2009.05.14 07:00 - Transcending Conditions

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

It looked to be a silent session for me, until Yakuzza landed with questions and thoughts on learning and exploration...

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yakuzz :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi
Eliza Madrigal: travelling in style I see :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: with the jetpack ?
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: Fun
Yakuzza Lethecus: it just ignores the maximum hight
Eliza Madrigal: Ah... good tip
Eliza Madrigal: How are you doing today?
Yakuzza Lethecus: fine, i have a vacation day tomorrow :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: so it´s a looong weekend :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: I hoped that there are more ppl around in the daytime
Eliza Madrigal: Nice! That can seep into the day before... just knowing your are going on vacation begins to let you rest....
Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes there are...
Yakuzza Lethecus: yesterday in the evening they even talked about how many muscles relaxing when the eyes are closed :)
Eliza Madrigal: Many?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i didn´t participate here very often so i still try to watch how others behave
Yakuzza Lethecus: 2 times so far
Yakuzza Lethecus: but only yesterday with awareness
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, do you have observations about that... about the dynamic?
Yakuzza Lethecus: dynamic ?
Eliza Madrigal: Well, you said you watched 'with awareness' ... that implies noticing... wondered what you noticed :)
Eliza Madrigal: (Glad you are joining in )
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am german by the way, i just said with awareness because the first time was nearly when i fall asleep
Yakuzza Lethecus: and i did later :)
Eliza Madrigal: hehe..
Eliza Madrigal: I must admit to never falling asleep here... if anything I feel very awake after a session usually

We begin to talk about the learning environment of SL, and developing comfort (and bravery) with adding one's questions, impressions, and ideas in amidst those who have more 'metals on their chest' so to speak. :) 

Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s in ur daytime i guess
Yakuzza Lethecus: so ur at work or in a break ?
Eliza Madrigal: Yes... Eastern time in Miami :)
Eliza Madrigal: And I am at home... actually amidst paperwork ... lots of paperwork and transitions in my life
Yakuzza Lethecus: I am just curious and try to understand what is going on.
Eliza Madrigal: You attend the Kira sessions sometimes...
Yakuzza Lethecus: And when there are even ways for more introspecion on kira then i join them as well.
Yakuzza Lethecus: It´s just that i am scared of popular esotherical stuff
Eliza Madrigal: You don't care for 'flighty, flaky, fluffy' you mean... things that disconnect one from 'reality'... ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: It´s complicated
Eliza Madrigal: yes, and simple too
Yakuzza Lethecus: The mind got influence on our body, but to what extend and through which tools can we know ourselves better.
Yakuzza Lethecus: But for me esotheric for example got only the flighty,flaky,fluffy meaning in the past
Yakuzza Lethecus: out of any reality
Yakuzza Lethecus: so if people around here are trying to find ways of relaxation
Yakuzza Lethecus: it might be something i should try and examine
Eliza Madrigal: Relaxation is a funny word for the explorations here.. because 'taking things lightly' is a good way to begin to find a more expansive connection, rather than a disconnection.
Eliza Madrigal: So yes, it is relaxation... and yet very attentive
Eliza Madrigal: (or that is my experience)
Eliza Madrigal: I see that you are quite philosophically inclinied.. does that include contemplative studies also?
Eliza Madrigal: Meditation and such?
Yakuzza Lethecus: not at the moment, i try to get a picture of philosophy still
Yakuzza Lethecus: i hear lectures from the pre socratics up to kuhn, quine, popper
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i am interested in concret issues on social justice
Yakuzza Lethecus: but as soon as i read about psychologie it seems that i really have to know discussions of decartes and mind body problem issues
Yakuzza Lethecus: or social justice and contract theorie and hobbes, hume...
Eliza Madrigal nods... I think meditation and mindfulness are the way to make one's work in those areas effective... to see more clearly
Eliza Madrigal: While thinking is 'great'... when unilluminated it can tangle...
Eliza Madrigal: so I look at our practice here... the pauses every fifteen minutes and such... as opening the windows
Eliza Madrigal: And then yes... go about one's day and reading and learning...
Eliza Madrigal: but with a 'lightness' perhaps which does seem to make it easier
Yakuzza Lethecus: I didn´t read much in the past, i pretty much knew so many things i couldn´t reach.
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, you mean that you have insights but are learning vocabulary?
Yakuzza Lethecus: This is text only area isn´t it ?
Eliza Madrigal: yes.. because we record the sessions and post the logs online...
Eliza Madrigal: Were you aware of that? If you'd rather you not be recorded I can edit :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i guess u didn´t hear that, no i am not aware :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s ok, its really just easier to talk sometimes
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, guess it is not text only... I did hear you
Eliza Madrigal: However I've never used voice here... am far more comfortable with text for now :)
Eliza Madrigal: Plus... tricky with the logs... would need to take notes from you :)

