2008.10.03 19:00 - "Building a future"

Adelene was the guardian of the evening and the comments are hers.

Threedee and I teleported in just a few minutes before the hour. 

Threedee Shepherd: just us animals so far ;D

Adelene Dawner: ^.^

Adelene Dawner: So did you check out my most recent blog post?

Threedee Shepherd: no, I'm not sure where it is and should get updates automatically?

Adelene Dawner: http://angelshelper81.livejournal.com/ and I have no idea if LJ does RSS or anything.

Threedee Shepherd: I'm please to so "you" advertising Major League Baseball :D

Adelene Dawner: You *don't* have an adblocker??

Avastu joined us.

Threedee Shepherd: no, I don't mind ads that are not popups

Adelene Dawner: Hi Avastu ^.^

Threedee Shepherd: Hi Avastu :)

Avastu Maruti: love to you my friends

Adelene Dawner: And to you, my friend. ^.^

Adelene Dawner: (Threedee is reading my latest journal entry at http://angelshelper81.livejournal.com/)

Solobill arrived.

Adelene Dawner: Hi Solo

Threedee Shepherd: Two concise posts :)

Threedee Shepherd: Ho solo :)

Solobill Laville: Hi, everyone!

Solobill Laville smiles

Adelene Dawner: Oh, Three, another thought I had with that blog entry - the image I use with it (it feels odd calling those 'avatars' anymore), the words feel exactly the same as "be the change you wish to see in the world", to me.

Adelene Dawner: (the blog in question is at http://angelshelper81.livejournal.com/, Solo)

Solobill Laville: (ty)

Threedee Shepherd: Ade, "be the change" is one I have said many times. However, a deeper problem is I don't want to be in the world some others would like to change it to ;D

Adelene Dawner: Yes, that's one problem with the whole idea of trying to change any part of the world in the first place. (Even 'personal-range' changes affect others...)

Threedee Shepherd: However, given that ANY you do becomes part of the whole, giving thought to what you do is important

Adelene Dawner: ...if you have a particular future in mind, yes... which has its own problems...

Adelene Dawner: This reminds me of a newspaper article I read today.

Threedee Shepherd: I suggest that my ethics and values are an inseparable context from an implicit vision of the future

Adelene Dawner: ...English, Three?

Threedee Shepherd: I act on the future implicitly because of my NOW values

Solobill Laville: hmmm

Adelene Dawner: Yes, *which* future you're trying for is decided by the values you have now. My issue is whether it's even ...moral? ethical? 'right', in some sense... to try for *any* particular future at all.

Solobill Laville: What if you act explicitly on the PRESENT now without in conjunction with your values (but with out attachment) and just let the future take care of itself, Three?

Solobill Laville: (whoops. scratch "without")

Threedee Shepherd: I do not think I even want to act without implicit and explicit reference to my values, except perhaps in PaB-like explorations.

Adelene Dawner: Yes, apply your values within *now*. Nobody's arguing that at all.

Solobill Laville: Agreed :)

Threedee Shepherd: Oh, scratch without

Solobill Laville: yes, sorry

Threedee Shepherd: ok, let me try again

Solobill Laville: :)

Threedee Shepherd: I am saying that if I apply my values in the now, there are intrinsic effects that has on the fabric of Being, and thus on the future.

Adelene Dawner: Yes. There's a difference between that and trying... relevant word would be 'pushing'... for a specific future outcome.

Adelene Dawner: (e.g. Home, Family, Career...)

Threedee Shepherd: A very fine line, indeed. "wu weing" the future ^.^

Threedee Shepherd: There is another issue, for *me*, namely having aspirations and even some expectations for the future is a source of immediate pleasure (and sometimes suffering, I know)

Threedee Shepherd: *pleasure

Adelene Dawner nods. "That's important context for the discussions we've had, Three."

Adelene Dawner: Especially given that that's a trait we don't share. If you enjoy planning for the future, and it's not harming anything, it may be right-action for *you*, based on that. But that doesn't mean that it's right-action for everybody.

Threedee Shepherd: It's how the brain-body seduces me (and others) into long-term goals, at least in part.

Threedee Shepherd: I know it does not "fit" your patterns.

Solobill Laville sees Three's point

Solobill Laville: It certainly ain't easy, this world of appearances... :)

Adelene Dawner: hehehe

Solobill Laville: Recognition of that is huge, though Three, imo

Threedee Shepherd: Yes. Let me add some context. In my late teens (if not earlier) my cultural model-based expectations included eventually having a home and family, which was many years off. I behaved in certain ways in that teen NOW, to prepare for that.

Solobill Laville nods

Adelene Dawner wonders if asking 'why' would be useful... might be, actually, since that's pretty far outside her own experience.

Solobill Laville: And, if I may add, would it be fair to say that not achieving that would lead to a sense of failure, and suffering

Threedee Shepherd: agreed, but as has been said "nothing ventured, nothing gained"

Solobill Laville: I think it a natural outcome of the norms of human cultural expectations; boys dress this way, girls dress that way, etc.

