2010.02.07 19:00 - Knowledge (of ?) Good and Evil

The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

PREVIOUSLY, ON "PLAY AS BEING":

Eliza Madrigal: I think it is important to be generally informed... but to choose the outlets so that it doesn't create a kind of feeding frenzy... negativity, etc
...

Widget Whiteberry: hmm, Yak - I think about this too (ty for the note)
Widget Whiteberry: I think it's important to stay grounded in re real
Widget Whiteberry: because a danger moves slowly or seems far away does not make it less real
Agatha Macbeth: Agreed Widget
Agatha Macbeth: Sometimes makes it more dangerous
Widget Whiteberry: our nervous systems are developed to react to the clear and present danger... but out minds can do more.... for me it's important that I not be agitated when I think about these things ...
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i don´t even know for example places where i can elaborate on such thoughts often so they got stuck as fears somewhere in the memory...

AND NOW, THE CONTINUATION:

Calvino comes to the meeting with the theme of "knowledge" seemingly in the air, seeking to take some human form. When Calvino arrives, a new visitor is already present, hoping to observe the group in action.  As happens sometimes, it turned out that the two people present were the group in action :)

Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Hollie
Hollie Massenberg: hi
Calvino Rabeni: how is it going today / tonight?
Hollie Massenberg: good, you?
Calvino Rabeni: very well, thanks
--BELL--
Hollie Massenberg: anything going on here tonight?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, there is a regularly scheduled meeting here 4 times per day, for the group Play As Being
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes many show up, sometimes 1 !
Hollie Massenberg: i saw that on the board over there
Hollie Massenberg: what if only 1 shows up?
Calvino Rabeni: If that happens, sometimes they just sit, sometimes other things
Calvino Rabeni: have you read the introduction?
Calvino Rabeni: I can give you a note card
Hollie Massenberg: ya, i read the notecard from the info center back there
Calvino Rabeni: One thing to know, is, during these meetings every thing in chat gets recorded and published on the web site.
Calvino Rabeni: Is that OK with you to be recorded?
Hollie Massenberg: i just came to observe anyway : )
Hollie Massenberg: to see if it's something i'm interested in
Hollie Massenberg: but nobody's here so........
Calvino Rabeni: What people do here is observe themselves and each other :)
Calvino Rabeni: So there are 2 people here to be observed
Calvino Rabeni: If more show up then it can get interesting
Hollie Massenberg: cool
Calvino Rabeni: Do you have a meditation practice or something similar?
Calvino Rabeni: It's not a requirement, but many people who come here are interested in that kind of thing
Hollie Massenberg: i have a meditation practice that comes and goes
Hollie Massenberg: ya, i'm interested
Calvino Rabeni: The discussions here are free ranging. But it is based on an idea of "awareness"
Hollie Massenberg: great
Calvino Rabeni: So every 15 minutes there is a bell signal, and then people stop and just notice what they are aware of in the moment
Calvino Rabeni: whether for inside themselves, or in the world around them
Hollie Massenberg: interesting
Calvino Rabeni: And then after that, the idea is, it can become part of the dialogue
Calvino Rabeni: There are people from different philosophies and religions that come here, but there is no specific thing they think people should follow
Hollie Massenberg: that's cool

Hollie Massenberg: i'll bet everybody's watching the super bowl
Calvino Rabeni: Do they watch superbowl outside the USA also?
Hollie Massenberg: idk
Hollie Massenberg: lol

