2012.05.14 01:00 - Practical arrangements

 

At this session were: Wester Kiranov, Pema Pera, Raffila Milgrove, Alfred Kelberry (boxy) and Bertrum. I talked a bit with Pema in Dutch. Then we moved to talking about the direction PaB should take. When boxy arrived the conversation really took off and we decided that he and Pema would have a focused discussion at the next session, 7 am (in 4 1/2 hours).

 

Pema Pera: Hoi Wester!

Pema Pera: Hoe gaat het?

Wester Kiranov: hoi piet

Wester Kiranov: iedere dag een beetje beter, dank je

Pema Pera: mooi! Dat moet wel schrikken geweest zijn, he

Wester Kiranov: vooral voor iedereen om me heen, eigenlijk

Pema Pera: het gebeurde opeens, zonder veel voortekenen?

Wester Kiranov: Klopt.

Wester Kiranov: het begon als een oorontsteking

Wester Kiranov: maandag heb ik de kinderen nog naar school gebracht, dinsdag lag ik in bed te kreunen, woensdaglag ik op de IC

Pema Pera: oef!

Wester Kiranov: en dat was maar net op tijd ook

Wester Kiranov: je haar zit anders. leuk.

Pema Pera: ja, naar de kapper geweest :-)

Pema Pera: een stuk korter nu

 

Pema Pera: heb je de emails gelezen van de pab groep van de laatste uren?

Wester Kiranov: over leiderschap en ervaringen, of over pompoen in kikkererwtenmeel?

Pema Pera: oh, ik lees die "cafe" berichten niet -- al veel te veel email voor mij :)

Wester Kiranov: :)

Pema Pera: inderdaad, over ervaring

Pema Pera: ik schreef een uur of drie geleden terug dat het me leuk lijkt om daar verder over te spreken

Pema Pera: over wat Alfred precies bedoelde in de guardian meeting

Wester Kiranov: shall we talk in english then? then the other can read this too

Pema Pera: prima!

Pema Pera: A few hours ago I responded in email to what I had read in the guardian meeting log

Pema Pera: where Alfred told us he was interested to focus more on experience

Pema Pera: did you see that email?

Wester Kiranov: yes, i read it quickly

Pema Pera: I guess Alfred didn't or had no time to come here; in any case, I'm all for focusing more on experience, but I'd have to know more about what kind of experience he is interested in.

Pema Pera: What is your preference?

Pema Pera: Do you feel that PaB could move into other directions, perhaps more interesting?

Wester Kiranov: experience is a very broad term

Pema Pera: yes :)

 

 

 

Wester Kiranov: there is theory, there is experience, and there are tools for connecting them

Pema Pera: hi Raffi!

Wester Kiranov: the life as a lab idea, to me, is having an inkling of a theory, some experience, and then systematically going back and forth between them

Wester Kiranov: hi raffi

Pema Pera: yes, integration is key

Wester Kiranov: we were talking about experience and practicality, and the direction PaB should take

Pema Pera: and one very interesting question is what counts as "direct experience"

Pema Pera: (I sent an IM to Raffi with our last few lines)

Pema Pera: most people would consider matter as concrete, and talk about consciousness as more abstract in some sense

Pema Pera: whereas anything material is experienced through consciousness

Wester Kiranov: i think integration sound a bit too much like experience and theory are both finished already, and you just have to connct them

Pema Pera: so in that sense consciousness is the most direct, most concrete, and an inference as to the structure of material reality in some sense could be considered abstract

Pema Pera: as for integration, that's a very interesting point . . . more and more I think that integration has to start in a "premature" stage

Pema Pera: letting things grow together

Pema Pera: rather than trying to somehow glue finished products together

Wester Kiranov: yes

Pema Pera: hey, Alfred!!!

Pema Pera: my turn to be excited :-)

boxy (alfred.kelberry): hi :)

Raffila Millgrove: hi boxy. so glad you made it.

Wester Kiranov: hi boxy

boxy (alfred.kelberry): got the memo, pema :)

Pema Pera: :)

boxy (alfred.kelberry): oh, it's a dutch session :)

Wester Kiranov: we were talking about it :)

Pema Pera: hehehe, only the beginning

Pema Pera: /me admires Boxy's peeking powers :)

Pema Pera: hi Bert!