Solobill Laville: But no one in our (Western) society generally warns us to not get too attached to such things, rather the opposite

Threedee Shepherd: total lack of norms ---can lead to---> chaos

Adelene Dawner chuckles at Three.

Solobill Laville: Well, and in a sense, cultures are just another level of a self-replication organism, yes?

Adelene Dawner: Too many norms doesn't seem to be a very good situation, either, from this perspective.

Threedee Shepherd: in a sense, yes

Threedee Shepherd: Aristoot-le: All things in moderation :D

Solobill Laville: :)

Solobill Laville: I'm just enjoying the miracle a little extra special tonight :)

Adelene Dawner: oh, Solo?

Solobill Laville: Yup

Solobill Laville: Dunno, primed up for some reason

Adelene Dawner: ^.^

Solobill Laville: Had a nice experience at Zazen earlier

Solobill Laville is smiling

Threedee Shepherd: I will need to leave in about 5-minutes, sorry ;D

Solobill Laville: We'll miss you, Three

Threedee Shepherd: thx :)

A new person, Silverly Lupindo, came in.

Solobill Laville: By the way, I placed an easel over by your board, if you want to place it on there

Silverly Lupindo: hello

Adelene Dawner: Hi, Silver :)

Solobill Laville: Hi, Silverly!

Solobill Laville: Please, join us!

Silverly Lupindo: thank you :D

Silverly Lupindo: how is everyone?

Solobill Laville is smiling

Solobill Laville: How are you, Silverly?

Silverly Lupindo: I am good :) just wondering around

Solobill Laville: Well, welcome!

Silverly Lupindo: thanks :D

Solobill Laville: Does anyone have one of the new-fangled notecards to give Silver?

Solobill Laville: I haven't seen one yet...

Solobill Laville: Have you been here before, Silverly?

Silverly Lupindo: no :) its my first time here :D

Solobill Laville: ok, cool

Solobill Laville: This is a group that meets up and discusses the nature of what is real

Solobill Laville: i guess is one way to put it

Silverly Lupindo: oooo :)

Solobill Laville: hehe

Solobill Laville: Didn't want to scare you away... :P

Silverly Lupindo: hehe no :)

Adelene Dawner fluffs at SL. "Please to be updating the chatbox properly, you silly machine."

Solobill Laville: Folks meet up every 6 hours or so, so there is usually someone chatting here most of the time

Solobill Laville: Here is a link to the wiki, if you're interested

Adelene Dawner: (I was not seeing what you guys were typing. I am, now. I don't have a notecard, sorry.)

Silverly Lupindo: oh great :D

Solobill Laville: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell

Adelene Dawner: Also, Silver, we do log these chats for the wiki - do you mind being recorded?

Solobill Laville: We were just discussing values, their effect on our futures, cultural expectations, you know, normal stuff like that ;)

Silverly Lupindo: no its cool with me :)

Threedee Shepherd: you are a teen and it goes like this: There is a biological imperative (instinct?) to procreate. that requires a procreative unit. that unit and its creation requires food, clothing and shelter. Etc.

Adelene Dawner: hmmm

Solobill Laville: But there is also great societal / cultural pressure pushing that as well, key point

Adelene Dawner: We've already talked some (Three and I have, anyway) about how that kind of instinct doesn't always register for me... so it seems like there's something to Threedee's point.

Solobill Laville nods at Adelene

Threedee Shepherd: Of course. But think back to our early ancestors (cave people) the culture was pretty local and basic there, and they had the same "urges"

Solobill Laville wonders if "humanity" and "culture" developed in conjunction

Solobill Laville: but, ok, I'm with ya, urges...

Threedee Shepherd: non-human apes have cultures

Adelene Dawner: So do crows.

Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm, and elephants and dolphins

Solobill Laville: Hmmmm

Adelene Dawner: (Of course, there's also pretty good evidence that crows have non-instinctive language, too, so that's only relevant to Solo's question for certain definitions of 'humanity' ^.^)

Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm

Solobill Laville: OK, let's stick with human culture, for conversation's sake then :)

Adelene Dawner: ^.^

Threedee Shepherd: I propose that "a" culture would not work, prosper or survive,, if it did not build in consistency with the underlying, innate patterns and urges mentioned earlier.

Adelene Dawner: This sounds like it's turning into a nature-vs-nurture thing, but before we jump in with that dichotomy, I'd like to point out that any society that wasn't *very* compatible with ...what Three just said ^.^

Solobill Laville: Here is kind of the definition of culture I was thinking: "The set of learned beliefs, attitudes, values and behaviour that are characteristic of a particular social group or organization."

Solobill Laville: Bye Silver

Threedee Shepherd: It appears the person who wanted to "meet" with me may not call at all, if I'm lucky ;)

Solobill Laville: :)

Adelene Dawner: Solo... you seem to be trying to separate behavior into 'innate/instinctual' and 'learned/cultural'... I don't think it's feasable to divide it like that. Culture arises *from* instinctual behaviors.

Solobill Laville: No, I get your point, maybe I'm saying that it is not just biological (it's nurture too)

Adelene Dawner: The details are nurture-based, yes.

