2010.02.12 13:00 - silence and non presence

The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey cal
Yakuzza Lethecus: and bleu
Bleu Oleander: hi Yaku and Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Hello
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Bleu, Yaku, Cal
Bleu Oleander: hi Agatha
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Is this one of those quiet sessions?
Bleu Oleander: no topic yet?

Yakuzza Lethecus: appreciation of silence :)

 

--BELL--

 

Calvino Rabeni: Oh no, one of those quiet sessions! :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, you noticed :)
Calvino Rabeni: No, quite honestly, it takes a long time for me to get set up corectly with my old computer
Calvino Rabeni: it does everything slowly
Agatha Macbeth: Where is everybody?
Agatha Macbeth: Must be the post-Malta backlash
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: when is the next trip?
Calvino Rabeni: I had a topic in mind, and was getting some stuff together
Yakuzza Lethecus: san francisco
Calvino Rabeni: Soon isn't it?
Yakuzza Lethecus: in march,april ?
Bleu Oleander: are you going?
Yakuzza Lethecus: no
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don't cross the atlantik :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: off, course it's just a catjump for you :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: since you're closer to the westcoast anyway
Bleu Oleander: right .... btw, did anyone take photos from the Malta trip?
Calvino Rabeni: I think I will drive, it takes 16 hours south down the coast
Yakuzza Lethecus: didn't i toss you my photos ?
Agatha Macbeth: Are you in California Cal?
Bleu Oleander: oh yes, i did see yours
Yakuzza Lethecus: http://www.flickr.com/photos/yakuzza_lethecus/
Agatha Macbeth: Ouch
Yakuzza Lethecus: too late :)
Bleu Oleander: no photos of the group?
Bertram Jacobus: sry and hy :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: faces are private :)
Calvino Rabeni: I am in Washington State, so it takes a while
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Bert :) Thanks for stepping on me
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bert
Agatha Macbeth: Oh, ok
Bleu Oleander: hi Bert
Calvino Rabeni: I could fly, but it is good to visit friends along the route
Bertram Jacobus: yvw agatha ! :-)
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Agatha Macbeth: It's usually Ara who does that
Bertram Jacobus: always the same can be boring ...
Agatha Macbeth: True
Agatha Macbeth: Did you say you had a topic in mind Cal?
Agatha Macbeth: (Again with the silence)
Agatha Macbeth: Silent Hill was noisier than this ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: hy zon
Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Zon
Zon Quar: hi all
Agatha Macbeth: Or should I say aloha
Bleu Oleander: hi Zon
Bertram Jacobus: why aloha ? because of zons shirt ? :-)
Zon Quar: aloha would be nicer
Agatha Macbeth: Yep
Bertram Jacobus: :-))
Agatha Macbeth: Only needs a grass skirt to set it off :)
Zon Quar: u should wear one next time
Calvino Rabeni: The best topics come from something interesting that is going on in one's life
Agatha Macbeth: No, I meant you :)
Zon Quar: lol
Agatha Macbeth: grins
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe things presented by other people
Zon Quar: men dont wear skirts
Zon Quar: except scotts
Agatha Macbeth: They DON'T???
Zon Quar: no
Zon Quar: women do
Agatha Macbeth: holds up her hands in horror
Agatha Macbeth: They don't know what they're missing....
Zon Quar: although sometimes women also use pants
Agatha Macbeth: This is true
Agatha Macbeth: I mean, look at Bleu...
Bertram Jacobus: some men may guess ... ( what they're missing)
Calvino Rabeni: Second life is even more feminized than RL for some reason - I wonder why?
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: In what way Cal?

Zon Quar: women r more verbal

 

--BELL--

 