Calvino Rabeni: One thing I like is the international mix of people here
Hollie Massenberg: awesome
Hollie Massenberg: well, i'll try coming back some time when a group is here
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, you might find it interesting
Hollie Massenberg: sounds pretty interesting
Calvino Rabeni: What would you hope to see, if anything would grab your interests?
Calvino Rabeni: Basically, I found you can trust people to respond pretty well to almost any interest here, when a group is present
Hollie Massenberg: i looked at the museum next door
Calvino Rabeni: it is pretty easy going
Hollie Massenberg: great
Calvino Rabeni: The sacred art museum?
Hollie Massenberg: yep
Hollie Massenberg: it's pretty neat
Calvino Rabeni: I went there a couple of times - but don't actually know the story - I think it is patterned after a real museum at a university
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I like it too
Hollie Massenberg: oh that's interesting
Hollie Massenberg: you have a peace pipe?
Calvino Rabeni: I do know a lot of work went into it
Hollie Massenberg: i bet so
Calvino Rabeni: Ah that is a talking stick
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: You know about talking sticks?
Hollie Massenberg: yep
Calvino Rabeni: Nice.
Hollie Massenberg: you pass it around, the person holding it is the talker?
Calvino Rabeni: It is not part of what this group does, but I have them in RL
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: It comes from a tradition of a wisdom council or circle
Calvino Rabeni: I live in USA, and some of the the native traditions have been taken up into other parts of society
Calvino Rabeni: So various friends, etc, know the talking stick
Hollie Massenberg: ya, i'm in usa too
Calvino Rabeni: I don't know if it is done in europe, etc.
Hollie Massenberg: it's pretty native american
Calvino Rabeni: I never asked the germans here about it.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Hollie Massenberg: so, do you stop at various points of the day to be mindful for 90 seconds?
Calvino Rabeni: The recommendation is only 9 seconds during the day
Calvino Rabeni: It's is basically just a reminder to check in with self and be aware
Calvino Rabeni: something that can be done in a fairly busy life
Hollie Massenberg: that's a good tool
Calvino Rabeni: But some people have their own other practices
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, just a quick checkin
Calvino Rabeni: Some are spiritual in orientation, some are not, but an awareness can help anyone make better use of their intelligence
Calvino Rabeni: for whatever their goals are
Hollie Massenberg: ya
Hollie Massenberg: i'm most drawn to mindfulness meditation
Calvino Rabeni: I suppose I am too :)
Calvino Rabeni: If it leads to insights, that is cool, but even when it doesn't there are other good things about it
Hollie Massenberg: sometimes the insight is just, wow my mind is crazy
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Hollie Massenberg: i just looked at the website
Calvino Rabeni: awareness might go "into" the crazyness and find something interesting behind it
Hollie Massenberg: can't find any past group discussions
Hollie Massenberg: ya
Calvino Rabeni: the group discussions are on the wiki -
Hollie Massenberg: SL wiki?
Calvino Rabeni: They are on the "play as being" wiki. Did you find the link for it?
Hollie Massenberg: i found the website, kira.org
Calvino Rabeni: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Calvino Rabeni: Kira has lots of activities besides PlayAsBeing.
Hollie Massenberg: ah, thanks
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: each one has its own wiki or email group
Hollie Massenberg: neat.
Calvino Rabeni: Chat logs are at http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2010
Calvino Rabeni: But it is raw - not condensed like a book or essay
Calvino Rabeni: (Hollie made an unexpected exit, but then immediately checked back in IM and we said some thanks / goodbyes)
--BELL--

Solo again, Calvino is about to go into "Blog Mode" with a theme kickoff using a quote from the TSK book...

Calvino Rabeni: "All ordinary sensing and knowing can be Great Knowledge, and *so can instances of confusion or of 'not-knowing'*"

But Fox shows up right then and they discuss it instead.

