2009.03.11 13:00 - Anyone I Can't See Yet

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera, who did not have time this week to write comments :(

Fael Illyar: Hi Wester :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Mickorod :)
Mickorod Renard: hi,,dont know whether i should be here or at kira
Fael Illyar: how come?
Mickorod Renard: well,,I am all at a loss with the time change and whats on what days
Fael Illyar: well, things go with SL time here I think
Fael Illyar: and right now it says 1pm :)
Fael Illyar: which means the time for PaB :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,and I should chill,,and follow my instincts
Mickorod Renard: hiya Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Mick, Fael, Wester!
Wester Kiranov: hi pema
Pema Pera admiring Fael's pristine appearance!
Mickorod Renard: you are looking very radiant tonite Fael
Mickorod Renard: snap Pema
Pema Pera: in constrast with the black of the three of us
Pema Pera: haha, Mick!
Fael Illyar smiles 'Thank you.'
Fael Illyar: Hi Udge :)
Pema Pera: Wester, you mentioned that you had started looking in the Time Space Knowledge (TSK) book again
Pema Pera: hi Udge
Mickorod Renard: Hi udge
Pema Pera: and that it made more sense now
Udge Watanabe: hello pema, wester, fael, mick, and anyone I can't see yet :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Pema Pera: "the unknown avatar"
Udge Watanabe grins
Wester Kiranov: not really again - the previous time was just a short look really
Wester Kiranov: hi udge
Pema Pera: what sense are you getting from it now, if I may ask, Wester?
Mickorod Renard: is the time space knowledge book a publication?
Fael Illyar has a shop almost ready for customers now.
Wester Kiranov: the way it talks about space connects with me
Mickorod Renard: ooooo
Pema Pera: yes, Mick
Mickorod Renard: I am interested in time
Pema Pera: http://www.amazon.com/Time-Space-Kno.../dp/0913546089
Wester Kiranov: but there are also many things that are still very counterintuitive
Fael Illyar: Hi Fefonz :)
Pema Pera: such as?
Mickorod Renard: hi fefonz
Udge Watanabe: hello fefonz
Pema Pera: (what kind of shop, Fael?)
Wester Kiranov: hi fef
Fael Illyar: so far only selling this tattoo you can see on my right now :)
Fefonz Quan: Hi All
Mickorod Renard: is there a group within kira that discusses time?
Fefonz Quan: (and sorry wester, didn't see you rezzing befoer)
Fael Illyar: what kind of things are there that you find counterintuitive?
Wester Kiranov: (taking another look at TSK to see if I can find examples)
Fefonz Quan: yes mick, today at 11am SLT
Pema Pera: yes, every Wednesday at 11 am
Pema Pera: two hours ago :)
Mickorod Renard: oww
Pema Pera: http://www.kira.org/index.php?option...135&Itemid=165
Fefonz Quan: if you find wester, give a page too :))
Mickorod Renard: its just that I have had some odd ,erm,,experiences with it
Udge Watanabe: with time?
Fefonz Quan: do tell
Pema Pera is all ears
Mickorod Renard: well,,I dont normally talk about it..if fear someone may think I am mad
Fefonz Quan: welcome to the club :)
Mickorod Renard: cool
Mickorod Renard: I have had several experiences with vision,,which I told some close people about,,a year before they happened
Fael Illyar: Yes, most of us likely have things we could say and if just anyone would read, they might think us mad :)
Udge Watanabe: o.O
Mickorod Renard: all totally useless stuff,,but it left me with a chilling feeling of what time is
Fefonz Quan: "mad is teh only sane state to be"
Fael Illyar: Hi Scath :)
Mickorod Renard: thankyou,,I feel much more at home now
Pema Pera: hi Schathach!