Zon Quar: verbally more gifted than men usually, perhaps thats one reason
Agatha Macbeth: Possible, debatable...
Calvino Rabeni: Compared to RL, SL has even more emphasis on looks, fashion, shopping for female things, clothes -
Agatha Macbeth: Oh yes, definitely!
Calvino Rabeni: not to mention that many RL males become female here - but not so much the other way around
Agatha Macbeth: I just spent 400L on clothes before I came here :)
Calvino Rabeni: A world based more on appearances may encourage that
Zon Quar: h
Zon Quar: hm
Agatha Macbeth: Why do you think that is Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: I am just wondering the reasons the gender bias shifts to female here
Calvino Rabeni: Not really sure
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe it's more fun to be a girl in SL?
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe because appearances are what females know better to manage
Calvino Rabeni: Yes could be
Calvino Rabeni: Speculation could come up with many reasons
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Eliza :)
Bertram Jacobus: i don't think that.
Zon Quar: appaerances..hm
Agatha Macbeth: tell us more Bert
Zon Quar: is this a cause or result
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha, Bert, Bleu, Ya, Cal, Zon
Zon Quar: hi eliza ?
Bertram Jacobus: i think being a man is as nice as being a woman here
Zon Quar: sry no ?
Bertram Jacobus: hi eliza :-)
Zon Quar: but ...
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the concern with how the avatar looks is parallel to in RL how women spend a lot of time thinking about how the look to other people
Agatha Macbeth: Ok Bert, good for you ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: Makeup, hair, styles, etc.
Zon Quar: that doesnt expalin why they r here
Calvino Rabeni: As in RL, there are more clothing options for females
Agatha Macbeth: Yes Cal, true
Bertram Jacobus: good for all agatha ( when my thoughts are correct) ...
Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza
Calvino Rabeni: and here, likewise, if not even more so
Zon Quar: that could be result
Zon Quar: not cause
Calvino Rabeni: And it is about relationships perhaps also
Calvino Rabeni: which SL seems to be about
Agatha Macbeth: Relationships?
Zon Quar: that could be it
Bertram Jacobus: relationships *agree* :o)
Agatha Macbeth: In what way?
Zon Quar: women can play more safely here
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, most people probably come here to relate to people, rather than to build things or hang out in solitude
Bertram Jacobus: some find here partners
Calvino Rabeni: Yes that occured to me Zon also
Agatha Macbeth: True Zon
Agatha Macbeth: Also true Cal
Zon Quar: i think sl is very much of connecting with ppl
Calvino Rabeni: And there are not so many rewards for pretending to be a man here
Agatha Macbeth: You can't get physically damaged here
Calvino Rabeni: compared to pretending to be a woman
Agatha Macbeth: Mmm
Calvino Rabeni: Some RL women take little care with their avatars, but it is the minority I believe
Zon Quar: hm can u elaborete caL ?
Bertram Jacobus: i think you can (get physically damaged here) , because - there are overlappings physis / psyche
Calvino Rabeni: Female avatars with slider hair and just one bag-like dress
Zon Quar: OF REWARDS ..?
Zon Quar: sry caps
Calvino Rabeni: They are almost like monks in disregard for appearances
Agatha Macbeth: You can get emotionally damaged Bert, that is true
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Zon Quar: of being a woman or man here
Bertram Jacobus: yes agatha . ty . and emotions have a physical component
Zon Quar: what r the rewards ?
Agatha Macbeth: You can't be damaged physically in SL but you can get damaged emotionally
Bertram Jacobus: may be these components are a bit subtle ... ;-)
Bleu Oleander: emotional damage could lead to physical damage
Agatha Macbeth: How so Bleu?
Zon Quar: but its still safer here for women than in rl
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, true Zon
Bleu Oleander: emotional health affects overall health
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, understood
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Bertram Jacobus: for example , one can get stomach ulcers from getting emotionally hurt
Agatha Macbeth: nods
Zon Quar: and perhaps its also because in sl can be very emotionional
Zon Quar: and women like that more
Bleu Oleander: we have an interesting salon coming up in sl by a documentary film producer on his new film about sl
Zon Quar: just guessing
Bertram Jacobus: but what here is a bit different from the non sl world : you can always log off (!) ;-)
Bleu Oleander: talks about some of these issues
Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't seem to me one can get very "emotional" in SL - no one can see you pout, turn red, stomp foot, use a tone of voice, etc.
Agatha Macbeth: What's that about Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: sl/rl relationships
Eliza Madrigal: Apologies... can't settle... bye for now :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza
Agatha Macbeth: Who is the producer?
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Eliza :(
Zon Quar: Cal..u have things to explore then..lol
Bleu Oleander: the film is "Life 2.0" by Jason Springarm-Koff
Agatha Macbeth: Oh right

Agatha Macbeth: I have heard something of these salons Bleu, where do they take place?

