to be Wrong. so that yours can be right.
Lucinda Lavender: that is where my ears perk up...
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Lucinda Lavender: some people seem to feel right...
Raffila Millgrove: a rightist does get tiresome. i love a good debate.. but it's fine to agree to have different ideas. i love hearing different ideas. i know mine already. i don't want to hear all the time..more agreement. i like to learn from soemone else's thoughts.
Lucinda Lavender: and I usually question my own positions...
Lucinda Lavender: wait for more information
Raffila Millgrove: yes.
Raffila Millgrove: if someone agrees with me. we're done. where else do we go? i like to hear a view.. esp one i didn't hear before. to stimulate my own thought.
Lucinda Lavender: yes!
Raffila Millgrove: but too it's nice sometimes to be with people who have affinity. to share and agree on things.. esp things like.. oh having a baby etc.
Raffila Millgrove: those kind of things.
Raffila Millgrove: more like comfort/support stuff.
Lucinda Lavender: issues where agreement feel like support
Raffila Millgrove: yes

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: in this judgement topic.. there are interesting studies about first impressions.. fascinating studies. which show--that we make judgements that are Correct.. about 80 percent of the time.. and can make them .. our brains process this so fast.. that we can do it off as little as 4 seconds. that is amazing isn't it? (it's not intuition.. it's very lightening fast brain... comparison of data)
Lucinda Lavender: very impressive yes!
Lucinda Lavender: I am inspired by the research done
Raffila Millgrove: so sometimes we think.. in looking at our own judgement.. oh gosh i move so fast in deciding on that person.. i should give this more thought, more time give her/ him a second chance (if it was negative judgement) and you know the truth really is there--that your first impression likely was correct. 80 percent of the time.. you were correct.
Raffila Millgrove: no one thinks about that.
Lucinda Lavender: nods
Raffila Millgrove: we sometimes put this big value on the "open mind".. accepting others etc.
Raffila Millgrove: what i feel on this is that i will not necearily.. "not accept" but i will understand that accpeting the person is going to carry some risk.. some difficulty and think.. about that.
Lucinda Lavender: hmmm
Raffila Millgrove: i present this// because it is a different way to look at it. based on what i said about the research.
Lucinda Lavender: right
Lucinda Lavender: feels like procrastination...
Raffila Millgrove: however.. i have been really active in my life.. related to disability--inclusion.
Lucinda Lavender: I "should not judge"
Raffila Millgrove: no i think it is wanting to respect a core value of treating others.. with care.. with kindness. not jumping to conclusions... but i prefer to do that judging with the knowledge that if the initial first impression was negative. there is likely challenges coming.
Lucinda Lavender: I have the same value around treating others with care
Raffila Millgrove: the open mind. doesn't have to be the naive... this "i should not judge". that bothers me as it leads to some very foolish things. including not helping others accept boundaries or respect the rest of the group etc.
Raffila Millgrove: you know what i mean?
Lucinda Lavender: yes...
Raffila Millgrove: you almost set that other guy up for a failure.. if you are not.. thinking carefully... mm.. there are going to be some risks in establishing a relationship with this person.
Lucinda Lavender: accepting disrespectful behaviour would not be helpful
stevenaia Michinaga: I live with many foolish things because of that very thing
Raffila Millgrove: yep
Lucinda Lavender: hey steve...
Raffila Millgrove: and people praise that.. and i think praising it.. is off the mark a bit.
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Luci, ELiza, Raffi
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Eliza:)
Raffila Millgrove: hi Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi :))
Lucinda Lavender: We are discussing judgement...
Lucinda Lavender: And I think Raffi types faster than I do:)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lucinda Lavender: (judgement)
Eliza Madrigal: looking cute Luci... been shopping :))
stevenaia Michinaga: so does no-judgement equal nievity
Lucinda Lavender: yes thanks
Eliza Madrigal: I'll listen, have been in a few of these topic discussions... interesting angles
Raffila Millgrove: Steve.. there was a really long statement that i made.. before going into...
Raffila Millgrove: discussing.
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Lucinda Lavender: I could copy it to you...
Eliza Madrigal: sure, great
stevenaia Michinaga: sure
Raffila Millgrove: so it's kind of hard to pick that.. out of context.. cause.. it.. was about.. keeping open mind.. judging but not rejecting.
stevenaia Michinaga: I do feel it is part of natural state
Raffila Millgrove: in other words it was not withholding judgement.. it was judging that this negative first impression you have of someone.. is likely correct. and if you chose to establish relationship.. you need to keep that in mind...
Raffila Millgrove: in other words. the negative judement does not necearily result in immeidate rejection. the mind can.. stil be open for second chance or learning more of the person...
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes a 'negative' feeling about someone is simply they are quite new in approach... unfamiliar
Raffila Millgrove: research is showing Eliza that about 80 percent of time.. your first impression is correct.