Udge Watanabe smiles
Mickorod Renard: hi scath
Fefonz Quan: Hey Scath :)
Udge Watanabe: hello scath
Wester Kiranov: hi scat
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema, all:)
Wester Kiranov: (I should be able to make my avatar read a book)
Pema Pera: :)
Fefonz Quan: you can read a paragraph to us in voice :)
Fael Illyar: but that can't be logged too easily
Fefonz Quan: (unless someone writes during)
Wester Kiranov: if i can find my microphone, and a suitable paragraph
Pema Pera: nono no voice here
Mickorod Renard: hiya Ara
Fefonz Quan: yes, the second one is a bitch :)
Fael Illyar: Hi arabella :)
Fefonz Quan: Hey Ara :)
Pema Pera: we really want to keep the chat log self contained
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ara
arabella Ella: Hiya
Pema Pera: HI Arabella
Udge Watanabe: hello arabella
Pema Pera: once we start talking, we will answer in voice too :-)
Fefonz Quan: right, drop it
Pema Pera: and lose the thread for the log
Wester Kiranov: ok
Wester Kiranov: It's weird, I can't find any clear examples
Fefonz Quan: for what?
Wester Kiranov: just like trying to find Mind
Wester Kiranov: for counterintuitive things in TSK book
Fefonz Quan: well, just open any page wester!
Pema Pera: meanwhile, Mick, did you want to tell more about your experiences?
Pema Pera: or was it mostly the one-year-beforehand that hit you?
Fefonz Quan find TSK far from his limited intuition
Mickorod Renard: well..not much more to say unless I bore u all to death,,but,,,,
Fael Illyar: Please, go ahead :)
Mickorod Renard: grin
arabella Ella: may I ask what TSK means pls?
Pema Pera: time space knowledge
Mickorod Renard: they were extream dreams
Pema Pera: the title of a book
arabella Ella: ok ty
Mickorod Renard: much diferent than usual
Pema Pera: http://www.amazon.com/Time-Space-Kno.../dp/0913546089
Mickorod Renard: and I explained them in detail to several people
Mickorod Renard: thanks
Mickorod Renard: knowing from previous experience that they would no doubt ocur later
Mickorod Renard: and voila
Mickorod Renard: but its what they meant
Fael Illyar: did they happen exactly the way as in the dream?
Mickorod Renard: what they meant to me was that something is capable of showing the future,,and,,the future either has happened or
Pema Pera: (Wester, I have the tsk text in digital form, so if you give me a page number and starting words, I can cut and paste)
Mickorod Renard: well,,they were too spooky to explain in short
Mickorod Renard: all time is now
Fefonz Quan: "It seems, from the vantage point of lower space, that profound and infinite dimensions are located in lower time, but only in special points, such as the beginning of the world and the end of our quest"
Fefonz Quan: a quote from a page in TSK i am reading now
Mickorod Renard: can that be explained more fefonz?
arabella Ella thinks it is an interesting concept
Mickorod Renard: like profound dimension?
Fefonz Quan: not by me, i thought we were looking for counter intuitiveness :)
Fael Illyar: rather than counterintuitive, I find it mostly just unclear what it means :)
Wester Kiranov: I've only reached page 65 so far
Mickorod Renard: thats good for one day
Pema Pera: This is from p. 80, what Fef quoted; part of:
Pema Pera: It seems, from the vantage point of lower space, that profound and infinite dimensions are located in lower time, but only in special points, such as the beginning of the world or the end of our quest. Time spreads out before and after us, separating us from these points of paramount significance. But from a higher perspective, the structure and apparent passage of time have not cut us off from our infinite origin or postponed our possibility of fulfillment.
Fefonz Quan: (that was 81, not far away :))
Fefonz Quan: 80, wow pema you are fast
Udge Watanabe: so he is suggesting that infinite time can touch our very-finite time at certain special points
Wester Kiranov: Mostly, when I read it, I think at first "no that can't be true" and then I look at it again and I get a glimpse of how they could be true - but only a glimpse
Mickorod Renard: and a special point would be? any example?
arabella Ella: does it not require a special sort of sensitivity for that to happen?