Calvino Rabeni: Hello Fox
Foxtree Gorbunov: Hi Cal
Foxtree Gorbunov: what is the topic today?
Calvino Rabeni: Well, I was just discussing that with myself :)
Foxtree Gorbunov: cool
Foxtree Gorbunov: how did that work out?
Calvino Rabeni: And it was going to be "knowledge", but now that you're here, it could be anything, I suppose :)
Calvino Rabeni: A new visitor was here earlier
Foxtree Gorbunov: Knowledge...well.....that a hard one
Calvino Rabeni: Ah, maybe it's a habit to focus on the hard parts of it ?
Calvino Rabeni: Did you catch the quote I chatted out just as you were arriving?
Foxtree Gorbunov: most of it
Calvino Rabeni: On that view, knowledge is as easy as falling off a log
Foxtree Gorbunov: true, but how do you know?
Calvino Rabeni: Which is handy, because I'm a little lazy :)
Foxtree Gorbunov: That is to say, there is a lot of things to know, and you can not know it all
Foxtree Gorbunov: ever one hates a 'know it all'
Calvino Rabeni: Yes true
Calvino Rabeni: Why is that, do you suppose?
Foxtree Gorbunov: simple...it an act.
Foxtree Gorbunov: no one can know it all
Foxtree Gorbunov: If you could know it all, then you would be a god
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, if they act "as if" it seems phony
Foxtree Gorbunov: Some how, I get the feeling I am not walking with gods
Calvino Rabeni: But, also self doubt comes into the picture
Foxtree Gorbunov: that becouse we make mistakes
Calvino Rabeni: If I walked with gods, I might find out they were as confused as I - perhaps I'd be disppointed
Foxtree Gorbunov: NASA has only lost three man space ships. Even after checking and re-checking ever part of those ships.
Foxtree Gorbunov: beside gods would know things, not act like they did
Calvino Rabeni: It is an interesting story, to understand those failures
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Well I've noticed, it appears people want there to be gods and experts to hold all the knowledge that they don't feel like they can.
Calvino Rabeni: Like they don't want give up on it, but don't want to or think they can't do it themselves :)
Foxtree Gorbunov: People also make things to hold knowledge. Were talking in one of them now
Foxtree Gorbunov: the internet is nothing but knowledge
Foxtree Gorbunov: most of it, poorly thought out.
Calvino Rabeni: I think it doesn't really "hold" knowledge - I think knowledge can't be contained, it is ephemeral - just markings of language, information, that somehow remind people of knowledge, provided they can pay attention
Foxtree Gorbunov: is knowldge a living thing or just informtion in a book or wed sight?
Calvino Rabeni: Knowledge is a living thing, I believe
Foxtree Gorbunov: is knowldge good or evil?
Calvino Rabeni: What do you think (I say, stalling for time) ?
Foxtree Gorbunov: Knowledge is alive, but is like a machine. It is not alive, but it takes no side
Foxtree Gorbunov: the US made bat booms in world war two
Calvino Rabeni: Ah, I don't see it existing outside people, nor machine-like
Calvino Rabeni: but, when people believe that, then maybe it becomes evil
Foxtree Gorbunov: Machine can not run with out people
Foxtree Gorbunov: Knowledge does not run with out people
Calvino Rabeni: Well, like a stone idol, people can follow a machine rather than real knowledge
Calvino Rabeni: People shape tools, and tool shape people
Calvino Rabeni: and information is conveyed in machines
Calvino Rabeni: not knowledge
Foxtree Gorbunov: most stone idols were also shaped. to mark a date
Calvino Rabeni: And the tools do specialized things, thus tempting people to do that particular thing
Foxtree Gorbunov: the mind made the tool, the tool lead to better tools.
Calvino Rabeni: Take a gun, for instance, it has a specialized purpose, and it is debatable whether it makes a good tool for peace
Calvino Rabeni: Put it in the hands of someone who has destructive or avaricious desires, and it becomes a channel for "evil" behaviors
Foxtree Gorbunov: new guns...old guns are use for re-enacting.
Calvino Rabeni: And ideally, it would be neutral, if everyone were enlightened :)
Foxtree Gorbunov: hunting
Calvino Rabeni: But it doesn't appear to work that way
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, people don't need it any more much for that purpose
Calvino Rabeni: so it becomes an instrument of violence not for providing sustenance
Calvino Rabeni: So for these reasons, I don't belive the "tools are neutral" idea
Calvino Rabeni: And to me, information is a tool that could be misused also
--BELL--

Foxtree Gorbunov: Let's look at it this way...I hope I put this the right way....Government is an form of Knowladge. But, only govermnets go to war. The street thug is not at war, but uses weapons all the time. If we only had clubs, would every stick be evil?
Calvino Rabeni: Street thugs have gang wars
Calvino Rabeni: And it is not due to nationalism, but tribalism.
Foxtree Gorbunov: Guns don't kill people, people do.
Calvino Rabeni: I've heard that slogan but don't believe it because people and their tools are one.

Calvino Rabeni: Fox, thanks for the chat - I have a RL phone call to give my attention to.
Foxtree Gorbunov: take care
Calvino Rabeni: You too :) Bye for now
Foxtree Gorbunov: bye