 

--BELL--

 

Zon Quar: is the film for sl or to be presented in rl ?
Bleu Oleander: take place on location
Agatha Macbeth: People get informed in advance then, presumably?
Bertram Jacobus: (one can use voice in sl cal) ...
Bleu Oleander: yes, Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Agatha Macbeth: That would be very interesting
Bleu Oleander: i'll let you all know when we have a lm
Agatha Macbeth: Thank you :)
Bleu Oleander: it's on sat. 2/20 at 10am slt
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Bleu Oleander: the film opened at the Sundance Festival
Agatha Macbeth: Damn, don't think I can make that, RL commitments
Bleu Oleander: :(
Agatha Macbeth: Saturdays are always difficult for me
Agatha Macbeth: Um, it's gone quiet again....
Bertram Jacobus: quietness - also nice
Agatha Macbeth: Enjoy the silence?
Bertram Jacobus: yes. sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: But Agatha, it's your job today to stir things up :)
Agatha Macbeth: Damn, forgot my spoon :)
Bleu Oleander: what are you doing in rl when you are all quiet in sl?
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes IM
Bleu Oleander: are you meditating?
Bleu Oleander: at your computers?
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes just hassling with the controls on the viewer
Yakuzza Lethecus: i have to admit, i intoxicate myself real life, i am watching metropolis on arte
Calvino Rabeni: Some people look at email
Agatha Macbeth: Probably reading emails :)
Calvino Rabeni: or youtube
Agatha Macbeth: Snap!
Bertram Jacobus: different things bleu : sometimes reading profiles, sometimes just enjoying silence , for example
Calvino Rabeni: or other "multitasking"
Zon Quar: im looking at utube
Calvino Rabeni: naughty-naughty :)
Zon Quar: krishnamurti
Agatha Macbeth: Whose profiles?
Zon Quar: interesting
Agatha Macbeth: Krishna who ti?
Calvino Rabeni: Browsing avatar profiles
Bleu Oleander: i thought everyone was meditating!
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Calvino Rabeni: :) Yes, of course we are :)))
Agatha Macbeth: I couldn't meditate to save my life
Bertram Jacobus: of silly people. sry to say that. joined a german group. goup chat appears. -
Zon Quar: yes..ommmmmm
Agatha Macbeth: Ommmmmmmmmy god....
Bertram Jacobus: always hope to find an interesting one (profile) ...
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, but do you?
Calvino Rabeni: Getting curious, for example about tag lines
Yakuzza Lethecus: yes, that's how i found most of the interesting places for me
Bertram Jacobus: very seldom. my fault i guess
Calvino Rabeni: For example "Water Tiger" - what could that be about?
Agatha Macbeth: Tag lines?
Agatha Macbeth: In my case, somebody born in 1962
Calvino Rabeni: And sometimes I decide - OK, no multitasking, just presence :)
Agatha Macbeth: 1962 was a Water Tiger year in Chinese astrology
Zon Quar: so in sl u can do what u wish..isnt this perfect
Bleu Oleander: presence in sl or rl?
Bertram Jacobus: (wood horse here) ...
Calvino Rabeni: And I believe there are certain people in the group who try for presence as a rule, rather than multitasking or distraction
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not naming names though
Agatha Macbeth: grins at Bert
Bertram Jacobus: yes. quite perfect zon
Bleu Oleander: when you try for presence where are you present?
Yakuzza Lethecus: actually, i am thinking more about my ,,non presence" since i am here
Agatha Macbeth: There is no spoon
Bertram Jacobus: presence in sl and rl bleu (when there is presence). because sl is part of rl
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am struggling even with true silence in real life
Yakuzza Lethecus: but it depends
Bleu Oleander: I was just going to say that Yaku .... when present in sl, absent in rl
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Zon Quar: we r not present on sl or in rl..
Zon Quar: when we r present...

Zon Quar: we r now here

 

--BELL--

 