Udge Watanabe: well, his examples: the beginning of time. The Big Bang
arabella Ella: like a sixth sense?
Udge Watanabe: "the end of our quest" -- well, what? achieving nirvana?
Fefonz Quan: i thought those special points look special from a low perspective
Fael Illyar: what's the difference between end and beginning?
Fefonz Quan: yes udge
Fefonz Quan: but the claim is that they are not special in larger percpective
Wester Kiranov: I thinkmaybe it will get clearer when I get a bit further in the exercises - still trying to visualize a passable Giant Body
Pema Pera: yes, the claim is that our universe is not a wind-up toy that got started at the time of the big bang
Pema Pera: rather every moment everything arises afresh, anew
Pema Pera: from timeless time, in timeless time
Udge Watanabe: if the end of a person's quest is attaining nirvana, then that is for the person of paramount importance, but for Being hardly worth noticing
Fael Illyar: mickorod, but what I find an interesting question about those dreams that then happened is, if they happened because of the dream and not the other way around :)
arabella Ella: but also was already there in another sense i reckon?
Pema Pera: and we interpret it with our concepts and labels like past, present, future
Fefonz Quan: an example from teh time wiki comes to my mind - is teh morning of the last day of our lifes differs from any other morning? is it special in a way?
Pema Pera: no person has ever attained nirvana, Udge . . . :-)
Mickorod Renard: no,,the events were completely nothing to do with me
Mickorod Renard: Fael,,these were nonsense to me,,but profound,,yet happened
Fefonz Quan: Mick, were does cases very unpredictable options to start with?
Fefonz Quan: those*
Mickorod Renard: lol,,didnt get that fefonz
Pema Pera: what is pointed at by the word nirvana is something already here, and may become more visible -- but not to a person, and not as the result of an effort, not as something that can be attained (to Udge)
Fael Illyar: I'd think it's pointless to discuss them unless we actually hear the dream and then what happen and what, if a differences there were between them :)
arabella Ella: what i think Fefonz means is ... did the dreams present you with unpredictable elements?
Fefonz Quan: thanks Ara :)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,they were so obscure they shouldnt have been in my mind or memory
Mickorod Renard: I will discuss the dreams in more depth later ,,or another time more appropriate..yes?
arabella Ella: yes Mick
Mickorod Renard: but back to the subject
Fael Illyar: However you feel comfortable with :)
Wester Kiranov: if later exists ;)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Mickorod Renard: the point for me is,,I have no doubt in my mind that time is wierd ,,and i have had it show as such to me
Mickorod Renard: I just want to know
Mickorod Renard: more
arabella Ella: isn't time still a big mystery?
Pema Pera: the way to knowing is to see, and the way to seeing is to explore, grope in the dark first
arabella Ella: and time is experience by each one of us in different ways?
Pema Pera: we can help each other to explore, and whatever we see, we can then held up to each other and share and compare, as best as we can
arabella Ella: I can just vouch for what Micko is saying as he has discussed this with me before
Pema Pera: how would you go about exploring, Mick?
Pema Pera: Or Arabella, or others?