Eliza Madrigal: :) Love those pauses
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe
Yakuzza Lethecus: i really like the kira places because they are really focused on a subject.
Yakuzza Lethecus: It´s not just a floating around in 2nd life, and obviously the people around are more competent :P
Eliza Madrigal: I've seen you at Phenomenology and I Ways of Knowing I think...
Yakuzza Lethecus: Penomenology
Yakuzza Lethecus: WoK not so far
Yakuzza Lethecus: its between 23-24 or 11-12 pm
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s the latest i can attend
Eliza Madrigal: Ways of Knowing is today... 2PM
Eliza Madrigal: Ah...
Yakuzza Lethecus: but even that only under suffering because i have to get up and prepare to work at 4:30 am
Eliza Madrigal: (2PM SLT )
Eliza Madrigal: Early day!
Eliza Madrigal: I roll out of bed circa 6:30 :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am talking about gmt -1
Yakuzza Lethecus: its 4:30 right now here
Yakuzza Lethecus: pm
Eliza Madrigal: Well if you can make Stim's WoK workshop... is fantastic
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, i have that in mind :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: there are some other interesting ones for example on open habitat
Eliza Madrigal: yes?
Yakuzza Lethecus: reflection freenode has some discussions on the weekend over developmental psychologie
Yakuzza Lethecus: but that is really in the middle of the knight for me :(
Yakuzza Lethecus: night :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
Eliza Madrigal: I've not attended many of those... weekends are unpredictable
Eliza Madrigal: That is one reason I like that so many things are logged...
Eliza Madrigal: not sure about the Psychology discussions, but WoK, Phen., these sessions...
Eliza Madrigal: which often can be quite dense and surprising :)
Eliza Madrigal: Maxine's Tuesday dream workshop is marvelous, but is not logged because of confidentiality

The roles of conditioning/ Nature v Nurture 

Yakuzza Lethecus: i would like to know more about the tools of science, how to reason
Yakuzza Lethecus: how to find information for example when i try to find which studies are more on the side of nature or more on the side of nurture
Yakuzza Lethecus: For example i found one very influential for me from hart and risely 95
Eliza Madrigal: Studies on conditioning?
Yakuzza Lethecus: lol, how much parents spoke to their children
Yakuzza Lethecus: depending or their social economic status
Eliza Madrigal: What did they find?
Yakuzza Lethecus: that upperclass parents spoke 215k words a week with their children
Yakuzza Lethecus: mid class 140k
Yakuzza Lethecus: welfare 67k words
Yakuzza Lethecus: and there was even much more forbidden for those on welfare
Eliza Madrigal: Due to time and stress constraints I'm sure.... even when there, worry can crowd out conversation
Yakuzza Lethecus: and it even reflected itself in how much and how differentiated children spoke
Eliza Madrigal: and coping mechanisms can disconnect
Yakuzza Lethecus: explain coping mechanisms can disconnect
Yakuzza Lethecus: maybe i have exactly the same in mind right now :)
Eliza Madrigal: Well, living a life wherein one is stressed beyond ability... coping can mechanisms develop which further impede rich conversation.... conversation which only takes place in an atmosphere of relative security
Eliza Madrigal: Tv can be one...
Eliza Madrigal: Closing off
Eliza Madrigal: Or any number of things... drinking to excess, etc.
Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, i am curious about how children can learn learning disabilities
Eliza Madrigal: And yet.... regardless of financial ability and pressure.... Breath is free! We all have to do it. Paying attention to one's breath can actually begin to change the quality of interraction. I work with children...
Eliza Madrigal: work with children who struggle in various ways...
Eliza Madrigal: what I find is that they 'cannot' concentrate until they feel secure...
Eliza Madrigal: Often they sit with me and cannot begin to learn until they are able to
Eliza Madrigal: unload something... put it aside... get 'relaxed'
Eliza Madrigal: So, sitting with them and getting into that place before beginning any 'work' is helpful.
Yakuzza Lethecus: is that only for chilren in that way ?
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think so...believe it universal.
Yakuzza Lethecus: for example i never attended college, i am scared i couldn´t learn in the past and how my peergroup is related to that
Yakuzza Lethecus: who can i trust, mean i can´t even speak about philosophy
Yakuzza Lethecus: in real life, or sociology, or psychologie
Eliza Madrigal: We can all speak on things... we all have observations...
Eliza Madrigal: I tend to think that if you have an interest, then you have a place somewhere...
Eliza Madrigal: often those who have studied something for years and years have a difficult time seeing out of held patterns...
Yakuzza Lethecus: but not when nobody is interested and there are prjudices like teachers aren´t in the real world, philosophers aren´t either, psychologists are crazy people trying to hearl crazy people
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean there aren´t serious discussions for me in real life
Eliza Madrigal: This is real life in its own way :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: and when ur not that great at school and ur parents tell you that that stuff at school is crap anyway then u might believe em when it´s unpleasant
Eliza Madrigal: You have many questions... often people think they know so much and stop asking questions.
Eliza Madrigal: AND... you see through that...
Eliza Madrigal: you already see through some of the conditioning
Eliza Madrigal: Not to say that there aren't also tools for learning issues which are 'practical'...
Eliza Madrigal: Concentration seems to be key though, and allowing yourself to learn in a different way...
Eliza Madrigal: not measuring to those around you very much.
Yakuzza Lethecus: for me it is even to find those kind of retarded axioms :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: sorry for the hard language
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks :) Not a word I'm fond of
Yakuzza Lethecus: Some of my beliefs are actually irrational but i have still to figure out where else i am stepping on my own feed.
Eliza Madrigal: I hear you though... I've had learning issues also... the reason I ended up doing what I've been doing :)