Agatha Macbeth: At PaB
Zon Quar: not a place but a state of being
Agatha Macbeth: Think it's just winding down
Calvino Rabeni: It is *much* easier to hide behind the "mask" of the avatar, in SL, compared to hiding behind the mask of the real face, in RL
Yakuzza Lethecus: i got to go, i have another event i am curious about
Yakuzza Lethecus: cya soon
Bleu Oleander: cya
Zon Quar: who do u hide from ?
Bertram Jacobus: bye yaku
Bleu Oleander: gtg too, bfn
Bertram Jacobus: bye bleu
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bleu
Zon Quar: bye bleu, yaku
Agatha Macbeth: Think I will go too, bye all :)
Bertram Jacobus: bye agatha
Zon Quar: oh..late for me too
Zon Quar: c u
Bertram Jacobus: bye zon
Calvino Rabeni: Easy come. easy go
Bertram Jacobus: yes
Bertram Jacobus: why hiding cal ?
Calvino Rabeni: The awareness is not an all-or-nothing condition
Calvino Rabeni: that was not an answer to hiding
Bertram Jacobus: yes
Calvino Rabeni: do you have awareness of hiding?
Bertram Jacobus: no
Bertram Jacobus: hiding me or others ?
Calvino Rabeni: Hiding self behind masks
Bertram Jacobus: not very important to me - for you ?
Calvino Rabeni: it is important to everyone - you would be exceptional if it weren't so
Calvino Rabeni: usually people aren't aware
Bertram Jacobus: i do it for money sometimes i guess. otherwise i feel quite free
Calvino Rabeni: Walk into a room - say something with no pre-planning - something primal perhaps, or negative....
Calvino Rabeni: no planning, completely spontaneous, no mental rehearsal
Bertram Jacobus: planning is not hiding, in my opinion
Calvino Rabeni: wear ones heart on ones sleeve
Bertram Jacobus: not nessecairily
Calvino Rabeni: complete utter spontaneity, no buffering, no disconnection between inner and outer
Calvino Rabeni: no considering
Calvino Rabeni: this is all the function of masks
Calvino Rabeni: Some people are way more emotionally expressive, some are reserved
Bertram Jacobus: ah - my understanding of thoses masks is lying
Calvino Rabeni: some people's eyes are a window into their soul, they flash with intensity or warmth
Calvino Rabeni: others have unexpressive eyes, they are behind their masks
Calvino Rabeni: if you travel, you see, different cultures are quite different with respect to
Calvino Rabeni: how much they get in each others faces - both through physical closeness,
Bertram Jacobus: yes. may be. i'm a simple man or would like to be it was my spontaneous thought now ...
Calvino Rabeni: and how much their faces are spontaneous and animated - how much they are "IN" their faces
Bertram Jacobus: so much is not hidden ?
Bertram Jacobus: one can see a lot ?
Calvino Rabeni: less hidden or hidden deeper perhaps
Calvino Rabeni: more communicative
Bertram Jacobus: i like openness
Bertram Jacobus: recognize people and being recognized
Calvino Rabeni: they might bury the truly private stuff deeper, in order to have a thicker layer of relating and expressing with people
Calvino Rabeni: It sounds good, but in practice, it is a different thing
Bertram Jacobus: different ? from what please ?
Calvino Rabeni: People have an idea of "openness" but when they attempt to be truly open, it is found not to be at all easy
Calvino Rabeni: for example
Calvino Rabeni: I'm talking about the idea of openness versus the embodiment of it
Bertram Jacobus: may be it's a question of the personal habits ...
Bertram Jacobus: for some it may be hard to hide ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: it's personality, character, body-level learning, and culture

Calvino Rabeni: and all of those are usually, quite unconscious

 

--BELL--

 