arabella Ella: different ppl are capable of seeing different things
Wester Kiranov: I know there is a very deep truth to the sentence "now is always", but usually I can't reach that with feeling or knowing
arabella Ella: and some ppl have more sensitivity to seeing things than others
arabella Ella: we do not all have the same type of sensitivity to seeing things arising or as appearahces or what
Mickorod Renard: I am..if I am outright about it,,frustrated at seeing the glimpse,,and not finding people ..like us,,to talk with
Mickorod Renard: this group,,and kira,,is the best way to explore
Mickorod Renard: I think we are drawn together
Pema Pera: glad to hear that, Mick, I feel the same
Udge Watanabe nods
Wester Kiranov: yes
Pema Pera: Arabella, what we are talking about is not esoteric, anyone has the ability to see; the problem is to find the patience and attention to stop and drop . . . nothing is needed in terms of special abilities
Mickorod Renard: I have been affraid to talk to most people about the things we chat about here all the time,,
Pema Pera: :)
Fefonz Quan: welcome to the club II MIck :)
Mickorod Renard: ty
arabella Ella: i dont think i was thinking of anything esoteric or special abilities
arabella Ella: just experience and seeing
arabella Ella: and arising
Pema Pera: Yes, Wester, so that can be a type of "koan", what you wrote, a sentence or idea to keep in mind and work with -- would that makes sense? (refering to: [13:38] Wester Kiranov: I know there is a very deep truth to the sentence "now is always", but usually I can't reach that with feeling or knowing)
arabella Ella: in timelessless
Pema Pera: yes, Arabella
Wester Kiranov: I never thought of it as a koan, but that's interesting
Mickorod Renard: be careful with that word ara
Pema Pera: and in one way different people have different abilities, but in another way, it is already staring in the face of everybody . . . .
Mickorod Renard: must look up koan now
Wester Kiranov: it's more like a benchmark to me - when I see the truth of that one clearer I am going in the right direction
Fael Illyar: yes, a lot of things that, once you get, you're like 'Why didn't I get that before?'
Pema Pera: I find it extremely helpful to keep a single sentence in mind, and mull it over, keep it in mind, for hours or days, until it speaks to me -- it is possible to invite a kind of wisdom that way
Fefonz Quan: A riddle or question in Zen Mick, that's meant not to be answered directly, but to shake your boat sort of saying
Pema Pera: yes, Fael, very much so
Mickorod Renard: wow,,thanks fefonz
Fefonz Quan: (or to drop the floor below your feet?)
Pema Pera: or you could say, it has to be answered, but outside of our usual logic
Wester Kiranov: I have had that one in mind for twenty years or so, together with "here is everywhere"
Pema Pera: yes!
Fefonz Quan: and then - you need to start swimming...
Mickorod Renard: I get those sometimes,,and i wander about for hours in a dream of realisation,,then after a week it sort of goes away
Mickorod Renard: i dont forget them,,but the special..dreaminess goes away
Fefonz Quan: maybe you can combine them together Wester: here-now is always-everything
Mickorod Renard: I had one once,,i saw a set of stairs,,on the top was an old guy, on each step was my life
Wester Kiranov: and there is a third one : it's m=everyone. I was wondering if there is a connection with Knowledge in TSK
Mickorod Renard: still not sure if the old guy was me before death,,or god
Wester Kiranov: *me
Fael Illyar: Mick, what's the difference? :)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I have wondered that too
Mickorod Renard: but I will become wise of the future when I am at the end of my life
Fefonz Quan: why not now?
Mickorod Renard: would love to,,or not mmm
Pema Pera: a wise innocence perhaps :) ?
Mickorod Renard: yea
Mickorod Renard: so are we talking about trancending the barriers of time?
Pema Pera: so yes Wester, time space knowledge: here is everywhere, now is everywhen, me is everybody -- but that can be very misleading when said so succinctly; alternative and more precise formulation: no duration, no separation, no self
Wester Kiranov: wow
Mickorod Renard: ok,,what passes in time gives us our identity?
arabella Ella: but Pema that is using a negative way with using 'no' to describe what you say?
Pema Pera: no separation: all that you see is given together already; no duration: timeless time; no self: it's not your experience, just all sheer appearance
Wester Kiranov: that does not matter, but i will have to meditate on whether they actually mean the same thing
Wester Kiranov: (what arabella said)
Pema Pera: we can only use negatives when talking in words, since words are the shadows of what we are pointing at, Arabella
arabella Ella: yes very wise
Pema Pera: Mick, yes, we *seem* to have an identity and time *seems* to move . . . it's all part of the play, and we can play along without buying into it as really real
Pema Pera: it is all part of the realm of the fictional -- not the superfactual
Pema Pera: the relative -- not the absolute
Wester Kiranov: i also like that it shows one case of how all opposites collapse into another
Mickorod Renard: yes..i see that a bit
Pema Pera: yes, opposites *seem* to arise out of Being
Pema Pera: but only seem
arabella Ella: lovely to reflect on such 'dissolving' of dichotomies ... fantastic
Pema Pera: :)
Fefonz Quan: i read about a neuro scientist that had a stroke, thus shuting down the right part of her brain
Fael Illyar: I watched her presentation on a video.