Yakuzza felt more comfortable using voice, and although due to listening my notes are not perfect, some of the very interesting things he brought up are as follows:

-To what extent does social background affect learning?/Being put in certain categories of ability while in school and beginning not to be stuck in that/how happy he is to find people who are interested in Science and Psychology in SL and specifically in Kira/PaB/The fantastic thing about Wiki and dictionary access when communicating through the internet/Elaborated codes and Bernstein/Science at Play... great rhetoric and elaborating with others.   

  Here are some of my responses

Eliza Madrigal: No worries
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Your English is fantastic...
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes you translate twice (he corrected me here... was inaccurate)
Eliza Madrigal: to get to text?
Eliza Madrigal nods... I do this too (type and delete) and English is my first language :)
Eliza Madrigal: This is why I don't use the typing animation
Eliza Madrigal: would drive others mad :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Yes... I hear you. So you have questioned your own capacities...
Eliza Madrigal: The marvelous thing about SL is that you are able to dive into subjects without anyone saying "Show me you belong here first"
Eliza Madrigal: And either you participate or not... but either way is fine. You learn and grow at own pace... which at times can be surprising
Eliza Madrigal: Yes exactly!
Eliza Madrigal: praise to wiki.... haha
Eliza Madrigal: In a conversation the other day I brought up a favorite quote... think it is close to what we are finally seeing with
Eliza Madrigal: regard to auto-didacticism...
Eliza Madrigal: "Not by age but by capacity is wisdom acquired"
Eliza Madrigal: We've always assumed that there is a fixed 'level' of things..
Eliza Madrigal: as when earlier you brought up age and concern for time lost?
Eliza Madrigal: The truth is.... much can be gotten in a flash...
Eliza Madrigal: but we never had a way to play that out...
Eliza Madrigal: (need a recorder... might not do justice to your references in my notes)
Eliza Madrigal: :) (here Yakuzza's references and the spilling over of his ideas were hard to note)
Eliza Madrigal: It is comforting and inspiring to work with ideas 'with others'
Eliza Madrigal: But not to put pressure on oneself to 'catch up'
Eliza Madrigal: yes.... even online it is easy to feel that way. The nice thing about PaB and Kira, is that the general environment allows for 'listening' ...
Eliza Madrigal: though there are occasions when someone will want to interject often but not be part of the background work perhaps....
Eliza Madrigal: and then maybe they'll be asked to be more a regular part of things.
Eliza Madrigal: I think your strong interest speaks to beginning to find your way ... and what you do here will spill into all of life :)
Eliza Madrigal: helpful to begin to write out what you want to say...
Eliza Madrigal: Yes... Relaxing will be good for you...will let you dip deeper and deeper into things at your own pace
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: In RL, I have 'gaps' when I speak... people are compelled to jump in because I am looking for the word and don't want to miss the moment.... more common than you may think
Eliza Madrigal: And fine... maybe a quirk, but not a debilitating one if you can accept it..
Eliza Madrigal: Actually shows thoughtfulness toward precision
Eliza Madrigal: Very nice to talk to you also. :)
Eliza Madrigal: Maybe I will see you at workshops and such... and here more :)