Bertram Jacobus: with every bit of action we cover or reveal
Calvino Rabeni: Those are limits that are not noticed until one attempts to cross them
Bertram Jacobus: important that everyone can feel comfortable
Calvino Rabeni: I agree withh your last statement
Calvino Rabeni: Everyone needs to find their own dynamic balance between comfort and risk
Calvino Rabeni: which is fundamental to how "beings" operate
Bertram Jacobus: and some are more concious others less
Bertram Jacobus: not all is unconcious
Calvino Rabeni: Yes! most are very little conscious for example
Bertram Jacobus: i mostly don't think about that much
Calvino Rabeni: If one continues to pursue one little aspect of an experience
Bertram Jacobus: tyr to experience
Calvino Rabeni: which is the kind of thing we do sometime in PaB
Bertram Jacobus: feel
Calvino Rabeni: then it can be found that behind the tinest action, is a complex web of meaning, strategy, assumptions, limits, desires, rules, etc.
Bertram Jacobus: yes
Bertram Jacobus: there are no limitations in tiniest and biggest i guess
Calvino Rabeni: Every point of experience seems to be able to open into an unlimited amount of knowledge
Bertram Jacobus: yes
Bertram Jacobus: my impression too
Calvino Rabeni: since it is an expression of the whole, as in Indra's Net (or jewel)
Bertram Jacobus: yes
Bertram Jacobus: and no limitations
Bertram Jacobus: may be
Calvino Rabeni: But, when people try it, they immediately turn back from the encounter
Bertram Jacobus: looks like
Calvino Rabeni: Why is that .... (rhetorical question)
Bertram Jacobus: "people" - we are the people, aren't we ?
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Calvino Rabeni: I will say yes me, and also, it appears we all have it in common
Calvino Rabeni: But I have more direct insight into the "me"
Bertram Jacobus: but we have also "the good sides"
Bertram Jacobus: potentials
Calvino Rabeni: All sides are good, perhaps :)
Bertram Jacobus: not in my experience
Calvino Rabeni: What are the good versus bad sides then?
Bertram Jacobus: pain versus being happy for example
Calvino Rabeni: I don't relate very strongly to "bad side"
Bertram Jacobus: nice
Bertram Jacobus: i found, that expecting the bad , brings better results :o) - and expecting the good , brings bad results :o)
Calvino Rabeni: Pain is a sensation, but it doesn't have to carry so much baggage of "badness"
Calvino Rabeni: "Bad" has a very lot of cultural stuff attached
Calvino Rabeni: moral stuff, etc.
Bertram Jacobus: for me it's a feeling
Bertram Jacobus: what i mean with it
Bertram Jacobus: pain or pleasure, based on what ever
Calvino Rabeni: A feeling is not a fixed thing, it can open up also
Bertram Jacobus: sure. but that doesn't mean that it disappears at once, then
Calvino Rabeni: In my experience, the pain has a pleasure in it too
Bertram Jacobus: hm. i can't share that in all my past experiences
Calvino Rabeni: And if it can't be made to disappear, at least, I'm able to feel the pleasure part in the pain,and that transforms my relationship to it
Calvino Rabeni: Past experiences are likewise not fixed and solidified
Bertram Jacobus: nice. i can't do that - sometimes ? often ? don't know
Calvino Rabeni: since they are actually appearing in the present time
Calvino Rabeni: Like a memory of shame or disappointment
Calvino Rabeni: considered a bad memory
Bertram Jacobus: i feel a hughe difference between theory and practise
Bertram Jacobus: i know "all the theories"
Bertram Jacobus: but can't agree with most of them :o)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, same here :)
Calvino Rabeni: And they seem partly-right-partly-wrong
Bertram Jacobus: yes
Calvino Rabeni: And the practice is more important
Calvino Rabeni: (personally)
Bertram Jacobus: essential
Calvino Rabeni: Theories are problematical as we know
Bertram Jacobus: sometimes
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, in practice :)
Bertram Jacobus: lol
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: If held lightly in practice, they don't cause too many problems :)
Bertram Jacobus: you produced hearts !? could i do that, too !? :-)
Calvino Rabeni: It is a script, I can give it to you
Bertram Jacobus: that was what i meant / hoped ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: would be very kind :-)
Calvino Rabeni: This was made by Fael
Bertram Jacobus: really kind - ty ! :-)
Bertram Jacobus: yes. the object says that ...
Calvino Rabeni: It is nicely tuned - somewhat subtle, a good rhythm and pace
Bertram Jacobus: yes. really nice ... like it ... ty again ! :-)
Calvino Rabeni: I have a more dramatic one -
Bertram Jacobus: hehe - yes ? ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: which got from someone who is more "expressive" :)
Bertram Jacobus: (whether they will like such entertainement at the wiki?) ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: lol yes :-)
Calvino Rabeni: hearts
Calvino Rabeni: see it?
Bertram Jacobus: whaow - yes ! :o)
Bertram Jacobus: i like faels more ... ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Bertram Jacobus: as you said already ...
Bertram Jacobus: *agree*
Bertram Jacobus: okay - "enough for today" ?
Calvino Rabeni: The floating hearts script reminds me of the "masks"
Bertram Jacobus: oh
Bertram Jacobus: in which way ?
Calvino Rabeni: as much as one stays behind the mask, emotions leak out slowly :)
Calvino Rabeni: One slowly emits emotional energy
Bertram Jacobus: ah :-)
Bertram Jacobus: yes :-)
Calvino Rabeni: like hearts floating out where they can be seen
Bertram Jacobus: yesyes
Calvino Rabeni: OK sure, enough for today?
Bertram Jacobus: yes please
Bertram Jacobus: was very nice
Bertram Jacobus: ty cal :-)
Calvino Rabeni: good talking to you - see you later :)
Bertram Jacobus: same here :-)