Pema Pera: we can help each other taste all this . . . letting it all melt on our tongues, Arabella :)
Mickorod Renard: I know this sounds stupid,,but our past is like a vapour trail behind a jet plane?
Pema Pera: a tasting party
Fefonz Quan: she said she saw everythingwithout seperation, the molecules of her hand and the wall mering
Fefonz Quan: merging*
arabella Ella: how beautiful!
Fefonz Quan: (i may switch right and left)
arabella Ella: ??
Pema Pera: (shutting down the left part of her brain :)
arabella Ella: cool
Pema Pera: (the part acting on the right half)
Mickorod Renard: cool
Pema Pera: (the more logical part)
Fefonz Quan: yes, opinting it out in case you want to try it at home ;-)
arabella Ella: yes
Fefonz Quan: pointing*
Wester Kiranov: fefonz: do you have link to that video? I'm not sure if it's beautiful or awful until I see how she reacts to it
arabella Ella: what an xcellent idea Fefonz
Mickorod Renard: yea,,was wonderin that too
Mickorod Renard: I spoke to Ara about some experiences I had had that were so profound I could not use words to explain them
Wester Kiranov: This does remind me of some Oliver Sacks stories, especially the one about the person they thought was close to enlightenment - and then they found out it was a brain tumor
Fefonz Quan: i'll try to look it up
Mickorod Renard: its refreshing to hear that this is normal,,in this circle
arabella Ella: yea
Pema Pera hates to leave in the middle of these stories, but has an appointment right now at the hour . . . :(
Wester Kiranov: bye pema
Pema Pera: see ya!
Mickorod Renard: bye Pema
Udge Watanabe: bye pema, take care
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema
arabella Ella: thanks Pema bye for now
Fael Illyar: See you later PEma :)
Fefonz Quan: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/j...f_insight.html
Fefonz Quan: got it :)
Mickorod Renard: webster,,are you trying to scare us?
arabella Ella: brilliant i love the ted videos
Wester Kiranov: ah - a TED talk
Fael Illyar: http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/stor...005375,00.html
Fael Illyar: so, everyone, which way is the dancer moving? :)
arabella Ella: or should we distinguish between the dancer and the dance? I dont think so ...
Wester Kiranov: no, i'm not trying to scare anyone. but it is easy to get confused on this path
Mickorod Renard: true
Fefonz Quan: yet in a way wester - it can be both, tumor+enlightenment...
arabella Ella: but that is why this helps us to open our minds and perception Wester and Mick ... the more we open up the more we see
Mickorod Renard: ok,,clockwise 4 me
Udge Watanabe: I can make her go either way, but her natural motion is backwards.
arabella Ella: cool Udge
Udge Watanabe: clockwise looking down on her, yes
Mickorod Renard: yes,,i have reversed it before
Fael Illyar: for me, for the moment it's counterclockwise but I've had her go clockwise too sometimes :)
arabella Ella: like the dancer in the optical illusion which shows you whether you are right or left brained
arabella Ella: cool
Fefonz Quan: counterclockwise for me
Mickorod Renard: I am right handed..if that helps
Wester Kiranov: oh- that one
arabella Ella: yes ... so you use your brain to get her to move in another direction which is so cool
Fefonz Quan: ok, i reversed her :)
Fael Illyar: ok... I started reading th text and she reversed :P
Fefonz Quan: would it be different if she was dressed? ;-)
arabella Ella: depends on your own personal gender i guess fefonz
arabella Ella: so what about her gender then?