Raffila Millgrove: that is how i open this.. statements. with that caveat.
Eliza Madrigal: oh yes didn't mean to imply that the first flash isn't genius
Raffila Millgrove: and the flash isn't intuitiion.. it is your brain working in a flash.. comparing data.
Eliza Madrigal: for myself, I've just had to eat my first thoughts a bit :)

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: here is where you got the 20 percent where you could be wrong. a person physically resembles someone of your past you really had bad experiences with.... and the brain jumps to that idea--and it's wrong. does that make sense? we aren't totally accurate but we are nearly overwhelmingly correct in the initial short assessing time.
Eliza Madrigal nods
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Lucinda Lavender: brb
Raffila Millgrove: luci and i were thinking too.. that we put value on Not judging people. and i was saying. that.. i think that can be foolish sometimes. we do judge them.. but we can also keep open mind about second chances, revisions. whether or not we might want to.. take more time in it.. knowing that there is likely a risk.
Eliza Madrigal: can relate to that
Lucinda Lavender: I personally am looking at where the conversation may be going...headed...and if the person I am discussing with seems headed in a certain postion I let myself notice that
stevenaia Michinaga: I often accept first and let judgement take hold slowly... over time and after an indiviual shows themselves (or when someone tells me it;s obvious that this person is not worther because they are quicker to judage than I and wish to protect me)
Eliza Madrigal: I think it is interesting to be both critical and open at the same time.. it is a myth that this isn't possible
Raffila Millgrove: i agree very much with you Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: "I made my mind large, as the universe is large, to contain paradoxes" Maxine Hong Kingston
Lucinda Lavender: "with this position...what might one be hiding from?" I ask myself this when faced with strong opinion
Eliza Madrigal: interesting!
Lucinda Lavender: Or...what is one clinging to?
Raffila Millgrove: yes. luci.. someone gives you as strong opinion--is this something that you initially are disagreeing with. that doesn't match your thinking?
Lucinda Lavender: maybe or maybe not...
Raffila Millgrove: ok
Lucinda Lavender: we cling to pictures it seems
Eliza Madrigal: there is a sniper feeling... when sometimes someone feels to hide but see 'others' so critically... ye old mote in your own eye story :)
Lucinda Lavender: to me
stevenaia Michinaga: or they become defensive at any disagreement leads me to belive they are defending themselves, no their ides
stevenaia Michinaga: *not
Raffila Millgrove: ah even more interesting.
Eliza Madrigal: (brb)
Lucinda Lavender: sometimes I ask myself "what movitvates the position?"
stevenaia Michinaga: leads to understanding
Lucinda Lavender: for some people it may be value, or, logic, history...
Eliza Madrigal: (here)
Raffila Millgrove: wb
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: ty
Lucinda Lavender: or how tired or in pain they are
Eliza Madrigal: it is also what 'appears' to be valued... it is sort of a quick fix or reaction
Eliza Madrigal: fast feedback on opinions

--BELL--

Raffila Millgrove: sometimes. when interviewing someone. i will read back to them what they just said... as a way of alerting them.. perhaps they want to change what they said.. maybe they don't want to be quoted.. exactly as they've spoken. sometimes people don't really say what they intend to say. or say something they don't exactly believe. (not refering to revealing personal info. that's different)
Eliza Madrigal: seems a good practice raffi
Lucinda Lavender: nodding...
Raffila Millgrove: because that also protects me.. it's the thing that will come back to me.. they will call the editor--I never said that! it's a way to clarify to protect both of us.
Eliza Madrigal: follow up is important
Raffila Millgrove: and it's useful in everyday conversation to get people to repeat themselves by giving them your impression of what they said. maybe you didn't hear it.. as they meant it.. maybe they mean it differently and said it wrong. helpful to both.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: in what capacity are you speaking of Raffi?
Eliza Madrigal: re interviews?
Raffila Millgrove: no
Raffila Millgrove: everyday conversation.
Raffila Millgrove: this i learn many years ago in communication studies.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, it is the nature :)
Lucinda Lavender: yes..I think I do it too
Lucinda Lavender: or try
Lucinda Lavender: active listening
Raffila Millgrove: to.. tell someone what you think you heard them say.. and have them either agree yes.. or repeat.. yes.
stevenaia Michinaga: clearify what has been said
Lucinda Lavender: nods
Raffila Millgrove: old idea. but very valuable one. used to be called something else. now i think they call it active listening.
Eliza Madrigal nods... yet there is only so far one can go with words
stevenaia Michinaga: the response adds the the expression
stevenaia Michinaga: *to
Eliza Madrigal: people can say very mean things with lovely words
Lucinda Lavender: yes active listening
Raffila Millgrove: but at least this does.. help people who are struggling to understsand each other.
Raffila Millgrove: diffuses a big fight with a spouse for example.