Bertrum: hi everyone

Wester Kiranov: hi bert

Raffila Millgrove: hi Bert

boxy (alfred.kelberry): i'd like to note that i have also learned a lot from pab and various workshops and people. it's the more recent experience that seem to be less... lucid :)

Pema Pera: what aspects would you like to see added?

Wester Kiranov: added or subtracted?

boxy (alfred.kelberry): a practice angle. something applicable and clear. in comparison to theoretical talk.

Pema Pera: what kind of practice?

boxy (alfred.kelberry): oh, and also, i would not like anything to be changed on account of me :) although, i did hear a similar concern from a number of members.

boxy (alfred.kelberry): er, practical

Pema Pera: I'm always happy to try new experiments!

 

 

Wester Kiranov: talking about the distinction between theory and practice can get quite theoretical :-) Maybe we should discuss tools more often

Wester Kiranov: tools like meditation, metatools like 99 days...

Pema Pera: "theory and practice are not really different, in theory -- but in practice they are"

Wester Kiranov: ;-)

boxy (alfred.kelberry): :)

Pema Pera: but really, Alfred, I'd like to hear more about what kind of practice you are interested

Raffila Millgrove: er 99 days seemed to about people learning foreign languages.

Pema Pera: I'm happy to try new things, for a while at least

Wester Kiranov: (listens)

Pema Pera: (Wester was refering to http://wiki.playasbeing.org/Classes_and_Sessions/The_99_Days_project)

boxy (alfred.kelberry): well, they are not new things, really. it was how pab started out. there was a structure in the meetings, topics and goals visible.

Pema Pera: if you make a few "practical" suggestions, hehe, we can get started quickly!

boxy (alfred.kelberry): i should also note my background to maybe clear up my view. i was first suspicious about pab and did not want to participate. it looked like a sort of zen/spiritual/new age group, that i have never associated myself with.

Pema Pera: I'm very glad you found that not to be the case!

boxy (alfred.kelberry): i initially came to kira for the hard science - astronomy. but through the phenomenology workshop appeared in pab.

Pema Pera: yes, that was fun -- I'd be happy to talk/do more phenomenology if there is interest

boxy (alfred.kelberry): and, indeed, learned a lot about the present, dharma practices, and various new terms.

boxy (alfred.kelberry): but as of recently it seems that our talks revolve around the same pattern. same topics and words.

boxy (alfred.kelberry): which for me as i mentioned do not yield much interest

Pema Pera: footnote here: Buddhism for me has never been central as such; I don't even consider myself to be a Buddhist. Rather, I like to use the scientific approach of open and shared exploration to study the nature of reality -- and Buddhism is one tradition that has quite an interesting track record in that area

Pema Pera: so do you have a suggestion of something new to throw into the mix, Alfred?

boxy (alfred.kelberry): but for instance, an iching meeting last time was interesting. eliza prepared a talk on the 7 minds. although, very much theoretical, there was substance, a coherent model to draw from.

Pema Pera: Did you ever get a chance to look at the one-year project we did, starting two years ago, around the book manuscript I wrote: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/

boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes, as i mentioned a few times, i think the topics should not be just words as "equanimity", but posit a practical question instead

Pema Pera: each week, at least half a doze of us did very specific practical experiments and reported -- very much like the phenomenology workshops

boxy (alfred.kelberry): an example of this was adams talk on christianity and pab

Pema Pera: the logs are there, still

boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes, i have, pema. not my thing, sorry :)

Pema Pera: not practical? or not experimental?

boxy (alfred.kelberry): um... too a far from scientific framework :)

Pema Pera: how about the phenomenology workshops?

 

 

boxy (alfred.kelberry): mmm, a very useful pause :)

Raffila Millgrove: is one of the issues.. meetings here .. structured vs non structured?

Pema Pera: I'm really interested in your interests, Alfred -- it may well broaden PaB, without having to give up anything we're doing already.

boxy (alfred.kelberry): pheno was good. i enjoyed it. it was basically a scientific experiment in a sense. pema vs gilles :) i liked having two different perspectives and seeing how their both hold up under strict scrutiny, rather than groupthink.

Pema Pera: how about doing that again, with Alfred vs Pema?

Pema Pera: not necessarily phenomenology

boxy (alfred.kelberry): ha!