Fefonz Quan: the opposite to mind i guess
Udge Watanabe: I think as long as she were in silhouette like this, clothes wouldn't matter
Fefonz Quan: (or can i reverse that too? )
Mickorod Renard: hey,,I havnt seen her undressed yet,,boo hoo
Fefonz Quan: she switches directions all teh time now
arabella Ella: yeaaaa
Fael Illyar: oh, that killed the conversation.
Udge Watanabe: :)
arabella Ella: perhaps it triggered our reflection
Fefonz Quan: well, you brought up undressed women, what would you expect Fael :)
Fefonz Quan: i re-recommend the lecture i gave, it is inspiring and i think relevant to what we are speaking of herer
Fael Illyar: unfortunately, I haven't come across something like this that didn't include a silhouette of an undressed woman. :)
Fael Illyar: anyhow, it's a nice toy :)
Mickorod Renard: yes
arabella Ella: i must go now bye everyone
Mickorod Renard: bye Ara
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Ara
Wester Kiranov: bye ara
Udge Watanabe: bye ara, take care
Fefonz Quan: Bye Ara :)
Mickorod Renard: well,,that was fun,,even though I didnt get a clear grasp of time
Udge Watanabe grins
Udge Watanabe: thatÄs like getting a firm grip on half-set jello
Udge Watanabe: IMHO
Fefonz Quan: maybe the issue is letting the grip go...
Mickorod Renard: yea,,the more you go through life the more mysteries it throws up
Fael Illyar: it's kind of like when the only way to have any control is to let go of trying to control :)
Mickorod Renard: ok folks,,I must go,,thanks tons
Udge Watanabe: yes, and I.
Fael Illyar: See you later Mickorod :)
Udge Watanabe: goodniht all, thank you everyone
Fefonz Quan: bye mick
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Mick, Udge
Wester Kiranov: bye micko, udge
Fael Illyar: See you later Udge :
Fefonz Quan: bye udge
Udge Watanabe: goodnight!
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I realised that 3 years ago,,it was very iluminatining
Mickorod Renard: goodnight all
Fael Illyar: Oh, interesting, I followed a link from another article I found that from and it's detailing an operation where half the brain is removed.
Fael Illyar: and says that it has hardly any effect on personality or memory
Fefonz Quan: wester, in the talk she describes very vividly the feeling of "giant body" expanding in space
Fefonz Quan: very similar to the beginning of TSK i would say
Wester Kiranov: that does sound interesting
Scathach Rhiadra must get the TSK book
Fefonz Quan: yes :) though i find it tough to read and frustrating sometimes
Fefonz Quan: well, you know who wrote it ;-)
Scathach Rhiadra: yes:)
Fael Illyar smiles.
Wester Kiranov: :)
Fefonz Quan: i started reading it in December, and got only to page 80
Fefonz Quan: (and i have a LOT of free time, more than you imagine)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Fael Illyar smiles.
Scathach Rhiadra: well. I must go, see you all again soon, namasté
Fael Illyar: Well, I'd better take my leave as well. See you late Everyone :)
Fefonz Quan should contemplate the concept of wasting time to in the workshop. me definitely an expert in that one :)
Fael Illyar: *later
Fefonz Quan: Bye Sacath:)
Wester Kiranov: I only had mine for a couple of weeks
Wester Kiranov: trying to look up when exactly but my browser won't cooperate
Wester Kiranov: bye
Fefonz Quan: it's nice to have someone else reading TSK :)
Wester Kiranov: i think this is the proper place to find them :)
Fefonz Quan: it is worth discussing on many levels.
Fefonz Quan: yep :)
Fefonz Quan: think i will go RL now,
Fefonz Quan: good night
Wester Kiranov: so will I - still have to do the washing up
Wester Kiranov: bye for now
Fefonz Quan: namaste :)
Wester Kiranov: namaste