Eliza Madrigal: can, nods
stevenaia Michinaga: seems to be a large basis of what we do here to understand each other
Raffila Millgrove: this actually relates to judgement btw.. which is the part where you are clarifying.. do you really Understand what you are going to judge....
Raffila Millgrove: your judgement is going to be faulty if you are basing it on faulty data.
Eliza Madrigal: well we add our dreams into the mix of every interaction I think :)
Lucinda Lavender: Yes, "Hve I made an error in what I was seeing"?
Lucinda Lavender: interesting..was just thinking of dreams
Raffila Millgrove: yes. seeing and hearing. did i read/hear/see.. it the way the other person meant? what's happening?
Lucinda Lavender: and my own sense that prophetic dreams include questions around what is going on in observations
Raffila Millgrove: i often reread logs .. several times. cause i can get the wrong impression when several talk at once.. as we do here.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: I do that as well
Lucinda Lavender: yes..I often never decided what was being said either
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lucinda Lavender: leaving the possibilities open
Eliza Madrigal: thus the suggestion to 'take things lightly'
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Raffila Millgrove: hehehe. sometimes a brilliant insight is so buried.. it is a little gem.. buried in a lot of .... yatta yatta. i like to spot those.
Lucinda Lavender: nods
Eliza Madrigal: pearl diving
Raffila Millgrove: wow. such an apt description Eliza. Raffi claps.
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: lots of Rumi reading... and actually this is my log reading sensibility as well
Raffila Millgrove: Rumi? what is Rumi?
Lucinda Lavender: big smile
Lucinda Lavender: poet
Eliza Madrigal: 'treasures out of darkness' is a biblical reference, but Rumi is marvelous suffi poet
stevenaia Michinaga: those are the best things here, one person's mud(usually the person trying to express themselved) is another's clearity
Eliza Madrigal: Coleman Barks translations of his works is.... well... five pages and one is swooning drunk, lol
Raffila Millgrove: ty. i bookmakr for later. fascinating. didn't know of Rumi.
Raffila Millgrove: (did know.. long ago but forgot. will refresh.) ty
Lucinda Lavender: not sure what to say but have several favorites
Raffila Millgrove: excuse me.. dinner is ready. lovely to visit with you all.
Eliza Madrigal: have found one poem if interested... from a session in which I quoted...
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: Nite raffi :)
stevenaia Michinaga: night Raffi
Lucinda Lavender: bye for now Raffi...and thanks for following up on yesterday's discussion
Raffila Millgrove: ty Luci for making it happen! and steve too of course.
Eliza Madrigal has so much to catch up reading
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lucinda Lavender: which poem EEEE
Eliza Madrigal: lol, eee
Eliza Madrigal: okay... this is perhaps my favorite rumi....
Eliza Madrigal: Eliza Madrigal: "Someone who does not run Eliza Madrigal: toward the allure of love Eliza Madrigal: walks a road where nothing Eliza Madrigal: lives. But this dove here Eliza Madrigal: senses the love hawk floating Eliza Madrigal: above, and waits, and will not Eliza Madrigal: be driven or scared to safety. Eliza Madrigal: "
Eliza Madrigal: In the Coleman Barks translation it is titled 'the road where nothing lives'
Eliza Madrigal: but I think of it as the love hawk
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lucinda Lavender: nodding...was going to say to Raffi...it is about love...
Eliza Madrigal: Love, yes... wonder if that is on the topic list :)
Lucinda Lavender: surely it will bubble up:)
Eliza Madrigal similes
Eliza Madrigal: hah... smiles not similies
stevenaia Michinaga: bedtime calls, thank you
Eliza Madrigal: Night stevie
Lucinda Lavender: Night Stevenaia...
Lucinda Lavender: shall we go too?
Lucinda Lavender: getting a little tired
Eliza Madrigal: another Rumi... "A pearl diver does not know how to sim; no matter, pearls are handed to him on the beach"
Lucinda Lavender: sim?
Eliza Madrigal: :) and yes... me too actually.... just felt to peek in
Lucinda Lavender: swim?
Eliza Madrigal: swim, yes, hah
Lucinda Lavender: uh huh...
Eliza Madrigal: implies that if the heart is right...
Eliza Madrigal: no matter the seeming position in life
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lucinda Lavender: the pearls appear
Eliza Madrigal: amen
Lucinda Lavender: :)amen
Eliza Madrigal: btw, we might try a dream session soon I hope
Lucinda Lavender: ok! maybe frinday am at 7?
Eliza Madrigal: this Friday? sure...
Lucinda Lavender: or any other time is fine too
Eliza Madrigal: a kind of off the cuff thing...?
Lucinda Lavender: we can try
Eliza Madrigal: OK :)
Eliza Madrigal: date
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Lucinda Lavender: date
Eliza Madrigal: hehe.... night Luci
Lucinda Lavender: bye for now
Eliza Madrigal: bfn