Solobill Laville: But I also think I am draggin us into the weeds, sorry

Solobill Laville: Please continue, 3D

Threedee Shepherd: Well, an aspect of what Ade and I have talked about is how one does, would, or could choose a "future life" if those imperatives and instincts are absent?

Solobill Laville: Interesting

Adelene Dawner: well, absent, muted, or otherwise irrelevant. I'm not sure *why* they're not 'kicking in' like they do for most people, but they aren't.

Threedee Shepherd: In eastern cultures you become a monk, sometimes, instead. Though for many it is not a lifelong pursuit, and they marry.

Solobill Laville nods

Adelene Dawner: ...which is also a lifestyle choice. Though, yanno, it might be a decent one for me.

Threedee Shepherd: could be, though you probably have to maove to Asia for a while at least ^.^

Solobill Laville had thought sincerely about the monkhood 20 years ago...

Threedee Shepherd: mmmm

Solobill Laville: But why all this, then?

Solobill Laville: Is there an unspoken goal in the absence of the "normal expectations"?

Threedee Shepherd: Let me diverge a bit to make a point. I am convinced each person is born with a basic temperament (nature) that is a pattern that pervades future choices, which need to fit it to be successful.

Adelene Dawner: Why all what, Solo, and... there doesn't seem to be an unspoken goal. 'Not being bored' perhaps, though I actually do tolerate boredom exceptionally well.

Threedee Shepherd: Or at least be accommodated

Solobill Laville thinks "successful" is relative and subjective to the society in charge, just a thought...

Threedee Shepherd: primates are innately "curious"

Adelene Dawner: Agreed, Three. :)

Threedee Shepherd: It is impossible to stop the inner engine that goes "I wonder...."

Stevenaia joined us, wearing some kind of flamey particle effect on

is feet.

stevenaia Michinaga is Online

Adelene Dawner: Hi, Steve

Solobill Laville: Ade: I am trying to parse out if there is an opinion amongst us that perhaps a sort of desire for self-actualization exists, apart from these "normal expectations"

stevenaia Michinaga: hello

Solobill Laville: Hi, Steve

Threedee Shepherd: Ahh, yes Solo, a good point

Threedee Shepherd: Hi Steve

Adelene Dawner: I can get behind that, in a sense.

stevenaia Michinaga: evening Three

Threedee Shepherd: In a nutshell we are discussing why do people live the lives they do, I think.

Solobill Laville: Small subject

stevenaia Michinaga: lol, glad I missed the preamble

Threedee Shepherd: Well, the real point is that many don't ask themselves that question, or ask it often enough to gain insight and "good living"

Solobill Laville: Steve, I have some Tanactin, if you need it, looks like a bad case of athlete's foot perhaps? ;)

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

Threedee Shepherd: "proper living"

Solobill Laville: Agreed Three

stevenaia Michinaga: hoping the pillows don;t catch fire if I sit down

Threedee Shepherd: I've heard of "twinkle-toes" but this....

Avastu Maruti smells something burning

stevenaia Michinaga: if it;s distracting I can put them out

Threedee Shepherd: np

Threedee Shepherd: this is PLAY as Being :)

Solobill Laville: AH, SL.. :) np with me!

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

Adelene Dawner: ^.^

stevenaia Michinaga: one of the "big picture questions I have had, related to what I love you are touching on... is after what we do has been looked at , discussed, reviewed, thought about..... is there or what is the "good "in it?

Solobill Laville: brb

Threedee Shepherd: proper action is both its own *reward* and has the best chance of proper results, I suggest

We were mostly just sitting, thinking, at this point, so Solo didn't miss anything in the few minutes he was gone. When he returned, he rezzed a fire extinguisher.

stevenaia Michinaga: wb solobill

Threedee Shepherd: cute ^.^

Solobill Laville: Had to pick this up

stevenaia Michinaga: you don;t carry that around with you?

Solobill Laville: "Safety is no accident"

stevenaia Michinaga: ...smile

Threedee Shepherd: accidents are rarely accidents ^.^

Solobill Laville: Indeed :)

Solobill Laville: Now, that's a picture

Solobill Laville sees there is still a crow culture living on the pavilion :)

Adelene Dawner: ^.^

Solobill Laville: Ok, friends, I think I am going to call it a night...

Adelene Dawner: 'night Solo ^.^

Threedee Shepherd: bye solo

Avastu Maruti: love to you my friend

Solobill Laville: :) Great to see you all!

Solobill Laville smiles at Avastu

stevenaia Michinaga: well I will post the pic I just took on the wiki once it;s up, I see solo took the fire extinguisher with him

Adelene Dawner: cool, Steve ^.^

Mongo arrived.

Threedee Shepherd: title it "Shoerenheit 451"

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Mongo

Mongo McGinnis: hi

Threedee Shepherd: Hi Mongo, sorry to leave just as you arrive. I need to go. Enjoyed the conversation, folks, goodnight :)

stevenaia Michinaga: I must go all, see you soon

Avastu Maruti: love to you my friends

Mongo McGinnis: no problem good night

Adelene Dawner: Love to you, too, Avastu, and sorry Mongo, but I need to leave as well.

Mongo McGinnis: namaste