Pema Pera: it could be boxyyana

boxy (alfred.kelberry): not quite in the same weight category :)

Pema Pera: let's keep it light hearted then!

boxy (alfred.kelberry): oh, please, no! :) no yanas from me

boxy (alfred.kelberry): i cherrypick and apply

Pema Pera: the only yana (Sanskrit for vehicle) we have here is Stormyana -- the nondual railroad :)

Pema Pera: when shall we start?

boxy (alfred.kelberry): well, pab is very much a pemayana, don't you agree?

boxy (alfred.kelberry): including the book of magic and time

Pema Pera: no, I don't see it as a vehicle :-)

Pema Pera: I see it as a lab, more

Pema Pera: or a field trip

Pema Pera: a joint venture at research

boxy (alfred.kelberry): well, as a route, perhaps to a broader dharma :)

Pema Pera: you're reading meanings and motivations into my actions -- you're free to do so, but that's not my conscious goal

boxy (alfred.kelberry): ah, i think "research" is also applicable to all the yanas present

boxy (alfred.kelberry): but may be misleading to an outsider

Pema Pera: the topics I cover may be "yana like" but my approach I try to keep western and scientific, as much as I can -- not that that is necessarily better, but it is what I know and love and am trained in

Pema Pera: hence my love for phenomenology, for example

Pema Pera: well, math can be misleading -- all those funny symbols :)

Pema Pera: if something doesn't lend itself to being seen as misleading it's probably very superficial :-)

boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes, and this is what majority of us are accustomed to, so a good place to start :)

Pema Pera: when shall we start?

boxy (alfred.kelberry): er, not sure what, but i'm ready for it, anytime :)

Wester Kiranov: maybe you two could talk about the different metaphors for what we're doing - vehicle, lab, reseach?

Wester Kiranov: pros and cons of each?

boxy (alfred.kelberry): hmm, a good idea

Pema Pera: shall we pick one session a week, for you and I to get started, and of course having others add their suggestions?

Pema Pera: /me nods at Wester

Pema Pera: 1 am and 7 pm are hard for US and Europeans, respectively

boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes, and please, other suggestions. i feel odd here going 1 on 1 with pema :)

Pema Pera: please don't!

Pema Pera: We have to start somewhere

Pema Pera: we can call it PnY

Pema Pera: sorry

Pema Pera: BnY

Pema Pera: Boxy-non-yana

boxy (alfred.kelberry): ha!

boxy (alfred.kelberry): i'm fine with yanas :)

Pema Pera: so it's going to be either 7 am or 1 pm

Pema Pera: neither of which is very good for me (11 pm and 5 am in Japan), but so be it, I can work around that once a week

boxy (alfred.kelberry): 7 am, 1 pm - in order of preference

Pema Pera: you prefer 7 am?

boxy (alfred.kelberry): yep

 

 

boxy (alfred.kelberry): but 1 pm will do

Play as Being 15 minute bell: Thank you.

Pema Pera: okay, let's make it 7 am. How about Mondays? We can start in 5 hours!

Pema Pera: I guess Eliza won't mind

boxy (alfred.kelberry): haha

boxy (alfred.kelberry): sure :)

boxy (alfred.kelberry): all we have to do is bring her chocolate :)

Pema Pera: Wester, will you be able to post the session right away, and then send an email to the PaB group?

Wester Kiranov: i will

Pema Pera: thanks! That way they can read the background in the log

Pema Pera: makes the email shorter :)

Pema Pera: and I'll count on Alfred to bring the chocolate

boxy (alfred.kelberry): sneaky! :)

Pema Pera: chocoyana may be a popular new movement, too .. . .

boxy (alfred.kelberry): i'll donate 1 linden to the cause :)

Pema Pera: :-)

boxy (alfred.kelberry): btw, https is working on the wiki

Pema Pera: and I'm going to get some dinner here -- better be well fed to stay up for another six hours!

Pema Pera: oh, thanks, great!

boxy (alfred.kelberry): eat well, pema

Pema Pera: thanks!

Raffila Millgrove: oops that was unintentional. good bye pema. bon appetite.

Raffila Millgrove: goodbye all.

Pema Pera: and thank you all for joining us here!

boxy (alfred.kelberry): yes, belly distraction can be serious :)

Pema Pera: c u soon again :)

Wester Kiranov: bye to those leaving :)

Wester Kiranov: i think i will leave too. ty for the conversation